[TheFinalEpic]

I remember going to Cuba in 2002. Felt like I was in 1952. Guess that's what Communism does to a country.

[Off The Reservation]

(11-26-2016 03:35 AM)Traktor Wrote:  

(11-26-2016 03:17 AM)Clemmo Wrote:  

The Cuban-Americans in Miami sureare enjoying the news about Castros death.

http://twitter.com/CNN/status/802416871387623424

Miami Cubans may just be the most obnoxious breed of humans on Earth, up there with Zionist Israeli Jews.

Mistakes made by the US, even massive ones for example in Syria, or even if the US were evil, do not make for a magical black and white narrative that suddenly makes Castro a good person or a good leader.

You are essentially repeating the Marxist propaganda about Castro, that he somehow opposed a global elite. The Marxist story is the same in every country everywhere and you have spit it back at us like a good unthinking soldier. The enemy ("the" capitalists, or anyone with resources or capital) control everyone and everything in some grand unbreakable power structure and your revolutionary bloodbath hero opposes "them." There is a great and powerful "they" who rule the world, and "they" can only be stopped by "me." Get behind "me," and "we" will stop the "they." If "I" have to do something evil, its ok because "we" are against the "they."

There is no global "they" which Castro fought against. He was just another sociopath that had the good fortune of living on a basically lesser important island, so that he could continue his atrocities for decades. He tortured, killed, starved tens of thousands. There is no free speech in Cuba. Every block has a government paid spy known to neighbors who reports any anti-Communist statements.

The fact that some other evil may have taken place in the world by other people who oppose Castro does not change the nature of what Castro was. Miami Cubans know and fled this and built a great life made possible by freedom. Your statement about them and Jews is in fact a real live example of racism by definition, and a rare example of a racist statement on this forum.

Despite your seemingly strong analysis on many other subjects in your posts about Syria and other topics, by your own words on Castro your statements can called out for what they are. Useful idiot, maybe. Communist, Racist, one who wishes the world to be ruled by brute force?

Thanks to the evil bankers for the mistake of allowing me freedom of speech so that I can call a spade a spade, and oppose your lies hidden behind the bait and switch trick of "look over here at these evil bankers" while quickly making up a narrative about how Castro was supposedly great.

[Traktor]

(11-26-2016 11:55 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Mistakes made by the US, even massive ones for example in Syria, or even if the US were evil, do not make for a magical black and white narrative that suddenly makes Castro a good person or a good leader.

Cuba is a staunch ally of Syria and has sent money, arms and men to aid Assad to thwart US/Western backed Islamist headchopping fanatics.

Quote:

You are essentially repeating the Marxist propaganda about Castro, that he somehow opposed a global elite. The Marxist story is the same in every country everywhere and you have spit it back at us like a good unthinking soldier. The enemy ("the" capitalists, or anyone with resources or capital) control everyone and everything in some grand unbreakable power structure and your revolutionary bloodbath hero opposes "them." There is a great and powerful "they" who rule the world, and "they" can only be stopped by "me." Get behind "me," and "we" will stop the "they." If "I" have to do something evil, its ok because "we" are against the "they."

It isn't propaganda, it's fact. Cuba, Russia, Iran and Syria are in the one camp. One strike against one is a strike against all. That's why Russia sent troops to Syria and would get Cuba's back if Trump tried the same with Havana, likewise with Iran.

Quote:

There is no global "they" which Castro fought against. He was just another sociopath that had the good fortune of living on a basically lesser important island, so that he could continue his atrocities for decades. He tortured, killed, starved tens of thousands. There is no free speech in Cuba. Every block has a government paid spy known to neighbors who reports any anti-Communist statements.

So much so that the globalists made 638 attempts to take him out but failed miserably. Yeah they saw him like Gaddaffi and Assad as a non threat. Give me a break. Freedom of speech, democracy you say. The US track record on that isn't exactly stellar either.

Quote:

The fact that some other evil may have taken place in the world by other people who oppose Castro does not change the nature of what Castro was. Miami Cubans know and fled this and built a great life made possible by freedom. Your statement about them and Jews is in fact a real live example of racism by definition, and a rare example of a racist statement on this forum.

So my opposition to Israel makes me an anti-Semite? Jog on dude.

Quote:

Despite your seemingly strong analysis on many other subjects in your posts about Syria and other topics, by your own words on Castro your statements can called out for what they are. Useful idiot, maybe. Communist, Racist, one who wishes the world to be ruled by brute force?

First I was a global Marxist, then an anti-Semite, now I'm a racist. For God's sake Alt Righters, make up your mind.

Quote:

Thanks to the evil bankers for the mistake of allowing me freedom of speech so that I can call a spade a spade, and oppose your lies hidden behind the bait and switch trick of "look over here at these evil bankers" while quickly making up a narrative about how Castro was supposedly great.

Well if the bankers have their way, you will be living in a neo-feudal, debt ridden tyranny and internet freedom wont mean shit. In fact, they have already begun curtailing the internet by blacklisting pro-Russian journos and media outlets such as RT and Press TV not to mention their attempts at silencing whistleblowers like Assange. Your Cuban exile friends in Miami would have no qualms about helping Assange and Snowden to Guantanamo Bay which as we know is the biggest torture centre in Cuba run and controlled by........the USA.

What this thread has shown is a shocking grasp of international geo-politics by many Americans on here who grew up amidst Cold War paranoia and flag waving Chuck Norris/Rambo flicks, and shout Barry Obama is a communist.

[JayMillz]

(11-26-2016 01:09 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Can we now stop the Cuban refugee policy?

[puckerman]

He was more popular with Americans than with Cubans.

I was at Gold's Gym, where I sometimes watch CNN by accident. They were all acting like Jesus or the Pope had died.

[chakalaka]

Fidel Castro opening a luxurious hotel in Cuba:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8p4ams36AA

It´s for the revolution he answers when asked by the reporter why can´t a cuban afford to spend the night or just have a drink. Or the simple contradiction of opening a capitalist hotel in a communist regime. No it wasn´t for the revolution scumbag. The real answer was first to fill his pockets. Second because communism is a failure.

[puckerman]

A good movie to watch is Lost City. Andy Garcia stars in it and directed it. It's about a night club owner in Havana in the 1950's. Hollywood reacted with a collective yawn because most of them worship Castro. Garcia himself is of Cuban descent:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343996/?ref_=ttpl_pl_tt

Here are two books which look interesting, although I haven't read either one:

Exposing the Real Che Guevara: And the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him
https://www.amazon.com/Exposing-Real-Che...bc?ie=UTF8

Fidel: Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant
https://www.amazon.com/Fidel-Hollywoods-...bc?ie=UTF8

[Going strong]

(11-26-2016 12:40 PM)Traktor Wrote:  

..... Your Cuban exile friends in Miami would have no qualms about helping Assange and Snowden to Guantanamo Bay which as we know is the biggest torture centre in Cuba run and controlled by........the USA.

biggest? You mean there are others? In socialist paradise? No way!

I mean, you just clearly implied (and I won't follow you there, Capitalist Slanderer) that there are several "torture centers" in Cuba, the USA having control of just one of them ("Guantanamo")...

(Or do you mean that the USA control other parts of the Cuban territory and have installed torture centers in them, across the country? outrageous claim...)

[Quintus Curtius]

So far, I'm seeing a lot of discussion about the merits of state-controlled systems vs. so-called "free market" systems. That's fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't really get us to the substance of what we should be asking: the personality and character of Castro himself.

Those who may have read a biography of him can help us with this discussion.

1. What was he like as a man?
2. What were the strong points, and weak points, of his character?
3. What traits propelled him to success, or hurtled him to his doom?

I think it would be useful to consider these questions. They will be far more profitable for us to consider than the same old sloganeering.

[Irenicus]

(11-26-2016 01:07 PM)chakalaka Wrote:  

Fidel Castro opening a luxurious hotel in Cuba:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8p4ams36AA

It´s for the revolution he answers when asked by the reporter why can´t a cuban afford to spend the night or just have a drink. Or the simple contradiction of opening a capitalist hotel in a communist regime. No it wasn´t for the revolution scumbag. The real answer was first to fill his pockets. Second because communism is a failure.

Again, a story from Yugoslavia.


There was a poet called Branko Chopich. He was beloved by everyone, especially children. My uncle, who was one of the best students in his high school, had a private audience with him (alongside other students, who also were the best in their schools). He got a signed copy of one of his books (which got lost during the war). Back then, it was a great honor when you had an audience with a famous writer. It was like an audience with Elvis Presley, who would give you a signed record.


Although he was a Socialist and a WW2 vet (he fought with the Partisans), he thought that there is something wrong with it, and that it needs to be changed. That was too much for UDBA (our secret service), and they silenced him (by throwing him off the bridge, and declaring it suicide).


Socialism is evil. Communism is an utopia which we will never reach. We can criticize the free market (or, as Marx would call it, Capitalism), but still, despite all it's faults, is the best socio - economical system to date. Alternatives ended in misery, without exception. I see it's effects by just looking around me.

[Hell_Is_Like_Newark]

(11-26-2016 11:14 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

I remember going to Cuba in 2002. Felt like I was in 1952. Guess that's what Communism does to a country.

I went to Laos the same year. It was like the place had been frozen in amber when the French left after their military defeat. The closest thing to 'new' was some Soviet style concrete construction here and there.

The only exception was the new roads the Chinese had built (made my trip easy).

[Hell_Is_Like_Newark]

(11-26-2016 12:59 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

He was more popular with Americans than with Cubans.

I was at Gold's Gym, where I sometimes watch CNN by accident. They were all acting like Jesus or the Pope had died.

The mother of a laborer who works for me from time to time fled Cuba decades ago. She taught at Columbia University (not as a full professor) and found herself ostracized by the staff for telling people what it was REALLY like to live under Communism.

She had no love of Castro and (after finding out I was not politically Left) would unload on me about the hell she went through back in Cuba.

[RedPillUK]

(11-26-2016 01:26 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

So far, I'm seeing a lot of discussion about the merits of state-controlled systems vs. so-called "free market" systems. That's fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't really get us to the substance of what we should be asking: the personality and character of Castro himself.

Those who may have read a biography of him can help us with this discussion.

1. What was he like as a man?
2. What were the strong points, and weak points, of his character?
3. What traits propelled him to success, or hurtled him to his doom?

I think it would be useful to consider these questions. They will be far more profitable for us to consider than the same old sloganeering.

"This thread is not going in the direction I was hoping for."

[DannyAlberta]

As someone who's been to Cuba in the last year, I won't say much other than encourage you all to go at least one time in your life. I think you'll be able to judge for yourself whether the system there works and for whom.

As for the reaction of many progressive politicians in the West to Castro's death, I can say it no better than I said on Twitter earlier today:

"Leftist politicians' unabashed admiration for #Castro gives valuable insight into what they would actually do to us, if they could. #cdnpoli"

[la bodhisattva]

My father was a successful sugar cane producer prior to the revolution. I got to read about his about his execution by the firing squads in the new state-owned newspaper! Viva la literacy! Viva la communism! Viva la Castro!

[MajorStyles]

I was in Cuba twice, and I had to receive medical service on one occasion. My wife was pregnant with our daughter and one morning she could not feel the baby kicking. At the recommendation of the hotel owner, we went to a local hospital in Santiago De Cuba to check it out.

The Doctor placed a Pinard Horn on her stomach. I remember thinking, "That shit looks primitive." The doctor said that the baby was still moving and everything was ok, so at the end of the day, the device worked. I found out later that the Pinard Horn was invented in France and used predominantly during the 1800s. In most countries, this device has been replaced by the Fetal Doppler. However, they still use the Pinard Horn in Cuba (as well as other poor countries). Here is a photo of one:



A few days later, I met a European man recovering from a heart valve replacement. He had the surgery done in Santiago, and the doctors told him that the mechanical valve would last 20 years. As some of you might know, mechanical valves are supposed to last a lifetime; unless, of course, you are given one of the early 1.0 models from the 1970s. Those ones have less durability than the current ones. I deduced that the heart surgery doctors there are using outdated valves.

Long story short...two anecdotal experiences showed me that the Cuban medical profession was lagging behind the rest of the world. Prior to those experiences, I heard the reverse; that the country was an excellent place for medical service (note how Hugo Chavez sought treatment in Cuba when he was suffering from cancer). Some people will blame the embargo, of course. I can't speak to that, but I do know that from what I saw, they were behind in terms of medical technology.

[Cattle Rustler]

Deep thoughts by Cattle Rustler:

Fidel spent his entire life fighting capitalism...and died on Black Friday, proving once again that capitalism prevails.

He was awed when he saw some of the deals and had a heart attack.

"The prices on Black Friday are so low that you'd be willing to die for them!" - Fidel before dying

[tomtud]

I have been to Cuba several times and observed a proud people who live on an island with an incredible coastline. Politics isn't discussed as I am aware of the paranoia of locals being sent to jail for any negativity to the regime.

Before Castro, Fulgencio Batista ruled the island. He was no better than Castro if you read up on his history. He didn't receive the same amount of negativity from the US because he "played ball" sort of speak. the gap between the rich and poor would have grown just as it did in other places had Batista and successors continued to rule.

IMHO based on statistics, I think Cubans didn't fare that badly considering they have a high literacy rate, free healthcare and schooling among other things. It's one of the safest places on earth to visit.

On the other hand, I did see Cubans labouring away for peanuts when compared to others. However, it's better than zero. The lack of fair elections and government controls on freedom of speech etc made him look like a dictator. Perhaps all along he was? However, his message rang amongst the people. The imperialists had to go and the inequalities need to stop. He was a beloved figure when he rolled into Havana.
Which direction Cuba goes from here, only time will tell.

[Samseau]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-francis-...27432.html

Quote:

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis said the death of Cuba's revolutionary leader Fidel Castro was "sad news" and that he was grieving and praying for his repose.

Francis expressed his condolences in a Spanish-language message to Fidel's brother, President Raul Castro on Saturday.

The pope, who met Fidel Castro when he visited Cuba last year, said he had received the "sad news" and added: "I express to you my sentiments of grief."

Fidel Castro, who was a professed atheist, was baptized as a Catholic and educated in schools run by the Jesuits, the religious order of which the pope is a member.

[Killer Joe]

It's ironic to see so many celebrating his death, considering he died peacefully in his sleep at the age of 90, after ruling for almost 50 years and stepping down at a time of his choosing, rather than being succesfully assassinated in any of the 600+ CIA attempts.

Personally, I believe he was very much a gangsta, with strong game, who succeeded at everything he set his mind to. It sucks that he was a communist, but you have to remember this was the Cold War; many had a strong urge to "fight the power" and this power was in the form of a pro-US lackey. After taking power the US wanted nothing to do with Castro, so naturally he switched sides to the Soviet Union, and implemented socialism in his country, with mixed results.

[Hell_Is_Like_Newark]

(11-26-2016 02:10 PM)la bodhisattva Wrote:  

My father was a successful sugar cane producer prior to the revolution. I got to read about his about his execution by the firing squads in the new state-owned newspaper! Viva la literacy! Viva la communism! Viva la Castro!

My Laotian tour guide's father was also executed by the communists. His crime was being a successful cattle farmer. Cuba, Laos, Cambodia, Russia, China... communism kills... the difference is just a matter of scale.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

He was Latin America's Robert Mugabe, admirable only for the sake of giving the middle finger to USA/Europe/UN but not nearly admirable enough to outweigh turning his country into a shithole. He deserves no praise or mourning like the one that he is currently receiving from mindless SJWs all around the world.

[wi30]

Does anyone have any good resources to learn about Cuba?

I'd love to read an unbiased account of what's been going on in Cuba the past 50 years.

I don't know enough to pass judgement; I've only been exposed to mainstream media sources about Cuba.

From what I've been told, Castro is an asshole who fucked up Cuba. But I'd love a book or website that digs deeper.

I read a 700 page book on the creation of the Panama Canal. Latin American history is fascinating.

[ed pluribus unum]

(11-26-2016 05:04 PM)wi30 Wrote:  

Does anyone have any good resources to learn about Cuba?

I'd love to read an unbiased account of what's been going on in Cuba the past 50 years.

I don't know enough to pass judgement; I've only been exposed to mainstream media sources about Cuba.

From what I've been told, Castro is an asshole who fucked up Cuba. But I'd love a book or website that digs deeper.

See Puckerman's reading list in post #82. Can't say Fontova's writing is unbiased, but it is certainly a counterpoint to the MSM/Hollywood/Limousine Liberal version of affairs.

[Quintus Curtius]

Since no one else is willing to talk about his actual character traits, or do much besides give political speeches, I'll give a few of my own opinions.

He was from the time he was young a strong-willed and headstrong man, certain of the correctness of his ideas and mission. It is probably true that in the beginning he genuinely wanted the best for his country, and was possessed of a burning desire to right the wrongs he saw all around him. Make no mistake: Cuba under his predecessors was little more than a huge plantation, exploited at will by corrupt elites and foreign powers.

He would pursue those ideas single-mindedly for decades, even after all available evidence suggested that changing course would produce better results.

His success and survival owed more to the ineptitude of his enemies than it did to the soundness of his ideas or the brilliance of his plans. Communism was never embraced by more than a small minority of intellectuals, and if the Cuban people knew what he had in store for them, they would have lynched him the moment he arrived in Havana in 1959.

But if he was a dour fanatic, his enemies to the north played right into his hands by refusing to leave him alone, imposing one pointless embargo on him after another, and turning his island into little more than a hacienda for the use of himself and his cronies. In that respect, one can look up on the Castro era as something akin to the old proverb: "Evil against evil." Meaning that both he and his enemies deserved each other.

As time went on and isolation took its toll, he retreated more and more into dictatorial fantasies and self-aggrandizing delusion. Like Dionysius of Syracuse, a notorious tyrant of antiquity who was also lord of a small island, he found validation in his own longevity, thinking that it conferred on him legitimacy. It did not.

His appearance on the world scene and freakish survival owes more to accident than to his own abilities. Islands and peninsulas are notoriously easy to dominate for long periods. On balance, and taking the long term view, it would have been better had he never even been born. Cuba's economic developments under his rule would probably have occurred even without communism--look at Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, and Colombia today compared to what they were in 1950--once we consider the incredible work ethic of the Cuban people.

Against this damning indictment, we can possibly say a few positive words, although these do not begin to even the scales from the weight of the negatives already described above. He did provide some sense of national "pride" in the form of "cubanismo"; his social system did, it must be admittted, manage to raise the health and educational standards of the average person, when one looks at the median. But we can't say that this meager positive outweighs the accumulated negatives. Perhaps the final verdict on Castro must wait for another decade, in order to see how quickly the country climbs out of the stagnation his rule has left it in.

On balance, we can say for now that it would have been better had he never been born.