[atlant]

The "quality of education" while debatable does not have any relevance here, we are talking about the usefulness of a degree from these unis for a job in Asia and if you think these are not taken "seriously" then you don't know what you are talking about, period. HKU/HKUST are considered some of the most elite unis in Asia and should not even be lumped together with mainland unis in terms of legitimacy. For a mainland uni Tsinghua is also very respected. I was not talking about unrenowned unis in some shit tier Chinese backwater town.

[Holy(Muff)Diver]

(03-08-2015 12:41 PM)Veni Vidi Pimpi Wrote:  

I lived in China for a while and speak near fluent Mandarin (actually read/write better than speak now). I haven't been over in China for a few years since I was in other locales (Brazil, Europe) since then but here is my advice that I experienced myself and got from a German expat I became pals with.

1) If you want to job hunt, get away from the foreigner meccas of HK, SZ, GZ, BJ, SH. They are oversaturated with laowai and their growth has actually slowed relative to the rest of the country. If you want to find somewhere you have a higher value, start in second tier cities. In the south, that could be Changsha, Kunnan, or Wuhan. Elsewhere I would recommend Chengdu, Chongqing, Ningbo, Dalian, or Xi'An. Tianjin may still be an option as well. If you are really adventurous, cities like Nanning in Guangxi, Ningxia in Lanzhou, or Guiyang in Guizhou could work too. Here is the thing though: you need to balance between a smaller metropolis but nothing too 'redneck' or they will see your foreigner face and automatically eliminate you.

What type of jobs could you get in those cities, apart from teaching? Don't they usually pay lower?

I was on a date with a girl from Changsha recently. She told me modeling jobs were high in demand there. "If you're white you're hired" were basically her exact words.

Still, is there a lot of potential to make big money in these cities?

[Bushido]

Going to a local university will help you get hired by local firms for sure. A good masters course should link you up with employers from the region, if that's what you want. I know it works that way in Japan for example, but do you really want to work for a Chinese company? By all accounts they suck as employers.

I don't think western companies care so much about a masters in Asia and would actually prefer a western education. Hell, the Chinese are falling over themselves to study abroad. If you are looking to work for a local office of a big multinational then starting your career in the West is usually the way it's done. It's stupid and frustrating but that's just how it is.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a masters degree. Just book your ticket to where you want to work and get on the ground. That's what I did to kickstart my career in Japan. I got a job offer after about 3 months there but my Japanese was already pretty solid. Teaching isn't such a bad idea if you are also learning the lingo and out there networking with people.

[Bushido]

Oh and "elite universities" in Asia are far below the standard of the best universities in the US/Europe. Tokyo University is worshipped by the Japanese but nobody gives a shit anywhere else. I wouldn't worry about the local pecking order as you are a foreigner and not likely to fit that paradigm anyway.

[clever alias]

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

[Fast Eddie]

(03-13-2015 09:46 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

So are you saying that there is absolutely no way for people to get a "professional" job in China, unless they are lucky enough to convince the Western company they already work for to send them there?

[clever alias]

(03-13-2015 04:09 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 09:46 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

So are you saying that there is absolutely no way for people to get a "professional" job in China, unless they are lucky enough to convince the Western company they already work for to send them there?

I've said this dozens of times already. Do you have a technical, in demand skill? Do you have a lot of management experience? No? Then it's a long journey, and it's uphill the entire way.

[Suits]

(03-13-2015 10:25 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 04:09 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 09:46 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

So are you saying that there is absolutely no way for people to get a "professional" job in China, unless they are lucky enough to convince the Western company they already work for to send them there?

I've said this dozens of times already. Do you have a technical, in demand skill? Do you have a lot of management experience? No? Then it's a long journey, and it's uphill the entire way.

Is there anywhere in the world where you can get a "professional" job without "professional" skills?

As a rule, you can with the skills/education, but that would be for an entry level salary, which will pay for far below a Western standard of living in China.

If you want to make enough money to live well (as in not share a bed with a roommate, which is what many of my younger [20-25] friends do to survive here), you'll need enough demonstrated skills, education and experience to convince employers they'll make money spending the extra money to hire you.

So, the short answer to your question, is no.

Of course, you'll need demonstrated skills, education and experiences to get hired by Western company at a level where you have enough value to be worth sending overseas.

Until then, you get an entry level position and try to increase your value in the West until you are valuable enough to be placed in a key position in Asia that can't be filled by 10 high quality locals for the same cost.

[Chula1234]

(03-13-2015 09:46 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

I call BS, and suppose you enrolled within a non degree seeking program, right? These are commonly regarded as Cash Cows and have similar functions as Harvard Summer School or other programs in the US.. great name but no academic value.

I have many friends among them both Chinese and non ethnic Chinese who did their masters in China after having graduated from top tier schools in the Western world. Many of them have landed jobs in MBB consulting or Bulge Bracket IB Banks. Chinese Universities will get you very far not only within China itself, but also internationally and value high academic rigor. From my experience, US state schools have a level significantly lower to Chinese schools.

I actually can recall success stories from many people having found jobs in China and would suggest you to use the search function on Linkedin. I hope you understand I won't post any details or links for privacy reasons..

[clever alias]

Part of my undergrad degree required me to study for an academic year. I was taking actual courses chief.

If you graduated from a top tier Western university and ended up in banking or consulting, then you wasted your time doing a master's in China.

"From my experience, US state schools have a level significantly lower to Chinese schools. "

You have no experience then.

[WalterBlack]

How valuable is a UK undergrad and US grad school degree in China? I work in corporate finance, but I don’t speak Chinese. I think I would have a good chance if I did speak Chinese...

[clever alias]

(03-16-2015 06:43 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

How valuable is a UK undergrad and US grad school degree in China? I work in corporate finance, but I don’t speak Chinese. I think I would have a good chance if I did speak Chinese...

I don't think the demand for corporate finance positions outside of management are that great in mainland China, but HK would have a lot more opportunities.

[WalterBlack]

(03-16-2015 08:06 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

(03-16-2015 06:43 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

How valuable is a UK undergrad and US grad school degree in China? I work in corporate finance, but I don’t speak Chinese. I think I would have a good chance if I did speak Chinese...

I don't think the demand for corporate finance positions outside of management are that great in mainland China, but HK would have a lot more opportunities.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't too impressed by the talent in HK when I visited, I saw much hotter women when I crossed the border into mainland China. No chance of anything in mainland China?

[clever alias]

I don't know much about corporate finance, but considering how regulated their markets are, and how rampant nepotism is in banking specifically, I can't imagine it would be plentiful.

[Suits]

(03-17-2015 01:25 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

(03-16-2015 08:06 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

(03-16-2015 06:43 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

How valuable is a UK undergrad and US grad school degree in China? I work in corporate finance, but I don’t speak Chinese. I think I would have a good chance if I did speak Chinese...

I don't think the demand for corporate finance positions outside of management are that great in mainland China, but HK would have a lot more opportunities.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't too impressed by the talent in HK when I visited, I saw much hotter women when I crossed the border into mainland China. No chance of anything in mainland China?

I've met guys based out of Beijing and especially Shanghai that are in finance. They generally say that they could work from anywhere, so I assume that their role is international and they serve a global audience, but just happened to end up in China for some reason originally and have just stayed here since, Beijing and Shanghai not being bad cities if you can afford them.

While many of them seem to know Chinese (at least those that aren't from the US, Canada, Australia, the UK and NZ), I don't believe that it is important for their jobs.

[SlickyBoy]

I second the notion that ESL work is not where you want to be, post 30ish. Its a fun way to smash a lot of asian poon when you're young but there's zero future in it.

Find a skill that is in demand, get good at it and get hired by a company where you are from who needs to send someone abroad.

Remember though that with Singapore the expat packages are not what they used to be; ditto for HK. And with HK, yes it's changing fast. Increasingly you need to be a Chinese speaker, but it can still be done with the right sponsor.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

(03-17-2015 11:50 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

I second the notion that ESL work is not where you want to be, post 30ish. Its a fun way to smash a lot of asian poon when you're young but there's zero future in it.

What leads you to say that? I don't know anything about the industry but don't these teachers have a chance at progressing through the ''ranks''? Is there absolutely no chance of being promoted?

[Bushido]

Let's not knock teaching too much. Saying there is "no future" in it is a bit excessive and misleading. It's a massive and growing industry that isn't going to disappear.

If you actually take teaching seriously (unlike 99% of English "teachers" in Asia) then there are lots of options. You can study for more qualifications later on and it can definitely become a viable career.

Not my cup of tea, but guys out there have made it work. I know a few. They became real teachers, not English speaking monkeys. University gigs and permanent high school placements make for very cushy jobs for example. Decent pay, job security and short hours.

[TheBulldozer]

(03-18-2015 08:01 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

Let's not knock teaching too much. Saying there is "no future" in it is a bit excessive and misleading. It's a massive and growing industry that isn't going to disappear.

If you actually take teaching seriously (unlike 99% of English "teachers" in Asia) then there are lots of options. You can study for more qualifications later on and it can definitely become a viable career.

Not my cup of tea, but guys out there have made it work. I know a few. They became real teachers, not English speaking monkeys. University gigs and permanent high school placements make for very cushy jobs for example. Decent pay, job security and short hours.

An international teacher, teaching a version of a Western curriculum at a top tier school is a very lucrative gig.

The salary and living arrangements alone are generally far beyond what you could obtain in your home country with a similar job. Never mind the cost of living and 15 weeks vacation each year. Your ability to network in among wealthy expats and tutor or coach sport for an outrageous sum of money is factored in as well.

Not to mention, the relationship you develop with children is one that keeps you young.

I'm not kidding in the least when I say I have the greatest job in the world.

[Suits]

(03-18-2015 01:20 AM)Porfirio Rubirosa Wrote:  

(03-17-2015 11:50 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

I second the notion that ESL work is not where you want to be, post 30ish. Its a fun way to smash a lot of asian poon when you're young but there's zero future in it.

What leads you to say that? I don't know anything about the industry but don't these teachers have a chance at progressing through the ''ranks''? Is there absolutely no chance of being promoted?

A typical job is with a Chinese company. There are few exceptions to this. The odd foreigner gets a school going legally, but these companies are rare.

In a Chinese company or school, the management is almost exclusively Chinese. It'll typically be composed of people who have no ability to related with or manage the foreigners that are supposed to report to them, but consider themselves superior the everyone who works under them.

In a hilarious twist of irony, these "managers" earn far less than the foreign teachers who work under them. Significantly less.

The ownerships at most schools is barely able to stay afloat financially, because they suck at business decisions. Some do OK by simply syphoning off any profits and investing as little as possible back into the school, but it's hard to call them winners so much as survivors.

Most Western teachers don't earn enough to pay for a lifestyle comparable to what they would back home.

There are few winners in this industry and there's nowhere to go as far as promotion is concerned.

Outside of essentially running your own business, either in reality or in spirit, there is no "moving up."

There are some nice gigs one can come by, especially if one is a Western certified teacher, but those positions are the exception.

[Cyclone]

(03-12-2015 06:58 PM)KonstantinAbroad Wrote:  

there are many good ideas and great answers in this tread.

The idea with making a master at one of the better asian universities is also not a bad one however I'm more or less unsure if it would be really worth the money and also acknowledged outside of Asia.

Maybe there is someone here on this forum who currently studies in an Asian country and could share his experience on that topic?

I applied for a research degree at NUS (Singapore) from Chicago and used that as a way to get my foot in the door. It was incredibly successful, and they want to keep me here indefinitely and keep throwing money at me (even after the degree). Sadly, I am trying to leave SP by this summer, but in any case shoot me a PM if interested in more.

I will tell you one thing, if you get a Master's by coursework, it'll be much harder to build a network and make connections, if you do by research it's already considered "work" and you get lots of hookups. I had to turn down a $40/hr GRE teaching job. In my opinion getting a job in SP is pretty easy. However, don't expect tons of $ to be thrown at you right off the bat.

Final note, if you do plan to teach English in Asia anywhere, always ALWAYS follow this plan: work for an institution for the first 3 months (yes, low-value deal), search for potential clients/students/parents, then wrap them all together and teach your own course to them for the big $$$. Never, ever be a slave to an institution for more than 3 months. This method is more effective in 2nd-tier cities.
.

[Fast Eddie]

(03-13-2015 10:33 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 10:25 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 04:09 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 09:46 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

So are you saying that there is absolutely no way for people to get a "professional" job in China, unless they are lucky enough to convince the Western company they already work for to send them there?

I've said this dozens of times already. Do you have a technical, in demand skill? Do you have a lot of management experience? No? Then it's a long journey, and it's uphill the entire way.

Is there anywhere in the world where you can get a "professional" job without "professional" skills?

As a rule, you can with the skills/education, but that would be for an entry level salary, which will pay for far below a Western standard of living in China.

If you want to make enough money to live well (as in not share a bed with a roommate, which is what many of my younger [20-25] friends do to survive here), you'll need enough demonstrated skills, education and experience to convince employers they'll make money spending the extra money to hire you.

So, the short answer to your question, is no.

Of course, you'll need demonstrated skills, education and experiences to get hired by Western company at a level where you have enough value to be worth sending overseas.

Until then, you get an entry level position and try to increase your value in the West until you are valuable enough to be placed in a key position in Asia that can't be filled by 10 high quality locals for the same cost.

I still think this view is overly pessimistic. For example, there are a shitload of young Europeans fresh out of university who somehow are finding gigs in Shanghai without having any Chinese language skills or previous professional experience. I met many of those peeps during my year there. How they are accomplishing this, I sadly don't know.

Or take high finance for that matter. It's actually easier for an American student at HYPS to get posted to the HK or Tokyo office of a major investment bank than the NYC office, even though the vast majority of those kids speak no Asian languages and have had zero exposure to Asia prior to their assignment.

Of course, nobody in this thread has a chance in hell of getting into investment banking but the point is this: it's not always about tangible, hard skillsets that you bring to the table and the company doing a cost-benefit analysis before assigning you to a role/location. You really think Goldman Sachs recruits from Harvard and Standford and pays its 22 year old analysts with History majors 80k base +80K bonus because that's the only way those excel spreadsheets are going to get filled out? Hell no. They're investing in people because they only want the cream of the crop to work for their firm. If you can convince someone that YOU are worth investing in then you too can get hired in Asia for a decent salary and given a meaningful role, even if on the surface you have no skills or experience that would seem to justify it.

Ironically, it's often the limited, highly specific functions like "accountant" or "quality improvement engineer" that require the hard sell of having X years of experience doing YZ things. With those kinds of roles you're right, you're not going to get the job unless you've got the exact combination of skills and experience the job requires. But a lot of roles that have more potential for advancement to elite status, like management consulting, for example, don't require any specific skillset. They just want high quality individuals who are comfortable being put in the hot seat and can produce solutions and effectively deal with the client. Those kind of roles are more of a "who you are" rather than "what have you done so far" kinda thing, and they're usually the most lucrative in the long run.

[Laserspewpew]

(04-04-2015 01:36 AM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 10:33 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 10:25 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 04:09 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(03-13-2015 09:46 AM)clever alias Wrote:  

Even if you go to Peking University, nobody will give a shit. OPs state school will get him farther. The only thing worth studying for is a master's in Chinese language.

Source: I went to a C-9 university for a year. The international programs are Visa farm cash cows. Everybody knows this.

I can't actually recall a single success story of someone here networking his way into a job in China, despite it being a regularly thrown around piece of advice.

So are you saying that there is absolutely no way for people to get a "professional" job in China, unless they are lucky enough to convince the Western company they already work for to send them there?

I've said this dozens of times already. Do you have a technical, in demand skill? Do you have a lot of management experience? No? Then it's a long journey, and it's uphill the entire way.

Is there anywhere in the world where you can get a "professional" job without "professional" skills?

As a rule, you can with the skills/education, but that would be for an entry level salary, which will pay for far below a Western standard of living in China.

If you want to make enough money to live well (as in not share a bed with a roommate, which is what many of my younger [20-25] friends do to survive here), you'll need enough demonstrated skills, education and experience to convince employers they'll make money spending the extra money to hire you.

So, the short answer to your question, is no.

Of course, you'll need demonstrated skills, education and experiences to get hired by Western company at a level where you have enough value to be worth sending overseas.

Until then, you get an entry level position and try to increase your value in the West until you are valuable enough to be placed in a key position in Asia that can't be filled by 10 high quality locals for the same cost.

I still think this view is overly pessimistic. For example, there are a shitload of young Europeans fresh out of university who somehow are finding gigs in Shanghai without having any Chinese language skills or previous professional experience. I met many of those peeps during my year there. How they are accomplishing this, I sadly don't know.

Or take high finance for that matter. It's actually easier for an American student at HYPS to get posted to the HK or Tokyo office of a major investment bank than the NYC office, even though the vast majority of those kids speak no Asian languages and have had zero exposure to Asia prior to their assignment.

Of course, nobody in this thread has a chance in hell of getting into investment banking but the point is this: it's not always about tangible, hard skillsets that you bring to the table and the company doing a cost-benefit analysis before assigning you to a role/location. You really think Goldman Sachs recruits from Harvard and Standford and pays its 22 year old analysts with History majors 80k base +80K bonus because that's the only way those excel spreadsheets are going to get filled out? Hell no. They're investing in people because they only want the cream of the crop to work for their firm. If you can convince someone that YOU are worth investing in then you too can get hired in Asia for a decent salary and given a meaningful role, even if on the surface you have no skills or experience that would seem to justify it.

Ironically, it's often the limited, highly specific functions like "accountant" or "quality improvement engineer" that require the hard sell of having X years of experience doing YZ things. With those kinds of roles you're right, you're not going to get the job unless you've got the exact combination of skills and experience the job requires. But a lot of roles that have more potential for advancement to elite status, like management consulting, for example, don't require any specific skillset. They just want high quality individuals who are comfortable being put in the hot seat and can produce solutions and effectively deal with the client. Those kind of roles are more of a "who you are" rather than "what have you done so far" kinda thing, and they're usually the most lucrative in the long run.

Agreed the thread is far too pessimistic. I found a good internship and a well paid professional job in China (Shenzhen and Beijing) with very little experience. I found a local company in my home town with a huge operation in China and searched for intern jobs on their site every week. I wrote glowing cover letters about why I wanted to work for them and I worked hard for my interview. When I was over there I found another job very easily through networking with the people I had made friends with. Not BS business card swapping (which I did a lot of and was no help), people I actually spent a lot of time with helped me. Choose your friends wisely when you are over there. I often dip my feet into the job market in China and there is always professional jobs going with western companies that don't require 10-20 years experience. It's mostly mid sized companies who have China operations and need somebody on the ground who they can trust.

[WanderingSoul]

(04-04-2015 06:22 AM)Laserspewpew Wrote:  

Agreed the thread is far too pessimistic. I found a good internship and a well paid professional job in China (Shenzhen and Beijing) with very little experience. I found a local company in my home town with a huge operation in China and searched for intern jobs on their site every week. I wrote glowing cover letters about why I wanted to work for them and I worked hard for my interview. When I was over there I found another job very easily through networking with the people I had made friends with. Not BS business card swapping (which I did a lot of and was no help), people I actually spent a lot of time with helped me. Choose your friends wisely when you are over there. I often dip my feet into the job market in China and there is always professional jobs going with western companies that don't require 10-20 years experience. It's mostly mid sized companies who have China operations and need somebody on the ground who they can trust.

For those of us who were being "pessimistic", I believe most of us said that the best way to go about it is to do exactly what you did, find a company in your home country that is hiring for positions in Asia.

I'll bet that's how the young Euro grads in the post above did it as well.

[Fast Eddie]

So last week I began doing probably the most ineffectual exercise in the world: submitting online job applications. Not only that, but I've been applying for jobs based in China/HK while I am still here in the US. I think I've put in 3 apps so far. If you had asked me how likely I thought it is that something would result from this I'd have put the probability at near 0, especially as I made it clear in my cover letters that I'm working out of the US at this time.

Amazingly, I received an email earlier today inviting me for a phone interview. It's for an associate level position at the advisory practice of one of the Big 4 financial services firms (Deloitte, PWC, etc) based in HK. I'm at analyst level in my current firm so this would represent a solid step up the career ladder in addition (and more importantly) to being posted to Asia.

I'm not counting my chickens before they're hatched, but just wanted to throw this anecdote out there to say that submitting online apps isn't always a complete waste of time, especially if you have no connections or other "ins."

Goddamn, if this works out it'd be hella sweet!