[Samseau]

(12-05-2014 07:14 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

So I met a girl in a club and very early she tells me what she wants:

"I want a serious relationship that has a future to it."

There was no ambiguity in her statement and she seemed quite sincere. If I was in Ukraine, I would have taken her literally and put out more of a provider game, but the past week or so I'm really questioning statements like this. So I ignored it completely and went full caveman. We were fucking within 4 hours, some porn star level shit.

If I accepted her statement at face value, I wouldn't have gotten anything, and then I would have wondered why since I was doing what she claimed she wanted.

I don't think you can possibly ask for feedback from a girl and expect actionable advice on how to game her unless she is hyper self-aware or very traditional. You just must apply a default game that works most of the time, and that game should be being a sexy, high-value man that she wants to fuck. Anytime I tried to change that up, I was disappointed.

Yes, and this was in Europe? No question that the behavior of women saying one thing and doing another is just part of their innate nature - i.e. huge fucking liars or simply dumb animals that cannot understand themselves.

[Roosh]

Quote:

Yes, and this was in Europe?

Yes

[Dalaran1991]

Been having quite some introspective discussions with Onto and JJG on this issues. Now I had to ask myself the question: You DID bang the girl. Do you know why?

It is very natural for us guys to rationalize our success and attribute it to certain factors, just like women like to backward rationalize things. You can say "I used this line/this technique on her and she was totally hooked" but is that really the truth? Sometimes Im perfectly in "the zone" and spitting my best lines and I cant hook, and a few other times I didn't even do anything other than "hey I'm thirsty lets go grab a beer" and I end up with a SNL.

My point is that we can have a default game with a good rate of success but sometimes its just hard to trace success OR failure back to any factor(s) This is why game is and always will be a number's game.

I'm not sure if any of you had received feedback from girls that ACTUALLY help your game. Every time I tried to take in advice from girls, even red pill girls, I end up getting betatized. If the girl like you they will not tell you why it didnt work because they dont want to "hurt" you. If she doesnt like you she will give you false advice plastered with negative emotions. That, and in the end whatever a girl says or does is ALL about her and nothing about you.

Another thing to factor in is that, dont think for a second girls are not gaming or counter-gaming you. This is a game or a war, depending on how you think and most of the time we are playing against someone with more experience. With enough experience I think you can react/calibrate but I found myself at the receiving end of girl's game more often than not that fucked up my own game. "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face" lol

I ve had so many instances of tearing my hair out when the girl suddenly goes colder than Mr.Freeze ass after being the most intimate lover just a night before. If this is how women are supposed to act then there's no way we can ever know "why".

[MrRoundtree]

Lately I was gaming a super hot 10 french girl at the bar, we danced a lot, we didn't make out there. She mentionned a boyfriend, she grabbed my crotch..she left. She added me on facebook, I received sexy pictures from her in lingerie. She is in my 1 year in europe thread, the girl is a 10 no doubt about it, bodywise and face wise. I never had a girl this sexy with me before.

There are two problems: the boyfriend and the fact she lives 1 hours away from Lille

Last wednesday we met up outside, she was super perfumed. She was supposed to stay the night and we were supposed to have something to eat and I assume everything would get super smoothly. Before she drove to meet me she said she is now working at 7 am the next morning and can't stay late, she has to go to her brother too. I stayed smooth and told her we will go to my place early...when she arrived she reached for my arm we walked around to get tobacco I overheard she thought I wanted to go to the apartment first but I told her I havent eaten and needed something to eat. We went to get pizza, we went to my place..by the window we were in smoking together she got close and we made out. After that I went to get two beers and we watched pictures of us with music on my laptop, I was kinoing her and then we made out again and when we finished her beers she said she had to go to her brother and drive back because of the work.


This is when things went bad, I tried to convince her to stay and we kissed somewhat again and I was holding her...but she said she had to leave lol..we kissed on the way back but the last kiss was pretty akward...

My theories on where I missed the bang

1. First instead of walking to get something to eat, should have went straight to the apartment I think to bang..I think if she kissed me at my place and grabbed my dick in the club (from outside the pants in the bar) she was either a very slutty girl but not DTF or her boyfriend cheated on her and she wanted to get that done ASAP and I wasted too much time.
2. She was down for the 2nd meeting but I blew it up by insisting too much before she left (but she told me she was going to get back to Lille after New Years)
3. She was never down to begin with and just wanted a Québécois friend

[bigbait]

(12-09-2014 12:17 PM)MrRoundtree Wrote:  

1. First instead of walking to get something to eat, should have went straight to the apartment I think to bang..I think if she kissed me at my place and grabbed my dick in the club (from outside the pants in the bar) she was either a very slutty girl but not DTF or her boyfriend cheated on her and she wanted to get that done ASAP and I wasted too much time.

I think this. In my experience in a one on one date when a girl gives a time constraint it is often a big hint to us. She knows you are in charge of the logistics and deciding what you want to do, so she is just saying "fyi this is the amount of time you have to do what you want". Often enough I miss this cue because I am so pigheaded that I just proceed and do what i originally planned. Usually the girl basically says (not in so many words of course) that it is my own fault that I decided i wanted to eat instead of fool around.

[JayJuanGee]

(12-09-2014 03:26 PM)bigbait Wrote:  

(12-09-2014 12:17 PM)MrRoundtree Wrote:  

1. First instead of walking to get something to eat, should have went straight to the apartment I think to bang..I think if she kissed me at my place and grabbed my dick in the club (from outside the pants in the bar) she was either a very slutty girl but not DTF or her boyfriend cheated on her and she wanted to get that done ASAP and I wasted too much time.

I think this. In my experience in a one on one date when a girl gives a time constraint it is often a big hint to us. She knows you are in charge of the logistics and deciding what you want to do, so she is just saying "fyi this is the amount of time you have to do what you want". Often enough I miss this cue because I am so pigheaded that I just proceed and do what i originally planned. Usually the girl basically says (not in so many words of course) that it is my own fault that I decided i wanted to eat instead of fool around.

That's a great way of phrasing the situation.

I have a girl friend who constantly gives timelines when we meet, but she wants to play innocent, so she plans various kinds of innocuous activities for us during the time line because she is really opposed to the idea of scheduling sex. Frequently, our innocuous activity includes things that we both like, such as dancing or eating or some kind of exercise activity or hiking or attending some kind of party event. Accordingly, let's say that we have 4 hours to meet - which is certainly enough time to fit in banging.

If I were to allow her total control, she would attempt to engage in other non-sex activities for 3 or more of our scheduled hours - actually she may only allow for 15 minutes or so for "bonding" activities, which would make it really cramped, rushed and stressful to attempt to have sex during that final short period.

She is NOT opposed to sex, just opposed to the idea of non-spontaneity scheduling of sex (because in part she says that it makes her feel like "a piece of meat.").

Accordingly, when we plan our meetings, she is usually in a pretty decent mood, and I purposefully have to NOT screw up her mood during our non-sex activity(ies) and engage in kino and escalate various physicality to keep her mood and then also to purposefully re-allocate a much more sufficient amount of time for our sex portion. This girl goes along with all of the revisions, and she is even more cooperative, if I just make the various changes as we go along and I do NOT ask for permission in any kind of way.. if I were to ask for permission, then she would revert to the innocent schedule and we would never have sex.

Actually, there are times in which I have to force parts of the schedule by saying, we are NOW discontinuing with x activity and moving towards "y" activity or "bonding time" or something like that. But, bigbait, you are correct that if we get to the end of the time, and we do NOT have sufficient time, she just begins to dry up and prepares to leave and does leave.. then I am left high and dry.

[JayJuanGee]

(12-09-2014 10:46 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Been having quite some introspective discussions with Onto and JJG on this issues. Now I had to ask myself the question: You DID bang the girl. Do you know why?

It is very natural for us guys to rationalize our success and attribute it to certain factors, just like women like to backward rationalize things. You can say "I used this line/this technique on her and she was totally hooked" but is that really the truth? Sometimes Im perfectly in "the zone" and spitting my best lines and I cant hook, and a few other times I didn't even do anything other than "hey I'm thirsty lets go grab a beer" and I end up with a SNL.

My point is that we can have a default game with a good rate of success but sometimes its just hard to trace success OR failure back to any factor(s) This is why game is and always will be a number's game.

I'm not sure if any of you had received feedback from girls that ACTUALLY help your game. Every time I tried to take in advice from girls, even red pill girls, I end up getting betatized. If the girl like you they will not tell you why it didnt work because they dont want to "hurt" you. If she doesnt like you she will give you false advice plastered with negative emotions. That, and in the end whatever a girl says or does is ALL about her and nothing about you.

Another thing to factor in is that, dont think for a second girls are not gaming or counter-gaming you. This is a game or a war, depending on how you think and most of the time we are playing against someone with more experience. With enough experience I think you can react/calibrate but I found myself at the receiving end of girl's game more often than not that fucked up my own game. "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face" lol

I ve had so many instances of tearing my hair out when the girl suddenly goes colder than Mr.Freeze ass after being the most intimate lover just a night before. If this is how women are supposed to act then there's no way we can ever know "why".

I believe that I largely agree with all of your substantive points in the above post, and maybe I am going to say the same thing as you using different words.

Certainly, I do NOT have all the answers, but merely my experiences and my reflection on my experiences.

In my own perceptions about game and attempting to get what I want out of any situation or relationship with a girl, it seems that most times I attempt to focus a large amount on whether I am getting what I want and whether my needs are being fulfilled. I attempt to NOT become too focused on her perspective or whether she is getting what she wants or if she is attempting to manipulate me or the situation because I consider it most important what I want and what I am getting and is this whole situation good for me and is this working for me and do I have enough space, here.

Surely, the girl has to engage in some of these same kinds of surplus value calculations from her own perspective, and sometimes a guy will need to consider her perspective in order to calculate whether any tactic, strategy or proposal that he may employ could potentially be affective with her, the target girl.

If a guy believes that a girl is perceiving either high or low surplus value from the relationship may cause the guy to decide to invest more or less into the relationship.

For example, if a girl seems to express a lot of contentment in being with me, then I may take her for granted and invest less in order to feel that I can maintain her in my circle. The same (but opposite) seems to be true that if I believe a girl is perceiving that she is NOT getting value from me (surely I have to continue to work on me and what I project), I will feel that I need to invest more into the relationship in order to maintain her in my circle - yet I am only going to go so far with my investment into any girl and to calculate whether my investment is going to pay off in a bang or any other way and to calculate whether I would be investing in a potentially dead end direction. If the calculations come out bad, then I have to consider NEXTing or at least distancing myself from the relationship for a while (and maybe reassessing at a later point in time).

I suppose when I am perceiving that I have less control over the outcome of whether she wants to be around me, and I feel that the girl is setting too much of the frame of our relationship or calling too many of the shots regarding our activities, then it is time to consider NEXTing that girl - even if I believe that I am still getting some value from her.

Accordingly, if we perceive the girl is getting too much and manipulating us too much, then I suppose that we will perceive that we are being gamed by her.

In the end, it is my sense that we still need to focus on ourselves and on what we are getting and if the girl is taking too much away from us or if we are losing some of our masculinity through our relationship with this chick. Guys will come to varying calculations regarding these variables, and each of us has to decide what works for him... and is this situation working short term, medium term or even longer term or is it time to NEXT this relationship.

Feelings can be hurt on both sides during this process, and surely it has felt worse for me when I have the perception that I have little to no control over the outcome (and sometimes I get into those kinds of situations in which I have invested too much - in spite of efforts of trying to minimize such seemingly out of control situations that have got me feeling too much for the girl and concerns about reciprocity). Again, I do NOT claim to be an expert regarding handling these situations, and surely some guys are able to employ better tactics than me to have control over their level of feelings for girls when they are working on the bang or if they have failed to get the bang.

[Travesty]

@Sourcecode

Being too domineering is a form of being needy, but for control instead of attention. It shows you care too much about having control and don't assume you have control. It is a vulnerability.

Girls want you to just not care period and have fun. It's hard to be fun and domineering. When I become too domineering it is because of laziness, I don't wrap my words and actions carefully with charm.

[Ensam]

(12-09-2014 05:11 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

@Sourcecode

Being too domineering is a form of being needy, but for control instead of attention. It shows you care too much about having control and don't assume you have control. It is a vulnerability.

Girls want you to just not care period and have fun. It's hard to be fun and domineering. When I become too domineering it is because of laziness, I don't wrap my words and actions carefully with charm.

Great insight. I have a really hard time balancing having fun and going with the flow with not feeling like I'm being yanked around - which is the insecurity. I think responding with, "nah, I'm not going to do that" when I girl starts being flighty is better than trying to exert any kind of control over her.

There's also a difference between decisiveness and dominance. Almost all women love decisiveness but dominance is something you have to earn and gauge carefully.

[bigbait]

(12-09-2014 06:32 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

(12-09-2014 05:11 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

@Sourcecode

Being too domineering is a form of being needy, but for control instead of attention. It shows you care too much about having control and don't assume you have control. It is a vulnerability.

Girls want you to just not care period and have fun. It's hard to be fun and domineering. When I become too domineering it is because of laziness, I don't wrap my words and actions carefully with charm.

Great insight. I have a really hard time balancing having fun and going with the flow with not feeling like I'm being yanked around - which is the insecurity. I think responding with, "nah, I'm not going to do that" when I girl starts being flighty is better than trying to exert any kind of control over her.

There's also a difference between decisiveness and dominance. Almost all women love decisiveness but dominance is something you have to earn and gauge carefully.

Everyone has their limits and sometimes you have to say no, but a great strategy is "Yes, and ...". If the girl suggests we go to a my little pony convention I'm going to be like "Yes, that would be ridiculous, and let's just have a glass of wine at my place first (and bang)." (Clearly I would not go the convention hahaha)

[Zep]

(12-09-2014 10:46 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I ve had so many instances of tearing my hair out when the girl suddenly goes colder than Mr.Freeze ass after being the most intimate lover just a night before. If this is how women are supposed to act then there's no way we can ever know "why".

Don't you think this is some mix of fear, shame, repulsion ( towards themselves ). Intimacy can be frightening, overwhelming...if it's done fast it can freak a girl out no? If you spent a month with a girl before building familiarity and trust, then I'd be surprised if she went cold after sex. But quick sex? I can understand why a girl would freak-out.

[bigbait]

(12-10-2014 10:01 AM)Zep Wrote:  

(12-09-2014 10:46 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I ve had so many instances of tearing my hair out when the girl suddenly goes colder than Mr.Freeze ass after being the most intimate lover just a night before. If this is how women are supposed to act then there's no way we can ever know "why".

Don't you think this is some mix of fear, shame, repulsion ( towards themselves ). Intimacy can be frightening, overwhelming...if it's done fast it can freak a girl out no? If you spent a month with a girl before building familiarity and trust, then I'd be surprised if she went cold after sex. But quick sex? I can understand why a girl would freak-out.

If the girl freezes you after sex you really need to analyze your post coitus game.

If you don't want to see her again just kick her out.

If you do want to see her again release the tension and give her some intimacy, cuddle her. talk about some random shit. make her laugh

Guys on the forum always be saying "it's all about the pipe you lay", but most girls don't expect the sex to be good the first time anyway.

[Dalaran1991]

(12-10-2014 10:01 AM)Zep Wrote:  

(12-09-2014 10:46 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I ve had so many instances of tearing my hair out when the girl suddenly goes colder than Mr.Freeze ass after being the most intimate lover just a night before. If this is how women are supposed to act then there's no way we can ever know "why".

Don't you think this is some mix of fear, shame, repulsion ( towards themselves ). Intimacy can be frightening, overwhelming...if it's done fast it can freak a girl out no? If you spent a month with a girl before building familiarity and trust, then I'd be surprised if she went cold after sex. But quick sex? I can understand why a girl would freak-out.

This is interesting, but not exactly my experience. What I wanted to say is that girls can be very intimate one day and the next but leave it for a few days she's gone totally cold for no discernible reasons. My post-coitus game is good I think, cause I only really try to bang girls I really like. I cuddle, pillow talk and stuffs. Might even need to tone it down.

Last girl I took home SNL, also the prettiest, she was so intimate she couldn't get her paws or lips off me the whole night and then on the 2nd date, but I saw her again next week and she's avoiding me. I did a bit of faux-pas, but just go to show how ruthless girls are to bad game.

Also, my girlfriend just broke up with me tonight. Monday night she was still calling me "daddy" and I was fucking her brain out. Tonight she actually said "I don't want to see your face anymore". And nothing happened between Monday and today.

Roosh said "don't expect women to grieve over the good old times with you". Couldn't be truer. How are you supposed to get feedback from that kind of people?

[bigbait]

(12-10-2014 06:53 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(12-10-2014 10:01 AM)Zep Wrote:  

(12-09-2014 10:46 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I ve had so many instances of tearing my hair out when the girl suddenly goes colder than Mr.Freeze ass after being the most intimate lover just a night before. If this is how women are supposed to act then there's no way we can ever know "why".

Don't you think this is some mix of fear, shame, repulsion ( towards themselves ). Intimacy can be frightening, overwhelming...if it's done fast it can freak a girl out no? If you spent a month with a girl before building familiarity and trust, then I'd be surprised if she went cold after sex. But quick sex? I can understand why a girl would freak-out.

This is interesting, but not exactly my experience. What I wanted to say is that girls can be very intimate one day and the next but leave it for a few days she's gone totally cold for no discernible reasons. My post-coitus game is good I think, cause I only really try to bang girls I really like. I cuddle, pillow talk and stuffs. Might even need to tone it down.

Last girl I took home SNL, also the prettiest, she was so intimate she couldn't get her paws or lips off me the whole night and then on the 2nd date, but I saw her again next week and she's avoiding me. I did a bit of faux-pas, but just go to show how ruthless girls are to bad game.

Also, my girlfriend just broke up with me tonight. Monday night she was still calling me "daddy" and I was fucking her brain out. Tonight she actually said "I don't want to see your face anymore". And nothing happened between Monday and today.

Roosh said "don't expect women to grieve over the good old times with you". Couldn't be truer. How are you supposed to get feedback from that kind of people?

This is a truer statement "don't expect people that you have a transactional relationship with to grieve over the good old times with you".

Imagine you're a candy distributor and you distribute candy to 100 stores. One of the stores is constantly late on payments. You want their business but it's annoying that it's impacting your cashflow. They go out of business. Are you going to grieve over the good times?

Sexual and romantic relationships are not like friendships. People often get a lot of friendships without investing much. If you have friends you see every week or so for a drink you get to feel like you have close friends that care about you.

In sexual and romantic relationships there is a lot more ego at stake than in friendships, there is more time and emotion and planning invested, there is greater opportunity cost because of the pressure towards exclusivity. When a girl next you she is moving on so she is going to stop investing in you. She is not throwing good money after bad. She is subconsciously treating you as a sunk cost.

Think about it like this. When anyone is in any type of relationship with another person they are paying rent. Would you pay rent for a house you're not living in?

If a girl nexts me and If I wish I had real and useful feedback from her, it isn't because I want to grieve over good times. It's just because I want to be aware of options for customizing my game in the future. Does that make me "that kind of person"? Well, it does hahah but who cares, my point is that most of us are that kind of person. We are self interested. I am not trying to imply that double standards are a bad thing. I am self interested and I want girls who are not self interested. But if a girl is self interested that does not mean she is a bad person. It just means she is aware of the realities of life and that I don't want her.

I forgot to say that I think that post coitus game is something that has to be played very tightly. If you are cuddling the girl and for one second she seems uncomfortable or anxious to stop cuddling you must pull away to avoid seeming needy.

"My post-coitus game is good I think, cause I only really try to bang girls I really like". This makes it sound like you might be over doing post coitus.

[Zep]

(12-10-2014 06:53 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

What I wanted to say is that girls can be very intimate one day and the next but leave it for a few days she's gone totally cold for no discernible reasons. My post-coitus game is good I think, cause I only really try to bang girls I really like. I cuddle, pillow talk and stuffs. Might even need to tone it down.

Last girl I took home SNL, also the prettiest, she was so intimate she couldn't get her paws or lips off me the whole night and then on the 2nd date, but I saw her again next week and she's avoiding me. I did a bit of faux-pas, but just go to show how ruthless girls are to bad game.

I've been thinking about this and an old-skool Pua term popped into my mind. Buyers Remorse, I entered Buyers Remorse into Google, and the link was the first site that showed. Essentially, it's regret over an action.

A girl told me once that sex can be heavy in that she's letting you into her body. She can wake up the next morning disgusted with herself then project that onto you 'he's disgusting, he makes me feel gross'. This is more likely to happen with inexperienced ( read: young girls ) who are currently unaware of their limits and are finding out about them. From my sisters mouth "oh my god, I got drunk last night and hooked up with this guy, I can't believe I did that, and he's going to John's party tonight, I don't want to see him or talk to him, gross".
Typical Buyers Remorse.

I think most cold behavior can be read as an emotional withdrawal from the woman due to feeling disgust ( shame ) or feeling overwhelmed ( they let you in too close emotionally and/or physically ). Maybe the girl has other choices, especially if she's young and hot and has high sexual value...then you're being used to scratch an itch. I think most avoidant young female behavior can be written off as Buyers Remorse.

[bigbait]

I was thinking about this a little more during lunch.

This is the approach I used to bust through my last cold streak after I had trouble adjusting back from easy mode in Jakarta.

The issue with the common perspective on feedback is wanting to be told what the weaknesses with our game are.

Not every culture and not every girl is like this, but many girls are telling us what are weaknesses are, but in the opposite of the way we want.

Think about it like this: if she is not commenting on how great some aspect of you is, then it is a weakness. (Obviously there are exceptions to this. she will not tell you how cute she thinks you are if she doesn't want to seem superficial. she will not tell you how great your clothes or watch or car are if she doesn't want to seem materialistic).

Think about how fun you are. If the girl is not so dumbstruck by how much fun she's having with you that she can't help but comment on it, then guess what - you still have room to max out your funness.

Think about your comfort game. If girls are not regularly commenting on how they feel like they can say anything to you, then guess what - you still have room to max out your comfort game.

Think about your hair game. If you don't regularly get compliments from girls that they love your hair, then guess what - you still have room to max out your hair game.

[Dalaran1991]

And what if she is having a fuckawesome time with all your three boxes check and still turn ice-queen?

I'm not saying women don't give honest feedback, far from it. The problem lies in the fact that feedback from women depends entirely on their emotional state and therefore unreliable. Sure, the answer is just to "draw her into a positive emotional state" but this is very hit or miss and that's why game is largely a number's game.

Remember how Roosh said in Bang a girl said she loves his hair even though he washes it twice a week with conditioner?

I'm gonna use the last girl I took home to illustrate my point. Without too much details, met her in dance. Didn't even talk, just dance with her and she loves it. Saw her again, game her for about 2 min, then asked her out.

Quote:

Think about it like this: if she is not commenting on how great some aspect of you is, then it is a weakness. (Obviously there are exceptions to this. she will not tell you how cute she thinks you are if she doesn't want to seem superficial. she will not tell you how great your clothes or watch or car are if she doesn't want to seem materialistic).

Think about your hair game. If you don't regularly get compliments from girls that they love your hair, then guess what - you still have room to max out your hair game.

That night we went out, she commented on how she loved my jacket. "I know, that's why I wore it". After sex, she said "You are so muscular, it's hot" And "I love your mouth"

Quote:

Think about how fun you are. If the girl is not so dumbstruck by how much fun she's having with you that she can't help but comment on it, then guess what - you still have room to max out your funness.

The whole night I could see the glow on her face. When I walked into the venue and hi-5 all my friends including the DJ. When I took her from one awesome moves to another. When I make out with her as we dance and everybody was wooah. And when I took her home she couldn't stop "you have this/you did that?"

Quote:

Think about your comfort game. If girls are not regularly commenting on how they feel like they can say anything to you, then guess what - you still have room to max out your comfort game.

She asked me about my best friend, how I grew up. Told me stories about her and significant people in her life. We talked like soul mate. Philosophy, science etc. Morning I went with her to school and still make out like crazy in the subway.

Bam. Two days later, she sent me a FACEBOOK message saying she thought it was a mistake and she just broke up with her boyfriend and other BS and she didn't want to go any further. Yeah you could say it's buyer remorse, but thanks to the help here (especially Onto's) I laughed it off, maintained frame and asked her out on another date.

It worked. We gone out again as if she never sent that message. We talked more and make out so damn much at the first venue the waiter had to come and cockblocked me. She asked my opinion on a close BFF she "has never told anyone" Venue changed, make out so much again. The waiter gave us a free drink tour. DHV as fuck. Out on the streets I pin her against a wall and ravage her again. And I always had to pull away first. So buyer's remorse out of the picture. And if your post-coitus game is tight you should not have trouble with buyer's remorse.

A few days later, saw her again unexpectedly at a club and she was as cold as if I'm the most disgusting guy in the room. Any further attempt was pushed back and I had to stop before I FUBAR myself.

Assuming all her feedback was honest, and there's no reason it wouldn't be, can you really explain the whole attitude change? Granted I was a bit needy the last time I saw her, but given the comfort and attraction level she was already giving me you would think she would look past that.

I discussed some more with RVF members and come to the conclusion that sometimes you do your best and the girl just won't squeeze and you won't fucking know why. You can trace it to this and that but truthfully you will never know. Then there's probably what Onto told me "She could be considering turning lesbian/her dog die/came back to her ex/gone full retard etc."

It is impossible to know the specific why with a particular girl unless we royally fuck up something. It is however possilbe to establish patterns of what work and what not with many girls. That's how Roosh recommend we calibrate our game and I'm 100% on board. I've had many girls complimenting me on my jacket for ex. so that's my default pimping gear. But any feedback a girl give you only has value at that exact moment because of the emotional value she attributes to it. Unless you hear the same feedback again and again it's not something you should stress about. Worrying too much about specifics with particular girl and you run the risk of changing a default game that is already working

[Zep]

(12-11-2014 03:02 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Assuming all her feedback was honest, and there's no reason it wouldn't be, can you really explain the whole attitude change?

Yea..she's crazy, which usually means some kind of personality disorder, if not that, something from the list posted earlier in this thread,

Quote:

Here are some reasons-

She has a boyfriend.
She has a husband.
She has a lesbian lover.
She got drunk last night and she's hungover, not looking to talk to new people.
She is super emotional today.
She already has a fuckbuddy.
She already has 10 fuckbuddies.
She doesn't EVER have fuckbuddies.
She is a super conservative girl that doesn't have sex without being married for 4 years.
She already got fucked that day by a thick cock.
She had a bad experience from the last guy that picked her up.
Her friends are there and they will judge her.
She has to wake up early in the morning. (logistics)
She has to go home early that night.
She is on her period.
She thinks she is on her period.
She thinks she is pregnant.
She doesn't have casual sex.
She is a drug addict.
She didn't take her anti-depression medicine (welcome to Los Angeles).
She is just out for attention.
You look like her ex-boyfriend that she hates.
She doesn't think it's appropriate to meet people at _____.
She doesn't like players, she only likes nice guys and fucks them after 10 dates.
She doesn't think she looks good.
She's just a fucking weirdo at all times.
She heard a story from a friend that makes her hate guys for a week or two.
She's obsessed with some other guy.
She's obsessed with her ex-boyfriend.
She wants a boyfriend.
She doesn't know what the fuck she wants.
She had a bad day.
She's scared of guys at bars.
She's scared of guys at clubs.
She's scared of guys that talk to her during the day.
She doesn't know how to show guys that she's DTF.
Okay, some of those are far-fetched, some of those are COMPLETELY realistic and common.

No where in there did I say "you are too ugly" "you are too much of a fucking loser," I didn't say that, right?

The point is-

NONE of them are your fault.

NONE of them can you control.

I'll repeat that-

NONE of them are your fault.

NONE of them can you control."

Good luck bro.

[raywolf]

It's exactly like shooting a hand gun..... There are always going to be rounds that don't quite hit the mark. You just have to accept that. Dating is not a snipers rifle that should always hit the bull at 300m.

With my glock, I can hit the bull at 25m, 2-3-4 times out of 5, but somehow there is always one stray round out of 5. Sometimes it's sloppiness, sometimes it's tiredness, I might be snatching the trigger or trying too hard. Even when I punch 5/5, I can't always repeat it immediately and the guys I shoot with who are far better and more experienced than me, also miss the bull from time to time... It's just the way it is. You can watch Olympic shooters and archers, even they miss sometimes.

Focus on what makes you successful, not what makes you a failure. Improve your strengths, the weaknesses will always be there, but as the strengths improve the weaknesses will diminish.

Statistically 20% of all females will be on their period, although that might drop to about 10% since not all girls will go out dating if they are on the rag. Still that means you should have a natural failure rate of about 1 in 10. She's into you and goes only so far, but has to back off.

Secondly you have simple paranoia: disease and pregnancy are quite high on the radar.

A fair amount of women, have a 1st date rule, that's for certain. As with everything female the contrary answer is often the correct one... She didn't have sex with you, exactly because she was really into you and wanted something more than a ONS from you.

There are other reasons that they will avoid sex, even if they are really into you, including answering to BFFs, other social pressure, not having a good excuse to cover their tracks, serious boyfriend, personality type, religion, needing some sleep to work the next day.

That probably culls at least 80% of the girls that wouldn't go for it.... It's nothing to do with you, and nothing much you can do to change it.

The final 20% is largely circumstantial. The setting just wasn't quite right, she's tired, you're tired, too much beer, wrong food for dinner, wrong music playing, wrong program on the TV and various other libido killers.

There's probably only about 1 in 10 of the failures that you might have had success with.

[Thoroughbred]

(11-27-2014 08:16 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

I've been doing a post bang or non bang interview (learnt this from Krauser)

When you get a girl back to yours, once the sex or the sex is or isnt happening, just ask questions like 'when were you first attracted to me' 'when did you know we were gonna fuck'. You'll know where you're going right.

What are some common threads that come back to you Bojangles?

[B-Nut]

Yes we can ascertain breaking points in interactions and find the "why". ......I believe the "game" part is easy to find the breaking point. Not enough escalation, failed a frame test, too much escalation, didn't make her feel anything, etc ).... the part that everyone is left in limbo in this thread is the non game part.

Game is one part of SMV and a fraction of what makes a female decide to sleep with you. Other factors are her other available options, if she's bored, is only out for validation, if she is on vacation and feels like banging, if she just had a series of bad dates with no kissing and wants to spice it up and allow this date to go farther or if her etc etc etc

Ever wonder why a chick on a dating site will message you back and reply but with very little effort, or in rare occasions do invest and act interested) but yet won't give out her number when you ask or does give out her number but won't go on a date when you text ?? It must be your "email game" or "text game" right...why why why where did I go wrong in this interaction ?.......The answer is she was never interested in the first place. Or until the next guy that was hotter messaged her. The why in this scenario is looks.

So let's start with this baseline of looks......and let's apply this example to an in person interaction. Like online, a girl in person will be willing to invest to some degree and "message back" so to speak for awhile with you even though she just isn't interested. Your not a top 20 percent guy but just like online, you are just good enough looking to be her place c, d, or e option. And heck, if your super funny,she may stick around for longer than a little while and invest more and why heck, maybe even kiss you. But you know what ? That simple fact remains,,, she really wasn't even into you from the beginning too much. And her other options are better......The threshold for what equals sex for a girl is an astronomical high level .....you have to be a couple points higher smv. And her threshold to show "fake" interest and waste time if she's bored on someone she isn't really interested in, is actually really low. So yeah, she's laughing, she's having a great time right ! And it must be your "game".....(not to say your game may not be helping you extend this "fake" investment by her, but she's not interested in banging you and never was from the beginning)

This is why I now try to stick to online dating.....I know I have the baseline of looks covered, and a reduction of other variables that cold approach presents (not sleeping with anyone no matter what with friends, just drunk, etc)

With online dating, my thought is if I show up and present some game I should be pretty good. Here is where more variables come into play, I find that is not always the case. this presents the next case of "why"

....A friend of mine was texting a tinder match to meetup. They both happened to be at the same club so when they texted a meetup in the same area to meet , once she saw his face she acted like she didn't see him, and turned around and left. The guy looks the same as his pictures online.

I've had where girls online ask me for another picture of mms after getting their phone number online....I sent it and I look the same in that photo as the ones I had online, yet they make and excuse at that point and say the hair is longer or some bs to not meetup. why ??

I learned there is still a looks factor once you go offline in person regardless if your photos are preapproved....and I judge this by how talkative they are at the beginning of the date.

If they are not investing at the beginning of the date, I have times I could run great game and it wouldn't matter. I still could be able to get a kiss, and a venue bounce, most often people would walk away thinking it's a "great date", ......she said she had a great time, call me again. Surely a second date right ?

Wrong. The key is to analyze interactions that you know she was super into you and that "you" messed up. That's how you find the why. Not the "why" from an interaction to where you thought it was going well but the truth is it never really was. The only time bangs have worked for me is when time with the girl was not just going really well but super well ....and in those cases if it doesn't end well it can always be attributed to your game.

My conclusion is that if you can't find a fault in your game. Then your just not hot enough. And she has better options. But if your looking at the right interactions, the why is very easy to find.

[Rawmeo]

When I eject, I always ask the girl to tell me where I screwed up, in order to improve my game for the next one. Here's one from 3 days ago, I already got the bang, but I wanted to include her in my rotation.

Me: "Well I enjoyed last night. I am free Friday or Saturday, which one do you prefer?"
Her: "I am busy a lot with work. I don't know when I will have time. If things change, I'll let you know."
Me: "In order to help me with the next person I will meet, can you tell me where I screwed up so I do not repeat the mistake with someone else?"

Go direct like that.

By doing that, I give her victory, and she will feel free to say anything that goes through her mind. I don't care about losing frame, I already ejected anyway.

Her answer was about the fact that I banged her the first night, it wasn't very "respectful". Yeah, throwing LMR isn't respectful either. Anyway, next.

[B-Nut]

This is how bad the state of affairs is today - you get a bang and your not sure if you will see her again. The bang used to be the endgame and the ball was in your court.

......I had a date a few days ago off of match.com. I took her back to my apartment after an hour and started to escalate she stopped me so I stopped but then restarted. The escalation was intense and fast because she got turned on so much. Not long and drawn out. The second/third time I initiated I got her pants off but didn't have a condom so she wouldn't bang. She left immediately. The next day she reported me to match.com for inappropriate conduct.

In hindsight I see where I messed up. She got lmr due to thinking I was a player (saw another girls clothes in my room), that I only wanted her for sex. And I waited too long to text her the next day, she felt anti slut defense shame and I needed to make her feel important that same night.

.......I believe we can use females feedback if we know how to decipher it. Code for "I didn't feel the chemistry" means "no sexual attraction".......That's IT. Girls will bang you if there is no chemistry. You either weren't at a hot enough level looks wise to where she felt "attraction" by you spitting no game......or you lacked the supplemental game to make her "feel" something. Either way no chemistry means "I don't want to BANG YOU".

On dates now I can decipher immediately. If they don't pass a compliance test of mine, I end the date. Even in the first 5 minutes. Because that is a huge tell your just not interested. So I just had a girl on a first date not agree to walk off of the sidewalk into a park with me where there where benches and a fountain at night, her reason, "something about strangers and first dates"........no folks she wasn't saying "i need more comfort". She was saying "I am not into you".

Here's the part of how evil women are....if they don't feel that CHEMISTRY, spark, aka want to fu## you feelings,then your slime of the earth. And everything out of their mouth is lies, and they don't have the backbone to tell you how they really feel. In fact they'll act like they like you. Just end it right there and treat her like the piece of shit she really is.

[Rawmeo]

(02-07-2015 01:55 PM)B-Nut Wrote:  

This is how bad the state of affairs is today - you get a bang and your not sure if you will see her again. The bang used to be the endgame and the ball was in your court.

......I had a date a few days ago off of match.com. I took her back to my apartment after an hour and started to escalate she stopped me so I stopped but then restarted. The escalation was intense and fast because she got turned on so much. Not long and drawn out. The second/third time I initiated I got her pants off but didn't have a condom so she wouldn't bang. She left immediately. The next day she reported me to match.com for inappropriate conduct.

In hindsight I see where I messed up. She got lmr due to thinking I was a player (saw another girls clothes in my room), that I only wanted her for sex. And I waited too long to text her the next day, she felt anti slut defense shame and I needed to make her feel important that same night.

.......I believe we can use females feedback if we know how to decipher it. Code for "I didn't feel the chemistry" means "no sexual attraction".......That's IT. Girls will bang you if there is no chemistry. You either weren't at a hot enough level looks wise to where she felt "attraction" by you spitting no game......or you lacked the supplemental game to make her "feel" something. Either way no chemistry means "I don't want to BANG YOU".

On dates now I can decipher immediately. If they don't pass a compliance test of mine, I end the date. Even in the first 5 minutes. Because that is a huge tell your just not interested. So I just had a girl on a first date not agree to walk off of the sidewalk into a park with me where there where benches and a fountain at night, her reason, "something about strangers and first dates"........no folks she wasn't saying "i need more comfort". She was saying "I am not into you".

Here's the part of how evil women are....if they don't feel that CHEMISTRY, spark, aka want to fu## you feelings,then your slime of the earth. And everything out of their mouth is lies, and they don't have the backbone to tell you how they really feel. In fact they'll act like they like you. Just end it right there and treat her like the piece of shit she really is.

If a girl didn't agree for a simple walk in the park like you said, I'd also dump her. Jesus, she can't even come in a park with you, how hard will it be to take her to your place and bang her?

Nevertheless, still ask them where she believes you screwed up, even if you are convinced to be right.

[DrewP]

Serious question- If a girl you rejected asked why, what would you say?

I think the vast majority of men would take the non-confrontational path of least resistance just like women do and generate some generic line like "I wasn't feeling the connection." It's hard to tell someone "you're fat" or "you're awkward." I'd rather if people would just be honest, but it's not realistic given our culture.