[Frost]

What do you believe regarding Gods, creation, eschatology, and the supernatural? More importantly, why do you believe it? What arguments or experiences were most influential and persuasive?

I've decided to invent a new religion, and I'd like some input/ideas:

http://www.thumotic.com/a-thumotic-manifesto/

[Mage]

I have already invented a new religion, but I will not reveal it to you, because you see - it is Me (peace be upon Me) who is the God's (hallowed be His Name) chosen Prophet (peace be upon Me), not you!

[BrewDog]

Think of someone you love unconditionally. Your mom or your wife or your kids. Would you love them unconditionally, yet willfully torment them?

I believe that a God that loves us unconditionally wouldn't plague children with brain cancer or deformities. He wouldn't send us to hell for eternity for merely not believing in the correct god. He wouldn't wipe us out with tsunamis and earthquakes and hurricanes.

I've decided that if there is a god, he must be a huge prick.

[Sooth]

(09-17-2016 03:40 PM)Mage Wrote:  

I have already invented a new religion, but I will not reveal it to you, because you see - it is Me (peace be upon Me) who is the God's (hallowed be His Name) chosen Prophet (peace be upon Me), not you!

I had this religion reviled to me last night in a PM.

I am Mages (peace be upon Mage) first apostle.

[Mage]

(09-17-2016 09:07 PM)Sooth Wrote:  

(09-17-2016 03:40 PM)Mage Wrote:  

I have already invented a new religion, but I will not reveal it to you, because you see - it is Me (peace be upon Me) who is the God's (hallowed be His Name) chosen Prophet (peace be upon Me), not you!

I had this religion reviled to me last night in a PM.

I am Mages (peace be upon Mage) first apostle.

Blessed be those who don't even know the tenets but believeth anyway.

[Phoenix]

Atheist, but recognize the purpose of religion.

I simply read the bible when I was 8, observed it was clearly nonsense.

I actually have more respect for polytheist religions, such as the Greeks and Romans originally had. It's closer to an objective concept of reality than monotheism, because at least you're breaking up different phenomena into sections (which each get their own god), so it preserves inquisition much better (i.e. at least you're talking about relationships between gods [natural phenomena] and at least you're trying to break them down into manageable sections).

[Belgrano]

(09-18-2016 04:01 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Atheist, but recognize the purpose of religion.

Same. Rational, sceptic atheist. If not for Islam, I'd probably agnostic.
The funny thing is that as an atheist who's worth his salt you'll end up studying various religions, their scriptures and beliefs much more and deeper than the average believer will ever do.

Otherwise I quite fancy Daoism, but I study it as a philosophy, not a religion.

[debeguiled]

It is pretty funny that the only people showing up in this thread are jokesters and atheists.

[Comte De St. Germain]

Deist. I believe in God, but that's really about it. I have my own theories and morals but that's too lengthy of a thing to type up and elaborate on.

[Truth Teller]

I'm a Roman Catholic, though closer to liberal Protestantism on some issues.

I believe it because I find the arguments in favor intellectually compelling.

[Mage]

(09-18-2016 12:36 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

It is pretty funny that the only people showing up in this thread are jokesters and atheists.

I am not really a jokster. I absolutely believe in God. But I cannot fully agree to any of the existing world religions so I have devised my own belief system that I constantly upgrade.

I know tho things for certain:

1) I will never be able to live pretending that material reality satisfies me. Thirst for transcendence is innate in me and has acted in my life as both blessing and a curse depending on my recognition of it. Like hunger is proof that there exits food, like a crater is a proof that there exists explosion, like a vagina is a proof that there exists a penis , so a thirst for transcendence is a proof that transcendence exists.

2)Since transcendence is above our generally current state where our highest property is our reason that allows us to view this world materialistically and that makes atheists so proud, it fallows that reason cannot contain a full model of transcendence, likely no more than a small fraction of the whole transcendence, ergo no fixed and reasonably explained religious, political or scientific system, nothing written down, nothing dogmatic, nothing codified and indexed can contain the whole truth. Therefore there are no right or wrong religions, political systems or scientific world views, but there are stages of a persons degree of closeness to the transcendence that are each defined by certain world view in religious, political and scientific plane. As the person progresses in the quest for transcendence his views must change according to the next degree of closeness to the revelation of transcendence. The existence of these stages predicts the existence of a spectrum of religions and philosophies, to satisfy the demands of each stage, that also is what we observe in the world.

[Elster]

I could never be as eloquent as mage but I would agree that transcendence is a compelling concept for many a mind, and something beyond the interest of comprehension of many others.
I do find it fascinating that if we were to take (human) reason as the sole "truth" then eventually we become entangled in an endless storm of paradox.
Our minds pretty much as our bodies are limited but somehow we can fathom the idea of how there is something greater, what or how is open to interpretation...

Quote:

no fixed and reasonably explained religious, political or scientific system, nothing written down, nothing dogmatic, nothing codified and indexed can contain the whole truth.

Reminds me of this passage

Roger Zelazny, Lord of light Wrote:

I have many names, and none of them matter. Names are not important. To speak is to name names, but to speak is not important. A thing happens once that has never happened before. Seeing it, a man looks upon reality. He cannot tell others what he has seen. Others wish to know, however, so the question him saying, 'What is it like, this thing you have seen?' So he tries to tell them. Perhaps he has seen the very first fire in the world. He tells them, 'It is red, like a poppy, but through it dance other colors. It has no form, like water, flowing everywhere. It is warm, like the sun of summer, only warmer. It exists for a time upon a piece of wood, and then the wood is gone, as though it were eaten, leaving behind that which is black and can be sifted like sand. When the wood is gone, it too is gone.' Therefore, the hearers must think reality is like a poppy, like water, like the sun, like that which eats and excretes. They think it is like to anything that they are told it is like by the man who has known it. But they have not looked upon fire. They cannot really know it. They can only know of it. But fire comes again into the world, many times. More men look upon fire. After a time, fire is as common as grass and clouds and the air they breathe. They see that, while it is like a poppy, it is not a poppy, while it is like water, it is not water, while it is like the sun, it is not the sun, and while it is like that which eats and passes wastes, it is not that which eats and passes wastes, but something different from each of these apart or all of these together. So they look upon this new thing and they make a new word to call it. They call it 'fire.'
If they come upon one who still has not seen it and they speak to him of fire, he does not know what they mean. So they, in turn, fall back upon telling him what fire is like. As they do so, they know from their own experience that what they are telling him is not the truth, but only part of it. They know that this man will never know reality from their words, though all the words in the world are theirs to use. He must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart, or remain forever ignorant. Therefore, 'fire' does not matter, 'earth' and 'air' and 'water' do not matter. 'I' do not matter. No word matter. But man forgets reality and remembers words. The more words he remembers, the cleverer do his fellows esteem him. He looks upon the great transformations of the world, but he does not see them as they were seen when man looked upon reality for the first time. Their names come to his lips and he smiles as he tastes them, thinking he knows them in the naming. The thing that has never happened before is still happening. It is still a miracle. The great burning blossom squats, flowing, upon the limb of the world, excreting the ash of the world, and being none of these things I have named and at the same time all of them, and this is reality-the Nameless.

[BrewDog]

Here's a fucked up thing... We may be our own God.

Do you think it's possible, that one day -in a thousand or million years - artificial intelligence may be so advanced as to run a simulation where the sims inside the machine believed they were living in a real world? If so, then the operators of these super powerful computers could run trillions of human/world simulations simultaneously.

And if so, is it more likely that our world is one of the trillions of computer simulations, or the actual one civilization that invents the technology in the future?

[scorpion]

Frost, you are smart enough to know better. This is a fool's errand. You can't just decide to invent a new religion expressly for the purpose of benefiting society. Religious belief doesn't work that way. The only modern "invented" religion with any sort of success is Scientology, which isn't really even a religion, being more accurately described as an organized crime syndicate masquerading as a scientific self-help program. No one is going to suddenly start believing in something because a bunch of guys on the internet came up with a slick pamphlet extolling the numerous benefits of said beliefs. The entire idea is pure hubris.

Furthermore, even if you could invent a new religion, the simple fact is the West does not need one. We already have a religion. In fact, we have the religion. You know, the one that not only has a proven track record of building the most wildly successful civilization the world has ever known, but which also has the benefit of being true. It's called Christianity. The way back is the way forward. All of your desired bullet points describing "The Product" are found in traditional Christian belief (which you well know). The fundamental error is the assumption that there is something wrong with Christianity, that it is somehow defective or obsolete. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Christianity in the West is currently suffering under the effects of decades of concentrated Cultural Marxist assault and subversion from within. Our society is weak because our faith is weak. There is not a single social ill we currently suffer that would not be drastically improved by a widespread resurgence in genuine, zealous Christian faith. If you want to save the West, preach the Gospel. There is no other alternative. Without Christ, Western Civilization simply does not exist.

A lot of men clearly have a problem with Christian belief. The most common objection is simply that they don't believe it's true. But I think the real reason is that they don't want to be told how to live, and they don't want to be accountable for their actions and choices. To those who doubt Christian belief, I ask you: suppose I could prove in your mind beyond all doubt that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, thus validating the Christian religion. If you believed that to be true, would you suddenly become a devout Christian? Or would you still still hold back? In my experience, contrary to all reason, many men would still refuse to believe even with such evidence. The heart of unbelief does not lie in logic or reason, it lies in pride and rebellion. Any man who is not willing to humble himself before God will never know truth.

[MMX2010]

I'm agnostic, but also believe that religion is necessary for any culture to succeed. And not all religions are equally capable of making a culture succeed. Since Christianity has the best track record, it's probably the best religion. I don't like anyone's chances of defeating Scorpion in a civilized debate about the merits / weaknesses of Christianity.

[BrewDog]

(09-18-2016 08:47 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

I'm agnostic, but also believe that religion is necessary for any culture to succeed. And not all religions are equally capable of making a culture succeed. Since Christianity has the best track record, it's probably the best religion. I don't like anyone's chances of defeating Scorpion in a civilized debate about the merits / weaknesses of Christianity.

Do you know how many humans that Christians have murdered? I guess that a few million is better than tens of millions, so I suppose you're right in your assessment that it's better than the others.

[Valentine]

One thing I know is certainly true is the Uncaused Cause i.e. the Kalām cosmological argument:

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

Though this doesn't prove the idea of a sentient God which manipulates our world around us, speaks to certain 'prophets' on Earth and cares specifically about only one species the Homo sapiens.

Therefore there is no proof that the major religions idea of God exists, but there is something else that must exist for the Universe to exist today.

Thus I'm an atheist as I don't see evidence of a God existing who judges what we do and may turn us to salvation or to eternal agony depending on the actions we take in life. Though I do see the correlation between atheism and plummeting birth rates, so I do agree that society as a whole would benefit from Christianity proliferating once again.

[Hannibal]

Jesus Christ never told His disciplines to murder in His name.

There is a big difference between Islam a religion that tells it's disciples to murder and a member of the religion that decides to murder for another reason.

Whenever atheists want to argue about Christianity (which is usually what they're familiar with), they always bring up the Old Testament because none of the violent shit is in the New Testament. It's hard to argue against "treat others the way you want to be treated" and "love thy neighbor" so you jump on whatever scripture you can dig up in Leviticus.

Fact is, the New Testament abrogated the Old Testament.

I believe in God, but I haven't decided which organized religion I want to go with. I was raised Catholic but I really do not care for the current pope. Heard some good things about Orthodox but there aren't any churches like that around here.

[BrewDog]

[quote='Hannibal' pid='1397016' dateline='1474254666']
Whenever atheists want to argue about Christianity (which is usually what they're familiar with), they always bring up the Old Testament because none of the violent shit is in the New Testa

=====================
So, you're saying that the Old Testament is not the word of God? That mean God that punished everyone? He gambled with Satan over Job's commitment. Why is it a sin to gamble when God gambled with the devil? What about the book of Revelation? That book that sends everyone to damnation? Is he a nice God? Does he unconditionally love us when he says he will send us to eternal fire for endless eternity for a single lifetime of not believing in the correct god?

Explain to me this, and hear me out, seriously... Children are born with horrible deformities and diseases. God says he loves us unconditionally. How do you account? Think of someone you love unconditionally. Would you let them have inoperable brain cancer and suffer? Your god does.

And explain this... A universe so complex would need a creator that also even more complex. A creator so complex as to create the universe would need an even more complex creator of himself. Where is that guy? We're not allowed to ask, are we? Because "God works in mysterious ways."

Jesus believers are simpletons. You're idiots that mean well, but you're still idiots with no education.

[debeguiled]

Thank you Hannibal.

[Kid Twist]

^ Brew, you know very little of the teachings and the person of Jesus Christ or you wouldn't type what you type. Whether you want to consent to those teachings or not, is a different matter. But you can't argue on bad terms, just like you can't tell the creator of the universe, someone out of time, what's "fair".

In a different post (too lazy to look right now) a guy posted on that topic, how silly it is for a single creature in the thousands and complexities of the evolution of all worlds and beings and animals gets to question why evil happens, without an eternal or larger context. As if it would make sense to you anyway (that's what God tells Job, btw).

Suffering is a mystery, but it is something which God has shared with us. That's the part you've never been taught, and where the mystery is.

[Mage]

(09-18-2016 08:25 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Frost, you are smart enough to know better. This is a fool's errand. You can't just decide to invent a new religion expressly for the purpose of benefiting society. Religious belief doesn't work that way. The only modern "invented" religion with any sort of success is Scientology, which isn't really even a religion, being more accurately described as an organized crime syndicate masquerading as a scientific self-help program. No one is going to suddenly start believing in something because a bunch of guys on the internet came up with a slick pamphlet extolling the numerous benefits of said beliefs. The entire idea is pure hubris.

Very true. Constructing a new artificial religion would be like those crazy linguists who tried to create universal language like Esperanto. It would never live on on a significant enough scale an instead of becoming the universal religion would just create more confusion.

(09-18-2016 08:25 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

A lot of men clearly have a problem with Christian belief. The most common objection is simply that they don't believe it's true. But I think the real reason is that they don't want to be told how to live, and they don't want to be accountable for their actions and choices. To those who doubt Christian belief, I ask you: suppose I could prove in your mind beyond all doubt that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, thus validating the Christian religion. If you believed that to be true, would you suddenly become a devout Christian? Or would you still still hold back? In my experience, contrary to all reason, many men would still refuse to believe even with such evidence. The heart of unbelief does not lie in logic or reason, it lies in pride and rebellion. Any man who is not willing to humble himself before God will never know truth.

Scorpion - I ask you: suppose I could prove in your mind beyond all doubt that Satan is the true lord of the universe and child sacrifice and opening your asshole to a high priest of satan is the only means of salvation thus validating the Satanist religion. If you believed that to be true, would you suddenly become a devout Satanist? Or would you still still hold back?

You see the beauty of a concealed God is that we are not forced to bow down to something just because might is right. There is courage and dignity into believing that despite high forces are cruel and unjust we humans can seek love and justice in this cruel and chaotic universe.

But what is unjust and cruel - you may have a hard time seeing that but for many the Christian interpretation of Christ looks almost as repugnant as your interpretation of Satan. Some find it repugnant that human flesh must be worshiped, others find it repugnant that we must sing love songs to some hippy looking dude, others find it repugnant that they will have to wear their crippled bodies again in afterlife, others find it repugnant that the option to correct our sins is stolen by a creator. There are lots of things to object in but whether or not a person finds these things objectable depends on his spiritual growth. There are religions for various levels of spiritual development in this world and Christians while not the lowest level are surely not the highest level either.

[ScrapperTL]

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior,
Although I always thought KROM was a total bad ass Fictional Deity.

[Mr. D]

God (or whatever you call it/him/her) is my spiritual cheerleader, and I'm in charge of figuring out where I want to go and how to get there.

[Uzisuicide]

(09-18-2016 10:03 PM)Valentine Wrote:  

One thing I know is certainly true is the Uncaused Cause i.e. the Kalām cosmological argument:

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

Agreed, and the effect cannot be greater than the cause. But you have to have an uncaused first cause otherwise there would be infinite regression. The Aristotelian concept of the unmoved mover covers that.

Myself, I am a right wing, Bible believing, fundamentalist. I believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, Son of God and Redeemer. Furthermore I believe in the death, resurrection and eventual second coming of Jesus.

Uzi