[Perseus]

I have question with regard to this thread, does this racial profiling, being targeted by locals or stopped sometimes by police happen to a U.S/Canadian citizen?

I am Canadian (the only passport/citizenship i have), but of middle-eastern background, would i get a lot of hassles in Ukraine?

I was really hoping to visit or maybe study for a couple of years there

[lotharius]

I think if you are middle eastern/arab looking then you might be automatically ruled out by a significant proportion of the female population. Turkish guys do ok, but even they are ruled out my 50% of women there.

If you do go, stick to Kiev and Odessa

[Deb Auchery]

This is in the headlines today, Ex England footballer Sol Campbell warning people to stay away from Poland/Ukraine for Euro 2012

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18192375

[speakeasy]

I'm surprised to hear that it's that bad in Poland. I wasn't expecting it to be like Ukraine. I think if they start with the monkey chants and such, the black players should just walk off the damn field and boycott the games. I think Henry Thierre did this once.

[rhodey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoquZRKd...r_embedded

[Greek kamaki]

In province it is very likely to meet racist behaviour (although Russia is worse).In Kiev it is not likely.

[Deb Auchery]

Yeah I think this is pre euro2012 propoganda. But I think if anything happens it will be more likely in Poland than Ukraine. The Polish are more aggressive and also more organised that the Ukrainians

[Deb Auchery]

(05-28-2012 03:53 PM)rhodey Wrote:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoquZRKd...r_embedded

Let's face it, it is a bit weird for a country like Ukraine to be represented by a black artist. It's clear what they were trying to achieve, but I think this kind of action will only cause more problems at Euro 2012.

[Excelsior]

(05-28-2012 05:56 PM)Deb Auchery Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:53 PM)rhodey Wrote:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoquZRKd...r_embedded

Let's face it, it is a bit weird for a country like Ukraine to be represented by a black artist. It's clear what they were trying to achieve, but I think this kind of action will only cause more problems at Euro 2012.

This joker's argument is that the representation of a half-black artist (people seem to conveniently forget that a full 50% of her ancestry is Ukrainian) is going to fool the world into thinking the Ukraine is in Africa.

Are you seriously going to try and justify logic like that?

Yes, it is unusual for an artist with significant African ancestry to represent Ukraine. That does not mean it is worthy of the uproar it is getting. She sings well (even the nationalist dolt criticizing her in the video admitted that) and is popular as an artist, what good reason is there for her not to be selected? Because she's half black?

If she were half polish, Serbian or Greek, would they be just as angry? She'd be no less Ukrainian in any of those scenarios, but something tells me the reaction would be nowhere near as violent.

The fact that one's mere skin tone is enough to generate that type of reaction (enough for them prioritize it above all else and totally ignore any actual talent) says a lot about that country. The fact that there are so many idiots in that society willing to adopt the ideology, dress, and mannerisms of a movement that was hell bent on their destruction says even more.

[alphascout]

I think the idea that Ukraine is racist is largely fiction, created by common interest of both Russian Media owners and Western Media owners.

Russian media want to portray western ukraine as a bunch of racist neo-nazis in order to discredit the nationalist ukrainian movement in the west. By portraying the western part of the country as nazis, they are in effect isolating them from europe. Notice the video is RUSSIAN TV, a russian government owned TV station aimed at western audience.(propaganda channel)

Western media want to portray eastern ukraine as racist in order to justify human rights reforms and all the other financial reforms that tend to go hand in hand with human 'rights/democratic reforms, which allows western companies to operate/dominate in the Ukrainian market .

the result is what we see, on russian TV and on the internet where we see western ukraine demonized.
in the western media, we hear stories about places like donetsk being racist/anti-western.


I am sure that both sides, particularly the russian side, posts videos on places like youtube, fake news stories about neo nazis, etc... (even twisted movies, see the blockburster Tarus Bulba movie from a couple years ago funded by russia, which portrayed the Ukrainian national heros (cossacks) as extremely pro-russian and anti-western)

having spent significant amount of time in ukraine, I can firmly say that the standard western view of ukraine (and russian view) is just completely wrong. amazing place with amazing people.

[speakeasy]

(05-28-2012 06:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The fact that one's mere skin tone is enough to generate that type of reaction (enough for them prioritize it above all else and totally ignore any actual talent) says a lot about that country. The fact that there are so many idiots in that society willing to adopt the ideology, dress, and mannerisms of a movement that was hell bent on their destruction says even more.

Damn, Hitler was gonna kill off some of the world's hottest women. Crazy motherfucker.

alphascout Wrote:

having spent significant amount of time in ukraine, I can firmly say that the standard western view of ukraine (and russian view) is just completely wrong. amazing place with amazing people.

But if you are white(and I'll assume you are), you wouldn't know much from first-hand experience about Ukrainian racism. I'd rather ask some African or Indian students there what their experience is.

[Hooligan Harry]

(05-28-2012 06:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The fact that one's mere skin tone is enough to generate that type of reaction (enough for them prioritize it above all else and totally ignore any actual talent) says a lot about that country. The fact that there are so many idiots in that society willing to adopt the ideology, dress, and mannerisms of a movement that was hell bent on their destruction says even more.

Thats not quite true. The Nazi's regarded the Slavs as white, its a common misconception perpetrated regularly that the Nazis were anti Slav. They were anti Jew, and regarded communism as Jewish, but they regarded all slavs as ethnically white.

Genderplan Ost is also highly disputed, as the evidence was always very circumstantial, especially given Russian influence at the time. They had to justify much of the continued occupation of Eastern Europe and the Baltics.

The Ukrainian holocaust at the hands of the Russians killed over 3 million people, although its often forgotten.

Nationalism is not some evil. People have a right to show pride in their culture and history. The civil rights movement is only 70 years old and the belief that everyone should share its ideological principles at the expense of centuries of cultural develop is incredibly arrogant. We may not agree with them, but its not for us to force our values on them either.

[Saladin]

Didn't Ami5 go to Ukraine? I remember his field report and he did well. I didn't remember anything being said about racism.

[Vice]

(05-28-2012 07:20 PM)alphascout Wrote:  

I think the idea that Ukraine is racist is largely fiction, created by common interest of both Russian Media owners and Western Media owners.

Russian media want to portray western ukraine as a bunch of racist neo-nazis in order to discredit the nationalist ukrainian movement in the west. By portraying the western part of the country as nazis, they are in effect isolating them from europe. Notice the video is RUSSIAN TV, a russian government owned TV station aimed at western audience.(propaganda channel)

Western media want to portray eastern ukraine as racist in order to justify human rights reforms and all the other financial reforms that tend to go hand in hand with human 'rights/democratic reforms, which allows western companies to operate/dominate in the Ukrainian market .

the result is what we see, on russian TV and on the internet where we see western ukraine demonized.
in the western media, we hear stories about places like donetsk being racist/anti-western.


I am sure that both sides, particularly the russian side, posts videos on places like youtube, fake news stories about neo nazis, etc... (even twisted movies, see the blockburster Tarus Bulba movie from a couple years ago funded by russia, which portrayed the Ukrainian national heros (cossacks) as extremely pro-russian and anti-western)

having spent significant amount of time in ukraine, I can firmly say that the standard western view of ukraine (and russian view) is just completely wrong. amazing place with amazing people.

Yep, definitely fictional. Must have been staged by the BBC.

/sarcasm

[alphascout]

^ that sucks for those guys.

of course there are some racists, especially at football matches, but more than in the western europe? say in Spain? and is it enough to qualify a whole country of Ukraine as racist to the point of boycotting the games? (seems to be going on in the western media recently)

here is a whole segment documenting racism throughout europe in the drunk football fan atmosphere.

is ukraine really any more/less racist?
does it deserve a racist label anymore than say Italy? should we also boycott italy and spain?

I'm not convinced it happens at a greater frequency than in the western europe, in fact, i would say its less frequent. I went to Kyiv football game, black players on the opposing team, and did not see any racist chanting whatesover. Further, being in Ukraine for a while and seeing indonisians, asians, blacks, and an even meeting an arab medical student living there and doing just fine, as well as encountering many foreigners from abroad of various races, none of whom ran into any problems because of their race, counts for much more in my book then an isolated video of soccer hologanism,videos which you can find similar racists in other countries.

If you take videos of racist acts from any country that we rarely hear about and post them up in all news sources, that country will look racist, even if racism there is actually rare, which is what i am arguing about Ukraine.

[LifeBeginsAt40]

(05-29-2012 01:03 AM)alphascout Wrote:  

is ukraine really any more/less racist?
does it deserve a racist label anymore than say Italy? should we also boycott italy and spain?

I'm not convinced it happens at a greater frequency than in the western europe, in fact, i would say its less frequent. I went to Kyiv Dynamo game, black players on the opposing team, and did not personnally see any racist chanting. Further, being in Ukraine for a while and seeing indonisians, asians, blacks, and an even meeting an arab medical student living there and doing just fine, as well as encountering many foreigners from abroad of various races, none of whom ran into any problems because of their race, counts for much more in my book then an isolated video of soccer hologanism,videos which you can find similar racists in other countries.

If you take videos of racist acts from any country that we rarely hear about and post them up in all news sources, that country will look racist, even if racism there is actually rare, which is what i am arguing about Ukraine.

Ukraine and Russia can be perceived racist cultures but mainly because of ignorance and lack of exposure to other cultures. You are looking at countries which one generation ago barely had any foreigners entering it. With the fall of communism, the greater exposure to western culture through all sources of media and a much greater influx of tourists from different parts of the world acceptance is coming around slowly.

My ex wife for example, when she first came to Australia from Russia had a few racist things inbuilt to her. 3rd day after she arrived we were on a train traveling to the Blue Mountains just out of Sydney. The train stopped at a station called Blacktown. She noticed a few Polynesians and Africans getting off at that stop and she said to me "Is this where the niggers live". I almost fell off my seat in disbelief she said that. I explained to her you cant go around calling black people niggers and she said everyone does this in Russia. To her nigger was not a racist word but an everyday way many people use to describe a colored person.

To a westerner what she said was extremely offensive and racist, however the way she uses the word in her culture she didn't see the racial implications of it.

I wouldn't go as far as labeling Ukraine a racist country. I would say it is more culturally ignorant when dealing with other races than racist. As for the idiots that walk around with swastikas and the like, they are racists, but like the KKK in the US they are a tiny minority given way more exposure than they deserve.

[Excelsior]

(05-29-2012 12:04 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Thats not quite true. The Nazi's regarded the Slavs as white, its a common misconception perpetrated regularly that the Nazis were anti Slav. They were anti Jew, and regarded communism as Jewish, but they regarded all slavs as ethnically white.

Firstly, this statement you quoted here is quite true:

(05-28-2012 06:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The fact that there are so many idiots in that society willing to adopt the ideology, dress, and mannerisms of a movement that was hell bent on their destruction says even more.

The Nazi occupation of the Ukraine was one of the harshest of the war, and it can be argued that no group was treated more harshly save for the Roma and the Jews. Russians and Poles had it just about as bad. They were absolutely ready to destroy Ukraine and Ukrainian people, even though they were generally pro-German upon Nazi arrival.

Now, to Slavs in general. I never said that the Nazis did not regard Slavs as white-that isn't relevant to anything, as Nazis were nordicists, not white nationalists (hint: many persecuted jews were predominantly "white" by blood and ethnicity as well).

The Nazis generally regarded most Slavs as untermenschen, stated so quite clearly, and treated most of them accordingly. Again, the fact that they are white is irrelevant. Nazis were Nordicists, not pan-Europeans.

While there is no question as to whether or not the Slavs were deemed inferior by Nazis, exactly how inferior is up for debate. A handful of Slavs (particularly the Bulgarians, Slovaks, and Croats) were treated far better than others. Czechs did fairly well too, largely as a result of their manufacturing capacity. Even within less favored Slav populations, small snippets of the population were considered worthy of "Germanization", often due to their appearance (plenty of kidnapping and attempted "breeding" followed).

There is also some evidence that treatment of different Slavic groups may have varied based upon their level of resistance, though the view of Slavs as "others" and inferiors was always present, and in some cases had existed for many decades prior to the rise of the Third Reich. There is no question that it was prominent.

If you were a Ukrainian or a Russian, you were generally subjected to annihilation as soon as German troops arrived. Honestly, to have Ukrainians (or Poles or Russians) singing Nazi praises given the actions taken in their lands by Nazis is a bit mind boggling. Nazi governors openly referred to them as "racial inferiors".
Ukrainians in Poland fared better, but only because Nazis hoped to play them off against the Poles who may have received some of the worst Nazi treatment of any non-Jewish group during the war.

There are plenty of anti-slavic sentiments expressed by Nazi officials (Himmler, Rausschning, Koch, and Hitler himself, among many others) both during and after the war.

This paper does a good job explaining this interesting relationship, and is peer-reviewed with plenty of valid documentation to back it. There are plenty of books on the topic too.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/dis...id=2879480

Bottomline: Slavs were generally considered inferior. Some slavs were considered more useful than others. Poles, Russians and Ukrainians were almost as close to Jews as non-Jews could get, and may also have become targets down the road had Hitler won the war.
It is asinine to have any segment of these populations singing Nazi praises today. That they do shows an alarming level of ignorance (even regarding their own nation's history) and sheer stupidity almost beyond comprehension.

Quote:

Genderplan Ost is also highly disputed, as the evidence was always very circumstantial, especially given Russian influence at the time. They had to justify much of the continued occupation of Eastern Europe and the Baltics.

The existence of Generalplan Ost and its main prerogatives is quite clear and understood. I would say that "highly disputed" is an inaccurate characterization-while the Soviets may have exaggerated some aspects of it, there exists plenty of documentation confirming the reality. The aforementioned paper will mention plenty of sources, and there have been many more books written about the topic.

That being said, not all Slavs (ex: Slovaks) were to suffer extensively from the plan, which partially explains the differences in treatment.

Quote:

The Ukrainian holocaust at the hands of the Russians killed over 3 million people, although its often forgotten.

Ukrainians have not forgotten Russian atrocities, by and large.

Many of them do seem to have largely forgotten German ones.

Quote:

Nationalism is not some evil.

The type of treatment this woman is receiving is very much wrong, and entirely undeserved. There is no justification for it and there should be no tolerance of it.

[isis]

soccer always seem to attract the rejects, the chavs in england, asses in germany and i don't know what they are referred to in EE.

[Deb Auchery]

(05-28-2012 06:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:56 PM)Deb Auchery Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:53 PM)rhodey Wrote:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoquZRKd...r_embedded

Let's face it, it is a bit weird for a country like Ukraine to be represented by a black artist. It's clear what they were trying to achieve, but I think this kind of action will only cause more problems at Euro 2012.

This joker's argument is that the representation of a half-black artist (people seem to conveniently forget that a full 50% of her ancestry is Ukrainian) is going to fool the world into thinking the Ukraine is in Africa.

Are you seriously going to try and justify logic like that?

Yes, it is unusual for an artist with significant African ancestry to represent Ukraine. That does not mean it is worthy of the uproar it is getting. She sings well (even the nationalist dolt criticizing her in the video admitted that) and is popular as an artist, what good reason is there for her not to be selected? Because she's half black?

If she were half polish, Serbian or Greek, would they be just as angry? She'd be no less Ukrainian in any of those scenarios, but something tells me the reaction would be nowhere near as violent.

The fact that one's mere skin tone is enough to generate that type of reaction (enough for them prioritize it above all else and totally ignore any actual talent) says a lot about that country. The fact that there are so many idiots in that society willing to adopt the ideology, dress, and mannerisms of a movement that was hell bent on their destruction says even more.

Oh she's half Ukrainian? that's different then. I thought she is some med student that they pulled off the street

[Deb Auchery]

(05-29-2012 12:17 AM)torontokid Wrote:  

Didn't Ami5 go to Ukraine? I remember his field report and he did well. I didn't remember anything being said about racism.

Yeah I think he's Asian too, hope he wasn't one of the ones that was attacked!

[alphascout]

read the second part of this article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/...sfeed=true


unfortunatley, i think most people will read the title and the first part and get a bad view of Ukraine.

[Deb Auchery]

Hahaha

If this were not bad enough, on 21 May topless activists from the group Femen grabbed the championship trophy during its whistle-stop tour of Ukrainian cities; they claim the tournament will boost prostitution and the country's already booming sex industry.

(The activist Inna Shevchenko yanked off her top to reveal the words "Fuck Euro 2012". Police dragged her into a van; video shows her repeatedly screaming "Fuck Euro!")

[Hooligan Harry]

(05-29-2012 01:50 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The Nazi occupation of the Ukraine was one of the harshest of the war, and it can be argued that no group was treated more harshly save for the Roma and the Jews. Russians and Poles had it just about as bad. They were absolutely ready to destroy Ukraine and Ukrainian people, even though they were generally pro-German upon Nazi arrival.

On the contrary, that bullshit is put forward by the Russians. The reality is that the Ukrainian holocaust was the result of Stalin starving them, not German invasion. In fact, many Ukrainians fought alongside the Nazi's and Germany. It is patently untrue to suggest that Germany was responsible for the atrocities in the Ukraine, when Russian occupation of Ukraine was so severe to this day it splits the country in half. Russia was responsible for the Ukrainian holocaust, NOT GERMANY. There was an undeclared class system in the Ukraine up until not even 25 years ago!

The reason for the strong sense of nationalism is because the Ukrainians have been fighting persecution in their own country for the last 600+ years. Its a bit rich when people say that they dont understand how backward their racism is when they have been dealing with ethnic conflict and extermination at the hands of the Tsars and Turks for a very long time now, and on a scale few people anywhere on the planet could relate to.

You have never set foot in Ukraine. Please, dont turn this into another thread where you decided to lecture me on South Africa based on your web research and academic studies dude. You want to understand all perspectives? Travel more and study their history in their own backyard, not from a safe distance where you entire point of view is dished up in a neat little package that suits your worldview.

Fact is, Eastern Europe was locked down after WWII when the Iron Curtain went up. None of the Allies even really knew of even the concentration camps or the eastern front in general. Our history on the matter is provided from a Russian perspective, which was communist propaganda as much as anything else and quite often baseless.

Across his entire account of the war, even Winston Churchill never made mention of half the stuff the Russians passed off as war crimes by the time Nuremburg hit. Im not about the apologise for Nazi atrocities, but Ukrainian nationalism is a deep seated issue far more complex than you understand, and the history of Eastern Europe and Germany during the 20th is vastly more complex then the shit they serve up in our universities and on the History Channel.

Quote:

Now, to Slavs in general. I never said that the Nazis did not regard Slavs as white-that isn't relevant to anything, as Nazis were nordicists, not white nationalists (hint: many persecuted jews were predominantly "white" by blood and ethnicity as well).

The Nazis generally regarded most Slavs as untermenschen, stated so quite clearly, and treated most of them accordingly. Again, the fact that they are white is irrelevant. Nazis were Nordicists, not pan-Europeans.

Again, outright fabrications that are passed off as historical fact now. The Nazis viewed even the Balkans, including the Greeks, as white. The Russians, following the fall of Berlin, cooked up all manner of propaganda against the Reich to justify its occupation of Eastern Europe and the atrocities of its own war crimes. It raped its way across Eastern Europe once the Germans retreated to the point that the entire gene pool was shifted in only one generation.

Germans had clear definitions of ethnicity, and regarded the blonde hair, blue eyes as ideal, but they never believed that other white Europeans were inferior. That is absolute rubbish, supported by detailed documentation of eugenics as a whole by Germany. Again, two sides to it all for those who wish to understand instead of pursue an agenda.

I really have no desire to get into this with you or your textbooks again. If I could make one suggestion, its that you reserve judging anyone until such time as you taken the time to understand all perspectives. At the same time, understand that the history we are taught is not always fully representative or comprehensive in the slightest, and what you take as given fact is often nothing more than the victors account of the war at times too, or pre approved accounts of events later documented as fact.

[timmy21]

Gaitana, the Ukrainian entry for Eurovision 2012 is half Ukrainian, her mom born and raied in Kiev and her father I think is from Comoros, she has lived her entire life in Ukraine, I watched Eurovision last Saturday, she did a real good job, the winner was a Morrocan girl representing Sweden, a few years ago a guy from Belarus who was representing Norway won Eurovision, so it's not uncommon for naturalized citizens to represent a country they now reside.

[DjembaDjemba]

(05-29-2012 04:22 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:50 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The Nazi occupation of the Ukraine was one of the harshest of the war, and it can be argued that no group was treated more harshly save for the Roma and the Jews. Russians and Poles had it just about as bad. They were absolutely ready to destroy Ukraine and Ukrainian people, even though they were generally pro-German upon Nazi arrival.

On the contrary, that bullshit is put forward by the Russians. The reality is that the Ukrainian holocaust was the result of Stalin starving them, not German invasion. In fact, many Ukrainians fought alongside the Nazi's and Germany. It is patently untrue to suggest that Germany was responsible for the atrocities in the Ukraine, when Russian occupation of Ukraine was so severe to this day it splits the country in half. Russia was responsible for the Ukrainian holocaust, NOT GERMANY. There was an undeclared class system in the Ukraine up until not even 25 years ago!

The reason for the strong sense of nationalism is because the Ukrainians have been fighting persecution in their own country for the last 600+ years. Its a bit rich when people say that they dont understand how backward their racism is when they have been dealing with ethnic conflict and extermination at the hands of the Tsars and Turks for a very long time now, and on a scale few people anywhere on the planet could relate to.

You have never set foot in Ukraine. Please, dont turn this into another thread where you decided to lecture me on South Africa based on your web research and academic studies dude. You want to understand all perspectives? Travel more and study their history in their own backyard, not from a safe distance where you entire point of view is dished up in a neat little package that suits your worldview.

Fact is, Eastern Europe was locked down after WWII when the Iron Curtain went up. None of the Allies even really knew of even the concentration camps or the eastern front in general. Our history on the matter is provided from a Russian perspective, which was communist propaganda as much as anything else and quite often baseless.

Across his entire account of the war, even Winston Churchill never made mention of half the stuff the Russians passed off as war crimes by the time Nuremburg hit. Im not about the apologise for Nazi atrocities, but Ukrainian nationalism is a deep seated issue far more complex than you understand, and the history of Eastern Europe and Germany during the 20th is vastly more complex then the shit they serve up in our universities and on the History Channel.

Quote:

Now, to Slavs in general. I never said that the Nazis did not regard Slavs as white-that isn't relevant to anything, as Nazis were nordicists, not white nationalists (hint: many persecuted jews were predominantly "white" by blood and ethnicity as well).

The Nazis generally regarded most Slavs as untermenschen, stated so quite clearly, and treated most of them accordingly. Again, the fact that they are white is irrelevant. Nazis were Nordicists, not pan-Europeans.

Again, outright fabrications that are passed off as historical fact now. The Nazis viewed even the Balkans, including the Greeks, as white. The Russians, following the fall of Berlin, cooked up all manner of propaganda against the Reich to justify its occupation of Eastern Europe and the atrocities of its own war crimes. It raped its way across Eastern Europe once the Germans retreated to the point that the entire gene pool was shifted in only one generation.

Germans had clear definitions of ethnicity, and regarded the blonde hair, blue eyes as ideal, but they never believed that other white Europeans were inferior. That is absolute rubbish, supported by detailed documentation of eugenics as a whole by Germany. Again, two sides to it all for those who wish to understand instead of pursue an agenda.

I really have no desire to get into this with you or your textbooks again. If I could make one suggestion, its that you reserve judging anyone until such time as you taken the time to understand all perspectives. At the same time, understand that the history we are taught is not always fully representative or comprehensive in the slightest, and what you take as given fact is often nothing more than the victors account of the war at times too, or pre approved accounts of events later documented as fact.

My parents are mixed race South Africans we know all to well about 'being proud' of one's culture. They had to flee in the 70s because the local despots got too proud of 'their culture' and wouldn't ratify their marriage.

I'd certainly be staying away from Ukraine.

Nationalism is horseshit. It's used as an excuse to put down others and protect 'our womens'.