[CleanSlate]

(01-05-2019 08:53 AM)Higgins Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 06:53 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

Man: “oops, transferred it to the wrong address, it’s gone”
Judge: “ok then you’re going to jail” *slams gavel*

I think it would help a lot of people to flush out the legality of this.

So do you have a professional background in law? Been through a divorce? Work in something related?

Or are we all going to post unsubstantiated opinions?

Are you a US citizen? If you are, you wouldn’t need a law degree to know that the family courts and divorce lawyers would come after men with everything they’ve got if they discovered these men were hiding assets.

Given the anti-male climate in these areas, it wouldn’t be that much of a stretch to think that men can and will be jailed if caught hiding assets, if not already.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-05-2019 08:53 AM)Higgins Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 06:53 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

Man: “oops, transferred it to the wrong address, it’s gone”
Judge: “ok then you’re going to jail” *slams gavel*

I think it would help a lot of people to flush out the legality of this.

So do you have a professional background in law? Been through a divorce? Work in something related?

Or are we all going to post unsubstantiated opinions?

You shouldn't be giving out legal advice and asking others to back up their claims.

See... Rossi vs Rossi

You also won't get away with transferring houses and other marital properties into a family members name in order to avoid splitting them up.

You need to set this stuff up before you get married.

[Higgins]

Look guys, I don't want to get into the whole structuring and asset protection argument because that's a whole thread in itself but I'll say this: A one off event of "oops I transferred 500k in crypto to the wrong address" to my knowledge prior to a divorce as worldwidetraveler points out does not in itself constitute hiding assets.

Maybe one of us who is a lawyer can chime in here? How do you prove intent to defraud in the above scenario?

Also, I would hope that most reading this thread would realize these are suggestions, not legal advice.

[Captain Gh]

(01-04-2019 02:37 PM)WonderKid666 Wrote:  

I'm no expert on the matter, but it seems like as soon as a guy gets married he's setting himself up to be cucked by her, and the courts. As soon as he signs the paper he's giving her the right to take everything he's worked hard for whenever she feels like it. If you don't have tight ltr game, the ability to keep it fresh, and strong frame, hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade... then more than likely you will be divorce raped. There is no way a blue pill beta can pull it off, and from what I read here MM was a blue pill beta. R.I.P MM.

Even though you're absolutely right... even the most Alpha Male on the block can get it too! It's funny because my most "frat-jock" good looking friend is on his way to marriage. Even though it's fraught with danger in 2019... it is still the most healthy thing for a man to do once he's ready. I don't know if it's the norm... but in my case I'm not ready because I don't have my shit in order!

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-05-2019 10:19 AM)Higgins Wrote:  

Look guys, I don't want to get into the whole structuring and asset protection argument because that's a whole thread in itself but I'll say this: A one off event of "oops I transferred 500k in crypto to the wrong address" to my knowledge prior to a divorce as worldwidetraveler points out does not in itself constitute hiding assets.

Maybe one of us who is a lawyer can chime in here? How do you prove intent to defraud in the above scenario?

Also, I would hope that most reading this thread would realize these are suggestions, not legal advice.

They won't look at it as fraud if you listed the crypto in your divorce. But then you wouldn't be doing that if you are going with this Oops scenario.

If the courts find out about the crypto and the transfer then you will most likely have to cough up half of the value. Or you may cough up the whole amount like what happened in the case I posted earlier if the judge sees you trying to defraud the court. Transferring assets right before a divorce is going to be looked at as a fraudulent transfer and the judge will include the value when splitting up the assets.

If you don't pay you may go to jail.

I don't know what else to tell you besides not recommending this to anyone getting a divorce.

[Hammerhead]

(01-05-2019 02:46 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

In reading his blogs early on, I immediately noticed that he's in an equality marriage, from the way he wrote about his wife, and from the way she wrote about herself and him. Another giveaway was that despite their early retirement and being wealthy, they only have one child. I had a feeling that something like this would happen down the track. There is only one end for all equality marriages: divorce. The core of a successful marriage is not frugality, MMM or FIRE, it is following biblical roles: leader for man, helpmeet for woman or man leads, wife submits. You can never have a successful marriage when the man and the woman are "coparents" or "partners", equal in everything.

I suspect this is more the reason than the frugality. He wasn't extremely frugal, just smart about things. Have recent divorce statistics been released? Nearly all of my friends in their 30s and 40s have been divorced now, though some are on their 2nd marriages already. I suspect it's higher than 50% now just based on my personal experience. I could see this information being suppressed.

If I do get married, I will be pushing for a "Private Marriage" in a state that doesn't recognize common law marriage.

[Higgins]

(01-05-2019 10:44 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

They won't look at it as fraud if you listed the crypto in your divorce. But then you wouldn't be doing that if you are going with this Oops scenario.

If the courts find out about the crypto and the transfer then you will most likely have to cough up half of the value. Or you may cough up the whole amount like what happened in the case I posted earlier if the judge sees you trying to defraud the court. Transferring assets right before a divorce is going to be looked at as a fraudulent transfer and the judge will include the value when splitting up the assets.

If you don't pay you may go to jail.

I don't know what else to tell you besides not recommending this to anyone getting a divorce.

Why would you tell a court about crypto you have no ostensible control over? Crypto is not a house, the blockchain may be public but it's certainly not transparent title records.

Before a court says you hid assets in crypto, the court has to first prove the transfer was fraudulent. Even right before a divorce, how would the judge prove it? Maybe it's a quirk of US law but I don't believe even in divorce the judge has overriding rights to determine what is or isn't. Specifically to crypto, it's not so clear cut. Maybe this guy did in fact send it to the wrong address. Even if the courts deem something like negligence of family assets, and that you are liable for such negligence, which is plausible but a stretch, you wouldn't be paying whatever amount up front, because you don't have control of the crypto asset right?

I'll agree with you on one thing, doing any type of asset protection immediately prior to an event(divorce or etc), during or after is utterly pointless. Asset protection is done well ahead of events. Perhaps we were talking about the same thing after all.

[SamuelBRoberts]

"Your honor, I bought 500k in gold, and then I took it out on my boat, and the boat sank and now the money's gone forever!"

Good lord. Judges' aren't idiots, and they don't like people who are obviously trying to pull fast ones on them.
You're not NEARLY as clever as you think you are.

[Higgins]

(01-05-2019 12:48 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

"Your honor, I bought 500k in gold, and then I took it out on my boat, and the boat sank and now the money's gone forever!"

Good lord. Judges' aren't idiots, and they don't like people who are obviously trying to pull fast ones on them.
You're not NEARLY as clever as you think you are.

Judges' aren't idiots, but they do have to try to be impartial or our entire legal system is a sham. They have to give the defendant the benefit of the doubt in the absence of concrete proof.

For your scenario 2 years prior to a divorce, no problem. 2 weeks before, different story. In fact I say this in the post before yours that timing is everything. You are capable of reading yes?

[doc holliday]

So Higgins, how do you buy such a lump sum of XMR without it being traceable via discovery during a divorce? Sometimes they will go back 5 years to check for suspicious transactions.

[Hypugamy]

(01-04-2019 09:35 AM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

Let's face it, for all the talk of location independence being the dream for a lot of us, working 30 hours a week or less while living anywhere in the world, every woman with a pussy (it's 2019, necessary caveat) is location independent from the day she turns 18, with absolutely no effort needed on her end.

Got vagina, will travel. The female version of the location independence men can only earn through years of blood, sweat, toil, and tears.

I am in Canada, and we have a very spread out population, with a small handful of major cities that everyone wants to live in. These cities feature high cost of living, extremely competitive job markets, sky-rocketing real estate prices, and few opportunities for high-paying traditional masculine jobs. These are where women flock to once they are done high school or at least done university, creating a surplus of attractive women (but still not enough for every man) in the exciting big cities, where it is very difficult and competitive to get a good job as a man. I'm one of the guys who has a good job, but I'm stuck in a small city where I don't know anyone because the job market is too competitive for me to get a similar job in a sexy big city where all the pussy is. A lot of men I know are in this predicament.

(01-04-2019 10:03 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

∆Spaniard is based and redpilled∆

I am not as black pilled about the situation. I think men will adapt in the next 5-10 years thanks to being able to hide their wealth better thanks to Bitcoin or other privacy coins like Monero. Offshoring money has always been a thing (caymen islands, Sweden, Panama, etc) but it is already accessible to the average man with crypto.

They will get married abroad where the laws are more favorable. They won't tell their wife about the fortune in crypto they have.

Sure, you will never hear about the guys that beat the system. Sometimes you hear about successful men boast about it and if you make enough noise the system will comb through your past and come after you with everything it has (ie Martin shkreli, many other examples).

Men are smart, we compare notes. Look at the 4chan and even some subreddits talk about women, marriage, redpill concepts. Even incels and Mgtows caught on. It will be the same about squirrelling wealth in a way that cannot be confiscated. The omegas and betas will be first to catch on, many alphas will get wrecked in the mean time.

I hate to be a pessimist, but the legal and accounting professions are dominated by women, and with all the forensic accounting out there it will only be harder to hide wealth. It's only a matter of time for a gynocentric society to catch up to these advances, and with 80% of men being blue pilled, I imagine they will be working hard to achieve this in order to please the women of the day.

[Captain Gh]

   

Picture of the Previous Ms of the far right! Listen I don't fallow this guy closely... but discovered him through an interview he did with CBS I believe (not sure) and man do I have respect for this man. However his extreme minimalist views got me scared for his future though! Homely women seems to be the ones who thrive on the minimalist wagon for years & years as wife & Homemakers! Not necessarily ugly... but just homely, simple & happy women! And nothing's wrong with that... however I would've bet... even before his divorce, that she wouldn't stay a minimalist for the long haul! No way this woman's a homely one!

I'm sure she's a Great Woman (Looks like it)... but she's got the look of a Young Professional who wants to be Seen out looking fabulous... while have Mondays through Sundays fully booked with fun fun prestige driven activities. For most couples, this would be manageable... but not in minimalist land! It's also understandable for him to move closely to keep a bond with his children... but how will he react when she starts bringing dudes in the house on the regular? Hopefully one of his minimalist friends can peep some Game into him to have a bit of fun

[redbeard]

I bet if he popped a few more babies into her, they'd still be married. Probably outside his budget though.

[[email protected]]

(01-05-2019 02:23 PM)Hypugamy Wrote:  

(01-04-2019 09:35 AM)Spaniard88 Wrote:  

Let's face it, for all the talk of location independence being the dream for a lot of us, working 30 hours a week or less while living anywhere in the world, every woman with a pussy (it's 2019, necessary caveat) is location independent from the day she turns 18, with absolutely no effort needed on her end.

Got vagina, will travel. The female version of the location independence men can only earn through years of blood, sweat, toil, and tears.

I am in Canada, and we have a very spread out population, with a small handful of major cities that everyone wants to live in. These cities feature high cost of living, extremely competitive job markets, sky-rocketing real estate prices, and few opportunities for high-paying traditional masculine jobs. These are where women flock to once they are done high school or at least done university, creating a surplus of attractive women (but still not enough for every man) in the exciting big cities, where it is very difficult and competitive to get a good job as a man. I'm one of the guys who has a good job, but I'm stuck in a small city where I don't know anyone because the job market is too competitive for me to get a similar job in a sexy big city where all the pussy is. A lot of men I know are in this predicament.

(01-04-2019 10:03 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

∆Spaniard is based and redpilled∆

I am not as black pilled about the situation. I think men will adapt in the next 5-10 years thanks to being able to hide their wealth better thanks to Bitcoin or other privacy coins like Monero. Offshoring money has always been a thing (caymen islands, Sweden, Panama, etc) but it is already accessible to the average man with crypto.

They will get married abroad where the laws are more favorable. They won't tell their wife about the fortune in crypto they have.

Sure, you will never hear about the guys that beat the system. Sometimes you hear about successful men boast about it and if you make enough noise the system will comb through your past and come after you with everything it has (ie Martin shkreli, many other examples).

Men are smart, we compare notes. Look at the 4chan and even some subreddits talk about women, marriage, redpill concepts. Even incels and Mgtows caught on. It will be the same about squirrelling wealth in a way that cannot be confiscated. The omegas and betas will be first to catch on, many alphas will get wrecked in the mean time.

I hate to be a pessimist, but the legal and accounting professions are dominated by women, and with all the forensic accounting out there it will only be harder to hide wealth. It's only a matter of time for a gynocentric society to catch up to these advances, and with 80% of men being blue pilled, I imagine they will be working hard to achieve this in order to please the women of the day.

I've been in the crypto space for almost 2 years and I can tell you these 'professionals' are looking hopeless, moreso if you believe women will be any part of a take down for hard tech like crypto - something that has been tamper proof for 10 years and counting. There's just no hope of 'catching up' to this like with nuclear weapons or encrypted chat. It's just one of those things that will stick around forever and people will have to learn to live with.

I'm not saying men aren't going to get busted with this. Most men aren't going to have Batman level prep going into a marriage, they will continue to get wrecked but not because of the tech, just being a complete dumbass like telling your wife about your assets, leaving verifiable records in your home country, etc.

[Penta Sahi]

(01-05-2019 02:27 PM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

Picture of the Previous Ms of the far right!

First of all, based on that pic, WB. Pleasant face, and she's probably fit (see below).

Looks like she's wearing a Crossfit shirt. Crossfit is expensive, something MMM would never go for (I can lift at home for free!) so she was probably hitting the box while MMM was spending hours cycling around Longmont and running his blog and meeting with his fans. Furthermore Crossfit gyms are home to lots of Alpha Bravo Chads, and you tend to get quite friendly with people at your gym (I went to a CF gym for a year, there's lots of socializing before/during/after workouts).

So here's my tinfoil hat conspiracy: After reviewing the MMM family finances, she decides its time to cash out and ride off with handsome chiseled Lukas from the gym.

Another case of Alpha fucks Beta bucks?

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-05-2019 12:44 PM)Higgins Wrote:  

Why would you tell a court about crypto you have no ostensible control over? Crypto is not a house, the blockchain may be public but it's certainly not transparent title records.

Before a court says you hid assets in crypto, the court has to first prove the transfer was fraudulent. Even right before a divorce, how would the judge prove it? Maybe it's a quirk of US law but I don't believe even in divorce the judge has overriding rights to determine what is or isn't. Specifically to crypto, it's not so clear cut. Maybe this guy did in fact send it to the wrong address. Even if the courts deem something like negligence of family assets, and that you are liable for such negligence, which is plausible but a stretch, you wouldn't be paying whatever amount up front, because you don't have control of the crypto asset right?

I'll agree with you on one thing, doing any type of asset protection immediately prior to an event(divorce or etc), during or after is utterly pointless. Asset protection is done well ahead of events. Perhaps we were talking about the same thing after all.

I think that is where there is some confusion.

The judge doesn't have to prove anything. They can just say it was a fraudulent transfer and you pay up. I would bet money they would consider anything transferred before a divorce to be a fraudulent transfer.

This happened a lot in bankruptcies when people tried to save their assets from creditors. Nothing new here.

You are right in that crypto will be more difficult to discover. Not impossible, though, because you will have to fund the crypto.

Not to mention any emails associated with the crypto accounts.

Did you pay taxes on crypto in the past? If not, you have bigger issues than a divorce court.

Crypto is becoming more mainstream now and with it the divorce courts and lawyers will be aware of it.

Do you plan on lying when under oath? Because there is a good chance you will be asked about it during discovery.

These courts and lawyers have been going after men hiding assets in other countries for a very long time. Successfully I might add.

[Hammerhead]

(01-05-2019 03:32 PM)Penta Sahi Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 02:27 PM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

Picture of the Previous Ms of the far right!

First of all, based on that pic, WB. Pleasant face, and she's probably fit (see below).

Looks like she's wearing a Crossfit shirt. Crossfit is expensive, something MMM would never go for (I can lift at home for free!) so she was probably hitting the box while MMM was spending hours cycling around Longmont and running his blog and meeting with his fans. Furthermore Crossfit gyms are home to lots of Alpha Bravo Chads, and you tend to get quite friendly with people at your gym (I went to a CF gym for a year, there's lots of socializing before/during/after workouts).

So here's my tinfoil hat conspiracy: After reviewing the MMM family finances, she decides its time to cash out and ride off with handsome chiseled Lukas from the gym.

Another case of Alpha fucks Beta bucks?

He definitely talked about working out in his self made gym behind their house and later behind the co-working space he started. He seemed to not like including her Crossfit subscription in his budget as well. We could be looking at a situation similar to what happened with Anthony Bourdain's wife, but replace MMA with Crossfit. The forum called that one way in advance.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(01-05-2019 04:20 PM)Hammerhead Wrote:  

He definitely talked about working out in his self made gym behind their house and later behind the co-working space he started. He seemed to not like including her Crossfit subscription in his budget as well. We could be looking at a situation similar to what happened with Anthony Bourdain's wife, but replace MMA with Crossfit. The forum called that one way in advance.

600 grand in a vanguard account and he got mad about her crossfit subscription?

[redbeard]

(01-05-2019 03:32 PM)Penta Sahi Wrote:  

Looks like she's wearing a Crossfit shirt. Crossfit is expensive, something MMM would never go for (I can lift at home for free!) so she someone was probably hitting the her box while MMM was spending hours cycling around Longmont and running his blog and meeting with his fans. Furthermore Crossfit gyms are home to lots of Alpha Bravo Chads, and you tend to get quite friendly with people at your gym (I went to a CF gym for a year, there's lots of socializing before/during/after workouts).

FTFY

[JackinMelbourne]

(01-05-2019 01:30 PM)Higgins Wrote:  

or our entire legal system is a sham.

OR? The legal system operates for the benefit of the legal system and "The Corporation". It is not about right or wrong. It is commercial in nature and that's why it revolves around agreements, transfers and payments. Every case in a commercial court is like a bank transaction: the courts get their cut through fees and everyone in the BAR association gets their cut regardless who wins or loses.

Even criminal law is commercial in nature, for example a murder takes money away from "The Corporation", it takes away a tax contributor and it takes away a debt slave.

It is the sole reason people are kept alive at all costs. If you ran a farm and 3 of your 10 cows were eaten by predators you'd be loosing a lot of milk. You are the cattle (people in general, not you specifically but yes, you and me included).

[Penta Sahi]

(01-05-2019 04:20 PM)Hammerhead Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 03:32 PM)Penta Sahi Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 02:27 PM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

Picture of the Previous Ms of the far right!

First of all, based on that pic, WB. Pleasant face, and she's probably fit (see below).

Looks like she's wearing a Crossfit shirt. Crossfit is expensive, something MMM would never go for (I can lift at home for free!) so she was probably hitting the box while MMM was spending hours cycling around Longmont and running his blog and meeting with his fans. Furthermore Crossfit gyms are home to lots of Alpha Bravo Chads, and you tend to get quite friendly with people at your gym (I went to a CF gym for a year, there's lots of socializing before/during/after workouts).

So here's my tinfoil hat conspiracy: After reviewing the MMM family finances, she decides its time to cash out and ride off with handsome chiseled Lukas from the gym.

Another case of Alpha fucks Beta bucks?

He definitely talked about working out in his self made gym behind their house and later behind the co-working space he started. He seemed to not like including her Crossfit subscription in his budget as well. We could be looking at a situation similar to what happened with Anthony Bourdain's wife, but replace MMA with Crossfit. The forum called that one way in advance.

Maybe one day MMM writes a cathartic tell-all blog post about what exactly happened between him and is ex-wife, similar to how he wrote about his failed business partner.

Mr. Money Mustache’s Big Mistake

Hopefully by then he has swallowed enough of the Red and Black pill to help educate his readership about the danger of marriage.

He can title the blog post "Mr. Money Mustache’s Big Mistake #2".

[Higgins]

(01-05-2019 01:52 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

So Higgins, how do you buy such a lump sum of XMR without it being traceable via discovery during a divorce? Sometimes they will go back 5 years to check for suspicious transactions.

Your post is contradictory. You ask how to buy crypto during a divorce implying it is a currently happening event, yet you say the courts will go back 5 years in a person's financial history but you haven't bought the crypto because the divorce is happening now.

Nice try. Amateurish as it was.

[TorontoRocks]

Pete's a good guy, all marriages end, why should his be any different?

At least he and his fellow Canadian (ex) wife got to escape the hell that is Ontario and are lucky enough to live in beautiful Colorado.

Fun fact, Pete's dad owned an ad agency and came up with a famous tag line, it played all the time on Toronto Blue Jays radio broadcasts in the 80's ("Dofasco, our product is steel....our strength is people).

[JackinMelbourne]

(01-05-2019 05:25 PM)Higgins Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 01:52 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

So Higgins, how do you buy such a lump sum of XMR without it being traceable via discovery during a divorce? Sometimes they will go back 5 years to check for suspicious transactions.

Your post is contradictory. You ask how to buy crypto during a divorce implying it is a currently happening event, yet you say the courts will go back 5 years in a person's financial history but you haven't bought the crypto because the divorce is happening now.

Nice try. Amateurish as it was.

He is saying that any sums bought within the last 5 years will be traced. And once again, the legal system works for the benefit of the legal system and the corporation, meaning they will fuck you as they wish and they have the man and firepower to back it up if you disagree.

Get real-world son. Idealism vs realism.

[Higgins]

(01-05-2019 03:51 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I think that is where there is some confusion.

The judge doesn't have to prove anything. They can just say it was a fraudulent transfer and you pay up. I would bet money they would consider anything transferred before a divorce to be a fraudulent transfer.

This happened a lot in bankruptcies when people tried to save their assets from creditors. Nothing new here.

You are right in that crypto will be more difficult to discover. Not impossible, though, because you will have to fund the crypto.

Not to mention any emails associated with the crypto accounts.

Did you pay taxes on crypto in the past? If not, you have bigger issues than a divorce court.

Crypto is becoming more mainstream now and with it the divorce courts and lawyers will be aware of it.

Do you plan on lying when under oath? Because there is a good chance you will be asked about it during discovery.

These courts and lawyers have been going after men hiding assets in other countries for a very long time. Successfully I might add.

You know the process well, but I don't think you have had any real experience in this.

A judge/court absolutely has to prove intent. A one off does not signify intent.

There's a statute of limitations on fraudulent transfers. Hence timing is everything.

Funding crypto buys in itself doesn't mean anything. I can achieve asset transfers using wash trading of publicly listed assets and break a couple of securities laws in the process as well.

If you don't think people lie under oath, I have a bridge to sell you. I take payment in crypto.

What happens in discovery?
Lawyer for opposing party: Do you have any other accounts not mentioned?
Guy getting questioned: No. (Of course he does)
Next.

Yes, there have been some cases of asset recovery from overseas jurisdictions. However, usually the sum recovered is a fraction. Also, the legal logistics needed to recover said assets overseas is not easy.

Did you know it takes a retainer of 50K USD to a mid sized bankruptcy trustee firm just to look at the prospects over recovering assets hidden overseas? Of course not.

Not to mention the actual costs to file a similar suit using the precedent set locally into the overseas jurisdiction, trustee fees to retain a local overseas legal firm, court costs, overseas lawyer fees, etc. Every country in which there is assets the process has to be repeated.

Reality is most people go broke before they realize a single dollar. Family could be different, I'm not sure if the state will fund it all.

But hey, you guys feel free to believe whatever you want to believe. Bankruptcy is evil! Santa is real! The legal system is infallible! Ignorance is bliss!