[scorpion]

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

Scorpion - I ask you: suppose I could prove in your mind beyond all doubt that Satan is the true lord of the universe and child sacrifice and opening your asshole to a high priest of satan is the only means of salvation thus validating the Satanist religion. If you believed that to be true, would you suddenly become a devout Satanist? Or would you still still hold back?

This reminds me of the old quip about how if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle. In other words, by definition Satan cannot be God. I understand what you're getting at, but conceptually it doesn't really work. It's not the same thing as asking an atheist (who has no belief in any God, presumably for logical reasons) whether he would believe in God based on evidence (the lack of which he claims is the reason he does not believe).

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

You see the beauty of a concealed God is that we are not forced to bow down to something just because might is right. There is courage and dignity into believing that despite high forces are cruel and unjust we humans can seek love and justice in this cruel and chaotic universe.

Interesting and revealing language I bolded there. Is this not indicative, as I noted, of pride and rebellion? You reject the concept of an authoritative God, choosing instead to rely on your own power, deeming this the honorable, courageous path.

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

But what is unjust and cruel - you may have a hard time seeing that but for many the Christian interpretation of Christ looks almost as repugnant as your interpretation of Satan. Some find it repugnant that human flesh must be worshiped, others find it repugnant that we must sing love songs to some hippy looking dude, others find it repugnant that they will have to wear their crippled bodies again in afterlife, others find it repugnant that the option to correct our sins is stolen by a creator.

Now it could not be more clear. This is particularly sharp language. You are literally repulsed by the idea that you must humble yourself and seek God on his terms rather than your own. The idea that God - as sovereign creator - holds ultimate authority is something you find repugnant. That's fair enough - it's your life and your choice. But these are not logical arguments. They are entirely emotional and housed in a spirit of pride and rebellion.

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

There are lots of things to object in but whether or not a person finds these things objectable depends on his spiritual growth. There are religions for various levels of spiritual development in this world and Christians while not the lowest level are surely not the highest level either.

Of everything you've said, this is by far the most objectionable. No one who has seriously engaged in a study of world religions and comparative theology could make such a claim. There is nothing in Eastern religion, mysticism, New Age spirituality, etc... approaching the depth and breadth of Christian theology. I've studied all of those systems in depth. They all share a common element - they were very obviously invented by man. Why is that obvious? Because they all flatter us. They tell us - like you want to hear - that the power ultimately lies within us. They tell us that if we can just become good enough (measured by various metrics depending on the system/religion) then we can transcend this reality through our own power. This is the common element of all false religion.

Only Christianity reveals to us the uncomfortable truth - that we are completely powerless and have no ability to redeem ourselves. This is not the sort of teaching that man invents to flatter himself. Nor is it a system designed for political and economic domination (Islam). It is, rather, a strange and mysterious idea, one that is at once both alien and familiar. God is our father, and we are his children. And just as children are completely helpless without their parents, so we are without God. This is the fundamental truth that atheists reject. Their pride does not allow them to cede control and authority to God.

This is the main thing atheists must understand. If there is a God (not necessarily even the Christian God, for the sake of argument) then you have absolutely no authority over him. You are not in a position to dictate to the creator what is fair, what is just, what is good, what is logical. It seems that many atheists don't understand the idea of God, their view being entirely too small and limited. They seem to view God as micromanaging boss or an overbearing parent (note always the preoccupation with rebellion against authority figures). But God is much bigger than this. It is only the atheist's failure to logically apprehend the power of a sovereign, omnipotent creator that allows them to so casually denigrate him. God is not a mean guy on a cloud who wants to tell you what to do. He is, rather, the force beyond time and space that underlies the entire physical universe. God is the only thing that has existence in and of itself. And this force - awesome in the literal definition of the word - is not impersonal, but rather has an identity. And he wants to share it with us.

This is very important for people to think about deeply. Before you reject the idea of God you need to be very sure you've exhaustively explored the concept of God. It's not something you want to gloss over. There is everything at stake, after all. Any man who humbles himself and earnestly seeks to follow the truth wherever it leads will not be disappointed.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

(09-17-2016 11:55 AM)Frost Wrote:  

What do you believe regarding Gods, creation, eschatology, and the supernatural? More importantly, why do you believe it? What arguments or experiences were most influential and persuasive?

For me, religion is about creating a standard of behaviour I can compare myself to you, for the sake of self-improvement. I by no means live up to the standard, but I like having it there.

As a comparison: Genetically, I just don't build a lot of muscle. But I still like looking at old pictures of Arnold Schwarzenegger just to see what weight lifting can do to man's body. I'm never going to get up to that standard (at least not without steroids, which I'd rather not take) but I like thinking that I can work towards something like Arnold's body, even if it's only 10% of that.

So I like having a religious standard, even if I admit that it's impossible for me to reach, but if I can get even a percentage of the way there, I think I'll be a better person.

Religion is for me also about having a community to belong to that supports you in terms of noble goals in life, especially for the family I hope to start one day.

Furthermore, Religion has psychological and therefore health benefits. Religion should help you cope with bad times and appreciate the good times. I've seen people underappreciate the good things when they have them, and then crumble when the bad things hit. I don't want to be one of those.

[gameking7]

Catholic, this is what we say at Mass. This is our belief

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Mage]

(09-19-2016 07:21 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

In other words, by definition Satan cannot be God.

You just escaped answering the question by insisting on Christian definition of Satan that is not what I was speaking about. What i asked you was what if I proved to you that God was evil? Would you worship him just because he is all powerful?

(09-19-2016 07:21 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

You see the beauty of a concealed God is that we are not forced to bow down to something just because might is right. There is courage and dignity into believing that despite high forces are cruel and unjust we humans can seek love and justice in this cruel and chaotic universe.

Interesting and revealing language I bolded there. Is this not indicative, as I noted, of pride and rebellion? You reject the concept of an authoritative God, choosing instead to rely on your own power, deeming this the honorable, courageous path.

1)You sound like a stereotypical inquisitor here (don't lecture me now how inquisition was not at all like that it's not the point here) - you grasp at my choice of words and cry - see see he's a heretic!
2)I could invert everything you say and accuse you of being a natural slave who wants to get rid of all the responsibility for his actions and put it on a God to deal with your sins. Christians are like this - never analyzing their actions just doing what appears righteous superficially and letting God sort it out afterwards. Therefore Christians are to blame on this virtue signaling liberal culture we have now - this is a natural next step to evolve from Christianity

(09-19-2016 07:21 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

But what is unjust and cruel - you may have a hard time seeing that but for many the Christian interpretation of Christ looks almost as repugnant as your interpretation of Satan. Some find it repugnant that human flesh must be worshiped, others find it repugnant that we must sing love songs to some hippy looking dude, others find it repugnant that they will have to wear their crippled bodies again in afterlife, others find it repugnant that the option to correct our sins is stolen by a creator.

Now it could not be more clear. This is particularly sharp language. You are literally repulsed by the idea that you must humble yourself and seek God on his terms rather than your own. The idea that God - as sovereign creator - holds ultimate authority is something you find repugnant. That's fair enough - it's your life and your choice. But these are not logical arguments. They are entirely emotional and housed in a spirit of pride and rebellion.

God holding authority over his created universe has nothing to do with Christ. I do believe in an incorporeal God who has created the material universe while not being himself a part of this universe a.k.a. God the Father. And this is exactly why I find the idea of praying to another dude with flesh, singing love songs to him and eating his flesh (I wonder what body parts are included in this flesh) abhorrent, cuckish and totaly gay.

Given the current availability of information and knowledge of history it's absolutely clear to any impartial observer that Christians have taken the idea of a single immaterial God form a particular nation they hate now and fused it with personality cult of one of the greatest prophets of this immaterial God despite himself saying that "Father is greater then I"

(09-19-2016 07:21 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

There are lots of things to object in but whether or not a person finds these things objectable depends on his spiritual growth. There are religions for various levels of spiritual development in this world and Christians while not the lowest level are surely not the highest level either.

Of everything you've said, this is by far the most objectionable. No one who has seriously engaged in a study of world religions and comparative theology could make such a claim. There is nothing in Eastern religion, mysticism, New Age spirituality, etc... approaching the depth and breadth of Christian theology. I've studied all of those systems in depth. They all share a common element - they were very obviously invented by man. Why is that obvious? Because they all flatter us. They tell us - like you want to hear - that the power ultimately lies within us. They tell us that if we can just become good enough (measured by various metrics depending on the system/religion) then we can transcend this reality through our own power. This is the common element of all false religion.

Only Christianity reveals to us the uncomfortable truth - that we are completely powerless and have no ability to redeem ourselves. This is not the sort of teaching that man invents to flatter himself. Nor is it a system designed for political and economic domination (Islam). It is, rather, a strange and mysterious idea, one that is at once both alien and familiar. God is our father, and we are his children. And just as children are completely helpless without their parents, so we are without God. This is the fundamental truth that atheists reject. Their pride does not allow them to cede control and authority to God.

By your metrics Islam is superior to Christianity because it paints a man even more miserable compared to God.

All the religions you say you have studied you have obviously studied exclusively or near exclusively trough Christian prism likely from Christian books that start with: "How to answer to...<insert name of other faith here>"

Christianity is also obviously invented by a man - the names of those particular men are well known, Paul, Constantine and then the church fathers like Tertullian, Origen and others.

Power absolutely lies within us - this is empirical evidence. God needs humans to do miracles. But we also need to recognize God's authority. These syntax of these seemingly opposite attitudes moves a man and God closer. This is a complex topic that you are not ready to perceive.

The idea that we are powerless is not uncomfortable - it's very comfortable to women, poor, cucks and slaves. This is the main follower base of Christianity.

(09-19-2016 07:21 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

This is the main thing atheists must understand. If there is a God (not necessarily even the Christian God, for the sake of argument) then you have absolutely no authority over him. You are not in a position to dictate to the creator what is fair, what is just, what is good, what is logical. It seems that many atheists don't understand the idea of God, their view being entirely too small and limited. They seem to view God as micromanaging boss or an overbearing parent (note always the preoccupation with rebellion against authority figures). But God is much bigger than this. It is only the atheist's failure to logically apprehend the power of a sovereign, omnipotent creator that allows them to so casually denigrate him. God is not a mean guy on a cloud who wants to tell you what to do. He is, rather, the force beyond time and space that underlies the entire physical universe. God is the only thing that has existence in and of itself. And this force - awesome in the literal definition of the word - is not impersonal, but rather has an identity. And he wants to share it with us.

This is very important for people to think about deeply. Before you reject the idea of God you need to be very sure you've exhaustively explored the concept of God. It's not something you want to gloss over. There is everything at stake, after all. Any man who humbles himself and earnestly seeks to follow the truth wherever it leads will not be disappointed.

This is another reason why I am sure Christianity is wrong. Whenever Christians are attacked they suppose the attacker is an atheist and start defending the concept of God the Father. But it is often, as in this case , the concept of the son that is attacked and they just mix it all together and go completely off topic.

Scorpion you have taken a quick look to eastern mysticism but you haven't taken a look at origins of Christianity and what predated it, how it was created. I agree with you on most points about God the Father, but it is the son that you drag with him that makes your religion wrong.

[Ivanis]

I used to be atheist until I saw how leftist ideology was basically infused with it. So I don't consider myself theist nor atheist, I just live my life how I want to, I don't give into dogma, and if there is a god, hopefully he can respect that.


I personally find things such as the afterlife just a comfort for people who won't live there lives to the fullest(sans RVF members of course, we are already the 1% who do). Also I don't think that it helps while mourning death, maybe you lose a parent and think that if you kill yourself you'll see her? A family member of mine contemplated that, its terrible. I don't have any problems with religion(except Islam), I just choose not to practice one.

[ElFlaco]

Although I don't believe in god or religion, I respect religious belief and admire it to a certain point. Militant atheists can rot in hell.

[Kid Twist]

(09-20-2016 02:18 AM)gameking7 Wrote:  

Catholic, this is what we say at Mass. This is our belief

The Nicene Creed

What you posted is not the nicene creed. And no, I'm not an adversary, I am a brother just making a [slight] important correction.

(In Rome it's not written that way either)

ps - still, I'm pleased you endorse its idea (-:

[Lagavulin]

I'm an atheist but I respect the power of faith.

[philosophical_recovery]

None. I was raised with the most minimal religious background (as in my dad mentioned it once or twice), never going to church. I was aware of it.

I was a raging, annoying, mostly gamma atheist for a few years time in my late teens/early 20s.

Then, at a certain point I focused on other things.

Since then, I've read the New Testament and a few other books on theology. I don't believe in a supernatural force. But, I'd rather hang out with Christians the rest of my life than a bunch of rabid gamma atheistcult members like I was back in the day. I just can't be bothered with it, as religion bores me to death and I'd rather spend time on something else.

[scorpion]

(09-20-2016 02:26 AM)Mage Wrote:  

You just escaped answering the question by insisting on Christian definition of Satan that is not what I was speaking about. What i asked you was what if I proved to you that God was evil? Would you worship him just because he is all powerful?

It's not a dodge. What you're saying is literally a contradiction in terms. A perfect being cannot be evil, by definition. You cannot prove that God is evil any more than you can prove 1 + 1 = 3. If God was evil he would not be God.

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

1)You sound like a stereotypical inquisitor here (don't lecture me now how inquisition was not at all like that it's not the point here) - you grasp at my choice of words and cry - see see he's a heretic!
2)I could invert everything you say and accuse you of being a natural slave who wants to get rid of all the responsibility for his actions and put it on a God to deal with your sins. Christians are like this - never analyzing their actions just doing what appears righteous superficially and letting God sort it out afterwards. Therefore Christians are to blame on this virtue signaling liberal culture we have now - this is a natural next step to evolve from Christianity

I never called you a heretic - I simply pointed out the fact that the language you chose to use was revealing (it is in this post, as well). Your word choices are evocative and emotionally charged - inquisition, heretic, slave. It is obvious your major objections to Christianity are emotionally based (particularly your distaste with the "slave" aspect - which is why, as I said accurately in my last post, the issue is one of pride, not reason).

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

God holding authority over his created universe has nothing to do with Christ. I do believe in an incorporeal God who has created the material universe while not being himself a part of this universe a.k.a. God the Father. And this is exactly why I find the idea of praying to another dude with flesh, singing love songs to him and eating his flesh (I wonder what body parts are included in this flesh) abhorrent, cuckish and totaly gay.

You seem to have an incomplete (to put in charitably) understanding of Jesus Christ. He was not "some hippy guy" who was interested in getting people to eat his flesh. He was (and is) the physical incarnation of God into the created universe. Essentially, he is the avatar of God the Father. He is the bridge between man and God, because he is at once both man and God. The fact that you actually wrote that you find this "cuckish and gay" speaks to a staggering ignorance or immaturity on your part. It's literally the sort of critique you'd expect to hear from a 12 year old problem child who wanted to get himself kicked out of Sunday school. You're an intelligent guy and that sort of thing is way below your intellectual level, so I can't really understand why you bothered you include it. You just seem to be viscerally anti-Christ and unable to contain your animosity.

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

Given the current availability of information and knowledge of history it's absolutely clear to any impartial observer that Christians have taken the idea of a single immaterial God form a particular nation they hate now and fused it with personality cult of one of the greatest prophets of this immaterial God despite himself saying that "Father is greater then I"

Again, you have a poor understanding of Jesus Christ. He was not just a prophet, and your attempt to cherry pick Bible verses to support your completely ignorant position is embarrassing.

https://carm.org/christianity/christian-...greater-he

https://carm.org/bible-verses-show-jesus-divine

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

By your metrics Islam is superior to Christianity because it paints a man even more miserable compared to God.

All the religions you say you have studied you have obviously studied exclusively or near exclusively trough Christian prism likely from Christian books that start with: "How to answer to...<insert name of other faith here>"

Christianity is also obviously invented by a man - the names of those particular men are well known, Paul, Constantine and then the church fathers like Tertullian, Origen and others.

The vast majority of my study and research into Eastern religions, spirituality, mysticism, etc... came before I was a Christian. I thought I was getting closer to the truth. I thought there was some great, hidden arcane knowledge and wisdom to be found. I thought that if I read and meditated on these things for long enough I would unlock that secret knowledge. I thought that the power to transcend this reality was within us.

But I was wrong. These are all delusions borne out of the human ego. Our pride, always, is our undoing. It is my sincere hope that you realize this truth someday soon.

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

Power absolutely lies within us - this is empirical evidence. God needs humans to do miracles. But we also need to recognize God's authority. These syntax of these seemingly opposite attitudes moves a man and God closer. This is a complex topic that you are not ready to perceive.

I can't be the only one face palming right now. God needs humans to do miracles? Do you even understand the concept of an omnipotent God that you claim to believe in? You know, the God that created the entire physical universe out of nothing? Literally the greatest miracle we could possibly conceive. And he somehow needs humans to assist him? You are entirely incoherent. The bolded part just illustrates more and more hubris. A lack of intellectual humility is fatal to the truth seeker. Pride, always pride.

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

The idea that we are powerless is not uncomfortable - it's very comfortable to women, poor, cucks and slaves. This is the main follower base of Christianity.

Has someone been reading Nietzsche? Again, this is embarrassing. You are literally regurgitating the criticisms I had of Christianity when I was fourteen. You don't even understand Christianity enough to make an intelligent critique. You're just lashing out (LOL CHRISTIAN ARE CUCK LOL).

(09-19-2016 12:21 PM)Mage Wrote:  

This is another reason why I am sure Christianity is wrong. Whenever Christians are attacked they suppose the attacker is an atheist and start defending the concept of God the Father. But it is often, as in this case , the concept of the son that is attacked and they just mix it all together and go completely off topic.

Scorpion you have taken a quick look to eastern mysticism but you haven't taken a look at origins of Christianity and what predated it, how it was created. I agree with you on most points about God the Father, but it is the son that you drag with him that makes your religion wrong.

You are not sure of anything. You are incredibly ignorant of Christianity and yet utterly strident in your animosity towards it. You've deluded yourself into thinking this opposition is based on reason and logic, but it's clear for all to see that your pride is simply blinding you, resulting in a deep-seated and otherwise inexplicable hatred of Jesus Christ.

Let go of the pride and the anger. They are holding you back from the truth you seek.

[Alpharius]

Atheist. 100%.

When the last brick from the last church falls upon the head of the last priest, humanity will be free.

[Mage]

(09-20-2016 09:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

A perfect being cannot be evil, by definition. You cannot prove that God is evil any more than you can prove 1 + 1 = 3. If God was evil he would not be God.

Did I say God has to be perfect? We did not agree on this condition. The definition of perfect is completely arbitrary. Please stop dodging and tell me what would you do if I proved to you without a doubt the omnipotent creator of universe were evil, for instance has created us just to watch us suffer and all the rewards for doing good were a lie and only cruelty and betrayal is rewarded? Would you still choose to do good or would you choose to side with the evil might?

(09-20-2016 09:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I never called you a heretic - I simply pointed out the fact that the language you chose to use was revealing (it is in this post, as well). Your word choices are evocative and emotionally charged - inquisition, heretic, slave. It is obvious your major objections to Christianity are emotionally based (particularly your distaste with the "slave" aspect - which is why, as I said accurately in my last post, the issue is one of pride, not reason).

I can riposte with the same: Your choice of words - (pride, rebellion) are obviously evocative and emotionally charged. When I speak of slaves I speak of the philosophical concept of natural slaves and seeing emotions in this concept is only how you perceive this concept. When I refereed to inquisition and heretics I pointed out that it is you who uses emotion to discard the arguments of my reply and instead just focus on some words in this reply to whom you could assign some emotional connections, like an inquisitor would do in front of a mob with pitchforks saying "See - he said the forbidden (emotionally charged, triggering )words - he is a heretic" This is how you debate by asigning to my words some emotional undertones.

(09-20-2016 09:12 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

He was (and is) the physical incarnation of God into the created universe. Essentially, he is the avatar of God the Father. He is the bridge between man and God, because he is at once both man and God. The fact that you actually wrote that you find this "cuckish and gay" speaks to a staggering ignorance or immaturity on your part. It's literally the sort of critique you'd expect to hear from a 12 year old problem child who wanted to get himself kicked out of Sunday school. You're an intelligent guy and that sort of thing is way below your intellectual level, so I can't really understand why you bothered you include it. You just seem to be viscerally anti-Christ and unable to contain your animosity.

According to Christianity God the Father and God the son are separate entities in trinity, they are not avatars of each other, I don't know what type of Christian are you but you seem to interpret the trinity as suits your point, not cool man. It is typical of Christians, Trinity is such a fucked up concept that Christians struggle all the time to drag it along.

Now you are trying to shame me in saying that not accepting cuckish philosophies is immature. You want me to "man up". I have seen a lot of such manipulation when I was a Christian. Thanks, but no thanks, since taking the red pill I do not allow myself to be manipulated this way anymore. You can call me childish as do single mothers who would like men to be serious abandon their hobbies and take care of their bastard spawns and preachers wo would like men to invest in their churches. There is wisdom in this childishness and there is folly and decadence in this adulthood you try to promote.

The rest of your arguments are basically emotional accusations of some imagined pride and rebellion. You see these things as 1000% evil. Truth is we were not red pill men if we were not all here somewhat rebellious against status quo and systems that try to exploit us. Christianity is another system like that. Christianity wants us to worship another man and install a spirit of idolatry and cuckoldry within us by doing so. It has been successful into turning the white Christian nations into cucks who accept alien immigration without resistance. Pride and rebellion is not good or bad, like guns are not good are bad. They are tools that have to be used when it is right and have to be put away when their use is not right.

I recognize a transcendent God who doesn't change rules in midway of it's creations history and who is not part of this material world. I respect religious people who also seek this God. I have no pride and rebellion in front of this God, because he doesn't occupy the space and time as I do and he is my strength and not my concurrent. I pity those who seek to taint this pure and perfect God with attempts to bind it to some single historical or mythological figure. I don't hate such people - I understand that this is the stage of development these humans are into. They must imagine God as a man to build any emotional connection, because emotions are important for them, they need good human emotions to connect with God. Emotions that mimic eartly love humans feel for each other. I don't object much when women do it - it is their earthly nature. But for a man to do that is pretty cuckish and do pity men who linger in this stage of spiritual development.

[Filbert]

In brief:
God was one and then He created this universe, including the earth.
God is both the Creator and the creation.
The purpose of life is to realize God, which is done thru prayer and meditation.
And it is a realized master (or guru) who can teach one how to meditate.

[Kid Twist]

(09-20-2016 09:14 PM)Alpharius Wrote:  

Atheist. 100%.

When the last brick from the last church falls upon the head of the last priest, humanity will be free.

Like in Soviet Russia, right?

[debeguiled]

(09-20-2016 11:09 PM)Mage Wrote:  

. I have seen a lot of such manipulation when I was a Christian. Thanks, but no thanks, since taking the red pill I do not allow myself to be manipulated this way anymore. You can call me childish as do single mothers who would like men to be serious abandon their hobbies and take care of their bastard spawns and preachers wo would like men to invest in their churches.

With this phrase you are revealing the crux of your position.

You had bad experiences with Christian communities in the past, and are treating Scorpion as a stand in for these past abuses.

You have seen people who claimed to be Christian abuse their positions.

This is personal for you.

You are mad at God.

How can you rationally debate faith while bringing baggage like this to the table?

Scorpion is being reasonable with you, if a bit chiding. I would recommend cooling down and coming back later with your criticisms of faith delivered in a more measured way. It seems like you literally cannot take in what is being communicated to you at the moment.

Or, be honest about your experiences, and share with us the bullshit you have experienced at the hands of Christians. There is always room for honest posts like that as well, and many will be able to commiserate.

[Iso]

Christianity is suspect based on the stories of the Bible. The Exodus is a great example of that. Looking at the story logically, you can conclude that it didn't happen.

This is what Egypt lost during the exodus:
-2 Million Jewish slaves
-All first born children
-Livestock
-Poisoned Nile River
-The Pharaoh's army

That would be completely devastating to the Egyptian economy. How did the empire recover after losing that much? Why is there no historical record whatsoever of those events. Why do we not know of the name of the Pharaoh of the Exodus story?

Then those 2 million former Jewish slaves lived in the desert for 40 years. Despite that, there is not 1 bit of archaeological evidence of them living in the desert. They would have left something behind if they stayed that long. Not to mention you can look at it logically to know the story is not true. Where did those 2 Million Jews get the water to drink from in the desert for 40 years? Archaeologists dug through the Middle East for decades in hopes of finding evidence of the Exodus story and they haven't a single bit of evidence for the story. In fact, there is no evidence that Jews were slaves in Egypt in the 1st place.

[Alpharius]

(09-21-2016 08:40 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(09-20-2016 09:14 PM)Alpharius Wrote:  

Atheist. 100%.

When the last brick from the last church falls upon the head of the last priest, humanity will be free.

Like in Soviet Russia, right?

Are you implying that because I don't believe in an unknowable, inscrutable, infallible being/s that I'm a communist? Or that I'm engaged in some bolshevik-like scheme to undermine religious authority, assault those who believe in religion, and confiscate religious artifacts and objects? Or are you hinting that George Carlin was any of the above?

Maybe, just maybe, I honestly don't believe in religion or any type of higher power. The question was asked, "What are your religious beliefs?" I answered.

[AboveAverageJoe]

Ancestor and star worship.
Without both of these none of us would be here.
These are the only things that seem venerable enough for me to "worship".

[britabroad]

Athiest that believes religion does more harm than good in the world.

I rejected my Catholic upbringing aged 10 and have always had a strong moral code.

[AboveAverageJoe]

Red pill and religion go together like players and femenists, that is, they don't.
If someone moved into your home or country would you leave it because you don't want to share it with them? No, of course not. So why do so-called red-pillers reject atheism because some SJW's have chosen it. The bible as far as books go is one ridiculous mess. First off, I am of sound mind and body, so I don't believe in angels, demons, gods or godesses, acts of magic or miracles, reincarnation, time travel, astral beings, etc. All stuff you must believe if you believe the bible is the word of God.
I got kicked out of Sunday school as an 8 year old for asking too many logical questions and flustering the teacher. Never looked back.

[LordMayorMuffSniff]

Cancerous host but decent summation of Theodicy (Existence of evil does not disprove Gods existence)

In Summation
- Free will defense is basically that "God maximized goodness in the world by creating free beings, being free means we have the choice to do evil things.
- when addressing moral evil,this preserves God as being all knowing, all powerful and all good.
- This argument does not address "natural evil", stuff we can't be responsible for, such as tectonic plate movements, tsunamis, epidemics etc.
- The common response to this argument is that in order to know "good" we have to also know "evil" in the same way in order to know pleasure we have to understand pain.

My contribution: It is our perception of 'evil' that is wrong. What is suffering? At a base, biological level, humans require only food, water and shelter to survive. Without these necessities, man soon perishes, his physical suffering is relieved. Is that not a merciful God? A good God? There is no 'long term suffering' that is not enabled and perpetuated by MAN. Diseases only create long term suffering due to MAN'S intervention, MAN'S efforts to prolong life beyond the natural balance of nature. Even the most drawn out of deaths from untreated diseases such as lung cancer are just a blip in the lifetime of a human.

This of course is taking for granted one of the fundamental tenants of Christianity, FREE WILL.

(All of this is of course assuming that "Christianity is right, all other faiths are wrong". Christianity is the only faith that requires that God be all powerful, all good and all knowing, all other religions, even old testament faiths seem to acknowledge that God is omnipotent but flawed or there are several Gods that represent different faces of humanity. Correct me if I'm wrong here.)

[Mage]

[quote] (09-21-2016 12:44 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

[quote='Mage' pid='1398629' dateline='1474430963']

You are mad at God.[/quote]

I am sick and tired of you Christians claiming I am mad on God when I clearly said that I do absolutely believe in God, just merely not your version of God fused with Jesus Christ.

Then you go on saying that I must have suffered from some stupid and bad Christians implying that not all Christians are like that. NACALT.

Yet you are the same - you just proclaim I am mad at God simply because I don't believe in your version of God, this is such a common and stupid fallacy Christians make all the time. You absolutely don't care that maybe I praise God seven times a day, much more often then you. God has worked real miracles in my life. But you cant process that - for you God equals Jesus, you can't even comprehend how this is not synonymous for other people.

You and scorpion both argue alike - if someone disagrees with you - you conclude that this person must have some personal issues like anger, hurt, rebellion - basically this is the Christian passive-aggressive way to make ad hominem attacks when logic fails. This is your way to rationalize and calm down your own suspicions - to draw a caricature of your debate opponent in your mind.

Your arguments are the same of those of feminists saying that all manosphere guys are basement dwelling virgin losers who are angry at women.

Feminists say I am angry because I refuse to put women at pedastal. Christians say I am angry because I refuse to put Jesus at pedastal. You are all the same to me.

Since I rejected Christ my relationship with God has flourished and my life has become much better both materialistically and spiritually.

I urge you to stop identifying God with Christ. You will notice your spiritual life and closeness with God will increase significantly once you get rid of this idol who holds you back.

[AboveAverageJoe]

I like how Christians when provided with the angry, jealous and vengeful God of the Old Testament say that : "The New Testament changed all that"

Huh? Did God turn over a new leaf? Did he get on TLOZ's one year non-drinking bandwagon and now isn't such a giant dick?
I will never understand that arguement. I thought the mighty Christian God was eternal.
That means forever.

[Mage]

(09-22-2016 01:09 PM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:  

I like how Christians when provided with the angry, jealous and vengeful God of the Old Testament say that : "The New Testament changed all that"

Huh? Did God turn over a new leaf? Did he get on TLOZ's one year non-drinking bandwagon and now isn't such a giant dick?
I will never understand that arguement. I thought the mighty Christian God was eternal.
That means forever.

This is a good joke on Christians but it is also a joke on atheists.

You see atheists refuse to believe in Old testament God - because he is not "good" but the thing is that to determine what is "good" these atheists basicly look trough Christian prism.

2000 years ago no one would say that smiting your enemies and taking vengeance on them including killing all their women and children is bad. This was considered normal and smart, because if you don't finish off your enemy he will return with a vengeance.

The Old Testament God is a prudent no bullshit type of God - a God who doesn't have to appear moral because HE IS the morailty.

Then came the Christians who over two millennia, with each century increasingly feminized and castrated their perception of God into the long haired hyppie type jesus pacifist image we have today.

And then came the atheists who looked at what was two millenia ago and what is now and rejected it all because it doesn't match. They rejected the Old Testament God because it doesn't match their idea of a "loving" and "forgiving" God that is an idea totally created by Christians.

In this way these atheists are all post-Christians. They are more Christian then they think they are. And Christians are more to blame for this atheism then Christians think they are.

Meanwhile the true nature of God remains unchanged. The true God is like a force of nature - because he is the Creator of all Nature - vengeful to those who ignore it's laws, just in that the vengeance is certain, loving in that justice is applied to all no matter on the amount of praying - knowing and keeping the law of nature - both material and spiritual is all that matters - that is the True God the Jealous God. This is the God of Patriarchy. This is the God that doesn't contradict science. This is the God that seems evil to the wicked and good to the righteous in body mind and spirit. This is God who's beauty is revealed in math and fasting, physics and meditation, chemistry and sexual modesty. Verily few are those who can see both sides of the coin and can comprehend the laws of nature while remembering that they themselves are part of the Nature. Who can simultaneously look at laws of nature from above as God does while also look at themselves from side to their own integrated role in the workings of nature? But a very few are men like that that can be called agents of God.

[Mage]

(09-22-2016 11:55 AM)LordMayorMuffSniff Wrote:  

Christianity is the only faith that requires that God be all powerful, all good and all knowing, all other religions, even old testament faiths seem to acknowledge that God is omnipotent but flawed or there are several Gods that represent different faces of humanity. Correct me if I'm wrong here.)

Christians drive themselves in corner with this "total omnipotency" of God.

If God were omnipotent he wouldn't have to sacrifice his son to defeat death (his own creation) - he would just will it - and death would be defeated.

The Christians have invented the rule - "The wages of sin is death" and made this rule so powerful that even the omnipotent God must use some tricky and dramatic schemes and hacks to break this rule - like separating into three entities, camouflaging one of those entities as a bare mortal and then spectacularly offing it at cross, like death were some otherwise undefeatable monster that could be killed only by feeding it poison. Not to mention that it all hanged on the fiat of a certain 14 year old Jewish girl who would condemn all creation if she had but said no - talk about literally holding the God by his balls.

This reveals that no matter how omnipotent you claim God to be there are certainly some inner rules that even God must abide by. God may be omnipotent compared by humans in a sense that he can delete or save our lives in every moment he pleases, but it is certain that he is not omnipotent in the full logical meaning of this word - meaning that there are some rules that God must observe to function and maintain consistency. The only problem with this fact is that not all religions are honest about it. While more polytheist religions are fine with limitations on their gods which is natural due to gods having to make space for other Gods, the monotheist religions are generally sneaky and try to claim that God is totally omnipotent, but even they cannot create a theology where God is truly omnipotent.

The only exception would be Kaballah which would honestly recognize that God is omnipotent compared to Creation only, but there are certainly rules for God "in his realm", it's just that we don't know anything about God's realm the Ein Sof and so we know nothing about what God's limitations must be, but God must certainly have some, otherwise God would be chaotic, could change his mind any moment and universe would be unstable. Then again Kaballah is not really a religion it's a spiritual science.

Christianity and Islam on the other hand try to claim that God is totally omnipotent, but by doing so they actually create theologies which depict that God is even limited in this material realm we live in. Christian God is severely limited by necessity of Jesus and Allah is Severly limited by necessity of a perfect Quran.