Quote: (05-29-2012 12:04 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:
Thats not quite true. The Nazi's regarded the Slavs as white, its a common misconception perpetrated regularly that the Nazis were anti Slav. They were anti Jew, and regarded communism as Jewish, but they regarded all slavs as ethnically white.
Firstly, this statement you quoted here is quite true:
Quote: (05-28-2012 06:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:
The fact that there are so many idiots in that society willing to adopt the ideology, dress, and mannerisms of a movement that was hell bent on their destruction says even more.
The Nazi occupation of the Ukraine was one of the harshest of the war, and it can be argued that no group was treated more harshly save for the Roma and the Jews. Russians and Poles had it just about as bad. They were absolutely ready to destroy Ukraine and Ukrainian people, even though they were generally pro-German upon Nazi arrival.
Now, to Slavs in general. I never said that the Nazis did not regard Slavs as white-that isn't relevant to anything, as Nazis were nordicists, not white nationalists (hint: many persecuted jews were predominantly "white" by blood and ethnicity as well).
The Nazis generally regarded most Slavs as untermenschen,
stated so quite clearly, and
treated most of them accordingly. Again, the fact that they are white is irrelevant. Nazis were Nordicists, not pan-Europeans.
While there is no question as to whether or not the Slavs were deemed inferior by Nazis, exactly how inferior is up for debate. A handful of Slavs (particularly the Bulgarians, Slovaks, and Croats) were treated far better than others. Czechs did fairly well too, largely as a result of their manufacturing capacity. Even within less favored Slav populations, small snippets of the population were considered worthy of "Germanization", often due to their appearance (plenty of kidnapping and attempted "breeding" followed).
There is also some evidence that treatment of different Slavic groups may have varied based upon their level of resistance, though the view of Slavs as "others" and inferiors was always present, and in some cases had existed for many decades prior to the rise of the Third Reich. There is no question that it was prominent.
If you were a Ukrainian or a Russian, you were generally subjected to annihilation as soon as German troops arrived. Honestly, to have Ukrainians (or Poles or Russians) singing Nazi praises given the actions taken in their lands by Nazis is a bit mind boggling. Nazi governors openly referred to them as "racial inferiors".
Ukrainians in Poland fared better, but only because Nazis hoped to play them off against the Poles who may have received some of the worst Nazi treatment of any non-Jewish group during the war.
There are plenty of anti-slavic sentiments expressed by Nazi officials (Himmler, Rausschning, Koch, and
Hitler himself, among many others) both during and after the war.
This paper does a good job explaining this interesting relationship, and is peer-reviewed with plenty of valid documentation to back it. There are plenty of books on the topic too.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/dis...id=2879480
Bottomline: Slavs were generally considered inferior. Some slavs were considered more useful than others. Poles, Russians and Ukrainians were almost as close to Jews as non-Jews could get, and may also have become targets down the road had Hitler won the war.
It is asinine to have any segment of these populations singing Nazi praises today. That they do shows an alarming level of ignorance (even regarding their own nation's history) and sheer stupidity almost beyond comprehension.
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Genderplan Ost is also highly disputed, as the evidence was always very circumstantial, especially given Russian influence at the time. They had to justify much of the continued occupation of Eastern Europe and the Baltics.
The existence of Generalplan Ost and its main prerogatives is quite clear and understood. I would say that "highly disputed" is an inaccurate characterization-while the Soviets may have exaggerated some aspects of it, there exists plenty of documentation confirming the reality. The aforementioned paper will mention plenty of sources, and there have been many more books written about the topic.
That being said, not all Slavs (ex: Slovaks) were to suffer extensively from the plan, which partially explains the differences in treatment.
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The Ukrainian holocaust at the hands of the Russians killed over 3 million people, although its often forgotten.
Ukrainians have not forgotten Russian atrocities, by and large.
Many of them do seem to have largely forgotten German ones.
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Nationalism is not some evil.
The type of treatment this woman is receiving is very much wrong, and entirely undeserved. There is no justification for it and there should be no tolerance of it.