[Kieran]

It's just too dangerous to risk as far as I'm concerned. Men are coming at women from literally all angles, with the work place and social media being the most dangerous. Women love to flirt and think it's harmless fun until suddenly they start developing feelings, and it's very hard to be the exciting alpha when you live together, whereas the interloper can present themselves in any way they want.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 03:08 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Thats the general assertion, that men are not in control of their destinies. As if someone just within the last few years read "red pill" sites for the very first time, or was a recent divorce rape victim. Either way, the whole "man is victim" narrative has run its course.

Have you been through a divorce Vaun? If you have, then you wouldn't be thinking you are in complete control of your destiny. Family court, depending on your situation, will be in control at that point and for some time if you have kids.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-09-2017 03:08 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Thats the general assertion, that men are not in control of their destinies. As if someone just within the last few years read "red pill" sites for the very first time, or was a recent divorce rape victim. Either way, the whole "man is victim" narrative has run its course.

Could you be kind and point to me where I stated and/or implied that men are victims who are not in control of their destinies at all?

[raveking]

Isn't there a couple of threads here or articles on ROK about this whole MGTOW mindset that Woolf is promoting. MGTOW has as much pitfalls as divorce does, constant game is needed in a marriage but if you think about it game is applied to everything in life. It's all about getting what YOU want from other people while compromising and appealing to their needs. The reality is in even with game you're not always going to be able get what you want. But life is about compromises, humans are mostly motivated to do things that can benefit themselves. Being able to be independent and not rely on other people for your happiness is a good thing, but it also comes at the cost of having trust issues and being alone. As humans most of us whether extrovert or introvert seek companionship in the form of friends, family, or a significant other.

It is much more challenging to find a quality woman today, that's something we can all agree on. However on a self-improvement forum for men like this, we should seek to embrace this challenge instead of cowering away from it. I believe that being in a community of people that shares this similar mindset where we can all come to one another for advice allows us to adapt to these ever-changing times and grow in wisdom. I believe at the end of the day, we can make that choice to take the risks of getting hurt in getting what we want in life. Things don't always work out, but its when you take the risk knowing the possibility of failure and pain, makes the reward all that much more worth it when it actually works out.

Read this article on ROK
http://www.returnofkings.com/131395/pua-...l-you-like

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 03:27 PM)raveking Wrote:  

Isn't there a couple of threads here or articles on ROK about this whole MGTOW mindset that Woolf is promoting. MGTOW has as much pitfalls as divorce does, constant game is needed in a marriage but if you think about it game is applied to everything in life. It's all about getting what YOU want from other people while compromising and appealing to their needs. The reality is in even with game you're not always going to be able get what you want. But life is about compromises, humans are mostly motivated to do things that can benefit themselves. Being able to be independent and not rely on other people for your happiness is a good thing, but it also comes at the cost of having trust issues and being alone. As humans most of us whether extrovert or introvert seek companionship in the form of friends, family, or a significant other.

It is much more challenging to find a quality woman today, that's something we can all agree on. However on a self-improvement forum for men like this, we should seek to embrace this challenge instead of cowering away from it. I believe that being in a community of people that shares this similar mindset where we can all come to one another for advice allows us to adapt to these ever-changing times and grow in wisdom. I believe at the end of the day, we can make that choice to take the risks of getting hurt in getting what we want in life. Things don't always work out, but its when you take the risk knowing the possibility of failure and pain, makes the reward all that much more worth it when it actually works out.

Read this article on ROK
http://www.returnofkings.com/131395/pua-...l-you-like

Not getting married isn't the same as MTGOW.

[Vaun]

(10-09-2017 03:26 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 03:08 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Thats the general assertion, that men are not in control of their destinies. As if someone just within the last few years read "red pill" sites for the very first time, or was a recent divorce rape victim. Either way, the whole "man is victim" narrative has run its course.

Could you be kind and point to me where I stated and/or implied that men are victims who are not in control of their destinies at all?

Your whole statement reeks of "poor me, there is nothing I can do." Boo fucking whoo. You sound like your defeated as a man.

Drive your families into oblivion. What do I care, more for me and mine.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-09-2017 03:29 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Your whole statement reeks of "poor me, there is nothing I can do." Boo fucking whoo. You sound like your defeated as a man.

Drive your families into oblivion. What do I care, more for me and mine.

Well, you seem to care a lot. Otherwise you wouldn't get so heated. Maybe it's about the messenger, not the message. Let's try:

Blackdragon Wrote:

A new buzz phrase has appeared lately and many of you have commented or emailed me about it; “Alpha Provider.” Many of you have asked what my opinion of this is, which is surprising, since I’ve been discussing and supporting the concept of a pair bonded Alpha Male who takes care of a woman for about, oh, seven years now.

But there’s a catch. We’ll get to that in a minute.

Just to show what other guys have been saying this, Chase has articles about it here and here. Return of Kings has an article about it here and Roosh has one here. I’m sure there are many more. As I’ve explained before, since guys in the PUA / manosphere realms are finally aging into their 30s and beyond, there is an increased interest in the topic of long-term pair bonding. (For the record, I know Chase and think he’s a really great guy. I have never directly communicated with Roosh, nor with most of the writers at RoK, though I do like some of them, particularly Aaron Clarey).

I have read all of these articles, and nitpick points aside I agree with their overall position. That is that eventually, when you get older, you’re going to want to settle down with a Special Lady™ in some form or fashion, and it’s very important to remain Alpha when you do so. Well, duh. I’ve been saying this for almost a decade, even when it wasn’t popular with a community that was mostly interested in getting laid and not much else. (Back in circa 2009-2011, I was repeatedly attacked in the PUA community for “focusing too much on relationships” instead of focusing on pickup and game.) I have also stated numerous times that a live-in OLTR, or variation thereof, is my eventual goal.

This wasn’t because I was smarter or more forward thinking than everyone else; it was because I entered into this world as a 35 year-old man who already had two kids. Therefore, my view of these things has always been a longer-term one as compared to some horny 24 year-old dude with no kids who’s just focused on banging chicks. As an older guy, even when I was in my hardcore banging chicks phase (an important phase to go through), I clearly understood that it was temporary and that I would be looking to pair bond again once it was over, and thus had to plan accordingly.

The Problem

So clearly I agree with the overall concept. Where’s the problem then?

The problem is not what these articles say. What they say is fine. The problem is with what they imply or don’t say.

Live with a woman, have kids with a woman, and/or take care of a woman (if you can easily afford it)? Fine. But in all the articles on this topic I’ve seen, the strong implication is that the Alpha Provider:

1. Becomes legally married to his wife.

2. Is monogamous.

Uh-oh.

Now we have a problem.

As I’ve been saying for years and years, and backing up with numerous facts and statistics…

Pair bonding with a woman is fine. Loving a woman is fine. Living with a woman, as long as you take precautions, is fine. Having children with a woman and raising a family, as long as you take precautions, is fine. These are all wonderful things. I’ve done them myself and will likely do them again. Alpha Provider… fine.

However, as soon as you add absolute sexual monogamy to the mix, or corrupt, anti-man government into the mix via legal marriage, you’ve gone from Alpha Provider to Delusional Idiot. You have now set several nuclear-strength time bombs all over your life that will detonate at any time in the next 3-15 years. Then have fun with massive drama at best, huge legal problems and financial devastation at worst.

If you like drama or don’t mind drama, then by all means, ignore my advice, stop reading my stuff, get legally married, promise forever monogamy, expect it from her, and be Mr. Temporary Alpha Husband. You’ll be in NRE married / kids bliss for a few years (likely about three) and then it’s all going to blow up in your face when she catches you cheating and/or when she divorces your ass, either of which extremely likely because of the fact you’re an Alpha. As I’ve said before, submissive, pussy beta males actually have less-bad odds of making a long-term monogamous relationship/marriage work than you as an Alpha ever will.

If you don’t like drama and enjoy being happy, then if/when you become an Alpha Provider, follow the system I’ve described at this blog and in my books. Find woman qualified, sign an enforceable co-habitation agreement, move in with her, sign and file a parenting plan before she gets pregnant, don’t get legally married, keep your finances separate (though you can still take care of her if you wish) and keep things at least somewhat sexually open so you can discreetly get a little on the side. Then live your family man life and have your kids. Millions of men all over the Western world are quietly doing this right now. It works.

If you think that won’t work, please read this and this, and read this book and this one, along with various other articles I’ve written on this topic. If you read all the data I provide as well as all the proven principles and techniques men in these types of provider scenarios use, and you still think it doesn’t work, then you’re just being irrationally stubborn.

The Default Manosphere Advice

Let’s compare my advice to the typical advice given in this area. The default, Alpha Male 1.0, marriage 1.0, manosphere, PUA advice that is always given, or at least strongly implied, regarding Alpha Provider and settling down always boils down to this:

1. Heavily screen for a super submissive woman that hasn’t had sex with very many men yet.

2. Legally marry her, and get monogamous and have kids.

3. Be super Alpha and badass and always show her who’s boss.

4. Cross your fingers and hope it all works out.

Listen pal. If that method worked, you wouldn’t be seeing men all over the PUA and manosphere getting divorced left and right. If that was the secret sauce to making forever marriage work, divorce rates would be going down, when in fact, among people who still actually get married, divorce rates are skyrocketing in all age groups, all over the Western world.

Clearly this method doesn’t fucking work. If you follow this method, I’m going to bet real money that you’ll end up in divorce court in a few years fighting over your right to see your own kids. And I’ll be right.

A lot of you need to wake the fuck up. This is not 1952 any more. This right wing fantasy doesn’t exist (unless you want to move to the third world and stay there forever). I’m simply astounded that in the 2010s men are still falling for this “traditional marriage will work as long as you’re Alpha” shit. Are there unusual exceptions to the rule? Of course. As always, the exceptions prove the rule and you have no idea if you’re one of these exceptions on your wedding day.

There’s mountains of evidence of it not working staring you right in the face and you still choose to ignore it. Sad.

Does that mean my option is perfect? Of course not. There are no more perfect options for raising kids. Mine is simply the least bad one. Statistically speaking, you will probably still get divorced under my option as well. The difference is your sex life, your finances, and your custody of your kids will still be in your control within reason. That’s Alpha. Promising her that you’ll never fuck other women and letting her put a gun to your head in the form of legal marriage is not.

Alpha Provider is great, but you’ve got to do it under the model conducive to the real world and not some right wing guy-Disney fantasy.

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/05/0...-provider/

(10-09-2017 03:29 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Not getting married isn't the same as MTGOW.

I thought that's literally the meaning of MGTOW. Quick googling tells me that it's "a lifestyle which avoids legal and romantic entanglements with women, including, at the very least, marriage, cohabitation, and procreation". Whatever, maybe I fit the definition of a guy going his own way, but I don't identify as a MGTOW.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 03:41 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 03:29 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Not getting married isn't the same as MTGOW.

I thought that's literally the meaning of MGTOW. Quick googling tells me that it's "a lifestyle which avoids legal and romantic entanglements with women, including, at the very least, marriage, cohabitation, and procreation". Whatever, maybe I fit the definition of a guy going his own way, but I don't identify as a MGTOW.

Maybe it is me that doesn't understand the MGTOW definition. I always looked at it as men who gave up on women. The few videos I have seen on men talking about MGTOW has led me to believe they have given up totally which goes far beyond not wanting to marry because of messed up family laws.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-09-2017 03:45 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Maybe it is me that doesn't understand the MGTOW definition. I always looked at it as men who gave up on women. The few videos I have seen on men talking about MGTOW has led me to believe they have given up totally which goes far beyond not wanting to marry because of messed up family laws.

Yeah, if you check their secret club on Reddit, it's all about bashing women and long, bitter rants about staying the fuck away from women completely. But then again, Leo DiCaprio is their hero. If DiCaprio is MGTOW, what's the difference between a player/bachelor and MGTOW? I don't understand it either. It's confusing. And it's even more confusing when people throw the term around even though nobody agrees on what it really means.

[Vaun]

(10-09-2017 03:41 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 03:29 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

Your whole statement reeks of "poor me, there is nothing I can do." Boo fucking whoo. You sound like your defeated as a man.

Drive your families into oblivion. What do I care, more for me and mine.

Well, you seem to care a lot. Otherwise you wouldn't get so heated. Maybe it's about the messenger, not the message. Let's try:

I have read a lot of Caleb's stuff, including a few of his books. Generally pretty good. But only one perspective. Serial monogamy and open relationships are not for everybody. The positive I see with it, is the upfront honesty with women, its a core piece in his work. But what about men that want more? You have to consider that his exwife was a divorced single mom when he married her. How would that affect your view of women or relationships in the future? Or better yet, why would you take life advice from a guy that had made clearly dubious life choices in his past?

The thing I am sick of, is that this "red pill awareness" has gone on for decades. Its time for leaders to develop, to lead and ultimately change things in their own realities. I never said in my post that that is easy, or polly anna.

[Leonard D Neubache]

The divorce rate in the US is 50 percent.

That means that even a vast swathe of blue pill betas still go the distance.

Guys carping and whining about the inevitability of a woman cheating on them need to step out of the hypergamous dating scene and spend some time in the real world. Broad based bitching about female infidelity regardless of male game is no different from beta MGTOW game denial.

[Samseau]

BlackDragon's advice sucks. Letting your women bang other dudes is a recipe for disaster. Moreover, children are best raised with both parents; good luck getting any access to your child if you decide to do the open relationship nonsense.

BlackDragon needs to answer more legal questions about his arrangements, it all looks like bullshit to me.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-09-2017 05:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

BlackDragon's advice sucks. Letting your women bang other dudes is a recipe for disaster. Moreover, children are best raised with both parents; good luck getting any access to your child if you decide to do the open relationship nonsense.

BlackDragon needs to answer more legal questions about his arrangements, it all looks like bullshit to me.

So, what options are there for a guy in the West, then? Staying single and childless forever or moving to some small village in Ukraine and starting a family with a local girl there?



Having kids out of the wedlock and letting the women take care of them by themselves? Donating to a sperm bank? I'm drawing a blank here.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 04:24 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

The divorce rate in the US is 50 percent.

That means that even a vast swathe of blue pill betas still go the distance.

Guys carping and whining about the inevitability of a woman cheating on them need to step out of the hypergamous dating scene and spend some time in the real world. Broad based bitching about female infidelity regardless of male game is no different from beta MGTOW game denial.

That isn't what guys are bitching about. I don't think most men care about cheating women if they can simply walk away without financial recourse.

There are plenty of women and men who cheat but stay married.

From recollection, you live in a isolated portion of Australia with a very low population. How is that real life compared to the majority of people who live in large cities because of jobs?

[Samseau]

If you're in the USA, find a state that honors pre-nups well and get married and live there. If you do not think you can stay monogamous to your wife forever, tell her about your concerns before you get married. She may be cool with letting you have some extra on the side every now and then. The fact is, having an open relationship is just as possible unmarried as it is married nowadays because adultery isn't grounds for divorce in America. All you need to have a divorce in America is for one party to ask for it. Adultery is almost never considered by any judge. So for all practical purposes in the eyes of the law, all marriages are open-relationships by definition.

Legally speaking, the point of marriage is reduced taxes and getting custody rights of your children in the event of a divorce (which is rather likely). The reason I suggest getting married at all is not because I think we can avoid divorce, it's so you have more rights in the court system. Speak with a divorce lawyer near you and read about the case law studies at realworlddivorce.com. Marriages with pre-nups are the best option as far as I can tell.

[Lunostrelki]

(10-09-2017 04:24 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

The divorce rate in the US is 50 percent.

That means that even a vast swathe of blue pill betas still go the distance.

Guys carping and whining about the inevitability of a woman cheating on them need to step out of the hypergamous dating scene and spend some time in the real world. Broad based bitching about female infidelity regardless of male game is no different from beta MGTOW game denial.

These guys don't get statistics. If you're college-educated and come from a good or even functional background, the 50% divorce rate goes down significantly since we've thrown out the low-status populations. If you screen for a decent woman instead of marrying a random girl you slept with and developed feelings for, the chances of not ending up divorced should drop even further.

[rainy]

(10-05-2017 03:11 PM)Matsufubu Wrote:  

You just don't do it.

If you don't want to stay faithful, don't get married. Marriage is a sacrifice and a gain at the same time. Life is not about getting laid. I mean, getting laid matters, it's great, but it doesn't feed the soul and it's got little to do with raising children to be the next generation.

Perhaps. I think this ignores cultural differences though. In parts of Asia as an example, if successful you're expected to have a mistress. My wife comes from a part of the world where it's basically "if you do, just don't let me find out".

There's also different reasons why some men sleep around and generally fuck up in their execution. Many married the wrong woman who went on to run their lives and close up their legs as soon as they walked down the aisle. They then resort to sleeping around with local women, sometimes even friends, take far too much risk and ultimately it trickles back to the wife who cleans their clocks in divorce.

For me, that's entirely different than the guy who's happily married, has done a good job raising the kids and on an occasion or two picks up some broad at the hotel bar on a business trip halfway around the world, or as I stated, in a few Asian countries where it's almost accepted and where, on top of it, in these same Asian countries the family bond still remains strong.

It's not a blanket right or wrong discussion for me. I've spent far too much time in Eastern Europe where many men have side girls yet run a firm household, in polar opposition to the mess which is many American households. I'd go as far to say at times, the American culture of just banging chick after chick is a big part of why so many children are born out of wedlock and grow up in single family homes. Concentrate on marrying the right woman, running your household, raising and educating your children correctly and the occasional side pussy just isn't that big of a deal to me. And that's not to say there's anything wrong with chasing and gaming women, go for it, but there are problems when American society is full of fucking retards doing it, accidental pregnancies and children then raised in single households.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 06:50 PM)rainy Wrote:  

Perhaps. I think this ignores cultural differences though. In parts of Asia as an example, if successful you're expected to have a mistress. My wife comes from a part of the world where it's basically "if you do, just don't let me find out".

There's also different reasons why some men sleep around and generally fuck up in their execution. Many married the wrong woman who went on to run their lives and close up their legs as soon as they walked down the aisle. They then resort to sleeping around with local women, sometimes even friends, take far too much risk and ultimately it trickles back to the wife who cleans their clocks in divorce.

For me, that's entirely different than the guy who's happily married, has done a good job raising the kids and on an occasion or two picks up some broad at the hotel bar on a business trip halfway around the world, or as I stated, in a few Asian countries where it's almost accepted and where, on top of it, in these same Asian countries the family bond still remains strong.

It's not a blanket right or wrong discussion for me. I've spent far too much time in Eastern Europe where many men have side girls yet run a firm household, in polar opposition to the mess which is many American households. I'd go as far to say at times, the American culture of just banging chick after chick is a big part of why so many children are born out of wedlock and grow up in single family homes. Concentrate on marrying the right woman, running your household, raising and educating your children correctly and the occasional side pussy just isn't that big of a deal to me.

There is no recourse for sleeping around in the west any longer. A woman having kids with 3 or more different men isn't a big deal. Someone cheating on a marriage isn't a big deal. More than likely if a woman cheated she would still get half of all assets and possibly spousal support regardless if there was cheating.

From my time in EE, there was shaming involved. Most men would steer clear of women with kids from other men. Especially if that woman had multiple kids with different men. A woman divorced multiple times was destined to live alone.

Thirsty, desperate men in the west have all but killed that type of shaming.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(10-09-2017 06:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

If you're in the USA, find a state that honors pre-nups well and get married and live there. If you do not think you can stay monogamous to your wife forever, tell her about your concerns before you get married. She may be cool with letting you have some extra on the side every now and then. The fact is, having an open relationship is just as possible unmarried as it is married nowadays because adultery isn't grounds for divorce in America. All you need to have a divorce in America is for one party to ask for it. Adultery is almost never considered by any judge. So for all practical purposes in the eyes of the law, all marriages are open-relationships by definition.

Legally speaking, the point of marriage is reduced taxes and getting custody rights of your children in the event of a divorce (which is rather likely). The reason I suggest getting married at all is not because I think we can avoid divorce, it's so you have more rights in the court system. Speak with a divorce lawyer near you and read about the case law studies at realworlddivorce.com. Marriages with pre-nups are the best option as far as I can tell.

I'm having trouble keeping up with whether this forum has flipped the switch from hypergamous debauchery to traditionalist monogamy or back again or back again again.

WWT wants to know how a guy living in a debauched hive, possibly in the Clinton Archipelago can expect to find and keep an honest woman?

Sorry to answer a question with a question but if you guys want a decent wife and to extend your family line then what the fuck are you actually willing to sacrifice for it?

Are you guys seriously telling me that you expect a woman to keep her legs closed while in a liberal hive-city while you fuck other chicks? Traditionalism for she, but not for me? And you're going to kiss your kids on the cheek with the same lips you were jamming in some random skank's cunt the night before?

And where are you looking for this doormat? Tinder? Happy hour? God forbid you should step foot in a church, because it might be difficult to find a keeper that gargles your balls half way through the first date.

Get your shit straight, bros.

[CJ_W]

(10-06-2017 10:45 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:

Since 1990, notes the psychoanalyst and writer, the rate of married women who report they've been unfaithful has increased by 40 percent, while the rate among men has remained the same.

How do we know women just aren't more shameless nowadays, and are cheating at the same rates as they've always been - just more honest about it?

Because any red pilled man knows that women cheat a fuck ton, including doing the majority of ending relationships. In fact from everything I've seen, and from the stats of who actually end relationships, I'd say women cheat far more than men but never admit it. I think this has always been the case but women always lied about it until it's finally becoming socially acceptable to be a giant whore.

That could be true as well, I remember my grandmother mentioning to her sister over the phone that she "fornicated" outside of marriage. as well. Of course So did my grandfather. . .they were married for 52 years, before WWII (grandmother didn't think I could hear her on the phone or wasn't listening[I usually wasn't but I happened to catch that sentence lol. Made me laugh inside.]) So yeah, if that can happen back then, it sure didn't stop there.

(10-06-2017 08:49 AM)questor70 Wrote:  

(10-05-2017 11:23 PM)CJ_W Wrote:  

Nice article but I'd rather discuss the REAL reason why women cheat on their husbands:
They grow weak.

That comes across as victim-blaming.

I've read articles on how game can help, but I've yet to see evidence of red-pill men who are in long faithful marriages due to their mastery of game. I don't think they exist. Those who are married talk about how they spin side plates and are just assuming their wives aren't doing the same.

This is woman-speak, and you need to stop it.

I'm serious.

You are a MAN. Your life is YOUR UNIVERSE. everything that happens in your life is your responsibility, ESPECIALLY when it comes to women. Yes I also mean even "sudden trouble" that happens in your life. Men are hunters, we also have better eyes than women(evolution), better faculties at prediction as well. Basically we are built to be able to see what's coming on the horizon, analyze it and act accordingly. Women aren't built for this, which is why they can't see the truth about themselves even if you lay it out in front of them (which is why explaining game to a women(basically how women work) through words is useless and you should never do it.)

As a MAN you build societies, you build your social circles, you build your career, and you build your world. Women are LOOKING for men who build their own worlds, run their own ships for them to join. This means taking responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens in your universe. Period. There is no victim as a man, because if you were doing what you SHOULD have been doing, you wouldn't have been a victim. End of story.

If you use "victim blaming" as an excuse, for your mistakes (letting the world get one over you) then you have a lot of work to do. For a man Life isn't easy, it isn't fair. Life is something for a man to Take and conquer, lest the man himself be conquered. This is the attitude you need to have. If you can't take control of your own universe, then no one else can do it for you. This is something you'll have to learn through life, as many here have. Go out and conquer, or shrink back, claim "Victim blaming" and be a slave.

It's up to you.
Goodluck.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 07:34 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 06:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

If you're in the USA, find a state that honors pre-nups well and get married and live there. If you do not think you can stay monogamous to your wife forever, tell her about your concerns before you get married. She may be cool with letting you have some extra on the side every now and then. The fact is, having an open relationship is just as possible unmarried as it is married nowadays because adultery isn't grounds for divorce in America. All you need to have a divorce in America is for one party to ask for it. Adultery is almost never considered by any judge. So for all practical purposes in the eyes of the law, all marriages are open-relationships by definition.

Legally speaking, the point of marriage is reduced taxes and getting custody rights of your children in the event of a divorce (which is rather likely). The reason I suggest getting married at all is not because I think we can avoid divorce, it's so you have more rights in the court system. Speak with a divorce lawyer near you and read about the case law studies at realworlddivorce.com. Marriages with pre-nups are the best option as far as I can tell.

I'm having trouble keeping up with whether this forum has flipped the switch from hypergamous debauchery to traditionalist monogamy or back again or back again again.

WWT wants to know how a guy living in a debauched hive, possibly in the Clinton Archipelago can expect to find and keep an honest woman?

Sorry to answer a question with a question but if you guys want a decent wife and to extend your family line then what the fuck are you actually willing to sacrifice for it?

Are you guys seriously telling me that you expect a woman to keep her legs closed while in a liberal hive-city while you fuck other chicks? Traditionalism for she, but not for me? And you're going to kiss your kids on the cheek with the same lips you were jamming in some random skank's cunt the night before?

And where are you looking for this doormat? Tinder? Happy hour? God forbid you should step foot in a church, because it might be difficult to find a keeper that gargles your balls half way through the first date.

Get your shit straight, bros.

Leonard, why don't you take a break and come back when you are interested in having a conversation. As of right now, you continue strawman arguments.

In other news, all guys have to do is move out to the bush where the only competition are kangaroos and claim everyone else needs to man up. It's hard to lose anything in a divorce when you're piss poor.

[doc holliday]

(10-09-2017 07:34 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 06:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

If you're in the USA, find a state that honors pre-nups well and get married and live there. If you do not think you can stay monogamous to your wife forever, tell her about your concerns before you get married. She may be cool with letting you have some extra on the side every now and then. The fact is, having an open relationship is just as possible unmarried as it is married nowadays because adultery isn't grounds for divorce in America. All you need to have a divorce in America is for one party to ask for it. Adultery is almost never considered by any judge. So for all practical purposes in the eyes of the law, all marriages are open-relationships by definition.

Legally speaking, the point of marriage is reduced taxes and getting custody rights of your children in the event of a divorce (which is rather likely). The reason I suggest getting married at all is not because I think we can avoid divorce, it's so you have more rights in the court system. Speak with a divorce lawyer near you and read about the case law studies at realworlddivorce.com. Marriages with pre-nups are the best option as far as I can tell.

I'm having trouble keeping up with whether this forum has flipped the switch from hypergamous debauchery to traditionalist monogamy or back again or back again again.

WWT wants to know how a guy living in a debauched hive, possibly in the Clinton Archipelago can expect to find and keep an honest woman?

Sorry to answer a question with a question but if you guys want a decent wife and to extend your family line then what the fuck are you actually willing to sacrifice for it?

Are you guys seriously telling me that you expect a woman to keep her legs closed while in a liberal hive-city while you fuck other chicks? Traditionalism for she, but not for me? And you're going to kiss your kids on the cheek with the same lips you were jamming in some random skank's cunt the night before?

And where are you looking for this doormat? Tinder? Happy hour? God forbid you should step foot in a church, because it might be difficult to find a keeper that gargles your balls half way through the first date.

Get your shit straight, bros.

I'm killing myself laughing over that line.

[ElFlaco]

(10-09-2017 07:34 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

I'm having trouble keeping up with whether this forum has flipped the switch from hypergamous debauchery to traditionalist monogamy or back again or back again again.

Well put -- even though I can't parse this. Or maybe I can. But that was the point.

[nomadbrah]

If your wife is pregnant or with small children most of the time, how is she going to find time to cheat?

Temptation is a human condition of men and women. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

If you have just 3 kids, with one year between each, that's at least 8 years with small kids and very little time for extramarital liaisons for your wife. Not a lot of men are attracted to pregnant women or women with a toddler tag along.

Edit: Seems science agrees:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/res...vorce-risk

[CJ_W]

(10-09-2017 07:34 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

studies at realworlddivorce.com. Marriages with pre-nups are the best option as far as I can tell.

I'm having trouble keeping up with whether this forum has flipped the switch from hypergamous debauchery to traditionalist monogamy or back again or back again again.


[/quote]

I kind of agree, you can't really go out and be banging other chicks and have a good family at the same time, and not expect her to do the same. . .that is of course, unless you are pretty much God's gift to women, and you are SO ABOVE her AND the competition of men, that she''d be HAPPY to be a part of your harem, lest you leave her and alpha widow her so bad that she'd never be happy again. (You know, the whole thing where women would rather be part of a harem of THE man, than with a beta etc etc. . .reasons why society implemented marriage in the first place etc etc.)

OF course, that takes work(an unimaginable amount). Not all men are cut out for that anyway. I think, for guys who want a true traditional lifestyle, environment matters a LOT. So, living in a liberal city like New York, SF or L.A. is probably not going to work for this. Hell, you may have to find life outside of the U.S.

Being in a traditional relationship-marriage with a 20 year old, giving her lots of kids, is what some men can see themselves doing, but. . .it takes work to keep her honest, work that only the man can do. Anything more than that (get other women on the side while keeping her honest) requires God-like work and status. Something most men can't, or wont do. Hell, even Gengis Khan had a concubine that "cheated" on him with one of his soldiers. He didn't kill them, he faulted HIMSELF. Dude already knew this.