Quote: (03-17-2019 10:17 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:
Quote: (03-17-2019 11:36 AM)debeguiled Wrote:
True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.
This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.
I think you are deep in the weeds on this issue. This kind of nit picking legalism is my chief objection to internet Orthodox Christians.
This kind of debate does nothing to further the aims of Christianity of any kind.
You are wandering into this territory:
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Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.
The idea that the true church is internal and between God and each person is my invention is extremely odd. It is a concept called 'the body of Christ.' and is widely understood. I figured readers could make the connection on their own.
But you didn't because you are looking for something to argue about.
1 Corinthians 13:
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12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Your contentious, either/or kind of thinking is anathema to understanding the work of Jesus.
What I wrote doesn't make church meaningless. Christians pray and read scripture and try to find a good community to be a part of. That's what they do.
Yet even so, in every church, there are people who are faking it, or going through the motions, or whatever, and aren't part of the body of Christ, that is, the invisible church, and all that will be revealed eventually.
There are even Bible verses saying that people who don't even believe in Jesus or belong to a church can be part of the invisible church based on what is in their hearts.
Romans 2:14-15:
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For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
This doesn't mean Christianity is then pointless.
It just means that God knows what is in the heart and we don't.
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Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.
Dude, you know I love you but this is goofy.
Salvation is all that matters, but, judging by your line of talk, you'd rather prove your church is the true church than have salvation.
There are billions of people being saved by their faith in Jesus, and they attend Orthodox churches and Catholic ones and non denominational ones, and Evangelical ones, even the snake handling kind, or the Mega Church kind, and there even people who don't believe in Jesus who are being saved.
It is because they follow the main two rules that Samseau listed earlier, and not because they can win arguments on the internet.
Jesus is about love, which is the furthest thing from either/or thinking you could imagine.
Salvation doesn't go to the best debater.
If the Orthodox church is the right one for you or anyone else you will figure that out eventually, and that is fine.
My only point is that the issue of original church, in a worldly sense, is moot.
It is an internet issue. Just another subject to talk about.