Quote: (04-18-2018 07:47 PM)Putin Closes Wrote:  

This is why you never take girls out for dinner on first date. Never. Drinks only and if she says no, next her.

Exactly this. Only a lame would take a girl for dinner on a first date.

Why invest your money (and time) on someone you don't even know.

Furthermore, many restaurants have a layout which seats you opposite a girl, I hate this. I always want to be seated next to the girl (sitting at a 90 degree angle). Sitting next to them is much better from a body language/psychology point of view, and because of the noise and space it's a million times easier to have a conversation and some basic kino.

Also, many girls feel self-conscious eating in front of a man, might sound strange for us blokes because we don't really care, but it's true.

I don't mind buying her a coffee or share a bottle of wine on the beach... but basically I spend little money on a girl before we smash.

I have an outdoors personality and I live in an outdoors city with lots of beautiful places to explore, so I guess this may not be as suitable for everyone, but walking dates are my thing.

Then after we smash, and I get to know the girl's true character... if I see that she's a quality girl with a nice attitude etc, that's when I don't mind to spend some money, whether it be restaurants, drinks, movies, trips, whatever.

If a man really does have a high SMV, then there's no way a quality girl would decline a date such as hiking/beach/coffee/park date instead of some fancy restaurant. Simple as that.

It's not about the numerical cost. It's about the principle.

I don't mind spending money on quality things, whether it be home, clothes, car, travel, lifestyle, women etc... but I absolutely hate wasting money on low quality things.

Every time we spend our money, we are casting a vote for the type of world we want to live in. Our spending choices have tremendous political power.

Quote: (04-18-2018 06:45 PM)bgbusiness Wrote:  

The punchline is that the comments are actually displaying some hope.

• They are saying that it's not too hard and a basic manner to text back, "I had a good time, but I don't think it will work out." is what she should have done and it's not too hard.
• They also said that if it was cheap, then why didn't she pay?
• She just wanted some free meal.
• Dating scene is fucked up. (From people who are 30+)
  

Are people waking up? Can man call out all of this on social media and create a movement like #metoo?
call it #ghostedtoo or some shit. Just let it all out...

Its always nice to get emotion about "YEA THEY DID THAT TO 'THE MAN'!" (The "man" being an 'authority' over 'oppression')

After thinking about it,

• Should he have done a little more homework on her? Well this date really was the opportunity so its 40 bucks well spent. Would you rather have her do that after a year of dating? The beta in the 'oppressed' would have taken it harder emotionally.
• He should have had better game before and during the date. She saw right through it.
• She was looking for a free dinner. Proper communication would have fixed this by instead either pre-agreement to who pays (if you really want to do that ) or meet at a coffee shop/public place, spend less money on a fancy latte or something to drink and size her up that way.
• The Dating scene is screwed up. To fix that come to http://www.rooshvforum.network or ROK (and the like) and review the Newbie forum.
  

I know of someone (no, not me) who's first date was at a $150 dollar restaurant and was ghosted afterwards. You can't tell someone who wont listen what a waste of money that was. There was no way that lady was going to stay around.

He is acting emotionally to the rejection. If you feel you are going to be upset about rejection spend less money on it.

Quote: (04-18-2018 07:41 PM)Pacesetter20 Wrote:  

While I agree that this is not something I’d do, it is an overall positive that “normal” people are calling out girls (and getting positive feedback) on shit girl behavior.

This.

Simp behavior is a pattern of obsequious or over-the-top emotional behavior.

What this guy has done maybe isn't ideal, but it's hardly pedestalizing pussy. I would take a man like this, calling out female behavior (however futile that can be sometimes), versus some helpless manlet feeling a silent rage or continuing to buy, buy, buy for a revolving door of unmarriageable soon-to-be harridans.

What our protagonist has done is gone too far down the rabbit hole: he reached realization A ("Women are transactional and don't feel guilt for it") but has sped on and driven to destination B ("I will ask for the money back"). I don't see what the big deal is. He lost his temper somewhat, which we all do, and asserted himself too much.

This is a pretty good canvas to work with. He simply needs to dial down reactions like this.

I don't care who a man is, there is ALWAYS going to be a time when he feels some anger he realizes later on was pointless or not the best use of his time.

I know guys on this forum have very high standards, yet this dude is STREAKS ahead of the chums buying dinner repeatedly for the same girl over and over again, then meekly taking the whip when they ghost on or mistreat him.

When I ear the word "simp" applied to this kind of guy, I start to cringe. There are so, so, so many examples written about on this forum that take the cake for simp-like behavior.

Let's look at this critically but proportionally.

Quote: (04-19-2018 06:54 AM)ivansirko Wrote:  

Quote: (04-18-2018 06:45 PM)bgbusiness Wrote:  

The punchline is that the comments are actually displaying some hope.

• They are saying that it's not too hard and a basic manner to text back, "I had a good time, but I don't think it will work out." is what she should have done and it's not too hard.
• They also said that if it was cheap, then why didn't she pay?
• She just wanted some free meal.
• Dating scene is fucked up. (From people who are 30+)
  

Are people waking up? Can man call out all of this on social media and create a movement like #metoo?
call it #ghostedtoo or some shit. Just let it all out...

Its always nice to get emotion about "YEA THEY DID THAT TO 'THE MAN'!" (The "man" being an 'authority' over 'oppression')

After thinking about it,

• Should he have done a little more homework on her? Well this date really was the opportunity so its 40 bucks well spent. Would you rather have her do that after a year of dating? The beta in the 'oppressed' would have taken it harder emotionally.
• He should have had better game before and during the date. She saw right through it.
• She was looking for a free dinner. Proper communication would have fixed this by instead either pre-agreement to who pays (if you really want to do that ) or meet at a coffee shop/public place, spend less money on a fancy latte or something to drink and size her up that way.
• The Dating scene is screwed up. To fix that come to http://www.rooshvforum.network or ROK (and the like) and review the Newbie forum.
  

I know of someone (no, not me) who's first date was at a $150 dollar restaurant and was ghosted afterwards. You can't tell someone who wont listen what a waste of money that was. There was no way that lady was going to stay around.

He is acting emotionally to the rejection. If you feel you are going to be upset about rejection spend less money on it.

No shit...wtf?
Idk what you are trying to say man. People already know everything you said. I am saying that "normal" blue pilled people need to wake the F up and it seems like they are starting to wake up. And that's good.

I am not saying that woman should give out their pussy if I pay them $100+ for a meal. I don't expect them to and I haven't paid for a woman like that for several years.

There's a lot of overanalysis going on here.

I don't know the guy who wrote the invoice or his motives, but that is definitely something I could see myself doing, and it would not come from any strong negative emotion.

Exercising your sense of humor is cathartic. The invoice probably took 5 minutes to write and was just a creative way to express his mild annoyance at the situation.

Obviously he doesn't expect to get paid. The only reason anybody cares at all is that the fake 23-year-old put it out on social media. But then she made her accounts private, so maybe the message got through after all.

I'm calling bullshit to everyone in here that said he reacted too aggressively. Like really, is this not what we have wanted to see from normal men? Them waking up a little bit and calling out bullshit behavior from females. If every guy did this, we would run the western dating scene again, so I applaud this dude.

It is a fair criticism to say he could've read the girl better prior to the date, especially if he didn't have a lot of other options or plates, but honestly this is still a hilarious reaction post date. I think we have all gotten burned out of money via a dinner date one way or another. It happens. Granted, I never spent $150 on one dinner, but I've been burned out of at least $50 dinner dates in my rookie days, maybe more in the west.

Again, call it what you want, but I think this is the direction we should want normal men to be going in the west. Hell, I've called out women directly on date behavior before in probably a worse manner. Again, I think most of us have.

For everyone thinking that I am advocating his behavior of sending an invoice mail...
No. I am not. However, I do think that it's better than accepting the frame and moving on.
People say, "Be the bigger man.", "Grow up.", "Move on." and all these circle-jerk shit.

What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? You have a business and someone steals your inventory. Do you just say, "I am going to be bigger man." and keep moving on? Someone cuts in front of you in a line. Someone steals money from you.

Yeah, keep on being a bigger man and be taken advantage of.

Well, if everybody did that shit and just didn't react negatively, girls will just assume that it's okay and keep on doing it. Right?
Same in a relationship, you have to call the BS out, they ain't going to fix themselves. They are like little kids.

Could he have just texted, "Hey, it's cool if you don't want to meet up, but it's kinda rude to not text back."? and not send a petty invoice?
Sure, I would say so, but that's not my point. I am saying that sending invoice is better than just taking the L and moving on. Ignoring and moving on? That's more OMEGA to me. Avoiding conflicts.

But there is a point where you have to react negatively. Drop the ego. Fuck that.
We have negative emotions for a reason. Negative emotions play a huge role in our lives. It's fucking okay to be negative and be reactive at certain situations. It's not black and white.

Again, not saying what this guy did is 100% right. However, I am super happy to see this shit displayed in mainstream to change the gender dynamics.

Seems like a PR stunt and/or paid advertisement for the restaurant. There are more professional photos of the restaurant than anything in the article!

Even if this seems like a beta move it is a step in the right direction for this guy.

If he starts asking the right questions and finds the RVF he will know to buy dinner AFTER getting the bang.

Quote:Quote:

For everyone thinking that I am advocating his behavior of sending an invoice mail...
No. I am not. However, I do think that it's better than accepting the frame and moving on.
People say, "Be the bigger man.", "Grow up.", "Move on." and all these circle-jerk shit.

What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? You have a business and someone steals your inventory. Do you just say, "I am going to be bigger man." and keep moving on? Someone cuts in front of you in a line. Someone steals money from you.

What the fuck?

Nothing was stolen. If you're equating a lame ass dinner date that went nowhere to theft, you're a moron.

Quote:Quote:

Yeah, keep on being a bigger man and be taken advantage of.

Nobody made this chump reach for his wallet, he did it on his own.

Quote:Quote:

Well, if everybody did that shit and just didn't react negatively, girls will just assume that it's okay and keep on doing it. Right?
Same in a relationship, you have to call the BS out, they ain't going to fix themselves. They are like little kids.

You have no influence over anyone else's behavior. Nobody gives a fuck and you're not going to 'correct' shitty behavior in women or men so just do yourself a favor and fucking forget about it already.

Quote:Quote:

I am saying that sending invoice is better than just taking the L and moving on. Ignoring and moving on? That's more OMEGA to me. Avoiding conflicts.

Yeah, bro...making a mountain out of a molehill is totally alpha! Moving on with your life and shrugging off rejection (and that's what this is... a rejection) is for losers!

Tell me you're trolling, please.

Quote:Quote:

Again, not saying what this guy did is 100% right. However, I am super happy to see this shit displayed in mainstream to change the gender dynamics.

This is why I called you bluepill earlier in the thread. If you honestly think anyone gives a fuck about what you're saying here, you're beyond stupid.

The points you're making sound very "mens rights activist" to me. There's a reason MRA's are impotent losers...nobody is going to GIVE men a fair shake in life. We have to take it.

Stop with this infantile fantasy of the average person 'waking up' and 'realizing gender dynamics are broken' and that we 'need to correct female behavior' because you're wasting your energy, and look incredibly foolish and bitter doing it.

Nobody cares, and the sooner you learn this the better you'll sleep at night.

When will you jaded ass female acting dudes learn?

WOMEN CANNOT, AND WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. PERIOD.

You can throw all the blame in their face, show them black and white evidence, even a fucking recorded video of them doing said actions, THEY WILL NOT APOLOGIZE OR ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY.

A perfect example of it happens here, even with recorded black and white evidence: thread-68063.html


That's the female hamster and the name of the game.

You can cry like a little bitch and go completely autistic and send an invoice (which yes was funny, but the dude seen as salty and bitter).

OR you just move the fuck on, and realize that time and money is a sunk cost you ain't getting back, no matter what.

OR how about this, don't' take a bitch to dinner, just grab a fucking drink, meet for coffee or do something for free if you're worried about the money.

What are you gonna do? Invoice her for your time next? Don't be that fucking faggot.

Use your time wisely, filter wisely, sort yourself out, and go do things you enjoy, invite a chick if you want too, either way, you're doing what you want.

Fuck these omega mgtows.

Man, what's with dinner dates before you've fucked a girl. Get some drinks, or a coffee is she doesn't drink, and be on your merry way if she ghosts you over $10.

If you're sending invoices to chicks you got fleeced by after paying for a nice steak dinner, you need to 1. see above and 2. make more money.

Quote: (04-19-2018 12:41 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

WOMEN CANNOT, AND WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. PERIOD.

Kaotic said in one sentence what I was trying to say in 3 posts.

To add to his point:

WOMEN CANNOT, AND WILL NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. PERIOD....NOR WILL MEN EVER REALLY HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

The fanciful notion that either of those things will ever come to pass is the final bluepill that most redpillers still cling to.

Calling a woman out during a date is not beta, at least to me. Calling a woman out for not returning your phone calls is highly beta.

Here would be a better reaction....at least to me.

Improve your life, get some nice clothes and lift. Then date her friends.

The guy probably assumed that the snowflake would share his invoice on social media, because his sending it is sufficiently unusual that her instinctive reaction is that it will get her some attention from her extended social group if she posts it. So, she gets some negative reactions and realizes that she, in effect, just dinner-slut-shamed herself. In horror, it dawns on her that she possibly just permanently damaged her standing within her community which is why she made her account private. Nevertheless, it's too late, because the Internet never forgets.

Although women are reluctant to accept responsibility or consequences for their behavior, they are very sensitive to group embarrassment, because if they lose support or prestige within their group, or potential group, it may affect their future provisioning prospects. If the guy's goal was to trick this girl into making herself look bad in front of the public, he succeeded.

Quote: (04-19-2018 12:21 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

You have no influence over anyone else's behavior.

Really? Zero influence? Have you read the book, "Influence?"
48 Laws of Power? How to Win Friends & Influence People?
Why the fuck are we learning game then?
Why do we have positive reinforcements and punishments?
Pre-selection, social proof, status? Aren't all of this catalysts for changing one's behavior and perception towards you?
Why do we have incentives in econ? Supply and demand?
Value proposition, marketing, etc. There are so many ways you can influence one's behavior.

Did you even go to college?

Quote: (04-19-2018 12:21 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

Moving on with your life and shrugging off rejection (and that's what this is... a rejection) is for losers!

Sure, that's great that a person is persistent. However, if you keep on doing the same thing and expect different results, you are a fucking dumbass.

Just keep grinding and fail more and more. You will just be that person who failed shit ton of times.

Quote: (04-19-2018 12:21 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

If you honestly think anyone gives a fuck about what you're saying here, you're beyond stupid.

LOL, people have been liking my comments and everyone who has replied to my comment are GIVING A FUCK. You are GIVING A FUCK by replying to my comments. WTF?

Quote: (04-19-2018 12:21 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

nobody is going to GIVE men a fair shake in life. We have to take it.

Yeah, no shit. Nothing will come to you magically. Action is the foundation for success.
I am not sure if you are talking to me directly.

I probably take more action than you in real life, bro.
What do you do irl? What's your occupation?
How many hours do you work in a week?
How much action are you taking in a week?

@Rhyme or Reason.

Please reason all of my post again.
I said I do not advocate this behavior of this guy?
Are you guys seriously illiterate or wtf?

I am semi-agreeing with you, you are taking words out of context and shifting them around. If you don't give a FUCK than drop the topic and LEAVE. Hypocrite AF.

I'm going to answer this

Quote:Quote:

Really? Zero influence? Have you read the book, "Influence?"
48 Laws of Power? How to Win Friends & Influence People?

Why the fuck are we learning game then?

Why do we have positive reinforcements and punishments?

Pre-selection, social proof, status? Aren't all of this catalysts for changing one's behavior and perception towards you?

Why do we have incentives in econ? Supply and demand?

Value proposition, marketing, etc. There are so many ways you can influence one's behavior.

You can be book smart but the majority of it doesn't convert to street smarts.

Let me explain why in the case of this post.

Yes you can influence and win females (to a certain extent).

Do you really think you're going to do this to a woman on a failed first dinner date?

Ask yourself, how is an invoice going to influence her with said suitor in the real world?

She's going to laugh, scoff, take a pic of it and send it to her friends. Of course she's going to post it online and for what? To garner attention, likes, and followers.

In the end, she wins even more, he loses even more.

Positive and negative reinforcement only is effective IF YOU HAVE A HOLD ON SAID WOMAN.

This dude is not punishing a woman by sending her an invoice, in fact he's feeding her ego. WOMEN LOVE REJECTING MEN.

I think Rhyme's point is valid on moving on from rejection.

You aren't going to hook 100% of women you meet, hell I'd even wager 50%, depends on if you're on a 80, or a 20 guy.

Rhyme's point is this guy didn't learn, but then took offense to a woman who ghosted on him.

When instead it should've been a learning experience - it's clear the guy who sent the invoice basically took it to heart.

If he was really into learning he'd log shit that did work, shit that didn't, find a forum of like minded men, or ask his buddies for advice.


(THIS IS ALL BASED ON IF THIS STORY IS ACTUALLY TRUE AND NOT SOME MARKETING BS)

Quote:Quote:

this is why you never take girls out for dinner on first date. Never. Drinks only and if she says no, next her.

No shit. What man would agree to this? Take her for a beer. The man should pay, this story is all kinds of fucked up.

I don’t see how this is progress or a good sign

He labeled invoice "69" and included a $2 processing fee, and wrote Thank you for your business! at the bottom. You guys can't figure out that this was a joke? Probably took him 5 minutes to do and I imagine he got a good laugh out of it, and a bigger laugh now that it's published in this tabloid with pictures of the girl plastered all over the page and people calling her out in the comments.

If this gets your panties in a bunch and think this proves the guy is an "omega", you might want to lighten up.

This is a BAD precedent to establish. The next thing we know, pumped and dumped/no-date bang girls will start sending $350 invoices (most likely itemized) to guys for a round of "the best sex EVER!"

Quote: (04-19-2018 03:03 PM)portofmanteau Wrote:  

He labeled invoice "69" and included a $2 processing fee, and wrote Thank you for your business! at the bottom. You guys can't figure out that this was a joke? Probably took him 5 minutes to do and I imagine he got a good laugh out of it, and a bigger laugh now that it's published in this tabloid with pictures of the girl plastered all over the page and people calling her out in the comments.

If this gets your panties in a bunch and think this proves the guy is an "omega", you might want to lighten up.

I agree. Shirtlord game recognized. Even though I could never personally be bothered to do this I find it hilarious.

Quote:Quote:

Are you guys seriously illiterate or wtf?

The guy using text speak is accusing me of being illiterate.

Quote:Quote:

Really? Zero influence? Have you read the book, "Influence?"
48 Laws of Power? How to Win Friends & Influence People?

If the tone of your posts is anything to go by, I can only assume you've not utilized the lessons in those books to great affect, since you are chest-pounding on an internet forum trying to impress strangers. You must be < 19 years old.

Yeah, you can influence people's behavior sometimes, but this is the worst example possible if you're trying to illustrate that point.


And really, pointing to internet likes and responses to your post as proof of your effectiveness in the world? Laughable.

Quote:Quote:

Why do we have positive reinforcements and punishments?
Pre-selection, social proof, status? Aren't all of this catalysts for changing one's behavior and perception towards you?
Why do we have incentives in econ? Supply and demand?
Value proposition, marketing, etc. There are so many ways you can influence one's behavior.

There's a massive difference between working at achieving a desired result in one's personal and professional life and expecting the world to conform to your narrow vision of what it should look like.

The position you have taken is much closer to the latter.

I'm trying to give you a reality check that incidents like the OP do not in any way alter the plight of the average beta male dinner-buyer, or make him look like anything less than a butt hurt chump. Nobody is 'waking up' to the 'injustices' visited upon him by entitled tinderellas. Nor will they ever. Nor should they.

I get it, you're young, idealistic, and naive. You don't know how the world works. You still think the world gives a shit. I'm trying to shortcut your learning curve. Funny you mention supply and demand, yet you demonstrate with your rhetoric that you don't know much about it in the context of men and women.

Quote: (04-19-2018 02:00 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Rhyme's point is this guy didn't learn, but then took offense to a woman who ghosted on him.

My point was also that this isn't behavior that :

1. should be emulated by any man
2. is going to have ANY goddamn effect on women and the way they act

Quote: (04-19-2018 01:07 PM)C-Note Wrote:  

The guy probably assumed that the snowflake would share his invoice on social media, because his sending it is sufficiently unusual that her instinctive reaction is that it will get her some attention from her extended social group if she posts it. So, she gets some negative reactions and realizes that she, in effect, just dinner-slut-shamed herself. In horror, it dawns on her that she possibly just permanently damaged her standing within her community which is why she made her account private. Nevertheless, it's too late, because the Internet never forgets.

Although women are reluctant to accept responsibility or consequences for their behavior, they are very sensitive to group embarrassment, because if they lose support or prestige within their group, or potential group, it may affect their future provisioning prospects. If the guy's goal was to trick this girl into making herself look bad in front of the public, he succeeded.

To people saying this is beta whiny behavior, I think it all depends on the frame from which he's coming. Was he honestly hurt, and then being $40 poorer on top he's pouting and trying to get any sort of reparations he can? Sure. Beta and whiny and something that will only result in him looking weak and petty.

That's not how I saw it. I saw it merely as a way as C-Note said, to basically bait her into broadcasting to the world was a shitty classless person she it. Give her enough rope to hang herself.

Her frame seems to be "I'm so God damn spectacular, guys should be falling over themselves to buy me dinner, then, if I ignore them and generally treat them worse than I would a stray cat, they have no cause for complaint."

I think it's brilliant. He can't just shout from the roof tops what a bad person she is. People will write him off as spurned and hurt. He tricked her into broadcasting her own bad behavior to the world, and as such she got rightfully called out.

I find it funny that at no point did she question her own actions. To receive such an out of the ordinary follow up after the date meant that something was either wrong with him, or with her. Apparently the latter was never even in the cards for a second given how confidently she blasted this to the internet.

^^^^ lets all be gentlemen. And think about iif the girl is WB material.

Quote: (04-19-2018 03:27 PM)Seadog Wrote:  

That's not how I saw it. I saw it merely as a way as C-Note said, to basically bait her into broadcasting to the world was a shitty classless person she it. Give her enough rope to hang herself.

Her frame seems to be "I'm so God damn spectacular, guys should be falling over themselves to buy me dinner, then, if I ignore them and generally treat them worse than I would a stray cat, they have no cause for complaint."

I think it's brilliant. He can't just shout from the roof tops what a bad person she is. People will write him off as spurned and hurt. He tricked her into broadcasting her own bad behavior to the world, and as such she got rightfully called out.

The bolded is the only thing most readers will get out of this sensationalized hit piece.

The world doesn't see her as a shitty person, in all reality the woman owes him nothing.

We'd be saying the same thing about a guy who ghosted a girl after a hit and quit it scenario.

Quote:Quote:

I find it funny that at no point did she question her own actions. To receive such an out of the ordinary follow up after the date meant that something was either wrong with him, or with her. Apparently the latter was never even in the cards for a second given how confidently she blasted this to the internet.

Women never question their actions because they don't hamster it away.

This is my entire point.

There is no such thing as bad publicity so of course she posted it online.