[worldtraveler3]

why are people painting a negative view of the job market for foreigners in asia?

[Suits]

(03-06-2015 07:33 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Suits sounds like he has a much better gig than the large majority of ESL teachers in BKK.

I have a much better gig than the large majority of ESL teachers in China.

There are inexperienced teachers earning about $20K USD per year working exhausting 40 hour weeks at kindergartens here in the capital. I took a kindergarten job (briefly) at a place that prided itself in being the best in Beijing, but had roughly 40 hour work weeks and expected its teachers to spend a lot of time on the weekend preparing full lesson plans.

I was offered $30K USD to work there through an agency. I can only hope that teachers hired directly got better money. I quit after three weeks and never collected a paycheck because the rate of pay didn't come anywhere near the amount of time, energy and stress required.

The top paying advertised jobs for ESL positions pay $38338 USD annually. I've applied for these and been rejected with no explanation, other than that I'm not qualified enough. Competition must be stiff, because most places I approach are very impressed with my experience and skills. A lot of people simply don't last very many years doing ESL here, so it's not hard to be highly qualified. If I can't get these top paying jobs with my experience, no noobie is. Ironically, if they follow my system, they can make a lot more, probably within a year of arriving.

The only way to make serious money (teaching English) in Beijing, or I assume in BKK, is to essentially represent yourself. You have to see yourself as your own employer and view those who hire you as clients, not bosses.

You carefully select the right clients so that you put together an optimal schedule that represents the best money for the minimum amount of effort, time and stress.

[KonstantinAbroad]

(03-06-2015 07:47 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

why are people painting a negative view of the job market for foreigners in asia?

Hey worldtraveler,

what are you thoughts on the job market in Asia for a fresh graduate who is willing to leave his country and looking for a job over there ^^?


By the way i would be curious to know if anyone knows something in regard to the job market in Taiwan ( Taipei)?

How hard is it to find decent work in Taiwan if you just possesses mediocre chinese language skills? I have heared that Taipei is quite developed and that rents aren't that expensive as they are in Singapore or Hong Kong.

[Suits]

(03-06-2015 07:47 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

why are people painting a negative realistic view of the job market for foreigners in asia?

Fixed that for you.

[WanderingSoul]

(03-06-2015 07:47 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

why are people painting a negative view of the job market for foreigners in asia?

Why are you adding a useless one sentence reply to a thread filled with on the ground info?

If you think the job market in BKK is different than I described then please, share something other than one useless comment.

[worldtraveler3]

alright.

here is the info which i have gathered having had some interviews and talked to some job recruiters in Hong Kong. (not BKK)

Overall the work visa situation is not that difficult. Most big companies were willing to sponsor for the visa, provided you have met the adequate qualifications for the job. I talked to a company that was expanding their business in Hong Kong, hence needed extra staff.

You actually do not need to speak the local language, (not sure about thailand). The recruiter i talked to is actually based in Australia somehow.

Being a graduate anywhere in the world is gonna get you base level pay, (you will be lucky if you get the job in the first place). You got nothing proven, why should someone trust you?

I agree, Asia nowdays isn't like in the past where it was easy times for everyone.

[elcidcampeador]

Did the OP mention what field he wants to get into? International business seems kind of vague, does it have a concentration like finance? What kind of internship in HK/Shenzhen?

I worked in HK directly out of college with a bank when they had committed to me and didn't have space in NYC.

I have American friends working in Singapore and Tokyo for Citi and Goldman, both hires from the US.

To get hired at a big branded company, it's essentially a prerequisite to have a 'branded' internship. Paying to get placed with some random company in Shenzhen for an internship isn't going to get you hired.

[Suits]

(03-06-2015 08:56 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

alright.

here is the info which i have gathered having had some interviews and talked to some job recruiters in Hong Kong. (not BKK)

Overall the work visa situation is not that difficult. Most big companies were willing to sponsor for the visa, provided you have met the adequate qualifications for the job. I talked to a company that was expanding their business in Hong Kong, hence needed extra staff.

You actually do not need to speak the local language, (not sure about thailand). The recruiter i talked to is actually based in Australia somehow.

Being a graduate anywhere in the world is gonna get you base level pay, (you will be lucky if you get the job in the first place). You got nothing proven, why should someone trust you?

I agree, Asia nowdays isn't like in the past where it was easy times for everyone.

[TheBulldozer]

(03-06-2015 08:56 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

alright.

here is the info which i have gathered having had some interviews and talked to some job recruiters in Hong Kong. (not BKK)

Overall the work visa situation is not that difficult. Most big companies were willing to sponsor for the visa, provided you have met the adequate qualifications for the job. I talked to a company that was expanding their business in Hong Kong, hence needed extra staff.

You actually do not need to speak the local language, (not sure about thailand). The recruiter i talked to is actually based in Australia somehow.

Being a graduate anywhere in the world is gonna get you base level pay, (you will be lucky if you get the job in the first place). You got nothing proven, why should someone trust you?

I agree, Asia nowdays isn't like in the past where it was easy times for everyone.

Do you live in Asia?

[worldtraveler3]

(03-06-2015 09:49 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 08:56 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

alright.

here is the info which i have gathered having had some interviews and talked to some job recruiters in Hong Kong. (not BKK)

Overall the work visa situation is not that difficult. Most big companies were willing to sponsor for the visa, provided you have met the adequate qualifications for the job. I talked to a company that was expanding their business in Hong Kong, hence needed extra staff.

You actually do not need to speak the local language, (not sure about thailand). The recruiter i talked to is actually based in Australia somehow.

Being a graduate anywhere in the world is gonna get you base level pay, (you will be lucky if you get the job in the first place). You got nothing proven, why should someone trust you?

I agree, Asia nowdays isn't like in the past where it was easy times for everyone.

Do you live in Asia?

yes, and i am proactively looking for a job in asia.
thats why i am in interested in the topic.

[Suits]

(03-06-2015 10:36 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 09:49 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 08:56 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

alright.

here is the info which i have gathered having had some interviews and talked to some job recruiters in Hong Kong. (not BKK)

Overall the work visa situation is not that difficult. Most big companies were willing to sponsor for the visa, provided you have met the adequate qualifications for the job. I talked to a company that was expanding their business in Hong Kong, hence needed extra staff.

You actually do not need to speak the local language, (not sure about thailand). The recruiter i talked to is actually based in Australia somehow.

Being a graduate anywhere in the world is gonna get you base level pay, (you will be lucky if you get the job in the first place). You got nothing proven, why should someone trust you?

I agree, Asia nowdays isn't like in the past where it was easy times for everyone.

Do you live in Asia?

yes, and i am proactively looking for a job in asia.
thats why i am in interested in the topic.

How long have you been looking?

[TheBulldozer]

(03-06-2015 10:36 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 09:49 AM)MaleDefined Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 08:56 AM)worldtraveler3 Wrote:  

alright.

here is the info which i have gathered having had some interviews and talked to some job recruiters in Hong Kong. (not BKK)

Overall the work visa situation is not that difficult. Most big companies were willing to sponsor for the visa, provided you have met the adequate qualifications for the job. I talked to a company that was expanding their business in Hong Kong, hence needed extra staff.

You actually do not need to speak the local language, (not sure about thailand). The recruiter i talked to is actually based in Australia somehow.

Being a graduate anywhere in the world is gonna get you base level pay, (you will be lucky if you get the job in the first place). You got nothing proven, why should someone trust you?

I agree, Asia nowdays isn't like in the past where it was easy times for everyone.

Do you live in Asia?

yes, and i am proactively looking for a job in asia.
thats why i am in interested in the topic.

So wait a second. You don't actually have a job in Asia and you're giving advice to another person interested in the topic?



C'mon dude.

[Buster]

@KonstantinAbroad
If you don't have one, you should get a TEFL certification before you leave the states if you plan to teach English. Suits is very much on point, listen closely to his advice. As an engineering manager, I have been through the process of hiring many fresh graduates and the saying is "hire them quickly while they still know everything." It usually takes 2-3 years before they earned their keep and at that point, they could leave easily for a pay bump. Many looked really good on paper, couldn't function well in a working environment, but had great talent solving academic problems. Business isn't solving problems you practiced in college, it is company specific. It always worked better for me to steal someone's trained engineer and provide him a more interesting work environment..... As said above, do what you enjoy and you will never "work" a day in your life.

[aguasin]

I think my results speak for themselves. Asia is over-saturated.

I applied for over 100 jobs in a 6 month period, Asia wide (think Thailand, China, Singapore, Malaysia) and didn't get one bite.
I came to Europe, applied for 50 jobs, spent 2 months applying for jobs and had 15 interviews and ended up getting a job.

Focused on the IT job market in both regions.

FYI: I relocated to each region whilst applying for jobs to make myself look more serious, and I'm not an EU citizen, so they had to jump through hoops to hire me too.

Edit: I just wanted to add some anecdotal evidence relevant to China -
Please bear in mind I'm talking about Career focused jobs here, not being a English teacher! (No offence intended if that is your career)
You have Chinese people who come to the English speaking world to get a PhD because back home, without a PhD, they won't get a job... Why? Because the job market is so competitive; these worlds come from two Chinese friends I had while at University.

[clever alias]

They don't get jobs in China because Chinese universities are a joke.

[Fast Eddie]

Interesting thread. I am about to quit a quite decent management consulting gig in the USA to make a move back to China with exactly the same goal as the OP.

As bit of background, I was actually already in China working as a test prep instructor right after graduating college. My goal at the time was to somehow "break in" into a real company/industry while I had my boots on the ground. As it happened, I got an offer from my current employer to work in the US not long after my arrival in China that I accepted, which kind of took the wind out of my sails as far as knocking on doors and networking was concerned.

As a word of warning about getting onboarded by a western company in the West and then hoping to get seconded to Asia: it may very well not happen. When I had my final interview, with the VP of my practice, I was in China at the time and told the VP as much. He asked wtf I'm doing there and I told him that I had a strong interest in the APAC region and my medium term goal was to make a career out of that part of the world. He said he was impressed with my ballsiness of actually putting my money where my mouth is by independently making my way to China after college, and said (without any soliciting from me) he'd look into moving me to an Asia office once I've had a few months experience in the US. Needless to say, nearly 2 years later I'm still in the US and the email I sent out a few months ago to the effect that I'm still interested in an APAC posting and am willing to be flexible with regards to taxation and compensation was completely ignored

When I get my annual bonus sometime this month I'm going to put in my two weeks and apply for a Chinese visa. I've had a decent salary these past 18 months or so but I've been paying down student loans and so haven't been able to save as much as I'd have liked. Still, I'll have nearly 30k once that bonus comes so putting food on the table will not be a problem for a while.

My plan this time around is to not give a shit about money, and try to find a job where I have real responsibility or alternately at a company with an amazing brand name (MBB consultancies, any BB bank, etc) regardless of the pay. it's all about making connections and building my resume at this point. Somebody here had a sig "opportunities multiply as they are seized" and that is exactly my mindset. As long as the job builds up my skillset and value, I'll even work it for free. Hell, I can easily pay for rent/food with some part time test prep work on the weekends.

On that last point: if you are going to do teaching in China to tide you over while looking for something better, I highly recommend you try to find test prep gigs. They pay a lot better than vanilla English teaching, which any retard can do. TBH, any retard can do test prep, but at least you need to have credentials above and beyond the right passport. I killed the SAT in high school and that's basically all I needed to land an RMB 18k/month gig in Shanghai with no TEFL bullshit or teaching certs. If you didn't do that well back in the day, go ahead and take the SAT now, chances are you can do a lot better compared to when you were an idiot kid.

To wit, one thing I immediately realized is that the money is in part time work. That 18k was for a full 40hrs/week with the usual shitty weekend/evening hours and generally whack schedule. One of my colleagues worked part time and only came in during the hours he actually had class, and got paid 300RMB/hour. On the days he would come in, he usually taught 3 hours, so that's 900RMB or $150 for that one 3 hour session. You can do the math yourself but the point is, you don't need many such sessions per month to cover your rent and food for that month, leaving you time and energy to focus on getting that real gig or doing your hustle as the case may be. Of course, the real money is if you can get your own clients. I was ad hoc told one day to start meeting this one HS age American bitch at a coffee shop to help her with math. I learned the company I worked for was getting 800RMB/hour of my time since I was meeting this girl where it was convenient for her.


At any rate, I guess I will end this long ass post by saying that I agree with Rio Nomad and Suits. I have 2 years of good work experience, money in the bank, and a willingness to ignore salary when looking for opportunities but I still think I'll be facing a very uphill struggle to get anything decent. But shit, one thing this long exile in the US has made me realize, it will be worth it.

[Chula1234]

Hi, great thread!

Being in a similar situation as you (going to graduate with my Bachelors in afew months), I currently have the opportunity to go to Jakarta, Indonesia which I consider to be a very promising business landscape. I am happy to share in-depth insights via PM as further information regarding my job prospect would identify me almost immediately.

It is great that you have already had the opportunity to intern for a longer period of time in SZ and HK. Below, I would like to point out some key findings that I deem to be most relevant when looking for jobs in SEA (+ Far East Asia). Please note that these inputs not necessarily refer to HK and SG, as the job markets within these hubs tend to vary significantly from other areas in Asia. Thus, what I think is:

- If you wan't to score a great job (which surely is possible, hint: look at rising demands for some key industries in SEA), you will have higher probability to do so by being send over by a US-based MNE (are you American?)
- Focus on countries that have had some exposure to Western culture & language making it easier for you to adapt, i.e. Philippines is easier to culturally accommodate to than China
- Research Macroeconomic trends that might further boost the markets. Key insights based on your research enable you to specialize and gain competitive advantage
- Especially in SEA and Far East, networking is key and is widely practiced among different industries and within a variety of hierarchical levels. I strongly advice you to follow up on networking as much as possible.
- If possible, do not go into education as I believe that it's pretty hard to move out of that industry given the negative connotation that some English teachers in Asia have

These were just a few bullets and I'm happy to connect anytime! As I have had the chance to live in Asia, Moscow, the US, South America and some European cities, I think I gained some experience on a multilateral level even though I'm not considerably older than 20. A last advice: If you really aim to pursue a long-term career in SEA or the Far East, I would most definitely encourage you to check out some of the Master's Programms offered by Chinese unis. Especially a degree from Tsinghua, Tongji, PKU or HKUST and CUHK would get you very far. Some friends are currently pursuing a degree within these institutions and it has been amazing what I heard so far regarding job prospects and intellectual stimulus within studies.

Cheers

[Veni Vidi Pimpi]

I lived in China for a while and speak near fluent Mandarin (actually read/write better than speak now). I haven't been over in China for a few years since I was in other locales (Brazil, Europe) since then but here is my advice that I experienced myself and got from a German expat I became pals with.

1) If you want to job hunt, get away from the foreigner meccas of HK, SZ, GZ, BJ, SH. They are oversaturated with laowai and their growth has actually slowed relative to the rest of the country. If you want to find somewhere you have a higher value, start in second tier cities. In the south, that could be Changsha, Kunnan, or Wuhan. Elsewhere I would recommend Chengdu, Chongqing, Ningbo, Dalian, or Xi'An. Tianjin may still be an option as well. If you are really adventurous, cities like Nanning in Guangxi, Ningxia in Lanzhou, or Guiyang in Guizhou could work too. Here is the thing though: you need to balance between a smaller metropolis but nothing too 'redneck' or they will see your foreigner face and automatically eliminate you.

Smaller cities have trouble attracting non-local talent and have many up and coming business opportunities filled in the bigger cities. Many opportunities can be found and things are much cheaper!

2) I agree generally with the idea of finding a multinational company from your home country to sponsor you but to be honest, the heyday of that was roughly 1994-2005 or so. Nowadays, most MNCs are looking to save costs and 'localize' by hiring talented locals (who often hop around for better salaries in a competitive market) or Chinese who studied in the west and are returning home (the 'sea turtles'). As a Westerner, you are expensive and with the Chinese economy slowing to 'only' 7% growth or so a year, the time of them splurging money on expats is limited. The exception is high-level expats with very specific and decades long experience in a crucial area. Something by your age you aren't going to qualify for.

3) Teaching English isn't bad, but it is overcrowded with all kinds of adventure seekers with varying quality. It will be hard to stand out the way things are nowadays.

4) I would suggest developing an expertise in a very important, yet niche industry. If you can get 'certified' or gain some experience that helps. Generally knowing business and speaking Chinese are necessary, but not sufficient, to be competitive now.

5) If I were back there now, two ideas I had were helping importers from developing countries (Africa, Middle East, Latin America) source quality goods. Those are big and growing markets for Chinese exports but typically don't have the large, sophisticated corporations of US, EU, or East Asia. Doing good supply chain and logistics and working with vetting Chinese suppliers could be valuable. Setting up businesses to serve these people while they are in China could be lucrative too. Not the 'traditional' China job but is something Chinese may not be as good at and you could offer some sophistication.

[clever alias]

Do not enroll in a Chinese university for a Master's degree. They are complete jokes and nobody will take the degree seriously.

[dogthom]

Could the OP get another internship in Asia and branch out from there. Even an unpaid internship?

ESL is by far the easiest way into Asia since the standards are so low, but don't underestimate the negative stigma and stereotype that goes with being an English teacher, and the impact that could have on trying to transition into a professional job.

I have a lot of teacher friends and they're nice people most of them, but to be honest it's not a respected position.

There's a bit of a "loser back home" stereotype.

Sometimes that stereotype is warranted since some of the biggest slackers, freaks and social oddballs I've ever met in my life were English teachers in Asia.

But sometimes it's not fair since I've met a few teachers who were really on the ball. Their biggest handicap in life is that they have no marketable skills since not many employers care about your ability to wax poetic about 19th century French history with your shiny new BA.

But if you like teaching, my advice would be to marry a local and start your own school. I've known a couple guys who own their own schools and they've made quite a bit of money.

[KonstantinAbroad]

Hey guys,

there are many good ideas and great answers in this tread.

The idea with making a master at one of the better asian universities is also not a bad one however I'm more or less unsure if it would be really worth the money and also acknowledged outside of Asia.

Maybe there is someone here on this forum who currently studies in an Asian country and could share his experience on that topic?

Moreover i also agree with the fact that teaching english is not a long term solution however it could be a start from where you could go of course.

[CJ_W]

(03-05-2015 03:32 AM)azulsombra Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 02:59 AM)dogthom Wrote:  

Aim for a location independent job. That's what I do.

I don't know about your field, but why would anyone hire you when there are large numbers of locals who could easily do the same job for less money and probably less hassle?

There's always ESL, but that's a go no where job unless you plan to start your own school.

Can you elaborate on this?

learning Copywriting, starting an online mobile business (google Tropical MBA), consulting(Buy the book, Million Dollar consulting) Modelling, (a lot of Asian countries are looking for foreigners for commercials and stuff.)


If thats not enough, a simple search will help you out.

[clever alias]

(03-12-2015 06:58 PM)KonstantinAbroad Wrote:  

Hey guys,

there are many good ideas and great answers in this tread.

The idea with making a master at one of the better asian universities is also not a bad one however I'm more or less unsure if it would be really worth the money and also acknowledged outside of Asia.

Maybe there is someone here on this forum who currently studies in an Asian country and could share his experience on that topic?

Moreover i also agree with the fact that teaching english is not a long term solution however it could be a start from where you could go of course.

Pretty sure the comment or two above this one deals with my thoughts on the matter.

[atlant]

(03-08-2015 07:24 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

Do not enroll in a Chinese university for a Master's degree. They are complete jokes and nobody will take the degree seriously.

Tsinghua and the top HK unis are very well respected and rank better than most US and European universities. Only pointless if you don't want to work in Asia which is basically the opposite of what this thread is about.

[clever alias]

(03-12-2015 11:51 PM)atlant Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 07:24 PM)clever alias Wrote:  

Do not enroll in a Chinese university for a Master's degree. They are complete jokes and nobody will take the degree seriously.

Tsinghua and the top HK unis are very well respected and rank better than most US and European universities. Only pointless if you don't want to work in Asia which is basically the opposite of what this thread is about.

It's common knowledge that the quality of education is vastly inferior: it's impossible to fail out, it's complete wrote memorization, and literally zero academic honesty is expected. Even published research by Chinese professors rarely gets anywhere it's such a rampant issue.

And then to top it off, you're talking about the international version of the degree, which is less rigorous because it's about making money.