Quote: (09-02-2011 01:08 PM)ao85 Wrote:
Miller's point is
I asked for your point of view, not Miller's.
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Well actually, if you continue reading the article it goes into detail on how corruption pervades everyday life there, so I don't really see how he negates my point.
He negates your point because:
A. He actually is a Russian, not an American whose expertise on the subject comes solely from Wikipedia.
B. He has not had to kill or bribe to succeed.
Unless you can show that he killed someone to reach his current station in life as an adult (you did, after all, claim that one HAD to do this to get anywhere if born in Russia), your entire point is negated.
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My original point was that it is far tougher being a minority in Europe than in the US, because the societies there are more homogenous and national identity is more tied to ethnic identity. He countered that there were 15% Muslims in Europe. My point is that he has nothing to be proud of - the fact that that minority group (justifiably or not, that's not the point) feels isolated and disconnected from society and very few members have risen to leadership positions proves that the US is a far more welcoming country to various ethnic groups than Europe is.
1. One inquiry for one group in one country does not prove that point. You will need far more evidence than that establish the very broad claim you are making (that immigrant life is much harder in Europe than in the USA). All you've done so far is cite an inquiry into the minds of a few young Dutch muslims which in itself cannot reliably establish greater hardship for all European immigrants over American ones.
2. Such opinions are also very common in the USA among some minority groups, who feel targeted, disconnected, marginalized and entirely isolated from society. Many immigrants often feel economically marginalized and shunned not just by ethnocentrism/nativism but by government policy. There are quite a few minorities who feel actively exploited not just by xenophobes, but by the government itself.
3. The US is much more unequal than its Western European peers(and nearly all developed nations, for that matter). This is a major factor when it comes to immigrants, who tend to start off lower on the economic totem pole than the native born-there is more distance between them and their native peers in the USA than there would be in Europe (or most other developed nations).
4. Whether their complaints are justifiable or not is relevant. You are making a broad claim here regarding the general difficulty of immigrant experiences in different places. You will not be able to rely on perception alone to make any conclusions here. You have to take an objective look at their conditions as well.
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Actually, I was quoting the person right above me.
Yes, and creating strawmen at the same time.
I am asking again: Who in here tried to claim that China would fill a hypothetical power vacuum left by the USA with greater benevolence?
The "person above you" ('Rah') made no such claim, so I must assume that you are creating a strawman here.
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My main point, though, is look at any other country in the world. With the exception of Western Europe and Northeast Asia,
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Singapore, Israel...all places in which I could easily think of being and all located distinctly outside of both Western Europe and Northeast Asia.
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And my main point w/ regard to Western Europe and Northeast Asia is that those countries have their national identity strongly tied to their ethnic identity that makes assimilation harder.
You haven't established this claim at all, and it is likely that you never will given its complete lack of accuracy.
This may be the case in Japan and S. Korea, but many states in Western Europe maintain very open immigration policies (as open, if not more so than the US) and have many well assimilated immigrants. Tensions obviously exist (there is no utopia on Earth), but their presence alone does not indicate that the immigrant experience in these places is harsher and/or more difficult than it is in the USA. Having been close to the immigrant experience on both sides of the Atlantic, I can say that I also find no anecdotal substantiation for your claim.
One could conceivably make the claim that assimilation is also rather uncommon in the USA-this is a highly divided nation, and many of those divisions (social and economic) run along deep racial lines.
The bottomline, however, is that I do not believe that one would necessarily be objectively worse off in many parts of Western Europe and other parts of the world. You've given no convincing reason to even consider the contrary.
The fact is that, as good as the USA can be, there are other nations that are also good. The USA has its unique benefits, money/income opportunity being the largest one (and the reason so many wish to come here), but it isn't the only show in town when it comes to maintaining a good quality of life, nor is it necessarily the best one. People are right to point this out.
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The UK.....is so closely linked to the US culturally and politically that it's not really a fair argument to say that it represents a distinct alternative.
This is just daft.
The USA and the United Kingdom have close historical bonds, but they are not nearly close enough to be indistinguishable. There are as many deep cultural differences present between the two as there are similarities, and anyone who has personal familiarity with both places/cultures (via residence or relatives) or has any understanding of their individual histories (read: anyone who took global studies in grade school) will know this.
This statement is beyond absurd.
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There just seems to be alot of America hate. Sure, some of it is merited, but look at the state of the world in general....the vast majority of the world has far more dysfunction than the US...it's hard to see as a tourist or an expat, but there's a reason why people still want to move to the US.
People move to the USA for money and economic opportunity. That doesn't preclude dysfunction.
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time.