[alecks]

really good video on how a date should go.

[Basil Ransom]

His game was very good, but he'd have to do more if she weren't immediately strongly into him (i.e. if he wasn't extremely handsome and if she wasn't much older). We've all been in situations like that, where the woman is outright chasing us. It's enough to sit back, be a little coy, and let her interrogate you. As long as you don't project neediness, and there are no AMOGs/Cockblocks circling, you'll do fine. Plus she's an absolute nut.

If the clips are accurate, he didn't really actively converse with her much; he stood around, laid back, smiled, played it coy, and bought condoms. If you do that with a girl who isn't really into you already, and you're just sitting at a table, you will come off as boring. Unless you've already banged her.

When he said he had to stop at the store, I immediately thought 'condoms.' The rose was a very sharp move, to allay her defenses. But something like that would probably backfire if the woman wasn't utterly convinced of his superiority, and about to bang him.

[Gmac]

(10-05-2011 11:16 AM)basilransom Wrote:  

When he said he had to stop at the store, I immediately thought 'condoms.' The rose was a very sharp move, to allay her defenses. But something like that would probably backfire if the woman wasn't utterly convinced of his superiority, and about to bang him.

A better move would have been a bag of skittles, "just for you."

[Samseau]

She was 31. Beta game works very well on women over 30. She was extremely hot for being over 30, but, mentally, she was still just a 30 year old.

And he did a number of moves:

- Holding back on being sexual
- Offering her to come back to his hottub, and then taking the offer away
- The rose move
- Good date ideas, like surfing together

[Urban Renaissance Man]

(10-04-2011 03:36 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(10-03-2011 01:10 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Something that took me years to get was the fact that good looks works against you if you're being a jerk/assertive.

I can't emphasize this enough. I cringe to think of all the sunken prospects I lost in my teens for failure to recognize this simple truth.

(10-04-2011 09:55 AM)Moma Wrote:  

Is it even possible to overgame? I thought the whole point of game was understanding what it takes to get the lizard into bed or to do what one wants. So how can one overgame? Just curious...or is it about going through the entire repetoire of 'game' without noticing which triggers she is responding to?

Game is a broad term that can actually mean a lot of things. The theoretical/academic perspectives that Tom Leykis outlines in his shows, for example, can all be considered game. Likewise, game can also be defined in practical terms(negging, push-pull, building rapport, etc).

When we talk about overgaming, we're usually referring to an overuse of the more practical aspects of game.

These aspects are designed specifically to build attraction (and, later, to get her to be more intimate with you). The assumption is that you're dealing with a female who is lukewarm to you at best and downright dismissive of you at worst. You use negs, rapport building, routines, cold approaches and a whole host of other practical things to try and build attraction for you.

The thing with the good-looking guy is that he needs to do about half of the work. Many of these practical phases of game(cocky-funny, neg, etc) are redundant for him. These are designed to build attraction, and the good looking guy has usually already attracted the girl.

Overgaming can occur when a good-looking guy fails to realize this, and begins to rely on the more practical aspects of attraction-building game as though he needed them as much as any other dude.

As basil and others in this thread have already pointed out, women are more insecure than a lot of guys think. They are people, just like you.
This means that they can be intimidated or carry low self esteem, just like any male/AFC we know, if they come across a high value partner.

Even a hot girl can be a little intimidated around a good looking guy she is attracted to, as many an HB10 carries insecurities about her looks/social status (again, just like many dudes). You can imagine how 5s, 6s and 7s feel. If you've got enough going for you, you can scare the shit out of them even if you force some tingles. They're a lot more fragile than the average guy understands.

When that same good looking guy starts negging her and/or running cocky-funny game, it can push her insecurity over the edge. She is already a little wary of her status relative to yours-if you start trying to take her down a notch, she'll just feel lousy and she will no longer wish to be around you, even if she is attracted. You'll have damaged her ego far too much.

That is overgaming. You can also call this "trying too hard". That attractive guy is simply working too hard to build something(attraction) that is already there. He doesn't need to neg her and tear her down-she is already looking up to him.

A more laid-back style of game would work out better for the good-looking guy. His goal is not to build attraction, but rather not to mess up what he inherently has (while still creating a little sexual tension via kino and telling a joke or two to build some rapport). If he makes use of most standard PUA tactics (neg, cocky-funny, etc), he'll end up overgaming. She will assume that he is either a condescending douche/jerk or a guy with zero self-esteem(acting like less than he is). If she can't reconcile these, then she'll just conclude that he is weird.

His chances of improving the notch count would probably go up if he did less.

The bottomline: For some guys, less is more.

More on this topic here.

Also check out Real Made Men.

Wow! No matter what it still comes down to self-esteem! Good looking guys not realizing they're good looking do themselves more disservice then anything else.

[Excelsior]

(10-05-2011 03:36 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

Wow! No matter what it still comes down to self-esteem! Good looking guys not realizing they're good looking do themselves more disservice then anything else.

Correct. I can speak to this because I made these mistakes before the red pill. I lost a whole lot of notches back then, and most of them were completely due to my own lack of self esteem.

In high school, I thought I was an unattractive loser when I was, in fact, a good looking athletic guy. Most people couldn't understand how a future D-1 athlete who looked the way I did wasn't getting laid, and I didn't know why either back then, but now I do: I had no confidence. I was a jock who behaved like an awkward nerd. I thought girls were out of my league when, in reality, they were looking up to me, and would have easily given it up if I'd just seen the light.

I cringe now when I look/think back and realize how blatant some of their signals were-girls were dying to fuck me while I was busy thinking that I'd never get laid and no girl liked me. I put myself in a subordinate position, nobody else did.

In my freshman year of college I did become a little more extroverted/confident (I was determined not to be as anti-social as I was in high school), but now instead of being quiet low-self esteem dude I was aggressive low self-esteem dude. I still couldn't understand that I was attractive, so I aggressively tried to keep building attraction. I overgamed. The girls would have come if I'd just realized that I was fine the way I was and that I didn't need to try and move mountains that weren't there (and if I'd quite trying to do the beta dinner-date thing).
Of course, I didn't realize this, and ended up learning it the hard way (and burning many of my social bridges on campus in the process).

By the time I'd learned my lesson(sophomore year), I already had a bad reputation. Nobody hated me-on the contrary, pretty much everyone thought I was a nice, loyal guy. But beyond that politeness, there was nothing. I wasn't a dude they wanted to hang out with for too long on weekends. The word "creepy" had tainted my reputation with many girls, and interactions with them from then on were always awkward(reputation spreads like wildfire on small campuses, and girls pick it up in a heartbeat).

The sad thing is that these girls did like me-they told me as much to my face on several weekend occasions early on in our relationship. But as time went on, they could not reconcile my obvious attractiveness with my unattractive behavior. They saw a good looking guy trying way too hard (negging, trying to be cocky, cold approaching too many chicks in one place, drinking too much for liquid courage, etc.), as though he were less than them. It was like he didn't know who/what he was(attractive), and existential confusion like that isn't sexy. They couldn't understand why this was, and when young girls don't "get" something like that, "creepy" becomes the catch-all term.

I write this just in case there are any young dudes out there who were like I was: have some confidence. Do not stand in your own way. And know that overgaming is just as harmful as being a clueless, under-gaming AFC. Trust me when I say that you really and truly can be your own worst enemy.

[Urban Renaissance Man]

I guess the 1,000,000 dollar question is, how do you accurately determine if you're a 5 or a 10? Unless you have obvious brad pitt, boris kodjoe looks, how will you know that particular girl thinks you're hot and if it's time to game hard or game soft? Won't each situation be subject to that girl's personal taste?

[Excelsior]

(10-05-2011 06:47 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

I guess the 1,000,000 dollar question is, how do you accurately determine if you're a 5 or a 10? Unless you have obvious brad pitt, boris kodjoe looks, how will you know that particular girl thinks you're hot and if it's time to game hard or game soft? Won't each situation be subject to that girl's personal taste?

Hot or Not.

I put myself on there freshman year and got an 8.9. I was skeptical of this, until I realized that people were always telling me I looked good since high school (family, friends, random internet forumers, chicks, etc). Even a number of my college teammates pointed it out, and what reason could they have to make stuff up about my looks? The score matched my reality.
I therefore concluded that Hot or Not might actually be useful in telling you where you stand. It worked for me, anyway. I bet it could work for you too.

Drunken words are also sober thoughts. Plenty of girl's called me "hot" when we were both a little gone, and admitted they'd made this conclusion a while ago. Their actions matched their words, even though they would never have let me know any of this sober. You can get more honesty with alcohol sometimes if you play it right.

[MikeCF]

(10-05-2011 06:47 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

I guess the 1,000,000 dollar question is, how do you accurately determine if you're a 5 or a 10? Unless you have obvious brad pitt, boris kodjoe looks, how will you know that particular girl thinks you're hot and if it's time to game hard or game soft? Won't each situation be subject to that girl's personal taste?

Lots of ways, but this one is surefire:

Tell a cute girl you're reading a game site. If she says, "What!? Why would YOU need to learn game," then you're good looking.

If not, you're not (and keep the game reading to yourself, or else it'll seem creepy.) It's CUTE when a good looking guy reads a game site. It's CREEPY when average or so-so guys do.

[_DC_]

(10-05-2011 06:47 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

I guess the 1,000,000 dollar question is, how do you accurately determine if you're a 5 or a 10? Unless you have obvious brad pitt, boris kodjoe looks, how will you know that particular girl thinks you're hot and if it's time to game hard or game soft? Won't each situation be subject to that girl's personal taste?

Like I mentioned before, I think a good barometer is people close to you who have nothing to gain or lose from saying you are "good-looking". If the majority of your male friends have either come right out and said it or hinted at it constantly e.g. "I'd clean up on these girls if I was good looking like you" etc. I feel like "good-looking" is the socially acceptable term for male on male complimenting. "Hot" would certainly sound gay.

As for girls who don't come right out and say it, you can tell when somebody is attracted to you i.e. are they giving you positive vibes, twinkling dilated eyes, and full attention before hardly any words are being spoken. Also, having a not-instantly-shot-down rate of near 99% should be a good indicator as well.

Also, psychology aside, the mirror doesn't lie too much and people should have a decent idea where they stand.

I'd say the worst indicators are family or loved ones (e.g. girlfriends) especially if asked or pressured into an answer. Completely biased.

[Basil Ransom]

(10-05-2011 07:04 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Lots of ways, but this one is surefire:

Tell a cute girl you're reading a game site. If she says, "What!? Why would YOU need to learn game," then you're good looking.

If not, you're not (and keep the game reading to yourself, or else it'll seem creepy.) It's CUTE when a good looking guy reads a game site. It's CREEPY when average or so-so guys do.

'Good looking' status isn't so cut and dried. Take the same guy, and style him two ways, and one girl will say Version A is hotter, while another girl will say Version B of that guy is hotter. I've had very cute girls think I'm hot, and more plain girls think I'm just cute, for this reason. Their personal preferences vary.

Another huge factor is the men in her life: the more handsome her male friends and fucks, the more handsome you have to be, to be considered good-looking. Find a hot girl who hangs with ugly guys, and she will have a higher opinion of your looks than a girl who runs with the beautiful people.

[DLuzhin]

(10-05-2011 06:56 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(10-05-2011 06:47 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

I guess the 1,000,000 dollar question is, how do you accurately determine if you're a 5 or a 10? Unless you have obvious brad pitt, boris kodjoe looks, how will you know that particular girl thinks you're hot and if it's time to game hard or game soft? Won't each situation be subject to that girl's personal taste?

Hot or Not.

I put myself on there freshman year and got an 8.9. I was skeptical of this, until I realized that people were always telling me I looked good since high school (family, friends, random internet forumers, chicks, etc). Even a number of my college teammates pointed it out, and what reason could they have to make stuff up about my looks? The score matched my reality.
I therefore concluded that Hot or Not might actually be useful in telling you where you stand. It worked for me, anyway. I bet it could work for you too.

I totally always thought I was a complete warpig until I got a 9.6 on Ho or No. (I'm not that good-looking, it was just a good picture.) Glad I'm not the only one that had that happen.

One thing I want to note about the video is that he is wearing a bright red shirt, which has been said to make men seem more attractive to women:
http://generallythinking.com/a-simple-th...attracted/

[Nonpareil]

There is only one true way to measure which guy is good looking and which isn't; how many women check him out, how many women make and hold eye contact with him?

[Basil Ransom]

Hot or Not is warped. I just went through like 20 dudes, and not a single one rated below an 8.1.

This dude rated as an 8.3:



So did this guy:



Oh, and this guy:

[Urban Renaissance Man]

So much for hot or not. Those guys are 6 1/2 at best.

[Excelsior]

The site ain't foolproof, but I did get nearly a 9 and this...

(10-05-2011 07:19 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

If the majority of your male friends have either come right out and said it or hinted at it constantly e.g. "I'd clean up on these girls if I was good looking like you" etc. I feel like "good-looking" is the socially acceptable term for male on male complimenting.

....

As for girls who don't come right out and say it, you can tell when somebody is attracted to you i.e. are they giving you positive vibes, twinkling dilated eyes, and full attention before hardly any words are being spoken. Also, having a not-instantly-shot-down rate of near 99% should be a good indicator as well.

...has all been my experience. The rating matched up to real life for me, but then again I guess it won't do this for everybody.

[Gmac]

Dude I have like a 9.8 on Hot or Not, it's completely skewed. I'm lucky to be a 7.5.

[Screwston]

I had very low self esteem in high school and didn't know what I was working with (look wise and the snake in my pants) until I graduated. The cocky asshole came out when I discovered how to use my looks to get pussy and started hearing girls say I'm cute, fine, sexy. I want to try and act nicer with girls to see what happens. I want girls to stop accusing me of having a girlfriend and being a playa when we first talk....a good looking guy that acts nice and doesn't give off the playa/asshole vibe will put you on another level. Yes, my asshole style has worked on plenty of lizards but I'm sure its costed me a lot of lonely porno nights.

I can't really read this thread like I want to because I'm on my phone at a bowling alley but what do y'all think? Am I going in the right direction or taking steps backwards?

[Excelsior]

(10-05-2011 10:05 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

Dude I have like a 9.8 on Hot or Not, it's completely skewed. I'm lucky to be a 7.5.

I guess I'm an anomaly.

[Excelsior]

(10-05-2011 10:30 PM)houston Wrote:  

I had very low self esteem in high school and didn't know what I was working with (look wise and the snake in my pants) until I graduated. The cocky asshole came out when I discovered how to use my looks to get pussy and started hearing girls say I'm cute, fine, sexy. I want to try and act nicer with girls to see what happens. I want girls to stop accusing me of having a girlfriend and being a playa when we first talk....a good looking guy that acts nice and doesn't give off the playa/asshole vibe will put you on another level. Yes, my asshole style has worked on plenty of lizards but I'm sure its costed me a lot of lonely porno nights.

I can't really read this thread like I want to because I'm on my phone at a bowling alley but what do y'all think? Am I going in the right direction or taking steps backwards?

Cocky-funny-asshole game is largely designed to build attraction. If you're find more women than you'd like are reacting in a lukewarm/negative way to it, then it is entirely possible that you may be overgaming.

You say you've got solid tools to work with physically. That opens the possibility that you may very well already have attraction with these girls, and the cocky-funny(which, again, is built for increasing attraction) is overkill. That is what will cause girls to label you a player or(in a worst case scenario) a douche/creep.

If they're already attracted to you, just tone down the cocky-funny a bit. Tease a little more gently. Adopt a more laid back approach, and calibrate it over time until you've hit a more optimum level. If they're already into you because of the tools you have, then why do the work trying to convince them? Let them come to you.

[gringochileno]

(10-04-2011 07:09 PM)Mace Wrote:  

For good looking guys it's all about FAG game - Fuck-Up Avoidance Game. Don't say anything stupid.

Here's a solid example.

She was already into him, it was up to him not to fuck it up by saying something stupid. Solid FAG game in play.

Awesome date game, he laid all the groundwork he needed to make the bang happen without ever losing the frame that she was chasing him. After a certain point you could tell that it was completely inevitable that they'd be fucking that night--that's the sign of a job well done.

If I ever need to pick up condoms on the way home with a chick I'm totally stealing the rose move but I'll do it with skittles instead (thanks Gmac!)

[Giovonny]

(10-04-2011 07:09 PM)Mace Wrote:  

For good looking guys it's all about FAG game - Fuck-Up Avoidance Game. Don't say anything stupid.

I have a few good looking friends who use "FAG Game". There Game is really not that strong but they are smart enough to know when to shut up. They just sort of laugh with the girl and make short, simple statements. The girl is attracted to their looks. They don't have to do anything to "build" attraction. Its just about getting the girl comfortable. These guys never get to excited, never talk to much, never get loud and rowdy. They just keep laughing and smiling. For them, it really is just about not "fucking it up".

Alot of guys talk to much. I know I have lost a few girls running my mouth when I should have been listening. Listening to a girl when she wants to talk is probably more important then talking to her.

The more you talk the more chances that you might say something stupid.

(10-05-2011 06:47 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  

I guess the 1,000,000 dollar question is, how do you accurately determine if you're a 5 or a 10?

Good question.

(10-05-2011 08:22 PM)Nonpareil Wrote:  

There is only one true way to measure which guy is good looking and which isn't; how many women check him out, how many women make and hold eye contact with him?

Good answer.

[The_CEO]

(10-06-2011 11:14 AM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(10-04-2011 07:09 PM)Mace Wrote:  

For good looking guys it's all about FAG game - Fuck-Up Avoidance Game. Don't say anything stupid.

I have a few good looking friends who use "FAG Game". There Game is really not that strong but they are smart enough to know when to shut up. They just sort of laugh with the girl and make short, simple statements. The girl is attracted to their looks. They don't have to do anything to "build" attraction. Its just about getting the girl comfortable. These guys never get to excited, never talk to much, never get loud and rowdy. They just keep laughing and smiling. For them, it really is just about not "fucking it up".

Alot of guys talk to much. I know I have lost a few girls running my mouth when I should have been listening. Listening to a girl when she wants to talk is probably more important then talking to her.

The more you talk the more chances that you might say something stupid.

what is uncanny is in these situations it feels like the girl is gaming you.

[Giovonny]

(10-06-2011 01:48 PM)The_CEO Wrote:  

what is uncanny is in these situations it feels like the girl is gaming you.

Yes, thats a great way to put it. And, I think that is basically true. When the girl starts Gaming you, shut the fuck up and let her do it the way the way she wants to.

I'm often amazed how little my good looking friends talk before they bang a girl.

[Urban Renaissance Man]

(10-05-2011 09:08 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

The site ain't foolproof, but I did get nearly a 9 and this...

(10-05-2011 07:19 PM)_DC_ Wrote:  

If the majority of your male friends have either come right out and said it or hinted at it constantly e.g. "I'd clean up on these girls if I was good looking like you" etc. I feel like "good-looking" is the socially acceptable term for male on male complimenting.

....

As for girls who don't come right out and say it, you can tell when somebody is attracted to you i.e. are they giving you positive vibes, twinkling dilated eyes, and full attention before hardly any words are being spoken. Also, having a not-instantly-shot-down rate of near 99% should be a good indicator as well.

...has all been my experience. The rating matched up to real life for me, but then again I guess it won't do this for everybody.

So, do you feel girls of different races might view you less attractive than, say, a black girl?