Chalk it to the Game my friend. You've had 2 dates in a relatively short span... So you've got them coming out. Keep working... and you'll be screwing SOON!
After my latest date, I really feel like giving up.
Quote: (06-04-2018 03:32 PM)Mess O. Wrote:This explains a lot.
I met her on OkCupid, she's 34, and I set up....
- One planet orbiting a star. Billions of stars in the galaxy. Billions of galaxies in the universe. Approach.
#BallsWin
I've been getting a bit of improvement in the age range. Shit, I was yankin' in, like, the 38-42 crowd. I sure got a problem.
"The majority of women over 30 are playing a very particular game, namely, how many resources can I extract out of men while my SMV is plummeting?"
There's that, and then there's a crop of early 30s women I seem to keep running into who are basically put together (not busted-ugly or trainwrecks in life) who have intimacy issues or poor girl game. These aren't girls who spent their 20s rejecting guys and sleeping around thinking no one was good enough for them; they are the ones who couldn't master the mechanics of getting their relationships to work.
I know, boo-hoo. But there's a certain amount of pathos to these cases I am sympathetic to; like many of us here, they never really had good models of how to do things with the opposite sex, and probably find their single status through their 30s to be mysterious.
Anyway, I throw this out there to posit that it's just as likely the OP's "I'm not feeling this" came with a girl like this as with some burned-out carousel rider whose standards are too high.
There's that, and then there's a crop of early 30s women I seem to keep running into who are basically put together (not busted-ugly or trainwrecks in life) who have intimacy issues or poor girl game. These aren't girls who spent their 20s rejecting guys and sleeping around thinking no one was good enough for them; they are the ones who couldn't master the mechanics of getting their relationships to work.
I know, boo-hoo. But there's a certain amount of pathos to these cases I am sympathetic to; like many of us here, they never really had good models of how to do things with the opposite sex, and probably find their single status through their 30s to be mysterious.
Anyway, I throw this out there to posit that it's just as likely the OP's "I'm not feeling this" came with a girl like this as with some burned-out carousel rider whose standards are too high.
I think the whole KINO and "kiss close" strategies of the game community are deeply flawed.
It's true women like aggressive men and are attracted to men's desire per se. But you already have this going for you when you go out. They already know you're into them.
What the "aggressive pickup" mode of thinking doesn't consider is that there is a delicate push-pull element to dating they call "the mating dance." If all you do is push, you don't give the other person the chance to respond. And they resent you or see you as too needy or desperate.
This works both ways. Men also resent women who come on too strong. People need to calibrate. Sometimes that take a few dates. Sometimes even longer.
If you see a woman closing off her body language, it's often just best to pull back and go with the flow. Rather than coming on strong and leaving her thinking "Ugh. He wouldn't let me alone" you can get her possibly thinking "Hm -- wonder if he liked me? He never even touched me!" This is a better power move.
In other words, sometimes pulling away makes you the one who "leads" in the dance. And sometimes really pulling away makes you king (i.e. "Why didn't he call me?").
Most of my most successful pickups when I was younger happened when I already had a girlfriend and had no use for the girl I was picking up. I guess I was sending out "I don't give a fuck" signals and that drew them in. Hell, sometimes I got the attention of Girl #2 by complaining about Girl #1 and not paying Girl #2 ANY physical mind. Call it the anti-KINO.
As I said, the KINO concept needs to be re-examined. Maybe it works if the man and woman are already bursting with sexual tension (or are drunk). But for the average "Get to know you" date, it can be disastrous and off-putting -- the dating equivalent of the stranger you meet out shopping who doesn't know when to end the conversation.
It's true women like aggressive men and are attracted to men's desire per se. But you already have this going for you when you go out. They already know you're into them.
What the "aggressive pickup" mode of thinking doesn't consider is that there is a delicate push-pull element to dating they call "the mating dance." If all you do is push, you don't give the other person the chance to respond. And they resent you or see you as too needy or desperate.
This works both ways. Men also resent women who come on too strong. People need to calibrate. Sometimes that take a few dates. Sometimes even longer.
If you see a woman closing off her body language, it's often just best to pull back and go with the flow. Rather than coming on strong and leaving her thinking "Ugh. He wouldn't let me alone" you can get her possibly thinking "Hm -- wonder if he liked me? He never even touched me!" This is a better power move.
In other words, sometimes pulling away makes you the one who "leads" in the dance. And sometimes really pulling away makes you king (i.e. "Why didn't he call me?").
Most of my most successful pickups when I was younger happened when I already had a girlfriend and had no use for the girl I was picking up. I guess I was sending out "I don't give a fuck" signals and that drew them in. Hell, sometimes I got the attention of Girl #2 by complaining about Girl #1 and not paying Girl #2 ANY physical mind. Call it the anti-KINO.
As I said, the KINO concept needs to be re-examined. Maybe it works if the man and woman are already bursting with sexual tension (or are drunk). But for the average "Get to know you" date, it can be disastrous and off-putting -- the dating equivalent of the stranger you meet out shopping who doesn't know when to end the conversation.
Well, next time around (whenever the hell that proves to be), I'll tone it way back, as a strong consensus we've reached here is that my end was just too strong, and the balance was way off.
Quote: (06-04-2018 03:20 PM)Mess O. Wrote:
In the same situation, how would you have responded to that text? I was trying to convey an indifferent attitude, given how so many of the 'past-date' stories I've been hearing from women describe these dudes pulling ultra-needy, agitating behavior in response to the rejection, so I at least didn't want to be grouped in that category.
Why do you want to convey an indifferent attitude when it's obvious this prompted you to make a post?
You can be indifferent when you're ahead and she is into you. That inertia gets her mind going crazy when she is working for your favour.
Truly indifferent would be not responding.
This is not the time to be stoic. You could stir up some emotions but the time to do that was during the interaction.
Were you memorable? Did she just find you hot?
She is not 'ready'. You can assume this to be game over or just a bump in the road.
I would just take responsibility as per my previous text.
You can fuck your game up in many ways. Occasionally, it can be your lack of absorbing responsibility and this will make her rationalize negatively, as here.
Refer to my previous text.
Vulnerable: "look, I couldn't control myself and it's out of character but can you blame me? I would like to see you again but if you're not ready, that's fine."
Player-ish: "that's a shame, I was about to buy us matching mugs and jumpers for our new place!"
Either way, you just forget about her after these texts and don't respond for a day or two. Let her simmer, assuming she responds.
A lot depends on your game beforehand, how much trust/comfort you build (not enough it seems) and your 'value' i.e. how much you get her panties wet.
Value offsets trust/comfort so figure out how much leeway you have and when you don't have enough, compliment it with some attraction building.
Either way, it's too late now, learn from your mistakes and go forth.
Never be rigid, women are never standard. Textbook game works for 80% of getting laid and the rest of the women are standard deviations off it and that's where good game comes in.
Quote: (06-05-2018 01:24 AM)BadgerHut Wrote:
"The majority of women over 30 are playing a very particular game, namely, how many resources can I extract out of men while my SMV is plummeting?"
There's that, and then there's a crop of early 30s women I seem to keep running into who are basically put together (not busted-ugly or trainwrecks in life) who have intimacy issues or poor girl game. These aren't girls who spent their 20s rejecting guys and sleeping around thinking no one was good enough for them; they are the ones who couldn't master the mechanics of getting their relationships to work.
I know, boo-hoo. But there's a certain amount of pathos to these cases I am sympathetic to; like many of us here, they never really had good models of how to do things with the opposite sex, and probably find their single status through their 30s to be mysterious.
Anyway, I throw this out there to posit that it's just as likely the OP's "I'm not feeling this" came with a girl like this as with some burned-out carousel rider whose standards are too high.
This is good stuff, but there is one more dimension here. These women in their thirties often have busy lives where they're under a bit too much stress. They reject guys who seem needy, or demanding, or like they'll be a "responsibility."
I wouldn't take this personality. When I was in my early twenties, I was like these women. I was just plain busy and turned away several extremely hot girls because they made demands.
The problem is that once someone gets into the "annoying" slot of your mind, it's very hard to put them back into the "desirable" slot -- even if they're hot and have a 40DD bra (actual example for me).
This is again why I de-emphasied the KINO element of dating in my last post and think being laid back is a better method.
I really feel a lot of that classic game literature (Mystery, Neil Strauss) was written as a way to attract half-drunk party girls and not as a way to pique the interest of women who have to be up at 6 a.m. the next day to face a myriad of work issues.
By the way, I've made the same error the O.P. made. I had a woman seriously interested until I pushed things too hard too soon and got a similar reply. I'd been reading Neil Strauss and thinking about "escalation," which I think messed me up. In dating, less is often more.
Quote: (06-05-2018 03:19 AM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:
The problem is that once someone gets into the "annoying" slot of your mind, it's very hard to put them back into the "desirable" slot -- even if they're hot and have a 40DD bra (actual example for me).
Now this sounds like an interesting story.
I feel ya OP. Another problen with these American hos nowadays is they're just not really excited to go on a date with a guy, and when things do get physical there's no spark in their eye. It's just another Monday for them. "I went on a Tinder date with so and so, he tried to kiss me and I was like meh". So it's like you're putting in 100% effort and she ain't even meeting you halfway ![[Image: lol.gif]](https://rooshvforum.network/images/smilies/new/lol.gif)
These dating apps and social media have sucked all the fun and excitement that came with sexual dynamics. But yea, "keep it up!"
These dating apps and social media have sucked all the fun and excitement that came with sexual dynamics. But yea, "keep it up!"
Guy I know is a magistrate in the London courts.
He tells me about the insane bullshit and lying he sees from otherwise respectable women in his court room. One women caught offending on camera argued that she herself had filmed the footage of the crime from behind the Camera and someone who didn't like her had edited her head onto the body of the real criminal.
I gave him a speech about how some women are like arcade machines that have had their covers taken off and been smashed to pieces, pissed on and then rewired and had an immaculate cover put back on on them.
They still flash their lights in the right sequence and ask you for money, they still seem relatively normal, but then when they go nuts, take your money and electrocute you, you have every right to ask "what the fuck happened there?"
I know chicks who call the police punching themselves, claiming their boyfriend (calmly filming it on his phone) is assaulting them. The next week they've blocked any reminders and they're with another unsuspecting sap.
One girl took alot of drugs, fucked everything every single day, got fired from 10 jobs in one year, fucked a mate around, and caught HIV. She ended up with a belly, sagging physique and a long list of people who hated her. Now she's been through so much government benefit money and sponsored wellness and yoga retreats that she looks great, dresses great, posts every day several pictures of her in a bikini and goes on about "self-care, self-love" "giving, nurturing, caring for Mother Earth" and is being hounded on instagram/fb etc. by new men.
Another girl went through three men, two bosses, endless claims of physically abusing boyfriends -- she got my mate to tie her up and act out rape fantasies before she head butted a radiator and called the police on him. Almost worked.
I managed her and she was batshit insane.
Cue all her chickens coming home to roost and a year of "mental health awareness" and "self care" posts with her face and body artfully covered up in her grainy black and white pics taken in her squat.
Now she's back - looking hot and wearing nothing in her daily pics taken with a great phone or in high end restaurants with mystery picture takers .
Ask yourself OP..
There are women out there who have your disappointing date's number from the past.
From dealing with her bullshit at work or having front row seats to her craziness in their social circle.
Ask yourself what these ex-friends would have to say about this woman and your strange dating experience.
Don't think they'd be surprised..
Sure, identify the weaknesses in your game and work on them.
But my hunch is you met a dickhead woman with a dickhead past who had a good enough re-spray that it it didn't stand out too much initially.
He tells me about the insane bullshit and lying he sees from otherwise respectable women in his court room. One women caught offending on camera argued that she herself had filmed the footage of the crime from behind the Camera and someone who didn't like her had edited her head onto the body of the real criminal.
I gave him a speech about how some women are like arcade machines that have had their covers taken off and been smashed to pieces, pissed on and then rewired and had an immaculate cover put back on on them.
They still flash their lights in the right sequence and ask you for money, they still seem relatively normal, but then when they go nuts, take your money and electrocute you, you have every right to ask "what the fuck happened there?"
I know chicks who call the police punching themselves, claiming their boyfriend (calmly filming it on his phone) is assaulting them. The next week they've blocked any reminders and they're with another unsuspecting sap.
One girl took alot of drugs, fucked everything every single day, got fired from 10 jobs in one year, fucked a mate around, and caught HIV. She ended up with a belly, sagging physique and a long list of people who hated her. Now she's been through so much government benefit money and sponsored wellness and yoga retreats that she looks great, dresses great, posts every day several pictures of her in a bikini and goes on about "self-care, self-love" "giving, nurturing, caring for Mother Earth" and is being hounded on instagram/fb etc. by new men.
Another girl went through three men, two bosses, endless claims of physically abusing boyfriends -- she got my mate to tie her up and act out rape fantasies before she head butted a radiator and called the police on him. Almost worked.
I managed her and she was batshit insane.
Cue all her chickens coming home to roost and a year of "mental health awareness" and "self care" posts with her face and body artfully covered up in her grainy black and white pics taken in her squat.
Now she's back - looking hot and wearing nothing in her daily pics taken with a great phone or in high end restaurants with mystery picture takers .
Ask yourself OP..
There are women out there who have your disappointing date's number from the past.
From dealing with her bullshit at work or having front row seats to her craziness in their social circle.
Ask yourself what these ex-friends would have to say about this woman and your strange dating experience.
Don't think they'd be surprised..
Sure, identify the weaknesses in your game and work on them.
But my hunch is you met a dickhead woman with a dickhead past who had a good enough re-spray that it it didn't stand out too much initially.
Welcome to dating, some girls are flakes, some girls are prudes, some girls are cool chicks but you two just don't vibe. It's life move on and go on your next date, you'll probably have a lot more like this
You have to be a psychopath to effectively deal with western women anymore. Unfortunately whatever humanity you have will be used against you. I've made peace with it and I don't care anymore. I see them for what they are. Even average white girls have huge egos here I plan on fishing in different seas.
This is the single most demotivating thing in game. Feeling like it went well and then getting ghosted.
I've had a similar date with a woman who even said as she was about to leave "I hope to see you again". Let's just say that hope dies last.
If I may say two things about the technical part: 1) definitely kino on the date, with spikes, varying the tempo and the sexuality. We all get that wrong often. And 2) I'm not fond of your response. I can understand why, but it was a clear sign that you didn't take it well at all. She invested enough to give you an explanation, that's very rare. It may be insignificant for the end result, but you could be more real and honestly express yourself at that point.
A girl may disappear at any time, no matter what happened up to that point, for no obvious reason. That's the only given I've found in game. The sooner a man realizes and accepts it, the sooner he will be free of expectation and therefore disappointment.
I've had a similar date with a woman who even said as she was about to leave "I hope to see you again". Let's just say that hope dies last.
If I may say two things about the technical part: 1) definitely kino on the date, with spikes, varying the tempo and the sexuality. We all get that wrong often. And 2) I'm not fond of your response. I can understand why, but it was a clear sign that you didn't take it well at all. She invested enough to give you an explanation, that's very rare. It may be insignificant for the end result, but you could be more real and honestly express yourself at that point.
A girl may disappear at any time, no matter what happened up to that point, for no obvious reason. That's the only given I've found in game. The sooner a man realizes and accepts it, the sooner he will be free of expectation and therefore disappointment.
If it won't matter in 30 years, it doesn't matter now.
My thoughts and memoirs: yourfriendtrent.wordpress.com
Quote: (06-05-2018 03:20 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:
You have to be a psychopath to effectively deal with western women anymore. Unfortunately whatever humanity you have will be used against you. I've made peace with it and I don't care anymore. I see them for what they are. Even average white girls have huge egos here I plan on fishing in different seas.
"Unfortunately whatever humanity you have will be used against you."
That's exactly what it's like. Great way to put it Disco. It's like they feel they need to put you in your place somehow for actually having some kind of emotional optimism.
I don't understand how you can be this infatuated with a 34 years old? I mean I would understand if she was a dime in her early 20s but man she's way past it and has to be really an exception for your post to make sense to me.
Otherwise great thread. Happens a lot especially with hotter girls and when I start putting them on a pedestal instead of running my usual game. I have come to expect this regardless of my approach with hotter girls as they have a lineup of suitors. If I don't get the bang on the first date then I consider it a write-off. To be honest I don't have the energy to invest in those girls beyond a one night stand as they really require a certain lifestyle to maintain them
Otherwise great thread. Happens a lot especially with hotter girls and when I start putting them on a pedestal instead of running my usual game. I have come to expect this regardless of my approach with hotter girls as they have a lineup of suitors. If I don't get the bang on the first date then I consider it a write-off. To be honest I don't have the energy to invest in those girls beyond a one night stand as they really require a certain lifestyle to maintain them
I still keep trying to get my mind around why she went along with the finale, so thoroughly and so passionately. Why not just get the fuck in her car and take off, if she "wasn't feeling it"?
Quote: (06-05-2018 09:27 PM)syrianguy Wrote:
I don't understand how you can be this infatuated with a 34 years old? I mean I would understand if she was a dime in her early 20s but man she's way past it and has to be really an exception for your post to make sense to me.
I have met plenty of still stunning women at 34, and know that there is plenty of warpigs in early 20s...
I think we would have to see the pic of the girl in order to make an assessment like that. Since its against the rules, I go along with OP, that she is hot, or at least hotter than what he is used to touch.
Could be dozens of reasons.
She was feeling it but
she felt like a slut after
someone made her a better offer
she remembered her dead dog or whatever
you were being needy before and she felt some dread
She wasn't that into it but did it anyway because
she didn't want to make a scene
you're bigger than her
she thought she would get into as things progressed
she felt you needed a reward for a good date
Who knows, it can be one thing or dozens. Don't listen to what women say read their actions and body language. It doesn't matter anyway, learn what you can and be done with it. She doesnt like you that much. Not worth stressing over.
She was feeling it but
she felt like a slut after
someone made her a better offer
she remembered her dead dog or whatever
you were being needy before and she felt some dread
She wasn't that into it but did it anyway because
she didn't want to make a scene
you're bigger than her
she thought she would get into as things progressed
she felt you needed a reward for a good date
Who knows, it can be one thing or dozens. Don't listen to what women say read their actions and body language. It doesn't matter anyway, learn what you can and be done with it. She doesnt like you that much. Not worth stressing over.
I think if you are having a passionate make-out then you might as well reveal your hand and escalate all the way until you get a firm no. Forget playing it cool, second date might as well be dead anyway
Quote: (06-05-2018 09:27 PM)syrianguy Wrote:
I don't understand how you can be this infatuated with a 34 years old? I mean I would understand if she was a dime in her early 20s but man she's way past it and has to be really an exception for your post to make sense to me.
Otherwise great thread. Happens a lot especially with hotter girls and when I start putting them on a pedestal instead of running my usual game. I have come to expect this regardless of my approach with hotter girls as they have a lineup of suitors. If I don't get the bang on the first date then I consider it a write-off. To be honest I don't have the energy to invest in those girls beyond a one night stand as they really require a certain lifestyle to maintain them
I'm not infatuated, I'm just getting sick of this shit.
Quote: (06-05-2018 09:38 PM)Rocha Wrote:
Quote: (06-05-2018 09:27 PM)syrianguy Wrote:
I don't understand how you can be this infatuated with a 34 years old? I mean I would understand if she was a dime in her early 20s but man she's way past it and has to be really an exception for your post to make sense to me.
I have met plenty of still stunning women at 34, and know that there is plenty of warpigs in early 20s...
I think we would have to see the pic of the girl in order to make an assessment like that. Since its against the rules, I go along with OP, that she is hot, or at least hotter than what he is used to touch.
Yeah, regarding her look, what took me was how she looked much better than her pictures a rare occurrence in itself.
Quote: (06-05-2018 07:03 PM)BadgerHut Wrote:
Quote: (06-05-2018 03:20 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:
You have to be a psychopath to effectively deal with western women anymore. Unfortunately whatever humanity you have will be used against you. I've made peace with it and I don't care anymore. I see them for what they are. Even average white girls have huge egos here I plan on fishing in different seas.
"Unfortunately whatever humanity you have will be used against you."
That's exactly what it's like. Great way to put it Disco. It's like they feel they need to put you in your place somehow for actually having some kind of emotional optimism.
Its interesting.
I try and keep developing competitive game and observations like these separate.
A trend I've noticed recently is that I'm dealing with women that are like firehoses of emotion on full bore but with the cap on. What are these feelings causing the hoses to snake around like crazy across the floor?
They spend their entire time on vapid little gadgets that have only existed for 10 years in the entire span of human history. Those gadgets make them feel like shit.
They don't plan their lives, they don't use logic much, they won't ever admit fault on anything, they don't respond to logic, they play victim if their actions backfire, the idea of personal responsibility for what is happening around them is entirely alien to them.
What does that lead to?
These women are full of feelings of insignificance, confusion, non-direction, low self worth, self- hatred and the resultant feelings of animosity to the world at large.
Their only consolation is their looks and the power that their looks give them.
Women can't beat people up, intimidate people, browbeat people, they can't wrestle a dog in chainmail or hunt wild animals only dogs and knives (some guys I know do).
Their only possible violent outlet is in friendship, relationships and dating.
Their looks give them a chance to bring guys into their orbit and finally they have an outlet for their hatred and craziness: You.
The way I'm viewing chicks at the moment is as hateful people looking for any chance to harm people if they can get an opening.
Dating life just started making sense to me.
-------------------------------------
Go slow on these dates can work.
First meet - short, light, fun, 60 minutes. no kiss.
Second meet - slightly longer, 90 minutes, kino escalation of course, the kiss, dry - without tongue- just brushing lips.
Maybe just brush her body lightly with hands but not lingering anywhere. Break kiss first of course, give her a complimentary look (even if she's a shit kisser) and end date with "well I had a good time", leave any follow up dates un-discussed or at least un-confirmed.
Mileage may vary or maybe I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here.
Regardless I have found many times that if she initiates a passionate make out and I go along with it I have broken frame, gone with hers and I don't get the next date.
If I keep my go-slow frame I get the repeat bang from later dates.
It might be another tactic if you get a sense of deja vu on a future date.
Just my experience.
Quote: (06-05-2018 09:28 PM)Mess O. Wrote:
I still keep trying to get my mind around why she went along with the finale, so thoroughly and so passionately.
I used to suffer these questions, but I think I've figured this one out.
There's a difference between enjoying the feeling of making out in general (or even having sex) and a very directed pair-bonding impulse towards you in particular.
Always remember that push comes to shove women will just close their eyes and rub their pussy or stick an inanimate dildo in themselves to get off. There is no sentimentality for her fingers or her dildo. It's merely a means to an end and she's usually conjuring up some fantasy in her head to complement the stimulation. That is a HUGE component behind the dating impulse for both genders. Women try to make it seem as though it's all about romance, but it's very much a pursuit of generic "pleasure" which is why it's associated with alcohol and blowing off steam on the weekends. Think of it like mutual masturbation or exchanging back-massages.
When the feelings are weak, the guy she's screwing around with is special only insofar as he meets the minimum level of physical attraction and she feels safe being touched by him. I used to think even this was some huge deal, but it's really not. Women can be surprisingly trusting in a way that seems positively foolhardy.
So I've had to work hard to untrain myself from feeling as though a woman allowing me to make out with her (or beyond) indicates she really likes me in particular as a person. It means I'm better than a perfect stranger but that's about it.
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