[Subtext]

(12-15-2018 11:29 PM)Trumpian Wrote:  

I still wanna see one video of these Shaolin monk types beating a boxer, Thai boxer, MMA fighter, etc.

I've scoured YouTube and can't find one. If they can punch "2-3 times harder" it should be an easy task.

There's a 40 yr old MMA guy in China (and a pretty mediocre one at that) who's been going around the country beating the shit out of these "masters". I'd really like to see a legit one come out of hiding and show off some of the techniques.

No, you definitely haven't, because I searched "monk vs. boxer" and a bunch came up.

Here's just one:

[Trumpian]

(12-29-2018 01:37 PM)Subtext Wrote:  

(12-15-2018 11:29 PM)Trumpian Wrote:  

I still wanna see one video of these Shaolin monk types beating a boxer, Thai boxer, MMA fighter, etc.

I've scoured YouTube and can't find one. If they can punch "2-3 times harder" it should be an easy task.

There's a 40 yr old MMA guy in China (and a pretty mediocre one at that) who's been going around the country beating the shit out of these "masters". I'd really like to see a legit one come out of hiding and show off some of the techniques.

No, you definitely haven't, because I searched "monk vs. boxer" and a bunch came up.

Here's just one:

That's Yi Long, he's not nor has he ever been a shaolin monk lol. That's just his stage name/shtick. He's a sanshou kickboxer.

Sanshou is a hodgepodge of styles the chinese military put together for their hand to hand combat training. It's legit.

And still no proof of hitting 2-3x harder. I've seen much worse KOs.

[Subtext]

(12-31-2018 06:29 AM)Trumpian Wrote:  

(12-29-2018 01:37 PM)Subtext Wrote:  

(12-15-2018 11:29 PM)Trumpian Wrote:  

I still wanna see one video of these Shaolin monk types beating a boxer, Thai boxer, MMA fighter, etc.

I've scoured YouTube and can't find one. If they can punch "2-3 times harder" it should be an easy task.

There's a 40 yr old MMA guy in China (and a pretty mediocre one at that) who's been going around the country beating the shit out of these "masters". I'd really like to see a legit one come out of hiding and show off some of the techniques.

No, you definitely haven't, because I searched "monk vs. boxer" and a bunch came up.

Here's just one:

That's Yi Long, he's not nor has he ever been a shaolin monk lol. That's just his stage name/shtick. He's a sanshou kickboxer.

Sanshou is a hodgepodge of styles the chinese military put together for their hand to hand combat training. It's legit.

And still no proof of hitting 2-3x harder. I've seen much worse KOs.

I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that these individuals that you're disparaging are more interested in perfecting themselves than impressing random people on the internet? In any event, nothing you've said really dissuades me from taking OP seriously in his claims.

[Trumpian]

Do I suppose that there's Chinese monks skipping out on $10 million paydays cause they're perfecting their souls?

I don't think anybody believes that.

I'm not interested in dissuading you, and the burden of proof isn't on me. The claim was there's martial arts that can punch 2-3x harder than a boxer, and there's no evidence for that.

[Saweeep]

Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

[Subtext]

(01-07-2019 08:21 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

You don't even have to go to the far East to see accounts of such things. The English had the most effective method of punching the head ever conceived (just read Colonel Monstery's treatise), and it was easily multiples stronger than any modern boxer - bareknuckled, too. But then Jack Boughtonis ruined the sport with his rules, so most of those techniques just faded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

[Saweeep]

(01-07-2019 08:43 PM)Subtext Wrote:  

(01-07-2019 08:21 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

You don't even have to go to the far East to see accounts of such things. The English had the most effective method of punching the head ever conceived (just read Colonel Monstery's treatise), and it was easily multiples stronger than any modern boxer - bareknuckled, too. But then Jack Boughtonis ruined the sport with his rules, so most of those techniques just faded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

I am English and have no idea what you're talking about? Would you care to elaborate?

Bruce Lee is my hero.

The reason being that without him the martial arts boom of the 70s may never have happened in the West and I wouldn't have a business, the legacy of the boom is a small network of Kung Fu schools I own alongside my considerably larger kickboxing business.

All my sifus have spent decades in China cumulatively. Sure they're strong, dangerous guys in streetfight scenarios...but in the ring, they are useless.

I'm no kung fu expert but I don't see much different about their punching to most karate styles...which begs the question if they're so powerful...why did the Japanese dump them for Western boxing in their kickboxing? The answer is clear.

[Trumpian]

^Not only the Japanese but the Thais (and surrounding countries) all incorporated Western boxing into their styles. Because it's superior. There's nobody in the fight world questioning this lol.

Quote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

Who can say? He never fought any world class boxers or kickboxers.

The vids I saw of him punching the heavy bag just look like typical wing chun powerless shoulder punches. A boxer/kickboxer would have walked him down in the ring.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee though..because even he said Western boxing/wrestling was vastly superior to kung fu.

That's why he tried to create a new style. Wing chun didnt work.

[Saweeep]

When I first started training in Thailand, many years ago now when Phuket for instance only had a small handful of gyms not the 200 or whatever of today, the trainers were all older and "pre-western-boxing-punching" trained.

Coming from a lifetime of Western Kickboxing, I was blown away by their kicking and clinching skills. But frankly, their boxing was just shit.

The new generation, the kind of trainers you'd find today pretty much universally were trained with a Western boxing guard and punching and are considerably more rounded and harder to deal with.

[heavy]

(12-29-2018 07:04 AM)ElFuerte Wrote:  

If you want to be able to defend yourself in the street, you need:
1) boxing
2) wrestling to avoid being taken down
Everything else is less effective in street situations, and some things like aikido are downright useless.

Here's a great video by Jocko on real martial arts that actually work

That's a great summary video from no-nonsense Jocko. I've been training just over 2 years in BJJ (first combat anything I've done, I basically played rec basketball and lifted before that), and I'm addicted. I was actually a bit surprised at the order of training he offers...BJJ, boxing, muy thai, etc. I'd be curious what his reason is to start with BJJ (even though I did): How much is because that's what he did, and how much because he thinks it makes logical sense.

Regardless, my opinion would be to do whatever keeps you coming into the gym consistently for at least a year.

For me (and this may be Jocko's reasoning), BJJ stuck because it's so cerebral. I may or may not move on to train some striking (I have a couple times), but for me starting out, I don't think boxing or muy thai would have had the appeal to keep me going 3-4 days a week that first year.

It's weird, because now, (1) it's just a part of my life and schedule, (2) I'm rolling with friends now instead of simply gym people (more social reward), and (3) I'm better now, so I don't get beat up constantly every roll. I'm also entering the sweet spot of being a blue belt, where I have all the fundamentals down fairly well and now learning the tricks and combos to be dangerous on the mat.

I think back to that first year. It was very difficult many times to go into the gym. Far more difficult than to lace up some shoes and run a few miles. More like lacing up some shoes and run a few miles faster than I ran last time, every time (which I attempted in college and burned out fast).

Also, I took a jiu-jitsu vacation and it was the best week and a half of my life. Probably schedule another one this year.

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

(01-08-2019 10:50 AM)heavy Wrote:  

Also, I took a jiu-jitsu vacation and it was the best week and a half of my life. Probably schedule another one this year.

Where did you go, if you don't mind sharing? I'm thinking about doing either Origin Maine or a BJJ Globetrotters camp this year. Also considering a ~10 day trip to Brazil and just winging it down there which would have the advantage of being able to poosay hunt as well, but not sure if I'm skilled enough in BJJ (6 month white belt) or Portuguese (nonexistent beyond a tiny bit of broken Spanish) to make the most of that.

[Trumpian]

I think Jocko recommended BJJ because it was an older guy asking, and its a very soft martial art.

Not many middle aged guys are going to last long in a muay thai or boxing gym. Getting leg kicked and punched in the face sucks.

[DarkTriad]

(12-29-2018 07:04 AM)ElFuerte Wrote:  

If you want to be able to defend yourself in the street, you need:
1) boxing
2) wrestling to avoid being taken down
Everything else is less effective in street situations, and some things like aikido are downright useless.

Here's a great video by Jocko on real martial arts that actually work

Great video. I think it's worth noting that not just boxing but all 3 of the first hand to hand systems he named for best self defense were sport based. The system explicitly designed for self defense came in fourth. This has been consistent with my experience.

I've done many years self defense based systems, and found that the overall effectiveness of the sport based systems for self defense were just better. There are a lot of theories to account for this (one of my favorites is that the brutal Darwin of regular competition forces faster, more efficient development than systems based more on theory) but the most important thing is to adapt your theories to your facts than trying to a adapt the facts to your theories.

Quote:

some things like aikido are downright useless.

Not entirely accurate...I could use some of Aikido off angle movement stuff effectively....AFTER I had learned how to do the same kinds of off angle movement using the radically more efficient boxing training methodology.

This was a major trend in my training, the "live" arts tended to make my "pure" self defense techniques dramatically more effective with the superior timing/distancing/understanding etc. I got from them.

A lot of the "self defense" was weak sauce/almost worthless until I did the hyper-efficient sport systems and understood the principles behind them and their execution to make them work.

The best greater combat metaphor I can give is the German 88mm Flak gun in World War II. It was designed as an anti-aircraft gun, but turned out to be really good at all kinds of things it wasn't designed for - desert warfare, infantry support, tank busting. etc. It was better at tank busting than any of their purpose built anti-tank weapons.
The smarter generals quickly picked up on this and used it to their advantage. It was so good that by the end of the war they were mounting it on their own tanks because it was just better at tank warfare than anything they previously had on their tanks.

A lot of martial arts guys get hung up on whether something was "designed" for something as opposed to whether it's it's an effective tool for something and it hampers their understanding of combat.

[Wutang]

(01-07-2019 08:49 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

(01-07-2019 08:43 PM)Subtext Wrote:  

(01-07-2019 08:21 PM)Saweeep Wrote:  

Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

You don't even have to go to the far East to see accounts of such things. The English had the most effective method of punching the head ever conceived (just read Colonel Monstery's treatise), and it was easily multiples stronger than any modern boxer - bareknuckled, too. But then Jack Boughtonis ruined the sport with his rules, so most of those techniques just faded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

I am English and have no idea what you're talking about? Would you care to elaborate?

I'm no kung fu expert but I don't see much different about their punching to most karate styles...which begs the question if they're so powerful...why did the Japanese dump them for Western boxing in their kickboxing? The answer is clear.

Same with a lot of Dutch 'Thai boxers'. The arm strikes used in that style is taken from boxing rather than Muay Thai (despite them calling their style "thai boxing") or karate/TKD (despite a lot of those fighters having their root style in TKD and karate).

[Richard Turpin]

I was gobsmacked to see this youtube video on Voxday recently.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/01/dark...mment-form

Here’s the vid. Honestly, just watch it, if you haven’t already seen it;

If you can’t be bothered to watch, it basically shows a Japanese fighter Sakuraba dominating and defeating a whole line of Gracies (at separate events!). How? To summarise, he stays on his feet and soccer kicks his scuttlebutting opponents without mercy before choosing the right time to go to the ground and finish the fight on his own terms.

A few things to talk about here;

Firstly, I know damn well who Sakuraba is and knew all about his victories over the Gracies during this period. At least I knew on a historical, intellectual level. But this is the first time I have actually seen it.

This in no way invalidates BJJ as a useful MA! Let’s just get this straight. I’m posting this ‘cos it’s fascinating and pertinent to the streetfighting discussions on here (being on the ground and getting stomped). To get this out the way, I respect all Martial Arts, though there is a scale of practicality (of which BJJ sits at the top with a few others in my view). I also have a hunch that real streetfights are more about the ‘Artist than the Art’. Also, for survival purposes, I’m inclined nowadays to put ‘running away fast’ at the top of the pile!

There’s nothing new to unpack from this for most people on here; all MA’s have their weakness. That’s why MMA is ‘mixed’. A pure BJJ’er like the early ‘Pride’ days couldn’t win nowadays on the strength of one discipline.

I haven’t done much BJJ myself (only Judo), but cross-trained with a lot of BJJ’ers. They always impressed me (and always tapped me!) but I have to admit, I am sliding over more and more towards the ‘stay off the ground’ camp when it comes to streetfighting advice. Someone in one of the comments mentioned UK football hooligans back in the days being ‘boot-boys’ who would kick the shit out of anyone who ended up on the ground. Sakuraba would have made a great soccer hooligan!

There’s a lot of hate for the Gracies on those Youtube comments. I’m not certain, but it seems that the only Gracie he didn’t beat was Rickson (who had already retired).

[H1N1]

Sport fighting is not as helpful as is usually put forward when it comes to 'the street'.

Most people don't live in violent or dangerous environments, and most people who do don't come into contact very often, if at all, with violent predators.

If you do, in the course of your life, find yourself coming into contact frequently with dangerous people, a whole different set of skills apply. The toughness and conditioning that sport fighting gives you is more useful than the techniques in my experience.

Unless you are talking about squaring up outside a bar, all Marquess of Queensbury, the chances of finding yourself in a fair fight are very slim. Weapons are also almost completely useless in defensive street situations, because you wont deploy them in time, and most likely you wont even remember you have one on you when you are ambushed. You are not in a warzone, most likely, expecting these kinds of events, and you cannot live in code red, which is where you need to be to be consciously using a weapon having been put on the back foot. Soldiers, with their weapons drawn and expecting trouble, usually still get killed in ambushes. Your chances of drawing your weapon and using it effectively if you are relatively untrained are basically zero, and if you are highly trained, not much higher (if you are put on the defensive).

All of the key things you can do to protect yourself are largely focused on environmental awareness. Combat sports are great for building a bit of toughness and keeping your conditioning high, and demystifying violence a little. But they do very little to help you in real world situations. I boxed to a high level, and have a reasonable grounding in BJJ - both great sports I love. Professionally, I spend a lot of time in violent, dangerous places, and come into contact with a lot of violent dangerous people, both good ones and bad ones. I have had quite a few violent situations in the last 6 months alone, and I have not used boxing or BJJ once. 'Real' or 'Street' confrontations require you to cross a nastiness and aggression threshold that combat sports just don't really train you for. It is an unpalatable reality, but boxing (and certainly BJJ) did not prepare me sufficiently for the situations I now deal with semi regularly. They also do nothing to help you recognise the signs that trouble is coming, or to help you avoid them before it's necessary to go hands on - though even that is not always an option, regardless of whether you do everything right before hand.

[ChicagoFire]

Just did Muay Thai for the first time a couple hours ago. I'll be doing more sessions in conjunction with Systema and FMA. Things have popped up in my life but MT is cool, it's something I want to add to my repertoire.

TK said:
"8) Hard to find traditional Muay Thai in the West. Lots just teach the boxing and basics. Few do the traditional conditioning and spiritual parts. Not always a bad thing, just means you miss certain parts."

Probably was the case. The instructor shouted some presumably Thai words before doing drills and before starting class. The session was like a boxing class almost. We would do strikes, footwork, and conditioning. Don't get me wrong, it was fun and I got some mileage out of it.

TK said:
"You may have to find separate boxing instructor to supplement that aspect of your game."

Totally agree. Some of the people I saw couldn't punch for shit.

I study this stuff to get ready post-Trump. Just like my signature suggests, time to prepare before times really get bad.



_____

Yeah Richard, I'm pretty much on the same boat. BJJ is a beautiful sport, I've done it and it isn't easy. The people that earn their stripes are admirable. With that being said you don't want to be on the ground in a street fight. I have an instructor who told me when you're on the ground you will have to watch your opponent's hands as he can grab a knife or a gun. The other obvious con is there may be other attackers around to curb stomp you.

I remember one of my instructors telling the class of a youtube video where a guy was getting beat while the attacker was mounting him...in hindsight BJJ will not save you in that situation. Best solution would be to verbally deescalate or run away or if it came down to it not go on the ground.

[ChicagoFire]

I started martial arts when I was a kid and didn't care about it and now that I'm older I appreciate it a lot more. So far I have studied boxing, systema, FMA, BJJ, among a couple others so far. Just talking to a world champion teacher a couple days ago most probably already know this but don't be a jerkoff in your classes (not that I speak from experience). If you come in headhunting after getting off your deadend job you'll get kicked out even if you sign a contract.

It's more fun than lifting weights although that doesn't mean don't lift weights. Girls seem to be impressed that I like doing martial arts too. Repped you again TK.

[Parzival]

I'm with Kickboxing since October 2018 and now my trainer asked me if I want to join a beginner tournament. It will be at the 20th of April.
I have no worries about my boxing, with the kicks I stick to low kicks because I can't get the legs high enough. Started to add some runs as well to build up more stamina. Will be so far the first and only official fight to participate.

My main things to improve:
- Stamina
- Faster and stronger low kicks
- Faster reaction to kicks from the opponent / blocks and counter kicks

When some guys at the sparring are good with their legs or have a longer reach then I have to rush in. Need to lose about 2 kg to get into the below 75 kg ( 165 pound ? ) group, my high is 175 cm or 5,9. Since I lift weights since over a decade and had more heavy times, most of it fat I'm fine with this weight. Notice all others that have a similar weight to mine in boxing or kickboxing tend to be taller and less muscular.

My strengths are:
- Strong build body
- Good upper body reaction
- Good to rush in and strike with the fists
- Sense of distance
- Guard to fists

Some advice from you guys? Beside don't do it old man?

[Rocha]

(02-07-2019 01:08 PM)Parzival Wrote:  

I'm with Kickboxing since October 2018 and now my trainer asked me if I want to join a beginner tournament. It will be at the 20th of April.
I have no worries about my boxing, with the kicks I stick to low kicks because I can't get the legs high enough. Started to add some runs as well to build up more stamina. Will be so far the first and only official fight to participate.

My main things to improve:
- Stamina
- Faster and stronger low kicks
- Faster reaction to kicks from the opponent / blocks and counter kicks

When some guys at the sparring are good with their legs or have a longer reach then I have to rush in. Need to lose about 2 kg to get into the below 75 kg ( 165 pound ? ) group, my high is 175 cm or 5,9. Since I lift weights since over a decade and had more heavy times, most of it fat I'm fine with this weight. Notice all others that have a similar weight to mine in boxing or kickboxing tend to be taller and less muscular.

My strengths are:
- Strong build body
- Good upper body reaction
- Good to rush in and strike with the fists
- Sense of distance
- Guard to fists

Some advice from you guys? Beside don't do it old man?

I say go for it. I have been doing it for some years now, but never competed. We are total opposites, only now in my mid 30s I am getting some respectable muscle mass, with much broader shoulders and bigger arms then a few years ago (I have been abusing kettlebell trainings, Aleksander Karelin style). Unusually for a guy of my height (1.72) my legs have a long reach and I can employ a wide range of kicks, I am not so confident in my boxing and also I don't like to get punched in my pretty face
So I tend to keep my partners at bay most of the time, and my sparring normally is not so intense in terms of boxing exchanges, except here and there when we train just boxing...but because of that my boxing is not progressing as it should by now...I hope this year to finally get the balls to make the same step as you are doing.

[Waqqle]

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[ChicagoFire]

^^
LMAO!

I say go and compete Parzival. When you're 65 and looking back at your memories you'll think fondly of competing in a fight. That's what it's all about at the end of the day and not accumulating your "stairway to heaven."

[Iconoclast007]

I have been training BJJ for a few months now and really like the knowlege, fitness and the comraderie it brings.

I would like to learn a striking system and there is a Krav Maga 4 day camp coming to my area this summer. Ive heard krav is something that is meant to learned fairly quick. That said. Will I gain enough from the camp to make it worth it as there is no krav training I can do regularly near my home.

[Buddydowrongright2]

(02-16-2019 08:39 AM)Iconoclast007 Wrote:  

I have been training BJJ for a few months now and really like the knowlege, fitness and the comraderie it brings.

I would like to learn a striking system and there is a Krav Maga 4 day camp coming to my area this summer. Ive heard krav is something that is meant to learned fairly quick. That said. Will I gain enough from the camp to make it worth it as there is no krav training I can do regularly near my home.

You will gain from any training you commit yourself to be it small or large. You'll gain far more at an immersion camp than you would if the same number of hours of mat time were spread across a few weeks or months though.

[Parzival]

I got a list of potential competitors from the tournament:

   
   
   

I have my focus on it, I do my regular runs and train regular. I have to improve my kicks.
When we do controlled sparing, where I can't move as free because the coach limit what we can do, I notice my distance with the kicks is not so good. Also the reaction is not where it should be. Sometimes I just reach with the toes and now power behind when I reach.
Also with boxing itself I often stop the combos when I notice the partner is lost in it. There I have to push myself to finish the combos even when just do it light. Started some reaction training with the kicks, I will keep this up. And high kicks are still not possible due lack of flexibility. So I hope to destroy them with low kicks.


Two men enter, one man leaves...
I will see them driven before me!