[Mage]

(03-15-2019 04:53 AM)IronShark Wrote:  

That sums it up:

This needs a protestant added as even more pathetic then the catholic.

1.Allows women - fat lesbos to preach in churches, under heel of feminism.
2.No liturgy - just songs in spirit of modern pop/rock and other satanic influences, sermons given by men in secular business suits with no liturgical clothing.
3.Fat or soyboy.
4.No mystical experiances, no theology, no philosophy just trying to fallow Bible to letter, that ends in never ending schisms and conflicts.
5.Influences are Martin Luther, sponsored by kings to get independance from Rome, and Henry VIII who just made a new church so he could divorce and remarry, clearly false doctrines made for political reasons.
6.Generally don't fast at all. Fat and believe in prosperity gospel.

[infowarrior1]

(03-14-2019 09:15 PM)samifon Wrote:  

(03-14-2019 05:45 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

1 John 5:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This important passage is convenientantly removed in most modern Bible translations for whatever bs reasons they have, but it's the most important that sums up the nature of God. Trinity. Tri+Unity=Trinity. Trinity is simply a more convenient way to say 3 in 1. 3 distinct entities that simultaneously make up one God. Let US make man in our own image. Manifestations of Jesus Christ are throughout the old testament proving the triune nature of God.

Most Bible translations don't include that verse because it's a fabrication. It contradicts every description of God in the Bible.

https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-john-5-7-8

"At this point [1 John 5:7] the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, [No.] 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin)."

Hebrews 1:1-14

Quote:

1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say:

“You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father”?

Or again:

“I will be His Father,

and He will be My Son”?

6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

7Now about the angels He says:

“He makes His angels winds,

His servants flames of fire.”

8
9You have loved righteousness

and hated wickedness;

therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

10And:

“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

11They will perish, but You remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed;

but You remain the same,

and Your years will never end.”

13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:

“Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet” ?

14Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

[PainPositive]

(03-14-2019 05:45 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

1 John 5:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This important passage is convenientantly removed in most modern Bible translations for whatever bs reasons they have, but it's the most important that sums up the nature of God. Trinity. Tri+Unity=Trinity. Trinity is simply a more convenient way to say 3 in 1. 3 distinct entities that simultaneously make up one God. Let US make man in our own image. Manifestations of Jesus Christ are throughout the old testament proving the triune nature of God.

As far as orthodox Christianity, well, it's works salvation as much as they try and bait and switch you. Which ultimately makes it no better than Romanism, Islam, Mormonism, or any of the Catholic light Protestant denominations. "Yes it's salvation by faith, but...". No buts. Once saved always saved. Its not a process. Jesus did the work. You accept. And it's your gift for eternity. You will go to heaven no matter what you've done, will do or who you are. Otherwise God is a liar, and God cannot lie.

John 5:24.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All present tense.

Watch this. As usual with most so called priests not a single reference to the Bible. So much for their doctorates in divinity lol. Instead following man made traditions and his own theories. At first it sounds like you have assurance of salvation, but there's a catch. Listen.

Mark 7
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Luke 20:46
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;

This is the reason they are so evil. They ignore "the Word'.

Ask a priest "How do I get to heaven?" If he can't answer in under 10 seconds with one of dozens of versers then he's a fraud. Amazing all that schooling and any 10 year old who reads the bible can tell you more truth than a priest can.

[the.king]

My favourite hymn for Virgin Mary. Strongly associated with Constantinople, Hayia Sofia and Byzantine empire.

By a Greek female children chorus:

[Spectrumwalker]

@Mage

For your first question. No. The Bible based off the Textus Receptus manuscripts are available to all people in all languages. In English it's the KJV. Not the Catholic westcott and hort occult Bibles. I think I've talked about this with you before once upon a time. It was either you or Beast. I honestly can't remember. In fact someone said just because they can read some language, either Greek or Hebrew that only they have the authority to understand some scripture. Just like some Muslim would say. For some reason I believe it was you, so not sure what you're getting at. If it wasn't you, pardon me. And yes I do I have opinions about every religion including your tree worshipping fairytale paganism.

The Gospel is for all, regardless of your language. At the tower of Babel God confounded the languages. It wouldn't make any sense to have put his word exclusively in one language like Muslims claim about the Quran and Arabic. Man cannot live by bread alone, but by every Word of God. Somewhere somehow there's got to be an every word message.

And no I won't counter any more aguments from you because I'm familiar with your style and how bent out of shape you get with your petty insults and attitude which I'm not down for. So that's it between me and you here. If you want to discuss, send me a pm but leave the name calling at the door and I'll get back to you when I have time. If anyone else wants to talk about whatever on the thread (except mage and his low insults) or by pm too that's cool. I may be a bit of a prodigal son but this stuffs still important to me and I enjoy sharing. I don't want to derail the thread to much so I suppose we'll keep it in the confines of orthodoxy.

Oh and by the way Mage...I'm not a Protestant either.

[Mage]

^
@ Spectrumwalker
My first question was a rhetorical one.

Obviously not going to pm you, I am interested in open forum discussions where lots of minds and can participate and many opinions can be viewed.

It's sad that when evading from argumented discussion you must do so with a barrage of ad hominems.

If you are not a protestant then why do you defend the idea of "Once saved always saved." Who else believes that? Surely not Catholics and not the Orthodox. What is your (I bet protestant) denomination exactly?

It seems you hate me simply for my Pagan opinion. Why? What wrong have Pagans caused you? Did your pastor told you we are all Satanists? Are you on a crusade?

[samifon]

(03-15-2019 05:09 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Hebrews 1:1-14

Quote:

1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say:

“You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father”?

Or again:

“I will be His Father,

and He will be My Son”?

6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

7Now about the angels He says:

“He makes His angels winds,

His servants flames of fire.”

8
9You have loved righteousness

and hated wickedness;

therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

10And:

“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

11They will perish, but You remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed;

but You remain the same,

and Your years will never end.”

13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:

“Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet” ?

14Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Psalm 45 6:7

Your throne, O God,[a] will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

The exact same wording used in 1 Hebrews 9 is used here. The initial use of "God" refers to the King of Israel, just like England uses the title of "Lord" to denote someone of importance, and the God of the King is GOD.

Likewise, Jesus is not God as we understand God, but simply an important person here to carry out God's will.

I should also add that there are no lowercase letters in Hebrew, so that's why "God" is capitalized in both instances.

[IronShark]

(03-15-2019 05:02 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 04:53 AM)IronShark Wrote:  

That sums it up:

This needs a protestant added as even more pathetic then the catholic.

1.Allows women - fat lesbos to preach in churches, under heel of feminism.
2.No liturgy - just songs in spirit of modern pop/rock and other satanic influences, sermons given by men in secular business suits with no liturgical clothing.
3.Fat or soyboy.
4.No mystical experiances, no theology, no philosophy just trying to fallow Bible to letter, that ends in never ending schisms and conflicts.
5.Influences are Martin Luther, sponsored by kings to get independance from Rome, and Henry VIII who just made a new church so he could divorce and remarry, clearly false doctrines made for political reasons.
6.Generally don't fast at all. Fat and believe in prosperity gospel.

People might find it difficult to imagine. But Orthodox Christians fast roughly half of the year. Greek Orthodox Church has stricter fasting rules than Russian Orthodox Church. But in term of the duration, they both are the same.

[Samseau]

(03-14-2019 05:45 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

As far as orthodox Christianity, well, it's works salvation as much as they try and bait and switch you. Which ultimately makes it no better than Romanism, Islam, Mormonism, or any of the Catholic light Protestant denominations. "Yes it's salvation by faith, but...". No buts. Once saved always saved. Its not a process. Jesus did the work. You accept. And it's your gift for eternity. You will go to heaven no matter what you've done, will do or who you are. Otherwise God is a liar, and God cannot lie.

John 5:24.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Have you ever read the Bible bro?

Matthew 22:36

"36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Obviously if you've heard his word then you know going to heaven is based on following God's laws.

If you do not follow God's laws, then you aren't 'always saved.' Someone who sins after hearing the word of Christ, did not actually hear anything nor accepted Christ into his heart.

Orthodox Christianity is the only Church that teaches this, to my knowledge. Heartbreaking as it is, most "Christians" cannot even quote the most fundamental sentence of the Bible.

Anyone who claims they are teaching the Bible but doesn't quote the Book of Matthew almost never has any idea of what Christ was about.

[infowarrior1]

(03-15-2019 01:43 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(03-14-2019 05:45 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

As far as orthodox Christianity, well, it's works salvation as much as they try and bait and switch you. Which ultimately makes it no better than Romanism, Islam, Mormonism, or any of the Catholic light Protestant denominations. "Yes it's salvation by faith, but...". No buts. Once saved always saved. Its not a process. Jesus did the work. You accept. And it's your gift for eternity. You will go to heaven no matter what you've done, will do or who you are. Otherwise God is a liar, and God cannot lie.

John 5:24.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Have you ever read the Bible bro?

Matthew 22:36

"36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Obviously if you've heard his word then you know going to heaven is based on following God's laws.

If you do not follow God's laws, then you aren't 'always saved.' [b]Someone who sins after hearing the word of Christ, did not actually hear anything nor accepted Christ into his heart.

Orthodox Christianity is the only Church that teaches this, to my knowledge. Heartbreaking as it is, most "Christians" cannot even quote the most fundamental sentence of the Bible.

Anyone who claims they are teaching the Bible but doesn't quote the Book of Matthew almost never has any idea of what Christ was about.

I think that's an error. Christians are not sinless. But I think you meant that Christians do not willfully sin without regret after their spiritual rebirth.

God's discipline would occur to that individual alongside the work of the holy spirit which will change his/her character to be more and more Christlike through sanctification.

[infowarrior1]

(03-15-2019 11:16 AM)samifon Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 05:09 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Hebrews 1:1-14

Quote:

1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say:

“You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father”?

Or again:

“I will be His Father,

and He will be My Son”?

6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all God’s angels worship Him.”

7Now about the angels He says:

“He makes His angels winds,

His servants flames of fire.”

8
9You have loved righteousness

and hated wickedness;

therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

10And:

“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

11They will perish, but You remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed;

but You remain the same,

and Your years will never end.”

13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:

“Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet” ?

14Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Psalm 45 6:7

Your throne, O God,[a] will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

The exact same wording used in 1 Hebrews 9 is used here. The initial use of "God" refers to the King of Israel, just like England uses the title of "Lord" to denote someone of importance, and the God of the King is GOD.

Likewise, Jesus is not God as we understand God, but simply an important person here to carry out God's will.

I should also add that there are no lowercase letters in Hebrew, so that's why "God" is capitalized in both instances.

That understanding is utterly faulty considering that John's Gospel opens with the fact that Jesus is the Word and the Word was God and with God.

Do Angels worship anyone other than God? Because if they worship a creature they are certainly committing idolatry and no different than the fallen angels.


Or when Jesus declare his preexistence prior to Abraham in John's Gospel: "Before Abraham was I AM"

[nek]

I hope all you Christians are breeding in large numbers....

[NoMoreTO]

Christians who are not fully committed to a specific denomination are always curious about other denominations. As a non practicing Catholic who is a little disenchanted with the current state. I am looking right now into 3 options:
(1) Trad Catholicism : Latin Masses / Pre Vatican 2 Old school Catholics. This would be the 'stay' option
(2) Bible believing Baptists
(3) Orthodox

The Bible believing Baptists argue that by reading the bible, we can basically serve and worship in the same way as an original Christian who is being preached to in ephesians, phillipians, romans, etc. I agree with much of this, and that many things seem to be changed when Christianity was adopted by the Romans and mixed with their religion. Also, we can look at the sabbath, which is no "Sunday"? Funny to read up on that and how it happened. On the downside, they also have to remake how to celebrate God. The method of service is essentially brand new, sometimes just a preacher speaking, and in many cases there is zero tradition, sacrament

Orthodox on the other hand seems to have a strong ability to simply preserve traditions generationally with zero change whatsoever. This is because they do not have a pope since the great schism. So you are attending mass and following guidance in the same way that people did in ancient Roman times. A bible believing Baptist would say that even this was subverted, and the difficult thing is they have a point. I did go to a good Friday mass once with a Russian girl and enjoyed it. We didn't stay the whole time, it was 4 hours, entirely ceremonial.

So while I think the Baptists focus on understanding the bible is admirable, I think that the Orthodox value on tradition and ceremony has a spiritual element to it that should not be under estimated.

[infowarrior1]

(03-15-2019 09:28 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

Christians who are not fully committed to a specific denomination are always curious about other denominations. As a non practicing Catholic who is a little disenchanted with the current state. I am looking right now into 3 options:
(1) Trad Catholicism : Latin Masses / Pre Vatican 2 Old school Catholics. This would be the 'stay' option
(2) Bible believing Baptists
(3) Orthodox

The Bible believing Baptists argue that by reading the bible, we can basically serve and worship in the same way as an original Christian who is being preached to in ephesians, phillipians, romans, etc. I agree with much of this, and that many things seem to be changed when Christianity was adopted by the Romans and mixed with their religion. Also, we can look at the sabbath, which is no "Sunday"? Funny to read up on that and how it happened. On the downside, they also have to remake how to celebrate God. The method of service is essentially brand new, sometimes just a preacher speaking, and in many cases there is zero tradition, sacrament

Orthodox on the other hand seems to have a strong ability to simply preserve traditions generationally with zero change whatsoever. This is because they do not have a pope since the great schism. So you are attending mass and following guidance in the same way that people did in ancient Roman times. A bible believing Baptist would say that even this was subverted, and the difficult thing is they have a point. I did go to a good Friday mass once with a Russian girl and enjoyed it. We didn't stay the whole time, it was 4 hours, entirely ceremonial.

So while I think the Baptists focus on understanding the bible is admirable, I think that the Orthodox value on tradition and ceremony has a spiritual element to it that should not be under estimated.

I think Baptists and a lot of the Protestants did throw out a lot of the baby with the bathwater. Architecturally and liturgically.

[Spectrumwalker]

(03-15-2019 01:43 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Have you ever read the Bible bro?

Samseau. Welcome back. I'll write up a rebuttle soon. I'm on my last couple of days vacation and have some farewells to make and things to do. Don't want to rush it. I suppose you've given me something to do at 30,000 feet.

[NoMoreTO]

(03-15-2019 10:20 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 09:28 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

….
So while I think the Baptists focus on understanding the bible is admirable, I think that the Orthodox value on tradition and ceremony has a spiritual element to it that should not be under estimated.

I think Baptists and a lot of the Protestants did throw out a lot of the baby with the bathwater. Architecturally and liturgically.

Agree. I do love myself a beautiful church with great Architecture and stain glass windows. It says something positive that churches were the most beautiful buildings constructed. A protestant can go to church at a community centre or any building, which is fine, but kind of brings me down.

The liturgical concept feels very normal to me, but I am not sure we can ever know if this is 'how' a Christian is supposed to worship.
The idea of people participating in an act such as palm sunday that represents something , or burning of incense, I find this fine. Some protestants think it is idol stuff, but I feel that is a little extreme.

On the other hand, I do feel that there is sometimes a history of the clergy not wanting or encouraging laymen to understand the bible. This is one thing that some protestants do well, they explain the bible as they preach, and encourage people to read the words.

[Easy_C]

The anti-Catholic brainwashing is strong here.

If you're going to attack at the Church ( and there is plenty to pick at, because they're not in a great place right now under Francis's leadership) you could do better than to recite the talking points of Christian Zionists like Jack Chick.

[NoMoreTO]

(03-15-2019 11:18 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

The anti-Catholic brainwashing is strong here.

If you're going to attack at the Church ( and there is plenty to pick at, because they're not in a great place right now under Francis's leadership) you could do better than to recite the talking points of Christian Zionists like Jack Chick.

What is the brainwashing? I've never seen one this Jack Chick guys cartoons in my life.

[Samseau]

Another thing about Orthodox Christianity:

All of the rituals are packed with symbolism and meaning. Every position of the priest, each scent used, the shape and numbers of the candles, the words of the hymns, the clothing and attire of the clergy, the figures the Priests and Bishops make with their hands, and even when the priest places emphasis on certain words when reading from the Bible - ALL of it is deliberate and has been crafted over 1900 years, with every part of each ritual in reference to scripture or the life of a saint.

It may look like a boring procession, but once you understand why the details are arranged in the order they are, you will see that the rituals are all designed to remind the viewer about specific parts of the gospel or honor Christ or a saint.

You can literally spend hundreds of hours learning how the rituals were constructed over the centuries and the meanings behind everything done.

The rituals are a huge part of what binds the Orthodox service through the centuries and gives faith to the laity that they are doing the same tradition and worship as has been done since the days the Apostles walked the earth.


EDIT:

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!

[Samseau]

(03-15-2019 10:28 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 01:43 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Have you ever read the Bible bro?

Samseau. Welcome back. I'll write up a rebuttle soon. I'm on my last couple of days vacation and have some farewells to make and things to do. Don't want to rush it. I suppose you've given me something to do at 30,000 feet.

No problem bro. Take your time and think it through.

[infowarrior1]

(03-16-2019 06:35 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Another thing about Orthodox Christianity:

All of the rituals are packed with symbolism and meaning. Every position of the priest, each scent used, the shape and numbers of the candles, the words of the hymns, the clothing and attire of the clergy, the figures the Priests and Bishops make with their hands, and even when the priest places emphasis on certain words when reading from the Bible - ALL of it is deliberate and has been crafted over 1900 years, with every part of each ritual in reference to scripture or the life of a saint.

It may look like a boring procession, but once you understand why the details are arranged in the order they are, you will see that the rituals are all designed to remind the viewer about specific parts of the gospel or honor Christ or a saint.

You can literally spend hundreds of hours learning how the rituals were constructed over the centuries and the meanings behind everything done.

The rituals are a huge part of what binds the Orthodox service through the centuries and gives faith to the laity that they are doing the same tradition and worship as has been done since the days the Apostles walked the earth.


EDIT:

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!

Perhaps. Although I still do find problems with Orthodox theology that they share in common with Catholicism.


Marian Doctrines. And others. Although I find the concept of Energy-essence distinction interesting.

I would wonder how the Reformation would have turned out differently if the Reformed were as familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy as Roman Catholicism.

[Mage]

(03-16-2019 07:08 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

I would wonder how the Reformation would have turned out differently if the Reformed were as familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy as Roman Catholicism.

Would be the same. It's all politics. Really naive to think people changed their faith by emphasizing a few Bible sentences more then others due to real theological reasons. Protestants rebelled against clergy as social class. It's political and economical. They adjusted their theology accordingly to justify their actions.

[NoMoreTO]

(03-16-2019 06:35 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!

This is really interesting and is a big answer to a question I asked earlier in the thread.

Was there a moment where the mass traditions were recorded or codified by the Antiochians & Ephesians? I wonder if they worshipped differently than the Romans or early Coptics?

We know that even amongst the areas Christianity was spread directly (books of the bible), there was some drifting in approach, beliefs, and likely mass traditions. For instance, groups who were preached to would end up 200 years down the road having different beliefs and on worship and divinity. This is when the Council of Nicea came into place in 325AD.

I was just looking into council of nicea online, and we can see very quickly from Wikipedia that liturgical methods including the practice of standing during liturgy were discussed. So this method of worship is shown to be being used in very early times.

[Thersites]

(03-15-2019 10:20 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

I think Baptists and a lot of the Protestants did throw out a lot of the baby with the bathwater. Architecturally and liturgically.

Its one things I hate about Baptist churches with modern architecture. There is no sense of grandeur in the church or soul in such place for me. You post reminds me of the infamous line of "...meek shall inherit the earth", as prime example of lost of liturgically value for many churches in the US. Failing to understand the meek in English does not mean the same word it translate from Greek, praus. The proper translation is demonstrating power without undue harshness. Which is lost to many pastors due today, as Christians are taught to be passive and weak instead of strong and discipline.

(03-16-2019 06:35 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Another thing about Orthodox Christianity:

All of the rituals are packed with symbolism and meaning. Every position of the priest, each scent used, the shape and numbers of the candles, the words of the hymns, the clothing and attire of the clergy, the figures the Priests and Bishops make with their hands, and even when the priest places emphasis on certain words when reading from the Bible - ALL of it is deliberate and has been crafted over 1900 years, with every part of each ritual in reference to scripture or the life of a saint.

It may look like a boring procession, but once you understand why the details are arranged in the order they are, you will see that the rituals are all designed to remind the viewer about specific parts of the gospel or honor Christ or a saint.

You can literally spend hundreds of hours learning how the rituals were constructed over the centuries and the meanings behind everything done.

The rituals are a huge part of what binds the Orthodox service through the centuries and gives faith to the laity that they are doing the same tradition and worship as has been done since the days the Apostles walked the earth.


EDIT:

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!

The theatrical aspect from the Greeks plays can be found in how Christians celebrate mass for example, garments of the priest, and how the congregation sings like the chorus of play. Its amazing how much Christianity has incorporated practices of different cultures in worship, depending on denomination and region. Speaking as Indian Orthodox.

[debeguiled]

(03-15-2019 01:43 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Obviously if you've heard his word then you know going to heaven is based on following God's laws.

If you do not follow God's laws, then you aren't 'always saved.' Someone who sins after hearing the word of Christ, did not actually hear anything nor accepted Christ into his heart.

Orthodox Christianity is the only Church that teaches this, to my knowledge. Heartbreaking as it is, most "Christians" cannot even quote the most fundamental sentence of the Bible.

Anyone who claims they are teaching the Bible but doesn't quote the Book of Matthew almost never has any idea of what Christ was about.

I have attended many services in Protestant and Evangelical churches and they all understand this perfectly well.

It is not accurate to say only the Orthodox denomination teaches it and the business about not quoting the Gospel of Matthew is a straw man. Protestants teach the Gospel of Matthew for God's sake.

Using your own passage from scripture, it is very obvious that what was important to Jesus was that we love God and each other.

The Orthodox way seems to have worked out all these nit picky intellectual positions to bolster their idea of themselves as the best faith of all.

I don't think Jesus gives a rat's ass whether you believe in works, or you believe in faith alone but naturally do what Jesus commands out of love for him (Which is how most Protestants/Evangelicals deal with the issue of works).

It amounts to the same thing, they are just coming at it from a different angle.

The once saved always saved types are no different from the Catholics who sin with impunity because they have the sacrament of confession.

A hypocrite is a hypocrite no matter the denomination.

The way I look at it is, Jesus is the music, and the lyrics are part of the music.

Often the Orthodox commentators that I hear online seem to be people who don't hear the music, they only know the words and appear to think that is all there is.

(Not looking at you, Samseau, on that last sentence. I'm thinking more of people like Jay Dyer who have endless theological points, sub-points, references to obscure church fathers, and then end up calling people who disagree with them dum dums, characters, retards, or tell them they argue like girls. They may mention the word love once in a blue moon, but all they have for dissenters is mockery and condescension.)