[Samseau]

Also, please keep in mind the context behind Geert Wilders and the Netherlands: Islamic immigration to that country has been very high, and there have been many cartoonists, child rapings (think Rotherham), and even politicians who have been destroyed by Muslims.

Geert is the leading politician to halt immigration and side with Israel in Netherlands, and when stuff like this happens I can't help but think his popularity will be increasing. Muslims are practically making a martyr out of him.

Also, someone asked if Wilders is that tall: and yes, Dutch are among the tallest, if not THE tallest, the world. I picked up my Dutch flag last year, she was 5'9'', and told me she was practically a midget at home. I'm 5'8''. She was up there on tallest women I've banged. (5'11' my record!)

[Aliblahba]

   

[Suits]

^Aliblahba never fails to improve a thread.

[Uzisuicide]

QC, "No one religion is better or worse than any other"? From the non believers perspective I can see the point you're trying to make. But that statement is absurd when you consider current events. One religion has armies of followers killing, expanding and subjugating people under it. While some others are huddled up in their churches and synagogues on the weekends and aren't dragging any one through the front doors.

Pamela Gellar isn't the point. She's not murdering folks with whom she disagrees. She's trying to raise the consciousness of Americans to the growing radical Islamic problem here at home and throughout the world. She's entitled to voice her first amendment rights especially if it raises controversy. Radicals bringing guns to an art show does nothing more than bolster her argument.

The link you posted is more or less a mainstream media hit job. The article quotes smears against Gellar from radical leftist organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Center for American Progress! The latter was founded by John Podesta who heads up Hillary 2016. Amazing that this is the first time I can remember the media blaming the victims for anything.

I enjoy reading your posts and columns QC and find them reasonable and we'll thought out. But I flat disagree with you on this one. We are all in grave danger and we've got to put our 'game face' on here if we want to survive. The alliance between the left and radical Islam is alarming.

[Quintus Curtius]

(05-05-2015 01:14 AM)Uzisuicide Wrote:  

QC, "No one religion is better or worse than any other"? From the non believers perspective I can see the point you're trying to make. But that statement is absurd when you consider current events. One religion has armies of followers killing, expanding and subjugating people under it. While some others are huddled up in their churches and synagogues on the weekends and aren't dragging any one through the front doors.

Pamela Gellar isn't the point. She's not murdering folks with whom she disagrees. She's trying to raise the consciousness of Americans to the growing radical Islamic problem here at home and throughout the world. She's entitled to voice her first amendment rights especially if it raises controversy. Radicals bringing guns to an art show does nothing more than bolster her argument.

The link you posted is more or less a mainstream media hit job. The article quotes smears against Gellar from radical leftist organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Center for American Progress! The latter was founded by John Podesta who heads up Hillary 2016. Amazing that this is the first time I can remember the media blaming the victims for anything.

I enjoy reading your posts and columns QC and find them reasonable and we'll thought out. But I flat disagree with you on this one. We are all in grave danger and we've got to put our 'game face' on here if we want to survive. The alliance between the left and radical Islam is alarming.

Things are a little bit more complicated than this, I'm afraid.

No one likes fundamentalists or terrorists of any stripe, but the West and Israel find it convenient to use them for their own purposes when they need a dirty job to do. All sorts of fundamentalist groups are funded and trained by the usual suspects (US, Israel, Saudi Arabia), and used to destabilize governments that don't toe the US line, such as Syria and Iran.

And when these frankensteins come back to bite the West in the ass (by showing up on Europe's doorstep or the US's doorstep), then the West tries to play innocent like they can't believe what's happening.

"Why is this happening"! "How awful these people are"!

Well, of course they're awful. But your government has been trying to have it both ways. They want to use them for their own nefarious purposes, and then try to play victim when it's convenient. Just like Al-Qaeda and Afghanistan in the 1990s. Remember how that turned out?

You can't have it both ways.

As for Pamela Geller, she's just a Zionist hatemonger. She couldn't care less about freedom of speech. Her little game is peddling fear and hate to gullible, ignorant Americans. She runs around the world trying to portray Israel as an innocent victim, and tries to incite fear and hate against an entire religion (and ethnic group).

She's full of shit.

[RedPillUK]

"No one religion is better or worse than the other" "all religions are equally devoid of truth"

This is blue pill, egalatarian thinking, people who say this sorta stuff are normally blue pill liberals and just repeat this nonsense out of ignorance.

Once you accept that people are NOT equal, and you look around and realise actually hardly anything is equal. It becomes very difficult to still accept that all religions are equally bad or good. Once you can accept the un PC truths of inequality, it should follow that not all religions are equal.

It is pretty clear that different religions have different things to say, some religions may have more useful knowledge on marriage and some have different advice on meditation and things like that.

It is extremely clear to see which religion gets offended over the most pathetic stuff, and which kills people over it. You don't even need to bring up Islam's brutal history, just the modern era is enough. But still, there are people here shouting NAMALT(not all muslims are like that), stop criticising, christianity's bad too! racist! etc etc. It all just reminds me of feminists saying NAWALT! men are bad too! mysogynist!

[kaotic]

(05-05-2015 11:37 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

"No one religion is better or worse than the other" "all religions are equally devoid of truth"

This is blue pill, egalatarian thinking, people who say this sorta stuff are normally blue pill liberals and just repeat this nonsense out of ignorance.

Once you accept that people are NOT equal, and you look around and realise actually hardly anything is equal. It becomes very difficult to still accept that all religions are equally bad or good. Once you can accept the un PC truths of inequality, it should follow that not all religions are equal.

It is pretty clear that different religions have different things to say, some religions may have more useful knowledge on marriage and some have different advice on meditation and things like that.

It is extremely clear to see which religion gets offended over the most pathetic stuff, and which kills people over it. You don't even need to bring up Islam's brutal history, just the modern era is enough. But still, there are people here shouting NAMALT(not all muslims are like that), stop criticising, christianity's bad too! racist! etc etc. It all just reminds me of feminists saying NAWALT! men are bad too! mysogynist!

Go back and re-read Quintus's few posts and you'll understand what he's trying to say. It isn't "blue pill" at all.

You realize we have "red pill" muslim players on here right?

Sure muslim extremists get offended in the modern era, ever take a look back a just a few centuries ? The Church would jail your ass for saying the earth isn't flat.

Funny how that works out.

Religion hasn't worked out for the best in ages, I grow tired of seeing the divide, ignorance, and hatred.

[mikado]

(05-05-2015 11:59 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 11:37 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

"No one religion is better or worse than the other" "all religions are equally devoid of truth"

This is blue pill, egalatarian thinking, people who say this sorta stuff are normally blue pill liberals and just repeat this nonsense out of ignorance.

Once you accept that people are NOT equal, and you look around and realise actually hardly anything is equal. It becomes very difficult to still accept that all religions are equally bad or good. Once you can accept the un PC truths of inequality, it should follow that not all religions are equal.

It is pretty clear that different religions have different things to say, some religions may have more useful knowledge on marriage and some have different advice on meditation and things like that.

It is extremely clear to see which religion gets offended over the most pathetic stuff, and which kills people over it. You don't even need to bring up Islam's brutal history, just the modern era is enough. But still, there are people here shouting NAMALT(not all muslims are like that), stop criticising, christianity's bad too! racist! etc etc. It all just reminds me of feminists saying NAWALT! men are bad too! mysogynist!

Go back and re-read Quintus's few posts and you'll understand what he's trying to say. It isn't "blue pill" at all.

You realize we have "red pill" muslim players on here right?

Sure muslim extremists get offended in the modern era, ever take a look back a just a few centuries ? The Church would jail your ass for saying the earth isn't flat.

Funny how that works out.

Religion hasn't worked out for the best in ages, I grow tired of seeing the divide, ignorance, and hatred.

Selective memory at play.
Or they rationalize it by saying that red pill Muslims aren't really "true Muslims".
Whatever fits their narrative.

[kaotic]

(05-05-2015 01:04 PM)mikado Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 11:59 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 11:37 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

"No one religion is better or worse than the other" "all religions are equally devoid of truth"

This is blue pill, egalatarian thinking, people who say this sorta stuff are normally blue pill liberals and just repeat this nonsense out of ignorance.

Once you accept that people are NOT equal, and you look around and realise actually hardly anything is equal. It becomes very difficult to still accept that all religions are equally bad or good. Once you can accept the un PC truths of inequality, it should follow that not all religions are equal.

It is pretty clear that different religions have different things to say, some religions may have more useful knowledge on marriage and some have different advice on meditation and things like that.

It is extremely clear to see which religion gets offended over the most pathetic stuff, and which kills people over it. You don't even need to bring up Islam's brutal history, just the modern era is enough. But still, there are people here shouting NAMALT(not all muslims are like that), stop criticising, christianity's bad too! racist! etc etc. It all just reminds me of feminists saying NAWALT! men are bad too! mysogynist!

Go back and re-read Quintus's few posts and you'll understand what he's trying to say. It isn't "blue pill" at all.

You realize we have "red pill" muslim players on here right?

Sure muslim extremists get offended in the modern era, ever take a look back a just a few centuries ? The Church would jail your ass for saying the earth isn't flat.

Funny how that works out.

Religion hasn't worked out for the best in ages, I grow tired of seeing the divide, ignorance, and hatred.

Selective memory at play.
Or they rationalize it by saying that red pill Muslims aren't really "true Muslims".
Whatever fits their narrative.

There is always a counter, the whole red/blue pill narrative is overplayed in my opinion.

What is a true (X) religious follower anyways nowadays ? Followers are always adapting or reinterpreting.

[JuanQuinQuin]

I do believe the Texans were trolling. But they are within their rights to troll. 1st Amendment and all. Besides IT IS TEXAS. Big conservative state outside its major cities. It is their communities and the majority of people are christians.

Now if the event would be held in St Louis which has a big very big Muslim population. They had it coming.

Besides, the bigger trolling in the US so far was the NY Muslims putting a mosque just a corner away from the World Trade Center and name it the Cordoba Mosque, the first mosque in Spain after the Muslim or Moor conquest. Thats heavy trolling. A trolling I could respect!

Besides. After traveling all over the Middle East. I think the West should take the Middle East approach to other religions. You do not like it this way. Leave!!!!

[Sherman]

It's amazing how simple narratives spread through the media. An organization based in New York City rented an auditorium in Texas to hold their meetings. The state of Texas and Texans didn't make any statement about anyone.

[Samseau]

(05-05-2015 11:59 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 11:37 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

"No one religion is better or worse than the other" "all religions are equally devoid of truth"

This is blue pill, egalatarian thinking, people who say this sorta stuff are normally blue pill liberals and just repeat this nonsense out of ignorance.

Once you accept that people are NOT equal, and you look around and realise actually hardly anything is equal. It becomes very difficult to still accept that all religions are equally bad or good. Once you can accept the un PC truths of inequality, it should follow that not all religions are equal.

It is pretty clear that different religions have different things to say, some religions may have more useful knowledge on marriage and some have different advice on meditation and things like that.

It is extremely clear to see which religion gets offended over the most pathetic stuff, and which kills people over it. You don't even need to bring up Islam's brutal history, just the modern era is enough. But still, there are people here shouting NAMALT(not all muslims are like that), stop criticising, christianity's bad too! racist! etc etc. It all just reminds me of feminists saying NAWALT! men are bad too! mysogynist!

Go back and re-read Quintus's few posts and you'll understand what he's trying to say. It isn't "blue pill" at all.

You realize we have "red pill" muslim players on here right?

Sure muslim extremists get offended in the modern era, ever take a look back a just a few centuries ? The Church would jail your ass for saying the earth isn't flat.

Don't confuse Christians with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church had a time when they were a force for good in the world but that time has long passed. It's been hundreds of years since the Catholics properly represented Christ.

Many people on here need some serious history lessons. I don't even know where to start?

Saying Christianity is just another religion like Islam is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. It's not true on any level. The barbarism coming out of Islam is self-evident. Muslims flock in droves to Christian countries, have invaded and taken over Christian countries, but how many Christians have done the opposite? The closest thing to an invasion of Muslim lands was the Crusades, and if anyone here would bother to read up on Crusader accounts you'd find:

- The middle east, formerly once one of the richest Christian places in the world was in tatters when the Crusaders arrived. The Muslims had raped the place clean.

- No one wanted to stay because the Holy Land had become a dump. The reason the Muslims took Jerusalem back was because most of the Crusaders returned to Europe and had no desire to ever come back. There was not much left in the Middle East.

- Successive crusades were basically all evil and driven by profit instead of freeing Christians from Islamic rule.

- The Catholic Church never became rich until it raped Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade. Imagine if Chicago and Boston teamed up and sacked, pillaged, and raped NYC. That's what the fourth crusade was and that's how the Catholics became mega powerful from all the old Roman wealth they acquired.

As for the modern wars in the Middle East, it's not driven by Christianity but instead by evil plutocrats who all have some kind of profit motive to be made in the Middle East, or huge ties with Israel. 9/11 was the excuse needed to get stuff done, just like Pearl Harbor was the excuse needed to militarize America into a permanent war machine.

Islam is no different than Communism. It's a sick ideology based on power and control. The religion has never produced anything of lasting value and most of their achievements come from Christians who were forced into conversion at the point of a sword. As the Muslims ran out of Christians to enslave and exploit, so too did they stagnate and decline. And once Columbus found a way to trade past the Muslims the entire Islamic world had no more trading caravans to raid or tax, and was completely forgotten until the discovery and use of oil. And as the world finds more places to get oil, we can expect Islamic countries once more to sink into stagnation and depravity as they were at the turn of the 20th century.

If you are a Muslim man, I urge you to seek the truth behind your "religion" and shake off the bonds placed upon you at birth. Your ancestors most likely only became Muslims because they were forced into conversion at the point of a sword, or threats of heavy taxation. But you've moved into countries built by Christians where people can speak truth freely, and you should seek out the truth as it will set you free.

I know many people hate on Muslims the same way people have hated on Communists. But I do not judge those who were raised in a brainwashed environment. I have patience that eventually they will discover the truth if they bother to look for it. Just as Russia today is nothing like it's Communist past, as the Communists have since been driven out of power into irrelevancy, so too would many formerly great Middle Eastern countries return to their glory if Muslims lost their control and relevancy.

[kaotic]

I never said it was the same, I said there IS a problem, I'm also not muslim.

The catholic comparison was tongue in cheek.

Just remember history is written by the victors and their crimes are always cleansed.

The "muslims" in the middle east are too busy profiteering and shitting on Western girls to care reclaiming "glory".

[Island Souljah]

(05-05-2015 05:32 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 11:59 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 11:37 AM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

"No one religion is better or worse than the other" "all religions are equally devoid of truth"

This is blue pill, egalatarian thinking, people who say this sorta stuff are normally blue pill liberals and just repeat this nonsense out of ignorance.

Once you accept that people are NOT equal, and you look around and realise actually hardly anything is equal. It becomes very difficult to still accept that all religions are equally bad or good. Once you can accept the un PC truths of inequality, it should follow that not all religions are equal.

It is pretty clear that different religions have different things to say, some religions may have more useful knowledge on marriage and some have different advice on meditation and things like that.

It is extremely clear to see which religion gets offended over the most pathetic stuff, and which kills people over it. You don't even need to bring up Islam's brutal history, just the modern era is enough. But still, there are people here shouting NAMALT(not all muslims are like that), stop criticising, christianity's bad too! racist! etc etc. It all just reminds me of feminists saying NAWALT! men are bad too! mysogynist!

Go back and re-read Quintus's few posts and you'll understand what he's trying to say. It isn't "blue pill" at all.

You realize we have "red pill" muslim players on here right?

Sure muslim extremists get offended in the modern era, ever take a look back a just a few centuries ? The Church would jail your ass for saying the earth isn't flat.

Don't confuse Christians with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church had a time when they were a force for good in the world but that time has long passed. It's been hundreds of years since the Catholics properly represented Christ.

Many people on here need some serious history lessons. I don't even know where to start?

Saying Christianity is just another religion like Islam is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. It's not true on any level. The barbarism coming out of Islam is self-evident. Muslims flock in droves to Christian countries, have invaded and taken over Christian countries, but how many Christians have done the opposite? The closest thing to an invasion of Muslim lands was the Crusades, and if anyone here would bother to read up on Crusader accounts you'd find:

- The middle east, formerly once one of the richest Christian places in the world was in tatters when the Crusaders arrived. The Muslims had raped the place clean.

- No one wanted to stay because the Holy Land had become a dump. The reason the Muslims took Jerusalem back was because most of the Crusaders returned to Europe and had no desire to ever come back. There was not much left in the Middle East.

- Successive crusades were basically all evil and driven by profit instead of freeing Christians from Islamic rule.

- The Catholic Church never became rich until it raped Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade. Imagine if Chicago and Boston teamed up and sacked, pillaged, and raped NYC. That's what the fourth crusade was and that's how the Catholics became mega powerful from all the old Roman wealth they acquired.

As for the modern wars in the Middle East, it's not driven by Christianity but instead by evil plutocrats who all have some kind of profit motive to be made in the Middle East, or huge ties with Israel. 9/11 was the excuse needed to get stuff done, just like Pearl Harbor was the excuse needed to militarize America into a permanent war machine.

Islam is no different than Communism. It's a sick ideology based on power and control. The religion has never produced anything of lasting value and most of their achievements come from Christians who were forced into conversion at the point of a sword. As the Muslims ran out of Christians to enslave and exploit, so too did they stagnate and decline. And once Columbus found a way to trade past the Muslims the entire Islamic world had no more trading caravans to raid or tax, and was completely forgotten until the discovery and use of oil. And as the world finds more places to get oil, we can expect Islamic countries once more to sink into stagnation and depravity as they were at the turn of the 20th century.

If you are a Muslim man, I urge you to seek the truth behind your "religion" and shake off the bonds placed upon you at birth. Your ancestors most likely only became Muslims because they were forced into conversion at the point of a sword, or threats of heavy taxation. But you've moved into countries built by Christians where people can speak truth freely, and you should seek out the truth as it will set you free.

I know many people hate on Muslims the same way people have hated on Communists. But I do not judge those who were raised in a brainwashed environment. I have patience that eventually they will discover the truth if they bother to look for it. Just as Russia today is nothing like it's Communist past, as the Communists have since been driven out of power into irrelevancy, so too would many formerly great Middle Eastern countries return to their glory if Muslims lost their control and relevancy.

Apparently you havent heard of the Andalusian Caliphate which was the height of worldwide technology and culture and provided its giant shoulders so the dwarves of the enlightenment could see beyond the horizon and develop our modern world.
You say others need a history lesson then say Christians dont attack Muslim countries yet the US has invaded, attacked, or bombed: Ill give you a hint Syria was the 14th. How is that for current events? You say the Middle East was one of the richest Christian places in the world. When was this? The Levant, Anatolia, and North Africa were part of the Byzantine Empire but are not in the Middle East so what part of the Middle East was rich and Christian? Saying Islam is bad or Islam is like Communism and Communism is bad is just poor scholarship, religions and economic systems cant just subjectively and non-quantitatively be termed good or bad. Life is just not that cut and dry or absolute. Everything is relative, both sides think they are right and God is with them and they have the moral high ground, see how that works. Killings only bad if you kill good people, its good if you kill bad people. Its easy to point the finger at someone else and claim superiority. The truth is, Zionism is so thoroughly embedded in the Western WASP mind through relentless programming and conditioning that Islam will always be bad, Christianity will always be good, and the poor Jews are just a bunch of innocent, friendly bankers, who are our friends and everybody is always picking on them for no reason so its the US's fiduciary and moral duty to protect Israel even though they run an apartheid state and are the 24th richest nation in the world. For the record I dont believe in deities of any sort and I think anyone believing in such superstitions in the 21st century is kind of behind the times, so to speak. However I would love to see the average American wake up and see how badly our entire economic and political system is controlled by people who's only allegiance is money, power and Israel. Jesus clearly said in the new testament that "Gentiles were like dogs before him" and that he had only been sent to the Jews alone. He also is clearly a composite literary character and not a real historical figure. If you studied Islam you would also find that Muslims believe in the same line of prophets from Adam through to Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad. They believe in the virgin birth of Jesus and nearly every single other principle of Christianity with the exception of the resurrection and his divinity. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are not wildly divergent and polar opposites, they are all just three different expressions of an outdated, bad idea. We dont live in trees anymore wondering why mother nature is so indifferent and life is so full of suffering. We live in a modern, scientific world where wars should not be fought over milleniums-old superstitions and fables (they are not, wars are only ever fought for resources, money, and land) This is clearly a place for enlightened, educated worldly men, so I would love to see something other than the mindless status quo of Bill Maheresque "Islam is bloodier than the other civilized religions", not its not, religion is never civilized.

[Samseau]

^ My gosh, the amount of falsehoods contained above is just astounding. Regardless I'm done here, people can read and make up their own minds. Go check the facts of what I have said and see for yourself.

[Quintus Curtius]

Samseau, you made this statement in an earlier post:

"The religion [Islam] has never produced anything of lasting value and most of their achievements come from Christians who were forced into conversion at the point of a sword."

This is incorrect. We must try to transcend our backgrounds, reject narrow-minded sectarian animosity, and see things fairly and objectively.

Medieval Islam was far ahead of Christian Europe in almost all fields of endeavor: science, medicine, architecture, public health, mathematics, chemistry, sociology, and natural philosophy. While Europe was mired in backwardness and ignorance, the streets of Samarkand, Seville, Baghdad, and Damascus shone like jewels.

This is demonstrable fact. And while Islam did inherit and build on the existing traditions in the Near East, it enlarged and added to that legacy to make Islamic civilization one of the world's great cultures. The genius of Islamic civilization lies in just this: it combined elements of syncretism with an explosive vitality that shook the world.

The influence of Islam on Christianity was immense. From Islam, Christian Europe received foods, drinks, drugs, medicaments, armor, heraldry, artistic patterns, industrial and commercial articles, maritime codes and ways, even the words for these things. It's embedded in the language. All of these words are of Arabic origin: orange, lemon, sugar, syrup sherbet, julep, elixir, azure, admiral, algebra, zero, cipher, azimuth, alembic, zenith, almanac, just to name a few of hundreds.

In the Middle Ages, Moslems had the unchallenged supremacy in science and mathematics. In fact, most of the authorities in these areas wrote books that, translated into Latin, were standard textbooks for Europeans for centuries.

And this supremacy spanned places as disparate as Morocco to Azerbaijan. In 1229, Hasan Al Marraqushi published tables of sines and cosines for each degree, as well as tangents and arc tangents. A generation later, Nasir ud-Din al-Tusi (i.e., of Tus) issued the first ever treatise on trigonometry as an independent field of mathematics.

The outstanding work of physical science in this era was Abu al Fath al Khuzini, whose book (c. 1122) gave a history of science ("Book of the Balance of Wisdom") that proposed the law of universal gravitation. Al-Khawarismi invented logarithms, and gave his name to that mathematical term ("logarithm").

In 1081, Ibrahim Al Sahdi of Valencia constructed the oldest known celestial globe, a brass sphere 81 inches in diameter, that was filled with astronomical data. These are only a few of hundreds.

Other names, out of a great many, that readers here should look up are:

Abu Abdallah Muhammad al Idrisi (geography and astronomy)

Abu Ishaq al-Bitruji (astronomy), known in Europe as Alpetragius.

Abu Muhammad ibn Baitar of Malaga (1190-1248): botanist, whose book remained the standard text until the 16th century.

Islamic medicine was vastly superior to Europe's of the same period. See., e.g.:

Ibn Baitar (medicine)

Abu Marwan ibn Zuhr (1091-1162): Known in Europe as Avenzoar (medicine)

And I haven't even mentioned Averroes, Ibn Sina, or Ibn Khaldun, who are universally famous as philosophers, and scientists, and who were all brilliantly original.

Hospitals were far more numerous in Islam than in Europe. A Syrian physician, Ala' al-Din ibn al-Nafis, described the pulmonary circulation of the blood 300 years before Servetus in Europe. An Arab physician (Ibn al-Khatib) identified the cause of the Black Plague as a contagion and advised quarantine, while the Europeans were flummoxing around in hopeless ignorance.

These are just the few that come to my mind, Samseau.

And I haven't even talked about the Muslim achievements in art, literature, poetry, and philosophy. Chemistry as an experimental science was practically invented by medieval Islam.

Of course, Islam entered a long period of decline after the destruction of Baghdad in 1253, that was helped by other factors. That is a subject for a different day. The fact that the world of Islam today is mired in poverty and war must not blind us to the fact that things were very different at one time. The loss of trade routes, colonialism, and poor leadership were all contributing factors.

But the point here is that we need to recognize that Islam did make original and enduring contributions to world knowledge. These things are not taught in schools in America, so outside of specialist circles they are not well known.

I'll wrap up with this quote from historian Will Durant, which I think is relevant:

As men are members of one another, and generations are moments in a family line, so civilizations are units in a larger whole whose name is history; they are stages in the life of man. Civilization is polygenetic--it is the cooperative product of many peoples, ranks, and faiths; and no one who studies its history can be a bigot of race or creed. Therefore, the scholar, though he belongs to his country through affectionate kinship, feels himself also a citizen of that Country of the Mind which knows no hatreds and no frontiers; he hardly deserves his name if he carries into his study political prejudices, or racial discriminations, or religious animosities; and he accords his grateful homage to any people that has borne the torch and enriched his heritage.

This is what I believe.

[Island Souljah]

Game is primarily and essentially one determining ones own narrative as opposed to letting it be created by others. You and I just have different narratives, thats my whole point, neither of our viewpoints are 100% true or correct, reality is wildly subjective to the observer. I dont fault you though most Westerners are extremely ignorant when it comes to understanding the political, culture, and history of the region in question. As a child one can blame the US education system which has a Cultural Marxist agenda and has clearly failed our nations students, but as an adult ignorance is no excuse and one owes it to themselves to educate themselves whether one is inherently auto-didactic or otherwise.

[TheWastelander]

Quintus, would it be fair to say those achievements were made independent of Islam? Unless religious officials were sponsoring these men, then I don't see how they can also be attributed to Islam rather than just the men themselves. It certainly seems to me like the Arabic Muslim world at the time tolerated men of learning and science better than the Catholic Church did, however.

But were they responsible for creating the environment in which these men flourished or did they simply not interfere in their work?

[Quintus Curtius]

(05-06-2015 09:38 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

Quintus, would it be fair to say those achievements were made independent of Islam? Unless religious officials were sponsoring these men, then I don't see how they can also be attributed to Islam rather than just the men themselves. It certainly seems to me like the Arabic Muslim world at the time tolerated men of learning and science better than the Catholic Church did, however.

But were they responsible for creating the environment in which these men flourished or did they simply not interfere in their work?

Those men and their achievements arose from the cultural climate of learning and tolerance that Islam provided. In those days, in the days of confidence when the civilization was still young, rulers were patrons of the arts and sciences.

There is a saying, which I believe is Hadith (maybe a Muslim here can correct me if I'm wrong), which says: "Seek knowledge, even though it be in China." The idea is that it is incumbent on believers to seek education.

We can't have it both ways. You can't condemn a whole religion for the actions of a few fanatics, and yet at the same time, not give credit to that religion for the achievements of its men of science, scholarship, and art.

We should also note that Islam was far more tolerant, in those days, of religious minorities (like Christians and Jews) than European Christians were of religious minorities in their midst.

I am not a Muslim, but I strongly believe that it is important for us, as men of learning and broad-minded tolerance, to accept the achievements of other civilizations, whether they be Islamic, Chinese, or Hindu.

That's my point. Interested readers can discover for themselves a great deal of these matters by examining the history of medieval Islam. The fact that the decline has been so complete is one of the reasons for the simmering resentment that we find in the region today. But that is a topic for another day.

.

[Samseau]

Quintis, I'll respond to you soon. I have shit to do today though. But the short of what I'll write has the following in it:

- Many of the guys you mentioned above were Christian or Zoroastrian slaves.
- That early golden age period was basically the inertia of previous cultures Islam was riding on before Islam sucked it all dry (Easily seen via inbreeding charts).
- During this "golden age" of Islam, Constantinople was still the first city in the world by any measure and still had the most learning and knowledge from old Rome in it.
- It's not valid to say Islam was good just because it had a small period of good time after it's initial conquests, Rome had the same thing before it spent itself out. 1000 years after Christ you had Constantinople, first city in the world. 1000 years after Mohammad in 1700 AD Islamic countries were already in permanent decline, Ottoman Empire was controlled by the Sultanate of Women. Look at the long run - 1000 years after Constantinople you had America (another country built by Christians). A religion cannot be measured by any small period of time - the hallmark of success is the test of time. The amount of good times in Islam are vastly outweighed by the bad.

I'll back up these claims later with more evidence - but I think I cannot get to this until tomorrow. I will try to soon.

[Quintus Curtius]

(05-06-2015 10:31 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quintis, I'll respond to you soon. I have shit to do today though. But the short of what I'll write has the following in it:

- Many of the guys you mentioned above were Christian or Zoroastrian slaves.
- That early golden age period was basically the inertia of previous cultures Islam was riding on before Islam sucked it all dry (Easily seen via inbreeding charts).
- During this "golden age" of Islam, Constantinople was still the first city in the world by any measure and still had the most learning and knowledge from old Rome in it.
- It's not valid to say Islam was good just because it had a small period of good time after it's initial conquests, Rome had the same thing before it spent itself out. 1000 years after Christ you had Constantinople, first city in the world. 1000 years after Mohammad in 1700 AD Islamic countries were already in permanent decline, Ottoman Empire was controlled by the Sultanate of Women. Look at the long run - 1000 years after Constantinople you had America (another country built by Christians). A religion cannot be measured by any small period of time - the hallmark of success is the test of time. The amount of good times in Islam are vastly outweighed by the bad.

I'll back up these claims later with more evidence - but I think I cannot get to this until tomorrow. I will try to soon.

It doesn't matter, because I've proved my point.

You made the rash statement that "Islam has never done anything original."

And I have proven you to be totally wrong.

The reasons for Islam's decline are a separate issue, and I'm not going to let you deflect attention from my refutation of your statement.

Islam had brilliant men of learning and achievement who were of all ethnicities: Persians, Arabs, Afghans, Turks, Syriac Christians, Chinese, Jews, and even Africans in Timbuktu in the later Middle Ages.

This syncretism is one of its great strengths. Did you know that the great medieval Jewish philosophers, including Musa Ibn Maimum (Moses Maimonides) wrote in Arabic (using Hebrew letters)? Of course not.

Yes, at that time Jews flourished and prospered in Muslim Al-Andalus and in the Near East, at a time when Europeans were disgracing themselves with anti-Semitic pogroms and bigotry.

It doesn't really matter, because Christian chauvinists are never going to acknowledge the achievements of Islamic civilization. No matter how many books are cited, or examples given, there is always going to be the response, "Oh that was done by someone else." They're always going to try to minimize, denigrate, or obfuscate the achievements of people they don't like.

Europe has been winning for the past 500 years, while the Islamic world has sunk into poverty, colonialism, and obscurantism.

There are reasons for this (and those reasons are similar to the reasons why Chinese and Indian civilizations also declined relative to Europe) but those go outside the scope of my original point.

But what the future holds, no one can tell.

[mikado]

(05-06-2015 11:54 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 10:31 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quintis, I'll respond to you soon. I have shit to do today though. But the short of what I'll write has the following in it:

- Many of the guys you mentioned above were Christian or Zoroastrian slaves.
- That early golden age period was basically the inertia of previous cultures Islam was riding on before Islam sucked it all dry (Easily seen via inbreeding charts).
- During this "golden age" of Islam, Constantinople was still the first city in the world by any measure and still had the most learning and knowledge from old Rome in it.
- It's not valid to say Islam was good just because it had a small period of good time after it's initial conquests, Rome had the same thing before it spent itself out. 1000 years after Christ you had Constantinople, first city in the world. 1000 years after Mohammad in 1700 AD Islamic countries were already in permanent decline, Ottoman Empire was controlled by the Sultanate of Women. Look at the long run - 1000 years after Constantinople you had America (another country built by Christians). A religion cannot be measured by any small period of time - the hallmark of success is the test of time. The amount of good times in Islam are vastly outweighed by the bad.

I'll back up these claims later with more evidence - but I think I cannot get to this until tomorrow. I will try to soon.

It doesn't matter, because I've proved my point.

You made the rash statement that "Islam has never done anything original."

And I have proven you to be totally wrong.

The reasons for Islam's decline are a separate issue, and I'm not going to let you deflect attention from my refutation of your statement.

Islam had brilliant men of learning and achievement who were of all ethnicities: Persians, Arabs, Afghans, Turks, Syriac Christians, Chinese, Jews, and even Africans in Timbuktu in the later Middle Ages.

This syncretism is one of its great strengths. Did you know that the great medieval Jewish philosophers, including Musa Ibn Maimum (Moses Maimonides) wrote in Arabic (using Hebrew letters)? Of course not.

Yes, at that time Jews flourished and prospered in Muslim Al-Andalus and in the Near East, at a time when Europeans were disgracing themselves with anti-Semitic pogroms and bigotry.

It doesn't really matter, because Christian chauvinists are never going to acknowledge the achievements of Islamic civilization. No matter how many books are cited, or examples given, there is always going to be the response, "Oh that was done by someone else." They're always going to try to minimize, denigrate, or obfuscate the achievements of people they don't like.

Europe has been winning for the past 500 years, while the Islamic world has sunk into poverty, colonialism, and obscurantism.

There are reasons for this (and those reasons are similar to the reasons why Chinese and Indian civilizations also declined relative to Europe) but those go outside the scope of my original point.

But what the future holds, no one can tell.

This is what I like about you: your objectivity.
+1 from me. I can't believe I didn't rep you yet.

By the way, that hadith about knowledge is correct.

[lskdfjldsf]

Quote:

It doesn't really matter, because Christian chauvinists are never going to acknowledge the achievements of Islamic civilization. No matter how many books are cited, or examples given, there is always going to be the response, "Oh that was done by someone else." They're always going to try to minimize, denigrate, or obfuscate the achievements of people they don't like.

It's difficult to view a civilization in a positive light when it's diametrically opposed to our own, and at every corner in history since its inception, has sought to convert, kill, or enslave those around it. It's a religion deeply rooted at the scriptural level in expansionism and conquest, placing special emphasis on the conversion and subjugation of Christians and Jews (the "People of the Book") in well over 100 verses. This is reinforced by the actions of Mohammed during his lifetime, who led armies against non-believers, beheaded prisoners, married children, and commanded the continuation of his own conquests after death.

Whether you're Spanish, French, German, Polish, Greek, Italian, Austrian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian, Slovak, or any other European nationality, resistance against Islamic expansion is a part of your cultural identity and history. Our ancestors all fought against it in one form or another, perhaps many times. "Christian chauvinists" have the right to value their heritage and stand up against threats to it.

As this relates to contributions during the golden age, keep in mind that Islam overran the two most advanced civilizations in the region - the Romans/Byzantines and the Persians - by sword. The area from Greece to Egypt was known as the center of knowledge and art in the Roman empire, and Islam essentially piggy-backed off the stored wealth there following the plunder of those empires by the first caliphates. Credit where it's due - but the contributions wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

Over the long term, Islamic expansion also destroyed the primary source of wealth in those regions, the shipping and trade routes of the Roman empire; this is why the technological contributions of Muslim civilizations declined steadily over time following the capture of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Constantinople. It's very sad to think that the Middle East and North Africa could be just as wealthy as Europe, perhaps more so, had they not been conquered so early. If those trade routes remained open, the world would look very different today.

I can admire Islamic art and architecture, especially Arabic calligraphy in religious texts. However when it comes to inventions and other more useful contributions, Islamic civilization has a poor track record of progressing our species on its own two feet.

[kaotic]

This has been by far the most positive intelligent discussion of religious history I've read on here, and honestly beyond my religious historical knowledge.

I've got some reading to do to even keep up with Quintus and Sam, I like the civility and debate.

[poutsara]

(05-06-2015 11:54 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

The reasons for Islam's decline are a separate issue, and I'm not going to let you deflect attention from my refutation of your statement. . .

Quintus, all good points from you as usual.

I think that one clear Elephant in the Room when talking about the decline of Islam is the Mongul invasion/ destruction of Baghdad in 1258. 0.5 to 2 million killed in one week.