[questor70]

(10-10-2017 04:46 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

I know 20 guys that have great monogamous marriages, who also have kids and have maintained that arrangement into the next generation.

Pointing out people in their 80s in old-folks home doesn't invalidate the changes to gender relations brought about by nth wave feminism. It's a generational thing. I mean, do you really think today's crop of tat and pierced narcissistic millenials are going to marry off and stay together to the same extent as people who got together in the 1950s?

[zatara]

Increased female propensity for cheating is just one more reason that getting married if you're a financially successful man in Europe / the US is a terrible idea. Your odds of divorce are up to 50% in a lot of places, and if that happens you're getting financially raped for potentially the rest of your life. The small tax benefits it gives you just aren't worth it.

Even if you have an "ironclad" prenup if you move to a different jurisdiction subsequently theres no guarantee at all that it will be honoured. And even if you're lucky enough to get married in, and stay living in, a rare jurisdiction which accepts prenups you're still most likely going to get fucked on child support.*

*(to be clear I don't think any man should abandon his kids financially. But Western courts regularly demand child support at a level set to subsidize the ex-wife's lifestyle, far beyond what is necessary for the kids).

[Leonard D Neubache]

(10-11-2017 09:30 AM)questor70 Wrote:  

...
Pointing out people in their 80s in old-folks home doesn't invalidate the changes to gender relations brought about by nth wave feminism. It's a generational thing. I mean, do you really think today's crop of tat and pierced narcissistic millenials are going to marry off and stay together to the same extent as people who got together in the 1950s?

Is your argument that marriage is determined by some sort of lottery where neither party has the option of screening candidates?

Are you talking about generic, faceless societal outcomes or the capacity for an individual man to marry a faithful woman and start a successful family?

[Leonard D Neubache]

(10-11-2017 10:16 AM)zatara Wrote:  

...
Your odds of divorce are up to 50% in a lot of places
...

As a man your odds of getting laid on any given night are virtually zero, so don't waste your time trying, right?

Acceptance of generic statistics as a personal likelihood of success or failure is a form of game denialism.

[zatara]

(10-11-2017 10:33 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

As a man your odds of getting laid on any given night are virtually zero, so don't waste your time trying, right?

Acceptance of generic statistics as a personal likelihood of success or failure is a form of game denialism.

Who said anything about giving up on getting laid? Not wanting to commit yourself to the financial blackhole that is marriage in the West is miles away from giving up on women. Its still possible to have one night stands, girlfriends and long-term partners without getting married. Its not game denialism, its the use of statistical understanding to minimize your risk exposure. Marriage is just not a good bet financially these days.

And where on earth are your odds of getting laid "virtually zero" on any given night as a man? If anything is game denialism that shit right there is. If you're a man with any sort of game who wants to get laid on a given night you've got going out to a bar, you've got Tinder, you've got social circle game... Any combination of which gives you odds of getting laid of anywhere from 50-95%, depending on luck and your own skillset.

[dies irae]

So, marriage haters deny game? Really?

I'm not even a marriage hater but the very idea that I have to game my wife forever would be enough to make me a marriage hater.

[AntiMediocrity]

(10-11-2017 12:21 PM)dies irae Wrote:  

I'm not even a marriage hater but the very idea that I have to game my wife forever would be enough to make me a marriage hater.

Remember that some users here have different definitions for game.

A lifetime of jumping through hoops, dealing with shit tests, negging, dread game etc? I don't think anyone would want that for their whole lives nor advocate it.

But staying at the top of your inner game, ensuring you have the highest SMV that you can in your age and environment and earning attraction from other women as a result? That should be par for the course I think.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-11-2017 04:53 PM)AntiMediocrity Wrote:  

A lifetime of jumping through hoops, dealing with shit tests, negging, dread game etc? I don't think anyone would want that for their whole lives nor advocate it.

Are you implying that a man can get married and still somehow avoid all of that?

[AntiMediocrity]

(10-11-2017 04:57 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

Are you implying that you can get married and still somehow avoid all of that?

You are assuming every marriage is like that, which is erroneous.

Contrary to what you may believe there are girls out there that don't put their husbands through that - perhaps one or two of these but that's female nature for you. But what I'm posing is that game isn't always about those aspects.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what the argument is due your use of rhetoric in the response I'm addressing, I just wanted to chip in with the above - that when users talk about "gaming forever even in marriage" it could mean more than gaming her.

[Suits]

Of course the married guys think that their decision was the best. When you are married, you can apparently only make one of two choices.

(A) Live a life of regret, or

(B) Believe with confidence that your decision was the bestest ever and that everyone who makes different life choices lacks the amazing game that you have, even if it means engaging in daily self-delusion, including insisting that your rapidly decaying 4 of a wife is still somehow a 7.5, even after popping out a couple of kids.

Of course, there couldn't possibly be a third option where today's young men are simply not meeting women that inspire even an ounce of confidence or who fail to offer anything close to the type of value that men are forced to bring to the table to even be on the radar of women who aren't already rapidly approach the wall, clinging only to a semblance of youth by spending hundreds of dollars a month and an hour or more every day on a dizzying array of cosmetics and treatments.

[Paracelsus]

(10-11-2017 06:16 PM)Suits Wrote:  

Of course, there couldn't possibly be a third option where today's young men are simply not meeting women that inspire even an ounce of confidence or who fail to offer anything close to the type of value that men are forced to bring to the table to even be on the radar of women who aren't already rapidly approach the wall, clinging only to a semblance of youth by spending hundreds of dollars a month and an hour or more every day on a dizzying array of cosmetics and treatments.

The irony being that the sexless beta and the jaded alpha are actually in very similar positions: the former despairs of ever meeting anybody worth being with because he lacks the skills to go and meet anyone, while the latter despairs of meeting anybody worth being with because he's met so many of them.

[doc holliday]

I was married for 20 years before I got divorced last year so I think I can see both sides here. I do agree with Leonard and the others who say that you can't be a player and be married at the same time, it just doesn't work. No woman is going to be happy and content while you go and fuck randos. Keeping it on the down low and doing it requires a ton of planning, time, energy and serendipity to pull it of for any significant period of time. You will eventually slip and god help you once you get caught. Being divorced as I am now, I still have a lot of appreciation for the impassioned argument that Leonard makes in favor of marriage. It really does take being a strong man with an iron frame to hold a marriage together today, it is not for the faint of heart. It requires and always has required incredible sacrifice, hard work and delayed gratification, qualities that quite frankly most men and women both, do not possess today. I would always tell people that having a family today is like trying to swim up Niagara Falls with all of the negative cultural forces conspiring against you. It is something that until you do it, you have no idea how much it entails. I do believe however, that most men, once they reach their 30s and have "sown their oats" would benefit greatly from raising a family. It really does turn you into a man. It did for me and I have no regrets about being married. I do wish I had done some things differently to keep my marriage alive but even if I had done some of those things, I think my marriage might have ended up as it did.

All of that said, I really do understand the fear a lot of men have about getting married today, it's not something I take lightly at all. Having gone through a divorce, I can say that the family courts and divorce laws in general are fubar. It was not a pleasant experience. I had to fight for everything: time with my kids, a fair financial settlement, everyone in my community supporting her and so on. It is not an experience that I would want the younger guys here to go through. Having been out in the dating world now for a while, yeah its no joke that most of these women here are a hot mess. They are not wife material what so ever. I see it here in this thread where a lot of guys are lost as to how to proceed with women as they get older and the allure of fresh slut pussy (well I guess that pussy is a fresh as 5 day old sandwich meat) fades away. I wish with all of my experience that I had a good answer but I really don't. I can't be as forthright and convinced as Leonard and some of the others that finding a traditional woman and plunging forth into marriage is the way to go. Knowing how bad going through a divorce is, I can't tell young men to just do it. Yes I do understand that everything in life is a risk and that there are no guarantees but the problem today is that the odds are quite high that one will experience the failure of a marriage. There's too many external factors in today's world that influence women negatively and it is impossible to shield your woman completely from those influences. Women are easily swayed into getting caught up in a lot of what everyone else around them is doing. It's what happened to my ex wife. I failed at preventing my ex from being influenced by her environment so here I am. Its painful for me because I have two boys and while I have educated them and red pilled them, when they get to the age where they want to settle down, I don't know what to tell them. I don't want them to go through what I went through and I don't want them to be the typical cuck husband you find today. But I don't at the same time want them to be 40 year old players either, that's not healthy to me.

I think Leonard and Vaun are correct in that you do have to try and be the best you can be and have a positive attitude rather than thinking of yourself as a victim. If you want to be married and have a family, then you have to find the best chick you can and create the best environment you can to have a chance at succeeding. It's the most important decision you'll make in your life. However, I feel that the younger guys are fully justified in being afraid of the current situation. Ironically, my ex wife has now totally come around to my way of thinking, and blames herself for getting caught up in her environment. I would say that she swallowed the red pill, a big giant red pill but my saga with my ex wife is a story best told over a few drinks.