[the-dream]

R&B singer John Legend talking about sleeping with his swimwear model wife on the first night they met. (from 22:52)

[456]

^^--- I dig his response to the question "some guys might think, if she has sex the first night with me, she probably does with everyone -- what made this different or special?"

And he said "I guess I'm just arrogant" -- spot on. That's how I feel too! I get a vibe sometimes that she usually does NOT do this and it was ME that has her breaking her rules.

Of course I could be wrong and she could be a great actress -- but the above definitely feels better and is a positive attitude to take. As opposed to some girl saying "ugh, I gotta stop doing this..." and then you do NOT feel special.

[Rhyme or Reason]

^
". As opposed to some girl saying "ugh, I gotta stop doing this..." and then you do NOT feel special."


Who the fuck cares if you feel special?


"I'm just arrogant"

Then he will have no one to blame but himself when he "finds out" his girl is a fucking whore, even though that lesson was taught on that first night.


All the cheerleaders in this thread are playing right into the hands of these types of women. They want you to believe something and you eat it up with a spoon.

When you bang a chick or are dating a chick, she has incentive to both:

1. Believe you're the shit
and
2. Convince you she thinks you're the shit.

It's a retroactive form of ASD.

The original question posited is an interesting one because it seems we've come back to the question asked a lot by the members of the 'sphere, that being, do women have agency or don't they? It's either one or the other and the argument could be made their the dual positions society takes on this question has royally fucked things up.

The responses here saying that their game is just so on point that the chick had no choice but to put out right then and there are tacitly saying that women have no agency. Of course in other threads about how to find a good girl or wife hunting, chastity is of the utmost importance.

The two positions are incompatible. If the ho you bang on the first night is LTR material, because hey your game was too good to deny, then clearly the virgin Muslim unicorn would have to follow the same script.

So then I predict the argument that would follow would be something like "But Pillage!! My muslim unicorn WOULDN'T DO THAT! She has morals n stuff!"

To which I point to my original position...agency or no agency? Can't have it both ways. By that logic you should be able to run tight game on the unicorn and she'd have no choice but to comply, which throws the whole "importance of chastity" thing out the window.

[Comte De St. Germain]

In the words of Patrice O' Neal it's irrelevant if she sleeps with me as soon as possible or not. If anything it's better. All the hoops a chick put you through to get some are avoided so my time is saved.

[Travesty]

(10-25-2016 12:47 PM)456 Wrote:  

And he said "I guess I'm just arrogant" -- spot on. That's how I feel too! I get a vibe sometimes that she usually does NOT do this and it was ME that has her breaking her rules.

Of course I could be wrong and she could be a great actress -- but the above definitely feels better and is a positive attitude to take. As opposed to some girl saying "ugh, I gotta stop doing this..." and then you do NOT feel special.

Mental gymnastics are always easier than the the truth. The simple answer is usually the right one.

I think this is a fantastic strategy for hoes to keep the mojo going and to snowball confidence and game. Different than a complete life investment in one woman though.

[Aurini]

(10-25-2016 01:00 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

"I'm just arrogant"

Then he will have no one to blame but himself when he "finds out" his girl is a fucking whore, even though that lesson was taught on that first night.


All the cheerleaders in this thread are playing right into the hands of these types of women. They want you to believe something and you eat it up with a spoon.

When you bang a chick or are dating a chick, she has incentive to both:

1. Believe you're the shit
and
2. Convince you she thinks you're the shit.

It's a retroactive form of ASD.

The original question posited is an interesting one because it seems we've come back to the question asked a lot by the members of the 'sphere, that being, do women have agency or don't they? It's either one or the other and the argument could be made their the dual positions society takes on this question has royally fucked things up.

The responses here saying that their game is just so on point that the chick had no choice but to put out right then and there are tacitly saying that women have no agency. Of course in other threads about how to find a good girl or wife hunting, chastity is of the utmost importance.

The two positions are incompatible. If the ho you bang on the first night is LTR material, because hey your game was too good to deny, then clearly the virgin Muslim unicorn would have to follow the same script.

So then I predict the argument that would follow would be something like "But Pillage!! My muslim unicorn WOULDN'T DO THAT! She has morals n stuff!"

To which I point to my original position...agency or no agency? Can't have it both ways. By that logic you should be able to run tight game on the unicorn and she'd have no choice but to comply, which throws the whole "importance of chastity" thing out the window.

Wholeheartedly agree. Women are realists pretending to be romantics, remember - they're more than happy to feed our egos about being the Super Alpha who Overcame her Resistance - if it gets them what they want.

A certain amount of this is healthy and natural. Calling us Super Alpha is equivalent to us telling them that they're still beautiful after bearing four children for us (in a way they're more beautiful, but that's male romanticism speaking). The best case scenario with a One Night Stand is that both of you subscribe to the casual, hedonistic culture, and FOLLOWING the ONS she fitness tests you for relationship potential. A relationship following that could work, but the odds are worse than a girl who actually resists and preserves her chastity.

[456]

Agree generally with Red_Pillage and Aurini and Travesty -- it is hard to hold both possibilities in one's head at the same time.

I'm just saying, in the moment, regardless of the long term scenario, it's nice if the girl at least ACTS like she's not constantly doing "this". Dim lights are more romantic than bright truth beams, obviously. Romance is about the moment.

Also agree that men are the true romantics and women the true utilitarians. About the only resonant truism from Rollo that doesn't descend into his awful prose black-hole.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(10-25-2016 04:20 PM)456 Wrote:  

Agree generally with Red_Pillage and Aurini and Travesty -- it is hard to hold both possibilities in one's head at the same time.

Which is why I called it a fine example of male hamstering. It's a convenient rationale.

[questor70]

Sorry for bumping another thread but this dovetails on my last ex-gf experience so I thought it would be instructive to share.

The issue isn't whether ONS is a red flag, but that it's a mutual procedural mistake if the intent is LTR.

In my experience it's not hard at all for a random man and woman to establish a basic sexual connection. All you really need is two horny people who convince each other that they aren't serial killers. Build some basic trust/comfort and by the time you do it for the first time you've at least validated the relationship as worthy of F-buddy status.

The problem is that old fashioned notions of sex being the final consummation of two people falling in love means you've put the cart before the horse.

If you just happened to have an ONS with someone you didn't know that well (like I did) then you're now going to have to backtrack and search for red-flags as you try to date. But the problem is since you've crossed the physical threshold you're going to now be banging 90% of the time and discovering their personality 10% of the time.

The end result is you can go a couple months downfield before you realize you're investing in someone who is really NOT right for you as anything other than an F-buddy. That's where the regret and the drama begins. It's total Meatloaf Paradise by the Dashboard Light territory where you don't want to be shamed as a cad but you want out:

I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god and on my mother's grave
That I would love you to the end of time
I swore that I would love you to the end of time!
So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
It's all that I can do
Praying for the end of time,
So I can end my time with you!!

So for LTR it's really best to "vet" her through a series of non-sexual dates. I know that's not what advocates of game would recommend.

The only alternative is to just step into these things opportunistically knowing full well that the vast majority of them will crash and burn in short order just for the sake of maximizing notches.

[456]

Interesting contrarian perspective.

However, I think your estimate of 90/10 sex/personality-discovering is exaggerated.

Obviously sex is less than 90% of the time if you're hanging out a lot, but that 10% can be quite expanded if you're really digging into who she is, seeing how she acts / reacts to experiences you create.

I tend to create similar experiences for girls I relationship with, almost like my own syllabus on which to grade them. I have some typical first few outings, explorations, drives/walks, things I like to do, films I like to watch, almost to see what they'll elicit in her.

You can get out before / as the honeymoon period ends if you weigh that non-sexual time appropriately and try to see past the rose-colored ray bans.

[questor70]

OK, correction. I wouldn't say that you don't figure out who you're dealing with. You do, even just during the 20 minute refractory period deep-talks. The problem is that if you were just dating in a 1950s style, if you received red flag, you'd be able to bow out gracefully. When you're banging like rabbits it's more difficult. Your objectivity goes to sh*t.

And this works for both genders.

It took me a long time to develop enough inner-strength to reach over and turn the sex faucet off on a relationship that worked well enough for a fling but I knew down deep had an expiration-date. But the clinger caught the female version of being pussy-whipped. She started issuing her complaints about who I was (as a whole person) while simultaneously NOT wanting to let me go (because she just craved the D). That's a classic case of wanting me around for what I could do sexually but not truly wanting ME. That's what happens when you kind of eat dessert before the main course only to find out that the main course is an acquired taste. So you just push the plate away and go back for more dessert.

As a compromise it's not a bad deal to fall into this sort of thing if you're in your 20s or something, but not at my stage of life.

[Kid Twist]

questor's got it

one more thing though: there is the vulnerability factor that afflicts women more than men just due to basic biological and sex differences

the order and culmination of surrender in the right path makes sense

the other stuff here makes no sense, so people try to make sense of it

usually that means the woman goes crazy, feels used, and ... really in a way she was because that's her job = be the gatekeeper, thus she failed

women not having long term vision (ie absence of male wisdom and leadership in their lives) is a recipe for disaster

people think they can do this crap but in reality they are stupid humans and slaves if they don't think and trust people, or learn from experiences where it's obvious what's going on

welcome to the modern day (dating)

[Adrenaline]

What if I bang her first night but she's a 23 year old virgin beforehand? Happened to me recently. LTR material or not?

[Leonard D Neubache]

The hard question there is always "what makes you think this 23 year old virgin first night lay is telling you the truth".

Without asking for too much detail, why on earth did she clamp legs until 23 only to throw them open for you on night one?! Honest question.

As for an LTR being ruled out by a first night lay, I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I know long term couples that have built successful marriages out of such shaky foundations. Body chemistry can be strange like that. But I would certainly ramp up my post-fuck screening to a whole other level.

[philosophical_recovery]

(02-27-2017 08:54 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

The hard question there is always "what makes you think this 23 year old virgin first night lay is telling you the truth".

Without asking for too much detail, why on earth did she clamp legs until 23 only to throw them open for you on night one?! Honest question.

As for LTR being ruled out by a first night lay, I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I know long term couples that have built successful marriages out of such shaky foundations. Body chemistry can be strange like that. But I would certainly ramp up my post-fuck screening to a whole other level.

Same.

One of the healthiest couple I met, meaning both looked good in their mid-40s after multiple kids, told me they hadn't parted since their first night together.

Raised their kids in alternative schools away from sweets and they were smart as hell, musicians, and athletic.

For years now I've always gone for a bang the first night if logistics are at all possible. Most of the time they are.

Based on non-statistical, anecdotal evidence, the "good girls" that put off sex for a while are the biggest pain in the ass and worst in bed when they finally put out. They give up on effort after they give up their vag.

Whereas girls that go for it right away give something other than their pussies to keep me around. Maybe it's an anti-slut defense and it's only temporary. Only time lets you know.

But there are counterarguments and outliers for any situation.

[tremont]

Disagree, most LTR's I have had started with sex on the first night or close to it. I never understood how delaying sex was supposed to make a relationship better. It seems unnatural and awkward. If you want to fuck then go and fuck.

It doesn't mean much to me how fast she gives it up. Just because she gave it up for me doesn't mean she gives it up for everyone. Trashy girls are trashy regardless if you successfully lay them or not. It's really about what happens outside of sex that decides if I want to keep her around or not.

If your best criteria for LTR is how quickly she opened her legs for you, then I think you need to get better at screening.

[Steelex]

Trick question, women are not LTR material. They're all trix.

Any girl will sleep with the right guy on the first night and make a lesser guy wait. It's all relative. Just cause she made you wait 3 dates doesn't mean a few other guys didn't slip it in on day 1. You just don't know.

Either way it's a pointless metric being used to answer a pointless question. It's like sticking your hand in a gators mouth and proclaiming it a tame gator because it didn't bite your hand THAT TIME.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(02-27-2017 10:02 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

Trick question, women are not LTR material. They're all trix.
...

Got a father?
Got a grandfather?
Got a great grandfather?

See where this goes?

[Mufasa]

Ive written off a few behaviors that make a girl LTR material--they just don't count.

Personally I ask what does this girl give me that I can't get anywhere else.

Things that are replacable:

• she laughs at my jokes--of course I'm funny
• she wants to fuck me--of course I fuck well
• she wants to show me off--of course I'm fly
• She wants to hang out with me--course I'm dope
  

You get the idea
Women and men don't need each other in todays social climate. We both have jobs, access to weapons for protection, access to education, ETC. We only need dick and pussy from one another. So things to me that make a girl LTR material are the things she can give me beyond her pussy that I can provide/do for myself without me asking or hinting for.

• being genuinely appreciative of things I do--this one is crazy how few women do this shit.
• Empathy--I have not found a girl that thinks "ok mufasa is doing this for me what can I do to make his life/this task easier" I've had it happen a few times but its more of a rare occurrence than common--huge red flag for me.
• Inspirational--Only one girl has said some shit that really made me want to get back on the horse for goals I had set for myself. Probably too rare to be on this list but now that I've seen it and I know its there I want this.
  

At this point in my game thats it. The empathy point rules out most girls shortly after I bang a girl.
I think that out of the 23 lays I have only 1 I consider LTR material and 2 that I actually miss. An additional 2 of them showed flashes of LTR potential. The girl that was inspirational I did not bang. If I had fucked her she would have been the 2nd girl to be LTR material as she checked all three requirements a million times over.

[torridon747]

(02-27-2017 11:55 PM)Mufasa Wrote:  

• being genuinely appreciative of things I do--this one is crazy how few women do this shit.
• Empathy--I have not found a girl that thinks "ok mufasa is doing this for me what can I do to make his life/this task easier" I've had it happen a few times but its more of a rare occurrence than common--huge red flag for me.
• Inspirational--Only one girl has said some shit that really made me want to get back on the horse for goals I had set for myself. Probably too rare to be on this list but now that I've seen it and I know its there I want this.
  

I'm at a similar notch count and I've only met one girl that has anywhere even close to the bolded quote. It wasn't even all that impressive but I still remember what she said "How can you say you've failed at something you're still working on". Though it's not particurely insightful; it was what I needed to hear at the moment. It was during a conversation about how I get depressed around the holidays as it's just a reminder that I've failed to create an environment where I surround people that care for eachother - basically a family. It was christmas morning; after she sent a picture of her with a bow on her thighs and told me to come unwrap my present. I'm not the nicest person in the world, often hateful, but after that I was as gentle as could be; it really got me

That quality is extremely rare, it's very refreshing when you find it.

[torridon747]

Dupe

[Steelex]

Leonard,

I come from a long line of whores, bastards, and adulterers. My mom was a side chick and my child's mother is still my side chick.

I don't get where you're going with that.

[Mufasa]

LTR Material rightchea

[url=https://twitter.com/MikeChosen1/status/834472039234883586<br />][/url]

$8000 bid for a date jesus christ

[Leonard D Neubache]

(02-28-2017 12:57 AM)Steelex Wrote:  

Leonard,

I come from a long line of whores, bastards, and adulterers. My mom was a side chick and my child's mother is still my side chick.

I don't get where you're going with that.

Very well.

The vast majority of the rest of society going back to the initial formation of civilisation has engaged in some form of pair bonding, culminating in what we would refer to as traditional western marriage. This is one of the main cornerstones of our entire way of life.

I don't shame guys for pumping and dumping sluts, but neither do I truck with attitude that derides men successfully living traditional lives.

Thousands of years of societal evolution does not boil down to some cheap ghetto rap lyrics, and this particular decade is not the end of history.

p.s. I'm sorry to hear that your family line fell to shit, but that doesn't make it normal much less enviable. I advise you not to jettison the part of you that can break the cycle of illegitimacy, no matter how badly you feel you've been cheated. I'm breaking that cycle myself and no amount of casual fucking ever brought me the same amount of fulfilment that nurturing and providing for my family gives me.

[Dream Medicine]

Very interesting thread. Some great, thought-provoking posts so far.

(02-27-2017 03:39 PM)Adrenaline Wrote:  

What if I bang her first night but she's a 23 year old virgin beforehand? Happened to me recently. LTR material or not?

I think a lot more context is needed before a useful answer can be given here. For starters, how do you define a LTR? How did you meet? How long have you been with her since? What are the best/worst of her traits? Do you know why she chose you in particular? Did she give you a lot of resistance in the bedroom? What evidence indicates that she was actually a virgin?

===================================

As for the broader question:

{1} My current definition of LTR = future mother material

As Leonard D Neubache noted in the above link, the answer to this question is highly dependent on your definition of LTR. In the past I would've merely considered a LTR to be a committed relationship lasting 1 year or more (but without living together or kids involved), so my answer would've been different in that context.

{2} General opinion

My overall position is that, in almost all cases, the answer is 'yes' (If I bang a girl the 1st night, she's not LTR material), and in a select few cases the answer is 'no' (banging on the first night is irrelevant). However, a detailed picture of the relationship dynamics should be considered. So it's difficult to answer the original question with a definitive yes/no statement.

Giving it up quick may not be a pure deal breaker in itself, however should be considered, among many other factors, as a significant red flag. Why? Because it is likely to indicate a lack of impulse control and shows she can be seduced quickly - traits which are not conducive to an LTR. On the other hand, taking a while to give it up does not necessarily indicate that she is LTR material because many other factors should be taken into account. Even if she resisted you, it doesn't mean she hasn't played around before. Nonetheless, being somewhat difficult to lay is generally a meaningful sign of stronger self-control and potential resistance to other men.



{3} Anecdotal evidence

I don't view any of my (approximately) 40 same-night-lays as potential wife material, although I screened out the top prospects for a number of reasons separate to their ease of getting banged or self-control. Of the 90 others I banged that gave me more resistance, there are several who definitely showed future mother potential. Below is a summary of my top three LTRs (judged by quality of experience rather than the quantity of time spent), analysed by time together, number of dates pre-lay, and context of approach:

#1: 5 years together -- 6 days to lay, via day game (a virgin before me)
#2: 1.5 years together -- 3 days to lay, via day game (in progress)
#3: 3 years together -- 6 days to lay, via clubbing

{4} Scientific data

Beyond my own experience of banging around 130 women, there is strong empirical evidence that indicates infidelity and promiscuity is correlated with traits of:

- low conscientiousness,
- low agreeableness,
- low impulse control, and
- the tendency to bang without emotional commitment.

Sleeping around has also been linked to the state of 'ego depletion' (lowered willpower or self-regulation), indicating that both personality and situational factors contribute to the risk of infidelity. What's more, the combination of certain traits and situations lead to a higher risk of extra-marital affairs -- for instance, a woman who is inclined to get laid without emotional involvement is even more likely to be unfaithful when she is in a state of lowered willpower, like being drunk [sources 1,2,3].

It follows that heavy screening, boundary-setting and mate-guarding are essential in LTRs.

{5} A suggestion

If you think that your unicorn banged you on the first night because of your tight game and connection -- yet has never banged and never will bang anyone else on the first night, or, will be completely loyal to you -- I would suggest that you consider the likelihood of this belief being accurate versus the extent to which this belief reflects a self-serving rationalisation based on post-choice or sunk cost bias (further reading here). Put another way, you may be one of the few who just 'clicked' with the right woman, or you may simply be deluding yourself. If you are looking to wife up a girl who gave it up easy then I hope she absolutely WORSHIPS the ground you walk on.

{6} In closing

Having said all this, I am yet to have children so, in consideration of the posts by Rhyme or Reason and by Turnus, I will read with interest and consider the thoughts of the men who are enjoying or have enjoyed marriage-with-kids. Any other constructive feedback is always welcome.

{7} Sources and selected quotes

(Note: in-text references removed and some passages snipped for conciseness)

[1] Schmitt, D. P. (2004). The Big Five related to risky sexual behaviour across 10 world regions: Differential personality associations of sexual promiscuity and relationship infidelity. European Journal of personality, 18(4), 301-319.

Quote:

Perhaps the strongest personality correlate of risky sexual behaviour is impulsive sensation-seeking. Among the Big Five personality dimensions, impulsive sensation-seeking is most closely associated with low agreeableness and low conscientiousness.

Quote:

Based on the self-report responses of 16,363 people across 52 nations... The personality trait of low agreeableness is associated with relationship infidelity. Low levels of conscientiousness universally relate to higher levels of relationship infidelity. In other words, people who describe themselves as more unfaithful tend to have personality traits linked to a lack of trust and empathy (i.e. low agreeableness) and they tend to be disorganized and unreliable (i.e. low conscientiousness).

[2] Baumeister, R. F., Gailliot, M., DeWall, C. N., & Oaten, M. (2006). Self‐regulation and personality: How interventions increase regulatory success, and how depletion moderates the effects of traits on behavior. Journal of personality, 74(6), 1773-1802.

Quote:

The ability to alter one’s responses so as to bring them into line with ideals, moral values, social norms, laws, and other standards is an important key to success in life and one of the most important and distinctively human traits. The capacity for self-regulation is thus one of the most important elements of personality.

One could go so far as to say it is the single most important aspect because, given sufficient powers of self-regulation, any other personality trait can be overcome. In other words, if your self-regulation is powerful enough, then regardless of your inclinations, past experiences, or neuroses, you can always do the adaptive or right thing. Self-regulation can be the trump card of personality.

Quote:

...ego depletion appears to reduce inhibitions, thereby affecting people who have strong inhibitory controls over particular behaviors (ranging from eating to sex to prejudice) and releasing socially undesirable behaviors that may ordinarily be subject to strict control.

[3] McIntyre, J. C., Barlow, F. K., & Hayward, L. E. (2015). Stronger sexual desires only predict bold romantic intentions and reported infidelity when self‐control is low. Australian Journal of Psychology, 67(3), 178-186.

Quote:

In study 1, we demonstrated that stronger dispositional sexual desires predicted a higher likelihood of reporting previous infidelity for people with low, but not high, self-control.

In Study 2, we extended on these findings by showing that sexual desires predicted approaching and courting an attractive stranger in an imagined scenario, as well as hypothetical infidelity, only when participants were depleted.

No main effects emerged of self-control on any romantic measures, suggesting that self-control failures may promote behaviours that reflect people’s underlying sexual desires, rather than promoting universally disinhibited romantic behaviour