[This Is Trouble]

Honestly, been going through an interesting time in life and I feel the need to get this out there.

And to promote some real discussion.

I think many guys out there have this desire to date girls from the further eastern countries. No doubt by now, they make better girlfriends, wives, and mothers. The plus sides are enormous.

But actually living in those countries for us men - is a whole different challenge. Of course, actually exporting a girl to the USA or another very western country is fraught with problems, they've been discussed numerous times. The culture will come on them, they'll just become more westernized, being naturally thin and pretty will result in other guys trying to swoop in, etc, etc.

I get emails from my blog often - wondering if it's a feasible option to export a girl to a slightly-more-western-but-not-the United States country. If it's feasible to take a girl from a place like Russia, Ukraine, or Belarus and move her to a place like Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, etc. You know, places that are still reasonably affordable, where the standards of living are higher, English is better, cleaner, things just work better, etc.

It seems like a dream scenario, right?

You get the eastern girl with good values, move her to a country where you can survive better and yet she won't become too westernized, and everybody wins, right?

Well, let me tell you my story from the last few years and see what you think.

I met my girl in Ukraine, and at the very same time we met, she was already in the process of obtaining a student visa for one of those aforementioned Central European countries. It worked out. Right when she got it was when many of my friends (from this forum, etc.) were leaving Ukraine that year. It was October, the snow was coming, everyone was leaving. So she asked if I'd tag along with her for the rest of the year. The relationship was going well, so I figured why the hell not.

And then I went back the next year.

Then signed a lease.

Had a great year.

Signed another.

It was sort of an ideal situation. I had a girl who I got along great with, who already had all her ducks in a row to leave the further-eastern country, and all I had to do was just book my own ticket. I didn't have to foot the bill for her visa, didn't have to do anything really.

Overall, the relationship is excellent, very few complaints there. But I'm writing this as a warning, because I see a huge problem that has crept up on me over the last years, and it has taken a crisis (her visa situation) for it all to come to light.

Fact of the matter is, most girls who make good girlfriends and LTRs don't have the social "outgoingness" to move to a city and make a whole new social circle. It's tough for them - they hate rejection. And while the things that make her a good girlfriend (quiet, submissive, introverted) make you a good fit, the bad part is that in a new city many of them are going to struggle to build that same foundation they had at home.

Those lifelong friends.

Their family.

Those things don't just appear on a whim. While us fellas on RVF have moved to dozens of cities, started over with no friends, and built up a social circle, your average young girl doesn't have this ability (unless she's the party type, which I don't need to explain doesn't make the best LTR material). So naturally, this falls to you to figure out one way or another.

But what you don't realize is that you are now BOTH outsiders in a new country.

It is difficult for a man to move abroad, settle in a new city, and build a permanent life. It is very different from packing your bag and going somewhere new every 1-3 months. It's a tough ask of anyone, and it's even tougher when you have a girlfriend who is not a local either.

A few problems:

- Things like navigating bureaucracy become something she's not familiar with at all.

- The language, even if she speaks it, she's not native. It's not her native tongue, and she will never be as confident in her abilities as a local.

- Family is incredibly important in many of these cultures. Take this away and she's going to have a hard time.

I am beginning to believe that if you are really aiming to have a family of your own at some point, you must live in one of your respective countries. I just cannot see it working otherwise.

More:

I also don't know how this would affect children. To have one parent be western, another eastern, and then to live in a country in the middle? They might figure it out, but I also feel like you may be robbing your children of their own sense of identity and culture. They'll have two cultures and two languages at home, and then a third culture and language outside of the home. How is that fair to them? I dunno, maybe they figure it out and you do your best. I can't say I have the answer, but I also don't know if I can see it working.

Continuing...

In addition, I'm not sure how I feel about raising a family without having any family around. I'm sure as hell not going back to the liberal cesspool of California, and I can't see my own parents coming out here anytime soon. I have a hard time picturing having kids without any grandparents or direct support around. Stranded on an island and left to just figure it out yourself. I now think I have a much better realization of why my parents never moved far from my grandparents. Fact of the matter is that human beings are tribal creatures, and it helps.

I'm sort of just word-vomiting at this point, but I feel like this is something that isn't well talked about. The pitfalls of a "full" export are out there, but the "half-export" model is something that doesn't seem to have a lot of data. It's partially because visa issues on both ends make it unrealistic for many, but I think there are much deeper issues that surface - they just take a year (or more) to begin to dawn on you.

I'm reaching a point in this relationship where I'm going to have to make a decision where to take it. I do feel like the travel and crazy partying part of my life is relatively over, and I would like to be able to reach the next level(s) with my businesses. And she's gets me, a good soul, and up until this point, everything has been great. But I am realizing that perhaps this "half-export" model is not going to be the best option for the future. Perhaps I need to take her home.

So, in conclusion:

Moving girls from the far east to a more westernized place may not be as ideal as it seems on paper. A relationship where neither of you are locals or really feel a part of a culture is a strange place to be, and very possibly, not ideal at all for raising any kids.

[asdfk]

How do you feel yourself about the country you are staying in?

I have done two trial runs last year where I took a giirl to a different country. Both attempts sucked balls and you mentioned a lot of the reasons above.

But what also played a role is that I didn’t really liked the countries we were moving to. It became an impossible situation to manage.

[This Is Trouble]

Agreed with your sentiments there.

I like it most days, I think I prefer her home city.

It would be easier in this country if she had a better support system, of that I have no doubt.

[Suits]

I had a very rewarding relationship with a Chinese women for about a year and a half recently. It ended two months ago when her behavior became increasingly worse, but it was educational on a number of fronts.

Relevant to this thread, is the fact that I would never have been able to export her. I can't even take her to a restaurant that specializes in non-Chinese food without her looking through the entire menu and deciding that there was literally nothing she wanted to eat.

I think even travelling together outside of China would have been rough for even a short period of time. She's extremely comfortable where she is and while my adventures interest her, I think she avoids it for herself.

I never seriously considered it, but moving her to a place where we both would be on unreliable temporary visas or to Canada to seek her immigration would have probably been hell for both her and me.

[yankeetravels]

As a younger guy on the forum with not as much experience as others in this type of thing with LTRs abroad, this is something that I was thinking about in the longer term. I tried one shorter LTR with a girl from abroad and at the time, I really cared for her. It never got to a point where I had to think to this stage, but earlier on I had to think about if something really could work out. Could I live in her country forever, could she come to mine, or go somewhere in the middle and maybe travel a bit like you're saying? I eventually realized there was no solid answer and I wasn't ready for that, so I broke it off a little after I came home.

I know guys here married to girls in the east and this is still a question they face. In some ways, I think even Roosh faced this question himself at some point, maybe even now.

The truth is, maybe some of us have no place. This isn't meant to be a bad thing like being ostracized, more like being in the middle of a few lines in the sand that we can't seem to decide where to cross. Maybe it's just because I'm younger, but I definitely feel that way myself at the moment.

I do agree that most humans are social/tribal creatures. Having a system and community does give people around me comfort and content but not exploring possibilities that perhaps we are. Let's face it, it takes balls to uproot no matter who you are or where you're from. I give our ancestors a lot more credit now for that.

I heard this saying from a movie where a father tells his teenage son that most adults don't have a clue and that everybody is just kind of winging it. I do believe that more and more the older I get because at the end of the day, we are only human and no one has all of the answers. That's why I believe people turn to God but that's another discussion.

This is unfamiliar territory for me, so all I can really say is that seeing what you write and talk about plus speaking to you before, you seem to have a very good head on your shoulders. Much better than I do lol. At the end of the day, we have to go with our gut saying what's right or wrong for us, because I don't think anyone is ever 100% sure what the perfect scenario is.

[Winston Wolfe]

If someone put a gun to your head and you HAD to answer: "Where will you spend the rest of your days, starting right now?"

What would your answer be?

I think the reality is that most people would pick their home country. In most cases, both you and your girlfriend will each pick your respective home countries, if it would really come down to it. And I do think those are the only two choices you have. Picking a country neither of you are from can be fun at first, but in the long run it's a recipe for disaster for the reasons already mentioned.

So then it becomes a matter of who is going to make "the sacrifice" i.e. who is going to settle in the other's country? And this is without even taking into consideration the many advantages and disadvantages of both options, from both your perspectives.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. In most cases, there is no answer that truly satisfies the both of you. There certainly hasn't been for me, in several relationships with foreign girls.

My conclusion so far is that if money wasn't an issue, I would settle in her country and we would frequently visit my country and my family (at least twice a year for 1 month or longer). Of course this course of action comes with its own set of challenges, most of which can be solved by making enough money to support a lifestyle like this for your entire family. Tough, but not impossible.

[This Is Trouble]

(08-14-2018 07:46 AM)Winston Wolfe Wrote:  

If someone put a gun to your head and you HAD to answer: "Where will you spend the rest of your days, starting right now?"

What would your answer be?

I think the reality is that most people would pick their home country. In most cases, both you and your girlfriend will each pick your respective home countries, if it would really come down to it. And I do think those are the only two choices you have. Picking a country neither of you are from can be fun at first, but in the long run it's a recipe for disaster for the reasons already mentioned.

So then it becomes a matter of who is going to make "the sacrifice" i.e. who is going to settle in the other's country? And this is without even taking into consideration the many advantages and disadvantages of both options, from both your perspectives.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. In most cases, there is no answer that truly satisfies the both of you. There certainly hasn't been for me, in several relationships with foreign girls.

My conclusion so far is that if money wasn't an issue, I would settle in her country and we would frequently visit my country and my family (at least twice a year for 1 month or longer). Of course this course of action comes with its own set of challenges, most of which can be solved by making enough money to support a lifestyle like this for your entire family. Tough, but not impossible.

Honestly, my answer would not be my home country.

I really have no desire to return to the States. I conduct my businesses there and that's plenty. Visiting is nice, full-time, no desire to.

If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably say based off of my travels and where I've been happiest....I'd say hers.

Your last paragraph is actually my ideal. In my perfect world, probably would base in her home country 9-10 months of the year. I make more than enough (location independently) that I can fund both of us traveling extensively. Do this for a few years and then settle there.

Maybe the answer is staring me right in the face of the gun you mentioned.

[asdfk]

This is a problem a small subset of men have. Men who travel from one country to the next. It complicates things tremendously.

I second that if she does not like the country or has trouble building a social circle, you are just screwed. Buddy of mine is dealing with this right now and the desperation in his voice messages is palpable.

I think you have to screen hard in the beginning for what she wants. And even then you might run Into unpleasant surprises.

One of the now inactive great posters found out after 6 months his new girl has a very hard time travelling. The hard way. By going on a holiday and seeing her freak out.

I don’t want to deal with things like that anymore.

Edit: @This is trouble: sound like a good solution. Cool!

[Lino]

(08-14-2018 07:58 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

Honestly, my answer would not be my home country.

I really have no desire to return to the States. I conduct my businesses there and that's plenty. Visiting is nice, full-time, no desire to.

If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably say based off of my travels and where I've been happiest....I'd say hers.

Your last paragraph is actually my ideal. In my perfect world, probably would base in her home country 9-10 months of the year. I make more than enough (location independently) that I can fund both of us traveling extensively. Do this for a few years and then settle there.

Maybe the answer is staring me right in the face of the gun you mentioned.

There you go, if you enjoy her country and have enough income to live comfortably there, why not doing it.
I love brasilian women but I know how they become once they live in the west, if I was location independant and their country was safer I would probably settle there. On paper you are still doing a sacrifice as you are moving away from your home country but if that guarantees that she keeps her qualities over the time then Imo it is worth it.

[DaveR]

Did either of you actually choose to live in said country, or was it decided for you by the circumstances?

Unless she's a non-Russian-speaker from L'vov and chose to live in Poland, I can't imagine life in one of those central-european flyover countries being her dream.

They usually choose to study in those countries because their first choice (usually: France, Italy, Spain, UK, USA, Canada, Greece, Australia) is either too expensive or they can't get a place.

[This Is Trouble]

She made the choice to study here. She learned the language.

[DaveR]

(08-14-2018 08:17 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

She made the choice to study here. She learned the language.

Fair enough. It's hard to know exactly what the situation is without going into details, which you obviously can't do for privacy reasons.

I know a few expatriate families who seem happy enough, but the differences are:
- they have children
- there's a Russian orthodox parish in their city or she joined the local church
- the culture of whichever country they moved to is open to foreigners (I would put Central Europe at the bottom of the list in that regard)
- husband and wife already spoke the language before moving there. I.e. they both chose that place independently.

[the-dream]

Another undiscussed dilemma is that these undeveloped countries are great to live in when you're a free single man with one foot in the door and can just take advantage of the benefits and avoid the downsides.

But if you really want to put down roots there, get married and integrate into a local family, buy a house, set up a business and have to deal with all the local bureaucracy and corruption, and actually integrate into the dysfunctional society instead of living on the edge then that place probably becomes a whole lot less appealing.

I think if your girl is from a big city instead of the countryside or truly upper class then you'd avoid a lot of these problems but the sweetest girls are probably usually the countryside girls.

Edit: I'm speaking from experience in SEA but I imagine that the same applies in Eastern Europe and South America.

[Off The Reservation]

Her patience will run thin at some point if you don't marry her. She sounds young and has a nice personality right? How many guys are there from 25 to 55 that would gladly scoop her up and make her their wife? That doesn't mean that you want that, only you can decide. But be aware of the natural tendency for girls with something to offer to get tired of BS.

Why don't you tell her what you are thinking in a more clear manner than before.

"I like this city / don't like that one. This and that is what I want out of the future."
"Can you see us raising a family here?"
"What are your concerns about this place?"

Have the confidence that if you make her your woman, she will not fall victim to the things you mention.

However if you never define your goals and her role, yes she could wander off.

Try to get to the bottom of why you fear this girl falls in the generalization you mention in your OP.

[Not-a-libtard]

Lots of guys on this forum are convinced that Eastern European women make "Great girlfriends, wives, and mothers" etc

Many of these guys have not even been to Eastern Europe, but they parrot what is said by those who have...."Ukrainian women wear summer dresses, heels, make themselves look nice, and reject feminism". They think it's that simple, they don't consider other factors like cultural differences.

I have been to Ukraine many many times in the last 8 years or so, and I know very few men that are in successful relationships with Ukrainian women. One guy I know took his Ukrainian girl out of the country, impregnated her and now has a kid with her. But after 1.5 years he tells me that she wants more and more from him. Now he is back to being my wingman on pussy hunting missions.

When I first visited Ukraine other guys with experience there advised me to never take your woman out of the country, there's a lot of truth in that, but if you stay in Ukraine then the chances are having a monogamous relationship are virtually zero, the main past-time in that country is chasing tail.

[CleanSlate]

I think the only real option is to live in her country.

Don’t forget that sweet and feminine girls are byproducts of the environment they grew up in. Take them away from that, it may make her more unstable and there’s no telling how she will turn out. Not likely for the better, though, even (especially?) if you move the two of you to a third country where neither of you are locals. Not to mention it’s probably bad for the kids.

My advice for settling into her country long term is you need two things:

1. Patience
2. Learn the damn language

Those are hard requirements as far as I’m concerned. If you don’t have the patience nor the willingness to learn a new language, I don’t see how a LTR/marriage is going to work in this situation. But with the West the way it is now, it may be our only choice if we want marriage and kids.

Plus learning the language makes your life 1000x easier. You know you’re doing well when you can argue with a local taxi driver in his langauge—and win.

[asdfk]

Quote:

Don’t forget that sweet and feminine girls are byproducts of the environment they grew up in. Take them away from that, it may make her more unstable and there’s no telling how she will turn out.

Signature worthy.

[Lino]

(08-14-2018 09:17 AM)the-dream Wrote:  

Another undiscussed dilemma is that these undeveloped countries are great to live in when you're a free single man with one foot in the door and can just take advantage of the benefits and avoid the downsides.

But if you really want to put down roots there, get married and integrate into a local family, buy a house, set up a business and have to deal with all the local bureaucracy and corruption, and actually integrate into the dysfunctional society instead of living on the edge then that place probably becomes a whole lot less appealing.

I think if your girl is from a big city instead of the countryside or truly upper class then you'd avoid a lot of these problems but the sweetest girls are probably usually the countryside girls.

Edit: I'm speaking from experience in SEA but I imagine that the same applies in Eastern Europe and South America.

This is true. Upper class girls are usually too westernised (in a bd way) for me, on the other hand, an apparently sweet and submissive girl from a modest family might be with you to escape poverty. If I like a girl I usually tell her quickly that I am not taking her to the west, I can consider moving to her country but not the opposite, the ones who aren’t truly into me usually quickly disappear.

[JohnQPublic]

There's no hard rule about this. It totally depends on the girl. If "good wife material" girl means passive and submissive to you, then I totally see where you're coming from. Having lived in one of those Central EE countries for quite awhile, I've probably met girls in the identical situation to yours. They complain about the locals looking down on them, they dream about going farther west (without knowing what that really will bring), but in general they don't want to go back home. The best case is if there is a big community of expats from their own country. Then they sort of have an automatic social circle. So if your girl gets a job and adds friends from work to her friends from school, she can do OK. Anyway, she's not going to be too far from home. Worst case is you send her home to Mom every summer.

(08-14-2018 08:15 AM)DaveR Wrote:  

They usually choose to study in those countries because their first choice (usually: France, Italy, Spain, UK, USA, Canada, Greece, Australia) is either too expensive or they can't get a place.

This is a big factor. If she is dreaming about going farther west and you won't take her, then that's a big red flag.

[This Is Trouble]

I appreciate all of the responses and thoughts. In many ways, I've already realized what decision should be made. She's on the same page, too - just a matter of eventually pulling the trigger on a move back. I think the overall sentiment from everyone I've talked to is:

"It wouldn't be fun doing the family thing in a place where one of you isn't a local."

I've told her from day one I don't care to return to the States. We took a brief trip there this year, and she has no desire to move there either.

There are many more details I could elaborate on, but the real purpose of this thread was to simply put this thought out there - because I know I'm not the only one, judging by how many emails I get about the topic.

Thanks again, I'll keep everyone posted.

[debeguiled]

Great idea for a thread.

I guess we just have to accept that there isn't a life hack for every situation.

Sometimes you just have to make a choice.

[droughtmeat]

I personally even find moving a girl to another city within her own country a big issue. The girls that are truly capable of creating new social circles are either into team sports or are party girls, who will promote parties or nightlife events in the foreign country they move to. Those girls are exceptionally good at adapting to their new environment, they don't have issues with loneliness etc., but they're also usually more westernized if not fully westernized.

For the truly Eastern women moving to the West can be truly horrible. Just imagine their lives in the West: no friends, no interesting conversation EVER, yes they can learn the language but as they're not used to moving, putting themselves out there and getting used to the feeling of "failure" and inadequacy when speaking a foreign language, they probably won't speak. They never go out, only with you and at times with your friends who they can't really talk to either. -> extremely boring

That's why the two other options 1) staying in their own country where they're guaranteed to feel comfortable and enjoy themselves OR 2) leave you, get pursued by other men in your country and therefore feel "desired", "special" etc. are usually more appealing.

My father worked for an international company. All of his colleagues were from the West and they all worked in South America, Africa, Asia etc. Almost all of them met women in those countries and had kids and even got married. I can only remember 2 who didn't get divorced once the woman had obtained citizenship or simply got fed up.

I'm not saying it can't work, but it might even be tougher than a regular relationship

[Roosh]

The only exception to this problem is if both of you plan to permanently immigrate to the same country where you already have built roots. For example, both of my parents immigrated to the USA. They wanted to live there and so meeting each other was not unlike meeting a "local". It helped that most of my mom's family was here to help take the load of child raising for them. But raising children in a "waystation" country that is merely convenient for the moment, with no family? Forget it. The stress will be too high, straining the relationship, and you will never have a break from child raising. The trips to meeting both sets of grandparents will kill you on its own!

So off to Ukraine you go.

[semibaron]

From my experience, girls don't blossom outside there home countries.
Have seen this many times in Vienna.

As OP said:
- No local language
- No family
- No friends

On top of this, it's a lot more difficult for women to build a new social circle than for men.

In most cases there are only 2 options. Either you find a girl in your home country or you move to the girl's place. Exporting girls out of their home countries often fails.

[CleanSlate]

(08-15-2018 12:37 AM)semibaron Wrote:  

In most cases there are only 2 options. Either you find a girl in your home country or you move to the girl's place. Exporting girls out of their home countries often fails.

That's it in a nutshell. The exception to exporting girls out often failing is if her own country is at war, and their choice basically is to either flee or die. Even then, it usually only succeeds when both the man and woman are of the same or similar ethnic background (my parents from the Lebanese civil war, Vietnamese couples living in America after fleeing the Vietnam war, etc etc...)