[rainy]

(10-09-2017 07:34 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 06:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

If you're in the USA, find a state that honors pre-nups well and get married and live there. If you do not think you can stay monogamous to your wife forever, tell her about your concerns before you get married. She may be cool with letting you have some extra on the side every now and then. The fact is, having an open relationship is just as possible unmarried as it is married nowadays because adultery isn't grounds for divorce in America. All you need to have a divorce in America is for one party to ask for it. Adultery is almost never considered by any judge. So for all practical purposes in the eyes of the law, all marriages are open-relationships by definition.

Legally speaking, the point of marriage is reduced taxes and getting custody rights of your children in the event of a divorce (which is rather likely). The reason I suggest getting married at all is not because I think we can avoid divorce, it's so you have more rights in the court system. Speak with a divorce lawyer near you and read about the case law studies at realworlddivorce.com. Marriages with pre-nups are the best option as far as I can tell.

Are you guys seriously telling me that you expect a woman to keep her legs closed while in a liberal hive-city while you fuck other chicks?

For the most part, yes, unless you married the wrong woman. Hence why I married a woman from EE, not so I can cheat but rather due to her general attitude and outlook on life. Her attitude is essentially to concentrate on the home, the children which will come and, boys will be boys, just keep it out of the household and make sure you're providing for the family.

If you marry some liberal slut who's looking for other men, well you're with the wrong girl.

Of course, you're presenting extremes. That doesn't mean myself or others would just go out on the weekend to chase pussy while the wife is at home changing diapers, that's fucked up. But if I'm off in some other country on business and some hot piece of ass wants it for a single night, I might entertain the idea, and it has nothing to do with sweeping judgements on religion or values or my home life or ability to provide. I'm not looking to cheat, have no reason to seek it out, I'm happily married to a beautiful Eastern Euro, it's more that I can picture a situation at some point where I'd entertain the idea.

Men are biologically and physiologically programmed to seek out sex. Women are not. They're programmed to raise children and uphold the household. You seem to be lumping men who have their shit together and have created a healthy home, who might cheat a handful of times over their lives to the increasing number of neutered pussy boys who are puppets on a string to their wives.

Maybe the issue or disagreement here is comparisons to Western men. I care not about that. I'm a citizen of the world who has lived overseas and will again in the future. I really do not care what these feminized schmucks in liberal SF face with their wives. Not my problem. I'm not them. When you specifically date and then marry outside that circle, the rules of that circle do not apply.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(10-09-2017 07:41 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

...

Leonard, why don't you take a break and come back when you are interested in having a conversation. As of right now, you continue strawman arguments.

In other news, all guys have to do is move out to the bush where the only competition are kangaroos and claim everyone else needs to man up. It's hard to lose anything in a divorce when you're piss poor.

Nope. I'm sick of game denial instantly becoming A-OK as soon as it's about marriage and I'm sick of hearing 'poor me' whining about the evil wimmens that's also apparently forbidden when you arrive at the forum trying to fuck random women but suddenly becomes OK on the forum when you're talking about settling down.

It's weak, unmanly and regardless of whether this forum is about restore-the-west or enjoy-the-decline weak and unmanly attitudes are not to be supported.

"Life's not fair. Why can't I get paid even if I don't turn up for work? Society is broken!"

"Life's not fair. Why do I need to lift to get muscles? Society is broken!"

Life is not fair. Why can't I enjoy the riches and debauchery of living in Sodom or Gomorrah while also obtaining a loyal 18 year old virgin 8+ to sire my spawn? Society is broken!"

Life is not fair. Why aren't women willing to sacrifice their looks, their health, their 20's, their career and their autonomy to provide me with a family while I fuck random skanks?" Society is broken!"



So where are you at, Samseau? Last week you were calling me a whoremonger for not wholesale disavowing the life and times of Hugh Heffner. Now you're selling the idea that adultery is OK? I don't remember the part in the Bible where it says "thou shalt not commit adultery unless by prior arrangement with your wife".

[CJ_W]

(10-09-2017 09:29 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 07:41 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

...

Life is not fair. Why can't I enjoy the riches and debauchery of living in Sodom or Gomorrah while also obtaining a loyal 18 year old virgin 8+ to sire my spawn? Society is broken!"

Life is not fair. Why aren't women willing to sacrifice their looks, their health, their 20's, their career and their autonomy to provide me with a family while I fuck random skanks?" Society is broken!"

All you gotta do is own a Hollywood production company

[Leonard D Neubache]

(10-09-2017 09:21 PM)rainy Wrote:  

...
For the most part, yes, unless you married the wrong woman. Hence why I married a woman from EE, not so I can cheat but rather due to her general attitude and outlook on life. Her attitude is essentially to concentrate on the home, the children which will come and, boys will be boys, just keep it out of the household and make sure you're providing for the family.

If you marry some liberal slut who's looking for other men, well you're with the wrong girl.

Of course, you're presenting extremes. That doesn't mean myself or others would just go out on the weekend to chase pussy while the wife is at home changing diapers, that's fucked up. But if I'm off in some other country on business and some hot piece of ass wants it for a single night, I might entertain the idea, and it has nothing to do with sweeping judgements on religion or values or my home life or ability to provide. I'm not looking to cheat, have no reason to seek it out, I'm happily married to a beautiful Eastern Euro, it's more that I can picture a situation at some point where I'd entertain the idea.

Men are biologically and physiologically programmed to seek out sex. Women are not. They're programmed to raise children and uphold the household. You seem to be lumping men who have their shit together and have created a healthy home, who might cheat a handful of times over their lives to the increasing number of neutered pussy boys who are puppets on a string to their wives.

Maybe the issue or disagreement here is comparisons to Western men. I care not about that. I'm a citizen of the world who has lived overseas and will again in the future. I really do not care what these feminized schmucks in liberal SF face with their wives. Not my problem. I'm not them. When you specifically date and then marry outside that circle, the rules of that circle do not apply.

Whatever your arrangement is, I wish you the best, but here's the fundamental difference between you and some of the other members.

You made a choice to go out and get something, and you did it.

You didn't whine and cry that you couldn't have what you wanted because the world wasn't fair.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 09:29 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Nope. I'm sick of game denial instantly becoming A-OK as soon as it's about marriage and I'm sick of hearing 'poor me' whining about the evil wimmens that's also apparently forbidden when you arrive at the forum trying to fuck random women but suddenly becomes OK on the forum when you're talking about settling down.

It's weak, unmanly and regardless of whether this forum is about restore-the-west or enjoy-the-decline weak and unmanly attitudes are not to be supported.

"Life's not fair. Why can't I get paid even if I don't turn up for work? Society is broken!"

"Life's not fair. Why do I need to lift to get muscles? Society is broken!"

Life is not fair. Why can't I enjoy the riches and debauchery of living in Sodom or Gomorrah while also obtaining a loyal 18 year old virgin 8+ to sire my spawn? Society is broken!"

Life is not fair. Why aren't women willing to sacrifice their looks, their health, their 20's, their career and their autonomy to provide me with a family while I fuck random skanks?" Society is broken!"

You're having conversations in your head now.

Everyone here understands life isn't fair. As men, we need to weigh the pros and cons of a situation and make a calculated risk. Make no mistake, marriage is a calculated risk these days. To not access risks that could change your life in huge ways is weak and unmanly.

Divorce can ruin men financially. No one wants to be a slave to the family courts for the rest of their lives. That has been what I and others were talking about when you came in screaming man up. It is something that should be considered when thinking of marriage.

Most of us, on the forum, value our freedom above all else.

Men shouldn't stick their heads in the sand when it comes to the impact of divorce because they think they will just be really big alphas and keep their women in line or they met some chick walking out of church.

Assess the risk and protect yourself the best you can. Most guys don't even think of the risks until they are in the shit. I'd rather guys see things fully before making the decision. We help each other here with the truth to the best of our ability.

I'm more of a relationship guy and not so much a one night stand guy. Even if the relationships only last a year or so. I could care less if someone cheats on me as long as I can walk away without dealing with lawyers, courts, alimony, loans, mortgages on a house I don't live in...

[Leonard D Neubache]

Personally I don't think you're serious at all. You seem to have no idea that raising a family is not a zero-loss game. You're not dumping cash in a stock option and checking up on it from time to time. Its' not "when I have the free time". It's all the time.

This is the kind of mentality that sadly creates self fulfilling prophesies. You're thinking of yourself, and all indications are that you're not open to altering that. Guys like you don't talk about how heart-wrenching it is to lose the woman you love or be torn apart from your kids. At best it's a token "she'll raise them wrong".

Nope. All you guys talk about is money. Money, money, money. You insult my arrangement because "it's easy to keep a woman when you're piss poor". Why, yes Sherlock, it is. Because my wife and I care about each other and our kids, not about retiring at 40 or buying a yacht or fucking strangers in the Bahamas while drunk on top shelf liquor.

So for guys like you, the woman is always going to ghost with your money no matter how hard you try to avoid it, because at the end of the day she's going to sense that you care less about her and the kids than your lifestyle and your precious freedom and your side-pieces and your $tacks, so why should she care about being loyal to you?

True family is sacrifice. Your time. Your money. Your freedom. Those unwilling to commit to that will end up bringing about the very disaster they so desperately tried to avoid.

[Vaun]

(10-09-2017 06:03 PM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 05:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

BlackDragon's advice sucks. Letting your women bang other dudes is a recipe for disaster. Moreover, children are best raised with both parents; good luck getting any access to your child if you decide to do the open relationship nonsense.

BlackDragon needs to answer more legal questions about his arrangements, it all looks like bullshit to me.

So, what options are there for a guy in the West, then? Staying single and childless forever or moving to some small village in Ukraine and starting a family with a local girl there?



Having kids out of the wedlock and letting the women take care of them by themselves? Donating to a sperm bank? I'm drawing a blank here.

If this is the only view for the future you have with women, then yes, do us a favor and go live in shed.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-09-2017 11:08 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

If this is the only view for the future you have with women, then yes, do us a favor and go live in shed.

Who's "us"?

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-09-2017 10:28 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Personally I don't think you're serious at all. You seem to have no idea that raising a family is not a zero-loss game. You're not dumping cash in a stock option and checking up on it from time to time. Its' not "when I have the free time". It's all the time.

This is the kind of mentality that sadly creates self fulfilling prophesies. You're thinking of yourself, and all indications are that you're not open to altering that. Guys like you don't talk about how heart-wrenching it is to lose the woman you love or be torn apart from your kids. At best it's a token "she'll raise them wrong".

Nope. All you guys talk about is money. Money, money, money. You insult my arrangement because "it's easy to keep a woman when you're piss poor". Why, yes Sherlock, it is. Because my wife and I care about each other and our kids, not about retiring at 40 or buying a yacht or fucking strangers in the Bahamas while drunk on top shelf liquor.

So for guys like you, the woman is always going to ghost with your money no matter how hard you try to avoid it, because at the end of the day she's going to sense that you care less about her and the kids than your lifestyle and your precious freedom and your side-pieces and your $tacks, so why should she care about being loyal to you?

True family is sacrifice. Your time. Your money. Your freedom. Those unwilling to commit to that will end up bringing about the very disaster they so desperately tried to avoid.

I don't even know who you're talking to at this point. You seem to be having a conversation with someone. Possibly even me, though I never said I wanted to get married or was even looking to get married. Most of your ramblings have nothing to do with me nor how I think.

You came in here insulting guys telling them to man up when you don't really know their situation nor their experience.

I do wonder how many of you guys actually married a western woman and not someone from a different country. Was your wife born in Australia or did you meet her in church while in another country?

It looks like the piss poor comment really rubbed you the wrong way. You also misquoted me. Maybe you should work on that.

Edited to add: I was reading about this guy who was married for some time. It ended in divorce. Unfortunately for him, he was in a state that awarded her lifetime spousal support. He helped raise his kids to become adults. Ten year plus later he is still paying her spousal support. She makes sure she only works part time because she doesn't want to give up that money, money, money that Leonard doesn't care about. The guy decided to retire since he was ready to get social security. He moved to another country where he could live better on lower monthly income. Through his daughter, he found out his ex-wife went to court to try and get more of his social security. They sent him the notice to a old US address even though the ex knew he was out of country. He ended up having to fly back and go through court (pay lawyers) in order fight it. In the end, she ended up getting some more even though the guy hasn't been married to this woman for 10 plus years. He is having to live on less and less. Even moving to a different country to try and live a decent lifestyle with what little he has.

I'm not interested in that type of sacrifice. If you are, all the power to you.

[AntiMediocrity]

A lot of discussion on who's to blame, when it's WHAT'S to blame instead. The CULprit is the CULture. Stalin is on point - Western cultures glorify and even glamourize sexuality and with it infidelity so it's become a normalcy. I'm a lot less of a "sexual deviant" after moving to Poland, because engaging in NSA sex is frowned upon nevermind sleeping with more than one person at once.

Meanwhile in the UK girls are told to stray from their BF because "they deserve to be happy and the guy deserves to suffer for putting on weight/not giving enough gifts/not paying the bill at the restaurant/working too many hours."

And guys are not properly informed on masculinity, hell the culture even dissuades traditional masculine traits. How are girls supposed to be loyal if the culture doesn't propagate it and the males supposed to be masculine if masculinity is stigmatised?

Men who were worshipped for having masculine traits are now vilified.
Women who were worshipped for being homemakers are now "slaves"

Video gamers were one vilified for engaging in too much fantasy indulgence. Now gaming is a legitimate sport.
Women who hadn't settled down and instead pursued pointless endeavours were once considered peculiar. Now they are independent.

Culture has done a 180, not people.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(10-10-2017 12:40 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(10-09-2017 10:28 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

...

Edited to add: I was reading about this guy who was married for some time. It ended in divorce. Unfortunately for him, he was in a state that awarded her lifetime spousal support. He helped raise his kids to become adults. Ten year plus later he is still paying her spousal support. She makes sure she only works part time because she doesn't want to give up that money, money, money that Leonard doesn't care about. The guy decided to retire since he was ready to get social security. He moved to another country where he could live better on lower monthly income. Through his daughter, he found out his ex-wife went to court to try and get more of his social security. They sent him the notice to a old US address even though the ex knew he was out of country. He ended up having to fly back and go through court (pay lawyers) in order fight it. In the end, she ended up getting some more even though the guy hasn't been married to this woman for 10 plus years. He is having to live on less and less. Even moving to a different country to try and live a decent lifestyle with what little he has.

I'm not interested in that type of sacrifice. If you are, all the power to you.

The solution to avoiding that fate is to not get married at all, not to get married and cheat.

What does that even have to do with what Leonard is talking about? He was just saying that if you want to choose a traditional lifestyle you have to take it seriously and act traditionally as well, not diminish it with fantasies of fucking chicks on the side because your wife is cool with it.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Maybe WWT is correct that I'm projecting a broader argument onto him personally but the anti-marriage doomsquad predictably drops into these thread and trots out the same borderline propaganda with predictable reliability.

"I know a guy who had a shitty divorce."

Interesting. Nobody ever says "I know a guy with tight game who chose his wife carefully and acted as a stalwart provider and defender who's wife suddenly and unexpectedly turned feral for no discernible reason at all."

"I know a guy who had a shitty divorce."

Wow. I know 20 guys that have great monogamous marriages, who also have kids and have maintained that arrangement into the next generation. They range from workaday plebs through to millionaires. Several share a room with their wives in the local retirement home. Miraculous, really, that they're not running their electric wheelchairs down to the pub to game 18 year olds because their wife is 80 and looks like a waterlogged ballsack. Meanwhile I know another 20 guys who selfishly spent every dollar they ever earned on themselves and are now wallowing in the same kind of lonely misery as the post-wall cat-ladies we all ridicule.

Marriage haters:

Deny game.
Ignore successes of others.
Focus on horror stories.
Only see negatives.

MGTOW incels:

Deny game.
Ignore successes of others.
Focus on horror stories.
Only see negatives.

[Paracelsus]

(10-10-2017 03:13 AM)AntiMediocrity Wrote:  

A lot of discussion on who's to blame, when it's WHAT'S to blame instead. The CULprit is the CULture. Stalin is on point - Western cultures glorify and even glamourize sexuality and with it infidelity so it's become a normalcy. I'm a lot less of a "sexual deviant" after moving to Poland, because engaging in NSA sex is frowned upon nevermind sleeping with more than one person at once.

Meanwhile in the UK girls are told to stray from their BF because "they deserve to be happy and the guy deserves to suffer for putting on weight/not giving enough gifts/not paying the bill at the restaurant/working too many hours."

And guys are not properly informed on masculinity, hell the culture even dissuades traditional masculine traits. How are girls supposed to be loyal if the culture doesn't propagate it and the males supposed to be masculine if masculinity is stigmatised?

Men who were worshipped for having masculine traits are now vilified.
Women who were worshipped for being homemakers are now "slaves"

Video gamers were one vilified for engaging in too much fantasy indulgence. Now gaming is a legitimate sport.
Women who hadn't settled down and instead pursued pointless endeavours were once considered peculiar. Now they are independent.

Culture has done a 180, not people.

I actually wonder as part of this whether our massive, on-demand online library of porn is contributing to this as well, in a similar way that food companies are pushing obesity levels in the West through deployment of powerful psychological tools in advertising (convenience being the first and most potent of these).

For example, we know women weren't shaving their pussies en masse until porn took over the Internet. Porn itself wasn't easily available. Sure, sex has always been used to sell shit, but hardcore porn used to have gatekeepers: if you really wanted footage of women stretching their assholes out with oversized dildos, you generally had to pay for it, and go through a lot of raincoat/brown paper bag/sunglasses/walk into demurely-decorated doorways in specialist sex stores/walk into small theatres which smelled really bad. It wasn't easily attainable, which meant its capacity to affect culture was much less. Now you have that sort of shit available on a Google search.

Not saying it's causative or determinative, but we might find one day that online porn is just as destructive as unregulated smoking advertising is/was.

[worldwidetraveler]

(10-10-2017 04:10 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

The solution to avoiding that fate is to not get married at all, not to get married and cheat.

What does that even have to do with what Leonard is talking about? He was just saying that if you want to choose a traditional lifestyle you have to take it seriously and act traditionally as well, not diminish it with fantasies of fucking chicks on the side because your wife is cool with it.

This dude, in the story, never came across as someone who cheated. I have never cheated on someone I was committed too. That is just my preference. I don't think that alone will save a marriage. I would be surprised if anyone here would think that to be honest.

Leonard was talking about a lot of things that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I guess he felt the need to lecture us about sacrifice and chasing money, money, money. Sacrifice has it's limit for most reasonable people. Most just want to be able to retire with some peace of mind. The story I posted, in my opinion, isn't sacrifice but slavery. It wasn't about greed but being able to retire after raising kids and have a nice lifestyle. For some reason wanting that is akin to buying yachts and fucking whores.

I can't blame anyone if they decide it isn't worth it. I definitely won't lecture them and tell them to man up for not playing a game that could affect them negatively for the rest of their lives.

People stay together and break up for all sorts of reasons. Men should go into marriage with their eyes open without thinking this couldn't happen to them because they are alpha. Trust your guts if something doesn't feel right. If it fails, take your lumps and deal with the consequences. Don't go into marriage thinking your alphaness is all you need. I know many here would be shocked, but even alphas get divorced. Some here act like being alpha is some kind of super power.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-10-2017 04:46 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Deny game.

Don't agree that game trumps everything, especially on decades-long time frame.

(10-10-2017 04:46 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Ignore successes of others.

When they are a statistical minority so small that they become irrelevant, yes.

(10-10-2017 04:46 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Focus on horror stories.

Statistics, science, personal experiences, daily observations, and yes, horror stories.

(10-10-2017 04:46 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Only see negatives.

See both the positives and the negatives, then decide that the negatives far outweigh the positives.

[armenia4ever]

There will always be negatives and risks in life. Yes, you can balance them how you see fit.

We can however call it as we all see it. There's one thing I see alot of from all the marriage bashers: They will rant about how marriage is terrible and indefinitely corrupted because there are no good women out there, while they contribute to that decline and discourage men from even bothering. Sure there are plenty of negatives, but plenty of positives as well. The positives as Leonard points out are either downplayed or ignored.

Feminism for all it's horrid and destructive worldview implications made it easier for men to score. Not just skanks were putting out for men with good game, but even more traditional chicks who one just had to bring their inner "slut" to the surface. Sure, for the latter it might have happened anyway, but the effects are still there.

We can't complain about how the family and marriage structures in society are being annihilated while we enjoy and make use of every second of it. Sure some of us will choose to bang sluts and refuse marriage. Plenty of reasons for this.

Some of us though want to rebuild. That happens through marriage and a stable family unit. It's a multigenerational long game - a demographic one. There's no way around that. Furthermore if you want to go down this path, you better treat your potential wife like a wife - one you want to build a family with - not another girl to be pumped and dumped. We can't show our sons how to be men and our daughters how to be women if we don't lead our families by example.

Leading by example is hard. It's long hours in the trenches. Often its doing all the shit no one else will do. It's not just showing how things are done, it's also showing what you do when you truly love someone. It means getting your ass out of bed at 3am to give your infant a bottle and change his diaper because your wife is exhausted from being a new mother. There's no real recognition for it. People aren't going to see it. You don't get paid for it. It and all the other things you for you wife will build that love, loyalty, etc.

What game helps with is finding the right girl worthy of this - instead of the multitude that would use it and hypergamously throw it away. Sure prepare in case everything implodes.Worried about divorce, custody battles, and alimony in the future? Move to a state like Nevada, sign a prenup, ect. But don't act like that's the assured outcome if you plan to have no loyalty, gratitude, or love toward that woman. Getting shit on the side? That tears apart the sexual bond between a husband and wife.

Yes, there are risks. But how do you want to live your life?

One can chose to remain unmarried, do their own thing, etc. If you must, contribute toward the cause and support those of us who undertake the task of rebuilding western civilization in the most demanding method; building the families that will bring about a better future - one where divorce won't be this glorious easy thing that robs men of their money, dignity, kids, etc. Raising the kids with a world view antithetical to that and to change it won't happen instantly nor in a non-stable non-familial environment. We need the true nuclear family.

Speaking of positives - I've almost been married to my wife for two years. Two sons in about 20 months and we still having sex daily. In fact, she gets made if I don't wake her up to sex in the morning. Hell, sometimes I don't feel like it. I'm tired. But I still do because she needs me and it's part of my duties as a husband.
She wants me that much. Is this just down to good game on my part? No it's me picking the right girl and investing my time and effort in her and my family.

Sure, she still has her female nature. But at least I'm more prepared for it then I was before I stumbled across the manosphere. I know other men who are having success who aren't even "red-pilled". Go to a site like AKingsCastle. Those men are all husbands and fathers who are succeeding. But it takes alot of work. Let's not pull punches; most men don't want to put that kind of work in. Pumping and dumping is easier as is using your finances on yourself only. If that's what you want to do - fine. Just support those of us who are doing the hard work to rebuild - so that maybe your sons/daughters will have a better environment, assuming you have them - then we did when it came to finding a spouse, building a family, etc.

[DJ-Matt]

(10-09-2017 07:34 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

And where are you looking for this doormat? Tinder? Happy hour? God forbid you should step foot in a church, because it might be difficult to find a keeper that gargles your balls half way through the first date.

Funny and sobering.

[Samseau]

(10-09-2017 09:29 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

So where are you at, Samseau? Last week you were calling me a whoremonger for not wholesale disavowing the life and times of Hugh Heffner. Now you're selling the idea that adultery is OK? I don't remember the part in the Bible where it says "thou shalt not commit adultery unless by prior arrangement with your wife".

I have no idea what you're ranting about, amusing as it may be, because I was speaking with Dan Woolf about the best legal options for those who want kids and marriage. Not about what is right and wrong, but about what is legal vs. illegal.

Dan suggested that an open relationship with the mother of your children would be best, to which I replied that that advice sucks if it means avoiding legal marriage since it can seriously impact your potential custody rights of your children. I told him that marriage laws are de facto open relationships according to the courts nowadays, and therefore marriage with a strong-prenup is the best legal option for any man no matter his needs. Any divorce rate over 20% is way too high, and proper insurance planning must be accounted for.

It doesn't matter if you're a player who wants to chase strange, or a monogamous God-fearing type, marriage with pre-nup is always the best option because the courts do not consider adultery as a negative during divorce proceedings.

Now, if you're asking me what I think is right and proper, I would say to find a woman you can be faithful to and whom you think will be faithful in return. No need to chase new pussy if you're raising a family, but if some guys cannot do that yet still want to raise a family then I understand. I would advise them just to avoid marriage and children forever, but if they manage to find a woman who is cool with the whole alpha cad husband thing they should still get a marriage with a pre-nup in order to make sure they get full custody rights in case of the likely divorce.

Any other questions?

[General Stalin]

I think a lot of keyboard-playerism has contributed to this rose-colored-glasses fantasy of being able to marry a good woman who is perfectly fine with you sleeping with other women like you're some medieval monarch.

[Dan Woolf]

(10-10-2017 12:07 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Dan suggested that an open relationship with the mother of your children would be best, to which I replied that that advice sucks if it means avoiding legal marriage since it can seriously impact your potential custody rights of your children. I told him that marriage laws are de facto open relationships according to the courts nowadays, and therefore marriage with a strong-prenup is the best legal option for any man no matter his needs. Any divorce rate over 20% is way too high, and proper insurance planning must be accounted for.

Yeah, pretty much. I don't agree with everything on the post by Blackdragon but I think I agree with him in that getting legally tied to a woman is a mistake. But then again, I personally wouldn't put myself in a position where I have to think about custody rights etc. in the first place. And I think about the situation from a selfish perspective: "how can I keep most of my assets?" instead of "how can I ensure I get to see my kids?"

As for divorce rate of over 20% being too high, I guess that means that a man who wants to get married should relocate to one of the following countries:

Georgia
Nicaragua
South Africa
Mauritius
Lebanon
Egypt
Armenia
Kyrgyzstan
Macedonia
Montenegro
Mexico
Algeria
Albania
Tonga
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Malta
Ireland
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Azerbaijan
Seychelles
Syria
Jamaica
Colombia
Uzbekistan
Tajikistan
Libya
Guatemala
Bahamas
Vietnam
Chile
Uruguay

[Matsufubu]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography

I was surprised to see that Ukraine has the same divorce rate as the UK (42%). Most of Eastern Europe has a rate around the high thirties to mid forties, with Russia on 52%. Just mildly surprised as the general consensus here seems to be that EE women are safer. 71% for Portugal, Jesus that's nuts.

However, some stats on cohabitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohabitation

A few interesting parts:

Quote:

In 2001, researchers compared teenage children living in a cohabiting household against peers in single-parent households. The results showed Caucasian and Hispanic teenagers had lower performance in school, greater risk of suspension or expulsion than peers from single-parent households, and the same rate behavioral and emotional problems.

So even a single parent household is better for the kids. Huh.

Quote:

In 2002 the CDC found that for married couples the likelihood percentage of the relationship ending after 5 years is 20%, for unmarried cohabitators the likelihood percentage is 49%. After 10 years the likelihood percentage for the relationship to end is 33% for married couples and 62% for unmarried cohabitators.

Speaks for itself.

Quote:

One study on low to moderate income couples living with minor children found that respondents who became sexually involved within the first month of their relationship were correlated to lower scores of relationship quality among women. Another study found respondents to a mail-in survey self-reported higher levels of commitment in the cohabiting group, as well as lower relationship satisfaction and more negative communication.

Speaks for itself.

Quote:

University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite found that "16 percent of cohabiting women reported that arguments with their partners became physical during the past year, while only 5 percent of married women had similar experiences." Most cohabiting couples have a faithful relationship, but Waite's surveys also demonstrated that 20 percent of cohabiting women reported having secondary sex partners, compared to only 4 percent of married women.

There's plenty more of that if you want to read it all. Bottom line seems to be that if you want children, marriage is a better arrangement. If you don't want kids then don't get married.

[Samseau]

According to the best stats I can find, there are roughly 6 million car crashes per year in the USA, give or take a few hundred thousand. There are roughly 250 million registered vehicles in the USA. Somewhere between 30-40K of those crashes are fatal.

That means there is a 2.4% of getting into an accident, with about .001% of these accidents being fatal. And yet everyone buys car insurance.

Meanwhile, divorce rates are around 40-50%, most of them which basically fuck your life forever, financially and emotionally, and yet guys pretend marriage isn't a risk or anything. Ooooooookay guyise, whatever you say!!

Always get a prenup, the only form of marriage insurance there is. If she doesn't understand this, she wasn't worth it anyways.

[Matsufubu]

Do prenups protect you once there are children involved, though?

[Samseau]

(10-10-2017 04:30 PM)Matsufubu Wrote:  

Do prenups protect you once there are children involved, though?

I'm sure this varies on the state, but I'm not a divorce lawyer. I recommend to all men to do their homework. Paying for a divorce lawyer before you're married may seem expensive, but all insurance is cheaper than the alternative.

[Zona]

(10-10-2017 04:30 PM)Matsufubu Wrote:  

Do prenups protect you once there are children involved, though?

I'm no lawyer either, but I'm fairly certain that prenups do NOT apply to child custody or child support. You'll most likely get screwed on those unless you live in a state with 50-50 custody as the default. Even then you'll probably still end up on the hook for child support if you make more than your wife.

As far as a prenup holding up when it comes to assets you brought to the marriage, alimony, etc., I'm sure it depends on the state. Some states seem to enforce them while others don't. Like Samseau said, the best thing you can do is research the laws in your state and consult a divorce lawyer.