[coffeedrinker]

Hey all, been a lurker on these forums but this is my first post.

Had some good banter with a girl on Tinder but I bailed out on inviting her over after only about 6 msgs so got her number instead (was getting late so figured I better end the convo while on a high).

Txted her the next day but she was very slow to reply and only responded once.

Today she texted me in the morning:

Her: "Wanna meet today?"

Me: " My flatmates have put me on house arrest until I finish my work, but come over and we can secretly watch Netflix"

Her: " Yeah okay, where u live xx"

Me: " #Address#, I'll be home after 7pm, Don't forget the treats x"
(She agreed to bring treats for my dog previously, which isn't acc at my college house but ah well, I never said it was)

Her: "Where about is that? X oh u going out? I finish college at half 4"

Me: "Hard to describe haha, off #road x# in #y
Going for a meal with my grp after we hand in a project. May be home earlier, will let you know "

Her: "I'll try and find it lol, I'll prob get a bus from the station, is it far from there?? And awwhh cute "

Me:" It's a 15 min walk from bus station but it's all uphill so depends if you feel like being active
Several buses take you within 5 min walk but check google maps as I don't remember which ones"

Her "I'll walk"

Few hours later

Me "Coolio, Ill be home by 6 now"

Her " Idk if it's a bit soon to meet aha"

Me: "Haha why so serious? Just some fun and get to know eachother x"


I mean, I can understand that not all girls are keen to go to a stranger's house before they've even met, but I usually miss out on many girls who are down to fuck / FWB / 1NS from tinder because I invite them to go for drinks rather then straight up come over.

This girl suggested we meet up herself after exchanging only 8 msgs in total, most which were flirty.

Maybe I became a bit boring after she suggested the meet up, but it's not exactly easy to make jokes about your address or how to get there lol.

I feel like she had all day to tell her friends and they probably argued against going to a stranger's house because otherwise I don't really see the sudden change in attitude.

Any advice on how to handle these txt convos better? I'm not gonna lose sleep as Tinder is a numbers game but I feel like a salesman who works up their client cold calling, get's them to enter their credit card details and then somehow scare them away from actually buying.

This has happened a few times so the problem is def in me somewhere but really, particularly in this case, I don't think I really did anything that 'wrong'?

Cheers for any advice.

[Baphomet]

Quote:

I feel like she had all day to tell her friends and they probably argued against going to a stranger's house because otherwise I don't really see the sudden change in attitude.

Probably not. She's a Tinder girl, and has probably been to quite a few "stranger's houses." Tinder girls like a short easy ride to whatever dick they're visiting that night. You gave her a labyrinth.

[coffeedrinker]

(05-17-2018 02:35 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  

Quote:

I feel like she had all day to tell her friends and they probably argued against going to a stranger's house because otherwise I don't really see the sudden change in attitude.

Probably not. She's a Tinder girl, and has probably been to quite a few "stranger's houses." Tinder girls like a short easy ride to whatever dick they're visiting that night. You gave her a labyrinth.

Can you clarify what you mean by labyrinth?

How can I make it any easier then telling her my address? It's not like I live in the ghetto, 15 mins walk from town haha but welcome to any ideas.

[eradicator]

She got cold feet. Concentrate on other girls and ping her again in a week. If she doesn’t respond then punt and look elsewhere

[coffeedrinker]

(05-17-2018 06:06 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

She got cold feet. Concentrate on other girls and ping her again in a week. If she doesn’t respond then punt and look elsewhere

That sounds reasonable. However, do you think there is anything significantly different I should have done to reduce the chances of this happening?

Should I have suggested drinks instead, or maybe to get her an uber to mine, meet her somewhere close to my house etc?

I know dwelliing too much isn't good for the soul, but she essentially made it easy for me by asking me out and I somehow managed to screw that up. If I can't close these opportunities then there is something much more basic that I need to improve on but I can't seem to figure out what it is.

[Supreme4ever]

You may be a great Legend IDK, but making a girl jump through hoops 2 satisfy you is a roadblock in itself. After you bang her you can treat her like shot. But to catch a bus and walk to get to you Wow u have some great expectations. I would Uber the lizard 2 cancel out the flake. Internet girls are too easy not to smash so you're looking at a 90% chance. Impress her one time and she will be the one pay for you afterwards.

[coffeedrinker]

(05-17-2018 07:18 PM)Supreme4ever Wrote:  

You may be a great Legend IDK, but making a girl jump through hoops 2 satisfy you is a roadblock in itself. After you bang her you can treat her like shot. But to catch a bus and walk to get to you Wow u have some great expectations. I would Uber the lizard 2 cancel out the flake. Internet girls are too easy not to smash so you're looking at a 90% chance. Impress her one time and she will be the one pay for you afterwards.

I see your point. I genuinely didn't even consider this being a big deal as both me and her are students in a small town - I walk everwhere.

I do realise that was the wrong way of thinking about it now. Given that she had already agreed to come to my house, there was no reason for me trying to play it cool and not make it easier for her to come.

It did strike me as odd why she made such a big deal about how to get to my house (must be an alien if you are under 25 and don't use a map app), so I guess she was hinting at getting a lift/taxi.

It's annoying because sometimes my common sense just doesn't work. I have ruined so many similar opportunites because of either being oblivious or saying really stupid things for no good reason.

[HankMoody]

This is the stuff I write about and some idiots get pissed at me.

You can't just swipe right on Tinder and tell a girl to catch three buses to your house to watch Netflix, unless you're insanely good looking. That's too much work for them. You have to put some investment into the initial bang. Once she's hooked, you can basically do whatever you want.

Keep in mind that some of the people who write these posts are full of shit and just want to tell you how they bang girls off the internet every single night by swiping and telling them to get over here while they play Playstation in dirty boxers.

Doesn't work like this.

You overgamed this one.

Next time be like "i'll send you an uber at 7. im starting so we'll grab some tacos at [Taco Joint]." (preferably a place near your house). Have a few shots, eat some food, and then be like "You ever see Star Wars (or whatever)? Let's go watch that." If she's down, she'll head over. Some girls take more than one date. Others don't. Depends on your level of attractiveness.

[tobehero]

She might have got a better offer. Happens all the time on tinder and if she is hot, plenty of options for her from thirsty guys.

[coffeedrinker]

(05-17-2018 08:50 PM)HankMoody Wrote:  

This is the stuff I write about and some idiots get pissed at me.

You can't just swipe right on Tinder and tell a girl to catch three buses to your house to watch Netflix, unless you're insanely good looking. That's too much work for them. You have to put some investment into the initial bang. Once she's hooked, you can basically do whatever you want.

Keep in mind that some of the people who write these posts are full of shit and just want to tell you how they bang girls off the internet every single night by swiping and telling them to get over here while they play Playstation in dirty boxers.

Doesn't work like this.

You overgamed this one.

Next time be like "i'll send you an uber at 7. im starting so we'll grab some tacos at [Taco Joint]." (preferably a place near your house). Have a few shots, eat some food, and then be like "You ever see Star Wars (or whatever)? Let's go watch that." If she's down, she'll head over. Some girls take more than one date. Others don't. Depends on your level of attractiveness.

So even if she sounds really interested and seems like she just want to fuck, I should still suggest do something else before inviting her over, even if its just a quick drink near by?

In the past I've had some girls lose interest when I invite them for drinks, obviously it could be that they were never interested in meeting / use tinder for ego etc, but some girls I do think would have responded better to being directly invited over.

In addition, I struggle with clues when I do go on drinks with girls so I though I could try being direct straight from texting.

For example, once 20 mins into date at a bar, I suggested we get our 2nd drink but she countered me with "What do you want from tinder", I was taken by surprise and said that I don't really think about it, just want to have a good time and see where it goes.
The problem was that she wanted me to initiate and go back home. I didn't realise till later when she told me this haha (fair play to her being honest) but it was too late afterwards, she had lost interest.

Another time, when I suggested we head back home, the girl agreed so quickly and in such a tone that it was like she was waiting for me to ask for a while.

I think my fear is that if I ask to go back too early and fail that I would lose a better opportunity to do it slightly later when we interact more.

(05-18-2018 01:34 AM)tobehero Wrote:  

She might have got a better offer. Happens all the time on tinder and if she is hot, plenty of options for her from thirsty guys.

Agreed, and in that case it's unlikely it mattered too much what I msged. I still want to learn from the situation as ocassionally I keep making the same mistakes.

[AceP]

(05-17-2018 06:06 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

She got cold feet. Concentrate on other girls and ping her again in a week. If she doesn’t respond then punt and look elsewhere

Best advice and what you can do here. I agree.

I don't know how hot you are bro, but yeah this happens all the time in tinder where girls just might find a better (and hotter) offer anytime of the day just with a couple of finger swipes. Another thing I could suggest is try to take her out instead of you going out to her.

[Beirut]

Girls don't want to use their brains and you may have made it too complicated and been too nonchalant throughout the conversation. Like others said you can be like that after you hooked them but I don't adopt that attitude with a girl unless I half wish that shed flake on me.

That said I don't know how it usually works around your parts

[coffeedrinker]

(05-18-2018 05:14 AM)AceP Wrote:  

(05-17-2018 06:06 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

She got cold feet. Concentrate on other girls and ping her again in a week. If she doesn’t respond then punt and look elsewhere

Best advice and what you can do here. I agree.

I don't know how hot you are bro, but yeah this happens all the time in tinder where girls just might find a better (and hotter) offer anytime of the day just with a couple of finger swipes. Another thing I could suggest is try to take her out instead of you going out to her.

I need to gain about 10kg of muscle and I'll be ok, until then, the lifestyle portrayed by my photos is it. I tend to have decent convos (IMO) until it gets to sorting out a date.

(05-18-2018 11:51 AM)Beirut Wrote:  

Girls don't want to use their brains and you may have made it too complicated and been too nonchalant throughout the conversation. Like others said you can be like that after you hooked them but I don't adopt that attitude with a girl unless I half wish that shed flake on me.

That said I don't know how it usually works around your parts

Think this case is solved tbh:

-Suggest drinks/something fun, or make it extremely easy for her to come over (uber/driver her).

-Continue banter/flirty convo even while sorting out logistics/date & don't be nonchalant at least until after hooking up.

And can try ping her up in a couple of days and if no reply, don't bother anymore.

Cheers all

[Kangaroo]

What Hank said, you should have just uber her to yours.

[AceP]

(05-18-2018 12:56 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 05:14 AM)AceP Wrote:  

(05-17-2018 06:06 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

She got cold feet. Concentrate on other girls and ping her again in a week. If she doesn’t respond then punt and look elsewhere

Best advice and what you can do here. I agree.

I don't know how hot you are bro, but yeah this happens all the time in tinder where girls just might find a better (and hotter) offer anytime of the day just with a couple of finger swipes. Another thing I could suggest is try to take her out instead of you going out to her.

I need to gain about 10kg of muscle and I'll be ok, until then, the lifestyle portrayed by my photos is it. I tend to have decent convos (IMO) until it gets to sorting out a date.

(05-18-2018 11:51 AM)Beirut Wrote:  

Girls don't want to use their brains and you may have made it too complicated and been too nonchalant throughout the conversation. Like others said you can be like that after you hooked them but I don't adopt that attitude with a girl unless I half wish that shed flake on me.

That said I don't know how it usually works around your parts

Think this case is solved tbh:

-Suggest drinks/something fun, or make it extremely easy for her to come over (uber/driver her).

-Continue banter/flirty convo even while sorting out logistics/date & don't be nonchalant at least until after hooking up.

And can try ping her up in a couple of days and if no reply, don't bother anymore.

Cheers all

Personally super thor-like muscles might not be the primary deciding factor more so than how high quality your pics is and how well you pose yourself (you need to really know yourself, how you look good, at what angles)

And tinder success/notches/matches is also very much depended on your location. Some places you'll have good SMV and some you just don't.

[jcardial]

(05-17-2018 01:24 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

Her "I'll walk"

Few hours later

Me "Coolio, Ill be home by 6 now"

Her " Idk if it's a bit soon to meet aha"

Me: "Haha why so serious? Just some fun and get to know eachother x"

Mistakes
1) You made your place sound hard to get to and find. Not enticing at all.
2) Meetup time was too nebulous. Just pick a damn time you're fairly confident you can make and message in the off case you're running late. You don't want to sound like you might flake with short notice.
3) You took a long time to respond on the day of the date (e.g. multiple hours. Just send the "ok cool" in a reasonable time to not make her anxious).
4) The word coolio should never be used in text or conversation unless you're referencing the 90s rapper.
5) Try to limit the fluff if you already chatted a bit.
6) When inviting a stranger to your place, never quote the joker or any other murderers real or fictional. The "why so serious?" line was probably the nail in the coffin. She expressed concern about the time being literally too early and you basically implied that she was concerned (or should be) about trusting you. "How does 8 sound?" was the correct response. Again, just pick a damn time. I'll be home by 6 just sounds too vague and hence she was humming and hawing. She doesn't know if you're going to be ready by 6 or jerking it in the shower still.

If you thought she was having cold feet about going to your place for trust reasons then you could have just made an excuse about wanting to go for a drink and changed the location to xyz bar. You really need to tighten up your time and place logistics and inspire confidence rather than total doubt and confusion.

[AceP]

(05-20-2018 10:11 AM)jcardial Wrote:  

(05-17-2018 01:24 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

Her "I'll walk"

Few hours later

Me "Coolio, Ill be home by 6 now"

Her " Idk if it's a bit soon to meet aha"

Me: "Haha why so serious? Just some fun and get to know eachother x"

Mistakes
1) You made your place sound hard to get to and find. Not enticing at all.
2) Meetup time was too nebulous. Just pick a damn time you're fairly confident you can make and message in the off case you're running late. You don't want to sound like you might flake with short notice.
3) You took a long time to respond on the day of the date (e.g. multiple hours. Just send the "ok cool" in a reasonable time to not make her anxious).
4) The word coolio should never be used in text or conversation unless you're referencing the 90s rapper.
5) Try to limit the fluff if you already chatted a bit.
6) When inviting a stranger to your place, never quote the joker or any other murderers real or fictional. The "why so serious?" line was probably the nail in the coffin. She expressed concern about the time being literally too early and you basically implied that she was concerned (or should be) about trusting you. "How does 8 sound?" was the correct response. Again, just pick a damn time. I'll be home by 6 just sounds too vague and hence she was humming and hawing. She doesn't know if you're going to be ready by 6 or jerking it in the shower still.

If you thought she was having cold feet about going to your place for trust reasons then you could have just made an excuse about wanting to go for a drink and changed the location to xyz bar. You really need to tighten up your time and place logistics and inspire confidence rather than total doubt and confusion.

Lots of good advice here.

I would like to add, when you're in the "charming and seducing" phase. Sure, go all fluff and flirty as you can until she made up in her mind "OK, I'll see this guy". But after that, I would recommend to make it as clear as possible: date, time, location. Be clear and firm, you'll done your charming, now it's her choice to go through with it or she's just messing around.

I once messed up my own above average HB hot date, because I said let's meet weekend night (I meant Saturday) and she thought Sunday. I thought she was flaking me, and I was flaking her. We end up not meeting and I regretted not being firm and clear.

[BlueResolute]

I'll never forget when this one young girl was up and ready to drive to me during an out of town trip. I was at a hotel and told her I was here on business. She said she was coming, but it had been over an hour. At that point, I either thought she got lost or she got flakey. Turned out, a couple hours later, she had went to another city to hit the bars, and messaged me when she was only coming back home, likely after not getting a notch. I removed her from my tinder after that.

Women are shallow.

[coffeedrinker]

(05-20-2018 10:11 AM)jcardial Wrote:  

Mistakes
1) You made your place sound hard to get to and find. Not enticing at all.
2) Meetup time was too nebulous. Just pick a damn time you're fairly confident you can make and message in the off case you're running late. You don't want to sound like you might flake with short notice.
3) You took a long time to respond on the day of the date (e.g. multiple hours. Just send the "ok cool" in a reasonable time to not make her anxious).
4) The word coolio should never be used in text or conversation unless you're referencing the 90s rapper.
5) Try to limit the fluff if you already chatted a bit.
6) When inviting a stranger to your place, never quote the joker or any other murderers real or fictional. The "why so serious?" line was probably the nail in the coffin. She expressed concern about the time being literally too early and you basically implied that she was concerned (or should be) about trusting you. "How does 8 sound?" was the correct response. Again, just pick a damn time. I'll be home by 6 just sounds too vague and hence she was humming and hawing. She doesn't know if you're going to be ready by 6 or jerking it in the shower still.

If you thought she was having cold feet about going to your place for trust reasons then you could have just made an excuse about wanting to go for a drink and changed the location to xyz bar. You really need to tighten up your time and place logistics and inspire confidence rather than total doubt and confusion.

Cheers for the breakdown and advice


Would you say to cut out the fluff no matter how short the txt convo was prior to her agreeing/suggesting to meet? The reason for the fluff was that given we only exchanged 8 msgs in total prior to her suggesting to meet, I though it would help put her at ease if I don't just talk about logistics.

(05-20-2018 02:17 PM)AceP Wrote:  

Lots of good advice here.

I would like to add, when you're in the "charming and seducing" phase. Sure, go all fluff and flirty as you can until she made up in her mind "OK, I'll see this guy". But after that, I would recommend to make it as clear as possible: date, time, location. Be clear and firm, you'll done your charming, now it's her choice to go through with it or she's just messing around.

I once messed up my own above average HB hot date, because I said let's meet weekend night (I meant Saturday) and she thought Sunday. I thought she was flaking me, and I was flaking her. We end up not meeting and I regretted not being firm and clear.

ah, that is a frustratingly small but painful mistake but makes the point. I definitely need to be more clear.

What do you tend to do if a plan fails? I see most people either move on or give a 2nd chance if the girl gives a 'realistic' excuse. But do you go straight for trying to set up a new plan or do you build up the convo a bit again?

[Tigre]

You said you got her number and texted.

Did you move the conversation to WhatsApp? Viber? SMS?

On WhatsApp or Viber, you can send a location right in the chat. She clicks the map and it opens. Then she clicks "directions" and it tells her how to get there.

With those apps, you can also send voice notes.

To co-sign what everyone else said. When you get to logistics, keep the words to a minimum and make it sound fun and easy.

Her "it's too soon to meet" was a generic flake excuse. She would have met, but you didn't sell the idea very well.

[coffeedrinker]

(05-21-2018 04:56 AM)Tigre Wrote:  

You said you got her number and texted.

Did you move the conversation to WhatsApp? Viber? SMS?

On WhatsApp or Viber, you can send a location right in the chat. She clicks the map and it opens. Then she clicks "directions" and it tells her how to get there.

With those apps, you can also send voice notes.

To co-sign what everyone else said. When you get to logistics, keep the words to a minimum and make it sound fun and easy.

Her "it's too soon to meet" was a generic flake excuse. She would have met, but you didn't sell the idea very well.

SMS. I don't really know why, hardly anyone uses sms these days but I almost always use it for txting girls from tinder until after first date. Maybe because I don't like seeing or being seen when a msg has been seen. Probably should use Whatsapp though

[AceP]

(05-20-2018 02:25 PM)BlueResolute Wrote:  

I'll never forget when this one young girl was up and ready to drive to me during an out of town trip. I was at a hotel and told her I was here on business. She said she was coming, but it had been over an hour. At that point, I either thought she got lost or she got flakey. Turned out, a couple hours later, she had went to another city to hit the bars, and messaged me when she was only coming back home, likely after not getting a notch. I removed her from my tinder after that.

Women are shallow.

Lol. You can still pull this actually.

My friend done it before. There were going to meet for a date, but she got pre-drinks and got drunk with her friends before she left for the date. My friend offered to pick her up with the car, and made it clear he's not gonna see her again if she declines. So she accepts and he drove to her place and picked her up, then banged her at his apartment.

[jcardial]

(05-21-2018 06:52 AM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 04:56 AM)Tigre Wrote:  

You said you got her number and texted.

Did you move the conversation to WhatsApp? Viber? SMS?

On WhatsApp or Viber, you can send a location right in the chat. She clicks the map and it opens. Then she clicks "directions" and it tells her how to get there.

With those apps, you can also send voice notes.

To co-sign what everyone else said. When you get to logistics, keep the words to a minimum and make it sound fun and easy.

Her "it's too soon to meet" was a generic flake excuse. She would have met, but you didn't sell the idea very well.

SMS. I don't really know why, hardly anyone uses sms these days but I almost always use it for txting girls from tinder until after first date. Maybe because I don't like seeing or being seen when a msg has been seen. Probably should use Whatsapp though

Whatsap:
Just use Whatsap and change the privacy setting (Account - Privacy - (uncheck "Read Receipts")) and they can't see if it was read. Even if you have the read receipts on you can still read the message via push notifications without her knowing (at least on iphone, not sure about android). It's kind of pointless because everyone knows that everyone is checking their phone often anyway. Whatsap also allows for voice messages, which are probably better for building comfort if you don't sound too nasal.

Fluff:
I just mean you could have used fewer words to say what you said. Just be as clear and concise as possible. You could have replaced paragraphs just by sending your address or by sharing your location on Whatsap. Even a lot of tiny or small mistakes add up over time. If you had just picked a specific time and easy to find place your text game would have been about 80% tighter.

Netflix and chill:
If you only exchanged a few messages and felt like you needed to build more comfort then don't go for the Netflix and chill hail mary because any girl is an order of magnitude more likely to flake. Just go for a more comfortable first meeting place with a clear date time. You seem to have some decent banter skills, so just use that to build comfort in a bar or literally anywhere else other than your allegedly hard to find apartment that is also allegedly full of overbearing flatmates.

[Preussen]

Your excuse to get her come over was “House arrest” but I would have at least said I will meet you at the bus stop. She may have said “but you’re on arrest” to which I would have said I’m allowed one hour of recess a day

[coffeedrinker]

(05-21-2018 12:18 PM)jcardial Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 06:52 AM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 04:56 AM)Tigre Wrote:  

You said you got her number and texted.

Did you move the conversation to WhatsApp? Viber? SMS?

On WhatsApp or Viber, you can send a location right in the chat. She clicks the map and it opens. Then she clicks "directions" and it tells her how to get there.

With those apps, you can also send voice notes.

To co-sign what everyone else said. When you get to logistics, keep the words to a minimum and make it sound fun and easy.

Her "it's too soon to meet" was a generic flake excuse. She would have met, but you didn't sell the idea very well.

SMS. I don't really know why, hardly anyone uses sms these days but I almost always use it for txting girls from tinder until after first date. Maybe because I don't like seeing or being seen when a msg has been seen. Probably should use Whatsapp though

Whatsap:
Just use Whatsap and change the privacy setting (Account - Privacy - (uncheck "Read Receipts")) and they can't see if it was read. Even if you have the read receipts on you can still read the message via push notifications without her knowing (at least on iphone, not sure about android). It's kind of pointless because everyone knows that everyone is checking their phone often anyway. Whatsap also allows for voice messages, which are probably better for building comfort if you don't sound too nasal.

Fluff:
I just mean you could have used fewer words to say what you said. Just be as clear and concise as possible. You could have replaced paragraphs just by sending your address or by sharing your location on Whatsap. Even a lot of tiny or small mistakes add up over time. If you had just picked a specific time and easy to find place your text game would have been about 80% tighter.

Netflix and chill:
If you only exchanged a few messages and felt like you needed to build more comfort then don't go for the Netflix and chill hail mary because any girl is an order of magnitude more likely to flake. Just go for a more comfortable first meeting place with a clear date time. You seem to have some decent banter skills, so just use that to build comfort in a bar or literally anywhere else other than your allegedly hard to find apartment that is also allegedly full of overbearing flatmates.

I'm still a big newb and need calibration for my online msging. Occasionally I go too crazy or too boring and sometimes I do it on purpose to see the effects.

Suggesting Netflix & Chill was one of those tests as I though given she suggested a meet up, it gives me more levarage to push for it. It's only after you 'lose' the girl you realise that probably this test was pointless. Think I'll keep to drinks/activity meet ups for Tinder, particuarly as I'm not sure how I would act if a girl came straight to my house anyway.

(05-21-2018 12:21 PM)Preussen Wrote:  

Your excuse to get her come over was “House arrest” but I would have at least said I will meet you at the bus stop. She may have said “but you’re on arrest” to which I would have said I’m allowed one hour of recess a day

Think I got arrogant there. I considered meeting her at bus stop but realised that would mean going from town to mine to shower etc then back to town. Not that I'm lazy, I just didn't really think she would flake given that she suggested the meetup (hasn't happened to me many times before). Lesson learned though