Quote: (05-29-2012 04:22 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:
On the contrary, that bullshit is put forward by the Russians. The reality is that the Ukrainian holocaust was the result of Stalin starving them, not German invasion. In fact, many Ukrainians fought alongside the Nazi's and Germany. It is patently untrue to suggest that Germany was responsible for the atrocities in the Ukraine, when Russian occupation of Ukraine was so severe to this day it splits the country in half. Russia was responsible for the Ukrainian holocaust, NOT GERMANY. There was an undeclared class system in the Ukraine up until not even 25 years ago!
Russia was responsible for
the atrocities that took place in the Ukraine from 1941-1944...during which time the Germans had
completely occupied the country?
Very well then-prove it. I want hard evidence that the information presented in the links above (and in the others placed in prior posts) is false.
Studies, documents, primary sources (direct accounts from citizens who lived at the time, for example). You say I'm full of shit-I ask you to prove it. Show me (don't tell me, you've done enough of that) how the Russians were in fact the primary drivers of this phenomena.
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You have never set foot in Ukraine. Please, dont turn this into another thread where you decided to lecture me on South Africa based on your web research and academic studies dude.
The thread has fuck-all to do with SA, so why would I do that?
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You want to understand all perspectives? Travel more and study their history in their own backyard, not from a safe distance where you entire point of view is dished up in a neat little package that suits your worldview.
Ad-hominem.
My distance does not invalidate my argument, especially when I have documentation to back it up.
If you insist I'm wrong, then prove I'm wrong. Logical fallacies won't do your work for you.
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Im not about the apologise for Nazi atrocities, but Ukrainian nationalism is a deep seated issue far more complex than you understand, and the history of Eastern Europe and Germany during the 20th is vastly more complex then the shit they serve up in our universities and on the History Channel.
Then please, enlighten us. You seem quite convinced, so I'm sure you have in your possession a multitude of legitimate documents/sources with which to back up your argument. If we're all so full of crap, then show us.
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Again, outright fabrications that are passed off as historical fact now.
Prove it.
I have documentation. Show me how false that documentation is. I'm not taking your word for it.
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The Nazis viewed even the Balkans, including the Greeks, as white.
Once again, irrelevant.
Not all whites were equal in Nazi eyes.
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The Russians, following the fall of Berlin, cooked up all manner of propaganda against the Reich to justify its occupation of Eastern Europe and the atrocities of its own war crimes. It raped its way across Eastern Europe once the Germans retreated to the point that the entire gene pool was shifted in only one generation.
That is an interesting theory. I now ask you for substantiation-please show me conclusively that the information I have presented up to this point is not factual, but rather a product of Russian propaganda.
I have provided documentation to back up my viewpoint-show me why it is false, and how exactly it can be traced back to Russian sources.
And when I say "show", I do not mean tell-again, you've done enough of that already.
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Germans had clear definitions of ethnicity, and regarded the blonde hair, blue eyes as ideal, but they never believed that other white Europeans were inferior. That is absolute rubbish, supported by detailed documentation of eugenics as a whole by Germany.
We have an abundance of Nazi leaders on record speaking of the inferiority of Slavic blood. We have the commissioner of occupied Ukraine on record declaring Ukrainians to be an inferior race. We have Heinrich Himmler openly calling for the extermination of Poles. We have Hitler on record multiple times espousing the inferiority of Russians and slavs in general (both in Mein Kampf and other accounts).
I provided all of these sources to you in my last post (review them if you'd like, the links are all still there), including an excellent peer reviewed essay that collected various Nazi viewpoints on Slavs quite comprehensively.
Please show me why these sources are rubbish worthy of quick dismissal, and how these leaders were misquoted. Furthermore, please show us this "detailed documentation of eugenics as a whole" by Germany that supposedly affirms your viewpoint.
I'll wait here.
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If I could make one suggestion, its that you reserve judging anyone until such time as you taken the time to understand all perspectives.
I only take the time to understand academic/historical perspectives that are based in fact and substantiated accordingly. When your perspective joins this group, I'll respect it.
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At the same time, understand that the history we are taught is not always fully representative or comprehensive in the slightest, and what you take as given fact is often nothing more than the victors account of the war at times too, or pre approved accounts of events later documented as fact.
Once again: prove it.
Show me the real story if you're so sure mine is false. I'm anxious to see it.