[This Is Trouble]

(08-14-2018 07:29 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

The only exception to this problem is if both of you plan to permanently immigrate to the same country where you already have built roots. For example, both of my parents immigrated to the USA. They wanted to live there and so meeting each other was not unlike meeting a "local". It helped that most of my mom's family was here to help take the load of child raising for them. But raising children in a "waystation" country that is merely convenient for the moment, with no family? Forget it. The stress will be too high, straining the relationship, and you will never have a break from child raising. The trips to meeting both sets of grandparents will kill you on its own!

So off to Ukraine you go.

Yep, exactly my thoughts.

Honestly, I think after seeing Kiev in 2018 versus 2016, there is actually a chance the place could have some huge growth in coming years.

The high-end markets like Le Silpo are stocked with all sorts of interesting products, they've kicked out many of the older cashiers and replaced them with young hot girls, tons of new restaurants and cafes opened up.

If they can ever stop themselves from building apartment buildings that look like a a rotted asshole, they might have a real chance.

[JimBobsCooters]

Great post, have actually looked into this scenario and for me it's basically the "worst of both worlds" option.

Basically you both lose instead of one winning and one losing in the equation. Neither has your friends and family, quite probably neither of you has your native tongue, neither of you has local knowledge, neither of you has the protection that citizenship can provide, it's unlikely that either of you have a maximised earning potential either. Reality is you're basically sacrificing either of you getting those things which pretty much is the pathway to you both being miserable.

I think ultimately you either have a girl who is strong willed and confident enough to not become overly westernised (there are always going to be little things) and realistically if you have a strong social circle in your home country that is even easier to guard against. I think if you have a girl that you aren't confident in being able to take home then perhaps you need to question whether that girl is in general the right option, are you dating her or just what her location pushes her towards?

I also look at part of it as our responsibility to try and fix our motherlands and the only way to do that is if as many men as possible are bringing back women who display desirable traits, every beta who settles for the trash on offer in our countries is a man defying evolution and weakening the culture, by accepting and essentially encouraging feminism and its ilk you're weakening an entire country, these types of women need to be left childless, incapable of passing on their genetic weakness and the best way to do that is to find a superior woman who is the cultural opposite and will provide those values to the children as well to ensure the next generation is stronger and better.

[godzilla]

(08-14-2018 07:58 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

(08-14-2018 07:46 AM)Winston Wolfe Wrote:  

If someone put a gun to your head and you HAD to answer: "Where will you spend the rest of your days, starting right now?"

What would your answer be?

I think the reality is that most people would pick their home country. In most cases, both you and your girlfriend will each pick your respective home countries, if it would really come down to it. And I do think those are the only two choices you have. Picking a country neither of you are from can be fun at first, but in the long run it's a recipe for disaster for the reasons already mentioned.

So then it becomes a matter of who is going to make "the sacrifice" i.e. who is going to settle in the other's country? And this is without even taking into consideration the many advantages and disadvantages of both options, from both your perspectives.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. In most cases, there is no answer that truly satisfies the both of you. There certainly hasn't been for me, in several relationships with foreign girls.

My conclusion so far is that if money wasn't an issue, I would settle in her country and we would frequently visit my country and my family (at least twice a year for 1 month or longer). Of course this course of action comes with its own set of challenges, most of which can be solved by making enough money to support a lifestyle like this for your entire family. Tough, but not impossible.

Honestly, my answer would not be my home country.

I really have no desire to return to the States. I conduct my businesses there and that's plenty. Visiting is nice, full-time, no desire to.

If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably say based off of my travels and where I've been happiest....I'd say hers.

Your last paragraph is actually my ideal. In my perfect world, probably would base in her home country 9-10 months of the year. I make more than enough (location independently) that I can fund both of us traveling extensively. Do this for a few years and then settle there.

Maybe the answer is staring me right in the face of the gun you mentioned.

Saying you're never going to return to the United States at your age is probably unrealistic as well.

You might have noticed while your traveling that the majority of people that live abroad from America are actually retirees, not people looking for EE girls to marry.

Thats because taking an economic step back is not a wise decision for a young man who wants the best for his children and his family. Unless youre a multi - millionaire who can live off your savings, you'll want your children to have same economic opportunity you did in life, the same economic opportunity that afforded you the ability to travel to Eastern Europe.

You really want your children to grow up in say Poland Ukraine, where average income is 10--20 grand? You have no business connection there and you certainly will never be considered Polish. Your son will likely need your income just to travel to the Us to visit your family. Think about that.

Hate or love the US culturally. Its the best place to live economically speaking. And that's important to consider when starting a family.

[This Is Trouble]

I have an online business that makes very good money, as well as the beginnings of an import/export business out of a different part of Europe (olive oil). Financially and economically, moving abroad and becoming an entrepreneur has created much more future wealth than working at the 9-5.

I realize that they will not have the same economic opportunities, but that's a tough choice.

Do you raise them in the States where the opportunities are vast but yet culturally is in huge decline.

Or abroad where the opportunities aren't as good (I can prep them the best I can), but where culture and family unit is strong.

Frankly there doesn't seem to be a way around this.

[Riquelme]

Another factor to consider when raising a family outside the West is the education of your children. I sure wouldn't want my kids going through the Ukrainian or Thai education systems, for example.

Thankfully, a good quality Western education can be bought in many places around the world. There's a good international school in Kiev, but if you've got two kids it will probably run you $50k+ per year. Not a problem if you're​ making 6 figures plus, but certainly something that would put a big dent in a lot of guys' budgets.

Once your kids graduate high school with internationally recognised qualifications, they can use their Western passport to easily pursue university or other options in more economically favourable locations.

[This Is Trouble]

(08-15-2018 06:23 AM)Riquelme Wrote:  

Another factor to consider when raising a family outside the West is the education of your children. I sure wouldn't want my kids going through the Ukrainian or Thai education systems, for example.

Thankfully, a good quality Western education can be bought in many places around the world. There's a good international school in Kiev, but if you've got two kids it will probably run you $50k+ per year. Not a problem if you're​ making 6 figures plus, but certainly something that would put a big dent in a lot of guys' budgets.

Once your kids graduate high school with internationally recognised qualifications, they can use their Western passport to easily pursue university or other options in more economically favourable locations.

Honestly, do you think education in the west is that "good"?

These days you've got drag queens doing kindergarten presentations, teaching kids to be open and accepting.

This is what I mean when I say things are going downhill.

Truthfully, if I were to ever have kids abroad, you'd have to give some level of trust that the education systems would at least teach them the basics. And from a business and efficiency standpoint, you'd have to teach them at home the good parts of western culture.

[CleanSlate]

(08-15-2018 06:45 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

(08-15-2018 06:23 AM)Riquelme Wrote:  

Another factor to consider when raising a family outside the West is the education of your children. I sure wouldn't want my kids going through the Ukrainian or Thai education systems, for example.

Thankfully, a good quality Western education can be bought in many places around the world. There's a good international school in Kiev, but if you've got two kids it will probably run you $50k+ per year. Not a problem if you're​ making 6 figures plus, but certainly something that would put a big dent in a lot of guys' budgets.

Once your kids graduate high school with internationally recognised qualifications, they can use their Western passport to easily pursue university or other options in more economically favourable locations.

Honestly, do you think education in the west is that "good"?

These days you've got drag queens doing kindergarten presentations, teaching kids to be open and accepting.

This is what I mean when I say things are going downhill.

Truthfully, if I were to ever have kids abroad, you'd have to give some level of trust that the education systems would at least teach them the basics. And from a business and efficiency standpoint, you'd have to teach them at home the good parts of western culture.

This is exactly how I see it. Could not have said it better than you did.

How do you feel about homeschooling?

[This Is Trouble]

I think they need some level of socialization, so it's hard to say. If the rest of their life was set up so they had an easy time making friends and had plenty to do, could see it working. But realistically, I wouldn't have the patience to do it myself.

One other thing to consider regarding public education.

Assuming you are abroad and having children, I'm going to say you shouldn't unless you are making enough money to live far, far better off than the locals. Otherwise, yeah, I don't see the point. Going abroad, getting married, and having children - and teaching English to make $1,200 a month is stupid IMO.

But, assuming you got your shit together, you aren't sentencing your kids to going to school in some dump of a Soviet neighborhood. Ideally, you're living in the nicest neighborhoods in the country that have the best schools on top of it.

Ya hope.

[droughtmeat]

I personally would always opt for an international school if financially possible in the Eastern world. I think exposing them to Western culture at school, but still giving them different input at home and during afternoon activities, i.e. playing on a local youth sports team, will give them an optimal blend of both worlds and make them capable of adapting to any environment. In my opinion, that mix is really where the "sweet spot" is at.
If they have a strictly Eastern education, they will have a hard time getting accustomed to life elsewhere, if they choose to pursue a higher education or another career in other parts of the world. In addition, they run risk of having an "enlightening experience" when being exposed to the West at a late age. Meaning that they discover the liberties of the West and the totally different value system and this ultimately completely alters their personality. This is exactly what men fear when they bring an Eastern woman to the West. Children are not immune to that same effect and it will most-likely change their behavior too.

[stefpdt]

(08-15-2018 06:05 AM)godzilla Wrote:  

Saying you're never going to return to the United States at your age is probably unrealistic as well.

You might have noticed while your traveling that the majority of people that live abroad from America are actually retirees, not people looking for EE girls to marry.

Thats because taking an economic step back is not a wise decision for a young man who wants the best for his children and his family. Unless youre a multi - millionaire who can live off your savings, you'll want your children to have same economic opportunity you did in life, the same economic opportunity that afforded you the ability to travel to Eastern Europe.

You really want your children to grow up in say Poland Ukraine, where average income is 10--20 grand? You have no business connection there and you certainly will never be considered Polish. Your son will likely need your income just to travel to the Us to visit your family. Think about that.

Hate or love the US culturally. Its the best place to live economically speaking. And that's important to consider when starting a family.

The US is the best economic market, but you don't have to actually live in the U.S. to make your money there.

We live in a new age where services are available to handle nearly every aspect of running your business.

If you want to sell to Americans, you can have a merchant account in the States, a website hosted in Northern California, and remote employees in Estonia, meanwhile you're working out of an office in Medellin (with a hot personal assistant).

As one fellow forum member told me, "Anyone can make 7 figures selling info products to Americans 100% online."

The tricky thing is the part where you have kids. We're good at marketing products to Westerners because we've actually grown up in America. This is the biggest benefit of being raised in America (actually being able to relate and communicate with Westerners who have high consumer spending power).

How do you transfer this benefit to your children without forcing them to grow up in America?

[CleanSlate]

(08-15-2018 06:58 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

I think they need some level of socialization, so it's hard to say. If the rest of their life was set up so they had an easy time making friends and had plenty to do, could see it working. But realistically, I wouldn't have the patience to do it myself.

One other thing to consider regarding public education.

Assuming you are abroad and having children, I'm going to say you shouldn't unless you are making enough money to live far, far better off than the locals. Otherwise, yeah, I don't see the point. Going abroad, getting married, and having children - and teaching English to make $1,200 a month is stupid IMO.

But, assuming you got your shit together, you aren't sentencing your kids to going to school in some dump of a Soviet neighborhood. Ideally, you're living in the nicest neighborhoods in the country that have the best schools on top of it.

Ya hope.

Good thoughts. I also earn enough money to give my future kids a cut above what locals can provide (purely based on average income per capita).

Socialization is not the only concern I have about homeschooling. My question is how can my kids prove their education gained from homeschooling in order to gain access to higher education and jobs worldwide? Maybe some sort of placement test or something? I have a feeling this deserves its own thread, though.

[Feldeinsamkeit]

(08-15-2018 07:29 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

(08-15-2018 06:58 AM)This Is Trouble Wrote:  

I think they need some level of socialization, so it's hard to say. If the rest of their life was set up so they had an easy time making friends and had plenty to do, could see it working. But realistically, I wouldn't have the patience to do it myself.

One other thing to consider regarding public education.

Assuming you are abroad and having children, I'm going to say you shouldn't unless you are making enough money to live far, far better off than the locals. Otherwise, yeah, I don't see the point. Going abroad, getting married, and having children - and teaching English to make $1,200 a month is stupid IMO.

But, assuming you got your shit together, you aren't sentencing your kids to going to school in some dump of a Soviet neighborhood. Ideally, you're living in the nicest neighborhoods in the country that have the best schools on top of it.

Ya hope.

Good thoughts. I also earn enough money to give my future kids a cut above what locals can provide (purely based on average income per capita).

Socialization is not the only concern I have about homeschooling. My question is how can my kids prove their education gained from homeschooling in order to gain access to higher education and jobs worldwide? Maybe some sort of placement test or something? I have a feeling this deserves its own thread, though.

An important consideration here not touched upon is the sexual market place value of women relative to men in the country that you're considering moving to. Taking her to a country where women are priced on average higher than men (extreme case: the Anglosphere) is going to lead to your woman thinking that she can maybe do better than you, especially so if you've already traded up in terms of the best woman you would have got in your home Western country.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(08-14-2018 07:04 AM)Suits Wrote:  

I had a very rewarding relationship with a Chinese women

[Riquelme]

I can only speak from personal experience. In the UK, the top private schools are outstanding. The state schools vary from decent to awful. The best international schools are comparable to private schools in the UK and they are much less infected with SJW nonsense than state schools. Don't have experience of the US system, but I get the impression it's no great shakes and full of the aforementioned nonsense.

I recently spent two days in an EE state school in an affluent neighbourhood. The difference is night and day compared to what's on offer at international schools. Those local kids will be at a huge disadvantage versus their peers at the international school down the road.

[Cr33pin]

Um.... first off I was still in Kiev when you decided to leave me there broken hearted that October.

Secondly this is a solid topic but just like many of lifes great dilemmas there is no real answer. You just make a choice based on the best of you abilities an go with it and make it work. Moving to your home country is going to present its own set of problems, moving to her home country is going to present its own set of problems, moving some where in the middle is going to present its own set of problems. You along with her just need to sit down and list out the pros and cons of each an then try to make a choice that seems the best for what you want out of life.... assuming you are still interested in making that life with her.

The part about raising a family somewhere without family is YUGE. I also have thought pretty deeply on this topic as I am wanting to start a family sometime in the near future yet..... I want nothing to do with my birth family or America in general, especially when it comes to my future children. So that certainly puts one in a odd place. Its freeing to not want much to do with my family and home country, its also a bit sad that sometimes it feels like I don't really have these things. However for the past month and until October I am back in my lame hometown surrounded by my lame family and its the starkest of reminders of what I want from life and what I don't want any part of. I think it all just falls back onto making decisions an not looking back...

[yankeetravels]

I have to say I think this is one of the more important discussions I've seen in the travel section in quite a while with people at different points in their life chiming in. Truthfully, like I said before, there doesn't seem to be a 100% solid answer. It's almost like you're damned if you and damned if you don't with what we want as men. Some choices do come with both positives and negatives.

Honestly, the sentiment I seem to hear from expats and even other western guys on the fence about making a move is that ultimately, the choice we have to make is that do we want better women in a stronger family environment or do we want to have more money? I really don't think there is a true way around that choice for a lot of guys unless they're making exceptional location independent income. I've seen men give up the income for women and family, and I've had a couple redpill guys tell me they want to stick it out in the west because the income potential is too great to pass up there.

I wouldn't dismiss the English thing altogether though. I personally make a decent side hustle income off of that in the states for what I put in and for some guys, it has been at least a good way to make the initial move east. There are other guys that have moved up in that industry (granted usually in China or northern Asia) that make more than some guys do in the west. Even at the bottom, you can live off English for a bit, especially if you have already had some savings stacked up, but I understand the sentiment of not wanting to make that a permanent career.

Luckily, a more online world gives us more options abroad than we have had before. I don't see that trend going away anytime soon for more jobs online. The education aspect is a legitimate concern though, but it seems to be a double edged sword. We say the west still has the best in the world but also say it's too infested with left propaganda. I think again, men are going to have to pick their poison with this in what they want for their children, because even home schooling can have downsides like less socialization in an already more isolated world.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there are positives and negatives to every aspect being discussed here and the forum doesn't seem to truly have an answer because believe it or not, we do have diverse backgrounds with guys going different directions in how to give themselves the best life. Even with western income, cost of living absolutely needs to be taken into consideration, because it probably would cost me almost double to live in my part of the US than almost any Asian city besides Tokyo and Singapore. So that means double the income needs to be made.

I'll say it from my own perspective as a 20's guy. Is it worth not going to Asia and giving up women there and possibly a better life to make a little more money where I am? Truthfully, I don't know. I just know I definitely prefer the women over there, but the arguments for more money in the states have been heard and are definitely true in my case at this moment. There's going to be a point where men have to draw a line in the sand and decide which they prefer if they have no guarantees. Trouble seems to have already made this decision by building a remote business and going east, and I commend him for that and wish him luck.

Who knows? The tide very well may change when thinking of children by the time men here who start to have children have theirs grow up. Some of us may not even want marriage and children at the end of the day. God knows I'm still very undecided about that and Trouble may change his mind about settling down in the future too for all we know.

[dodo8]

The concept of going to less developed countries to get a more "innocent" girl is so flawed. Women will always be women, if anything the west is a good test for a girls character. If you meet a girl that's from a less well off country you won't really be seeing her true self more so you will be seeing what she shows off cause she is in a bad situation. In the west and more well off countries girls will act how they really want to, you're getting a clearer picture of how a girl really is. So for this reason even though the west is shitty sometimes I still think it can be a better place to meet more genuine women.

[BlackFriar]

There is a foodie "Festival of Nations" a few weekends from now, in St. Louis, Mo. This is going to be a liberal hipster fest. But I am going to try to turn a tradgety into a triumph and find the foreigners that are already here. I am not worried about marriage. I think banging ones that are already here, might be a good option....instead of wanting to import them and worry about the mess that comes from all of that.

[droughtmeat]

(08-15-2018 01:37 PM)dodo8 Wrote:  

The concept of going to less developed countries to get a more "innocent" girl is so flawed. Women will always be women, if anything the west is a good test for a girls character. If you meet a girl that's from a less well off country you won't really be seeing her true self more so you will be seeing what she shows off cause she is in a bad situation. In the west and more well off countries girls will act how they really want to, you're getting a clearer picture of how a girl really is. So for this reason even though the west is shitty sometimes I still think it can be a better place to meet more genuine women.

Yes, I agree with the idea that the West is basically a test to see who they really are.
I tried to imagine life for any good looking girl in the West. This is how I envision it with the roles reserved and you as the man being treated by women the way men treat girls here:

You wake up in the morning, check your phone, you have 15 notifications: 5 tinder messages from girls with really nice bodies trying to make you laugh in the messages, 3 missed calls from your ex-girlfriend, 1 long whatsapp voice message from a chick you met last week but she was drunk when sending the message. In the message she tells you how handsome she thinks you are and that she really wants you to just give her a chance to see you again. She thinks you're very special. The rest are messages from other women.

Once you get up you take a selfie in front a dirty bathroom mirror. You upload the picture on facebook , which will generate about 120 likes over the course of the day and comments from girls saying that you are an extremely handsome man.

Next up a girl from abroad sends you a message on facebook. She says that you're exceptionally handsome and that she would like to see you. She offers to pay for your flight to her country and will take care of all the other expenses too. If you ever lost your ambition, you could live with her, she would shed tears of joy over you living off of her money.

At night at the club there are a lot of women with great bodies. They go to the gym regularly and count their calories just to impress you. One of them has the guts to approach you, she recently attended a bootcamp to learn how to talk to men, it cost 2000 bucks for 3 days, she is extremely nervous and doesn't manage to talk to you properly. She offers to buy you a drink. Then she regains her composure and you guys end up kissing and you give her your number.
She immediately goes back to her friends that give her high fives and hugs, she even creates a thread in an online forum and tells other women about what happened...some of them feel inspired...others think it's a hoax, they don't believe it's possible to talk to a man like you...

You simply go to sleep and call it a normal day

[This Is Trouble]

^ I weep for future generations...

[Off The Reservation]

(08-15-2018 01:37 PM)dodo8 Wrote:  

The concept of going to less developed countries to get a more "innocent" girl is so flawed. Women will always be women, if anything the west is a good test for a girls character. If you meet a girl that's from a less well off country you won't really be seeing her true self more so you will be seeing what she shows off cause she is in a bad situation. In the west and more well off countries girls will act how they really want to, you're getting a clearer picture of how a girl really is. So for this reason even though the west is shitty sometimes I still think it can be a better place to meet more genuine women.

Best "first post" of the year.

[scotian]

I've done fairly well with Latinas in Canada, met them mostly online but also at Latin bars and events, in the past year I've banged a few from various Latin countries and they all tell me that they like the fact that they can speak Spanish with me and that I can dance. All of them want to date local Canadian dudes but many of them are shy/nervous about the language barrier and cultural differences but since I speak the language and understand their culture, it isn't much of a problem. I think it's a solid strategy; go live in whatever country you want to learn the language and culture then come back home and target those girls specifically.

I've spent over two years in Latin America (mostly Colombia) and thought about bringing a chica back home but as has been mentioned in this thread, it's not easy to take a girl away from her culture and family. If she is already in your country then she's done all of the hard work herself and if she's been there for awhile then she's likely gotten over the home sickness part and wants to stay. Most of the girls I dated love Canada and have no desire to go back home except to visit, of course they miss certain things but they seem to enjoy life in a developed country.

The down side of course is that these girls tend to be a point or two less attractive and generally a few years older than the ones I bang in Colombia, around 26-34 in Canada instead of my usual 18-24 down there jajajaja.

[Lino]

@Scotian: what about the attitude of these latina in Canada? Talking about the ones who spent a few years there already.

When I was in London I banged a few brasilian girls, the ones who just arrived were a delight. They were not comfortable yet with the culture and it was a big plus for me to know a bit about the brasilian culture, being able to communicate with them in their native language (with my extremely basic portuguese) was also a plus.

However, the ones who were in London since a few years were ALL totally westernized and some of them became actually way more entitled than native english women. IMO finding an attractive brazilian who is in the west since many years and who kept her « qualities » is exceptional, I never met any.

The ones in the the 30+ range were either single moms entitled and feminists, either career women. Mind you, even the ugly ones became entitled.

It’s a bit tricky because on one hand they have to be able to adapt to their new environment so becoming more westernised in the process is normal. I think finding one who arrived in her early 20’s, is in the west since 5 or 10 years and is still traditional and submissive is impossible.

On a side note some people misunderstand « submissive », even on this forum some members have a negative definition of it. To me it doesn’t mean she is only allowed to clean, cook and fuck you. It is more a feminine trait of being non argumentative, doing all she can to keep a family united and harmonious and respecting you as a man.

[godzilla]

I think part of being on the forum is a desire to have fun and experience other cultures. As much as people talk about settling down with a nice girl, not many men are trying to do that a young age.

Otherwise, I think an alternative purposal would be to find a girl in Middle America. It gets mentioned all the time on here but not many will follow through with it. Frankly, it wouldn't be much fun for someone whose been traveling the world. However, despite obesity issues, there are a lot of nice, conservative females out there.

Consider this as well, people in Middle America get married younger, have higher incomes, have higher birth rates, and lower rates of alcoholism then anywhere in Eastern Europe. Its also inexpensive with a lot of polite, peaceful people.

[Bikal]

(08-16-2018 05:00 AM)Lino Wrote:  

The ones in the the 30+ range were ... career women.

Personally I'm of the opinion that when I hit the wall as it were and want to settle down, a career woman would be a good choice as she should have not only advanced quite far, hopefully, but should have significant savings to match my own, again hopefully, to make a larger house purchase easier and when we have kids, easier to fund private school as while I can afford to fund it all myself, I wouldn't mind a woman who works in a good job, contributing to costs.

Although I could be completely wrong altogether and I'll end up with a busted feminazi who is feckless and doesn't want to work after the birth of her kids.