What frustrates me most about game is the lack of information we receive on why. So maybe you got a girl's number, kissed her, or got her back to your place even, but didn't seal the deal. For you to improve your game for the next girl, it would be helpful to know the exact reason why you failed. But we never get this reason. Instead we can only guess, experiment with different things, and see if that helps.

While that process does help, we're still reaching in the dark. I want to know the specific reason why I failed with this girl, not to alleviate my ego, but to make my game super potent. But how can we do this?

"So we kissed for a while but now you won't come to my place. Can I ask you why? Are you having a womanly problem? Are your legs not shaved? Are my kisses not turning you on?"

Besides asking them directly, I can't think a way to do this. The only solution I have is to find out what type of game would work on her first (i.e. ask relatively early what type of man she likes, see what her most recent ex was like), and then proceed accordingly. Otherwise we will spit a default game that may be way off and lead to failure.

I have asked this, when I eventually got the bang after 2nd and 3rd dates. It's usually because they don't want to be used. I have even had some go as far to say that they don't want to feel shame or guilt due to rapid sexual escalation.

A CLizzy

I quite frankly think one will almost never know. It's the very nature of the woman, so it doesn't need to be logical.

I imagine you've done this before because I think I remember it in a blog post.

Whenever things go wrong with a chick I try to compare how I may have acted differently or what mood I was in when I was on a hot streak or had smooth bangs.

My smoothest bangs where I felt invincible was when:

1) I was fucking horny

2) I wanted to fuck this specific chick badly (my horniness blocked out bad game by being on point out of pure incentive)

3) I felt inside I was on her level or above her in status (I was out gaming her from the start, never playing catch up)

4) I was willing to go to whatever lengths that night or that date to get the bang

5) I was well prepared with logistics (cash on hand - going to venues I was familiar with)

6) I escalated with light kino very early on (I didn't have to plan or think about it, libido forced me to)

7) I took great attention to add the right amount of alcohol to the equation

8) I was having a great time (even if the chick's personality was not interesting - would lightly troll her and be social and flirty with venue staff or strangers around)

9) I wasn't arrogant or thinking the bang was in the bag, I treated her as a tough opponent even if everything was going according to plan


Even with regulars on rotation if I treat them like this on a date (which is rare due to novelty wearing off) I can tell their difference in behavior.

There is no buddy buddy time if I am horny and mean business and want to be out having a great time. They notice me checking them out and touching them. The sex is usually great later. Gotta bring your A-game for A-game results.

Start a dating service, could even be online:

Guys pay for the service and get set on dates with girls that agree to go out with them.

If a guy and girl get along they disappear off into the sunset from the site.

If the guy and girl don't work out and it is the girl that won't go out again she must fill out a quick survey stating why she wouldn't go out on another date with him.

This information would be shared with the guy as part of his membership fee.

Girls for filling out the survey could be rewarded a $10 or $20 gift card after going on 3 confirmed dates by paying male members. Or maybe it is a per date debit from the male's account... whatever you need to do to incentivize the girls beyond a free dating profile.

The trick is the girl's profile would be deactivated until she filled out a survey that looked legit from a site admin. She can't collect her prize without filling out the survey.

A girl with a profile couldn't confirm a date with a 2nd guy until she had finished her current date and submitted the filled out survey. Obviously she could trade info and go on dates, but she wouldn't be able to fill out more surveys and get more $.

Now you would have a dearth of science.

Maybe for a premium membership males could ask 2 or 3 extra personal questions about the rejection on top of the default standard site questions.

Million dollar idea or retarded?

If you wanted to get really evil you could let males bid as high as they want for a date meaning they could advertise how big the gift card they offer if the date doesn't go well and they get survey feedback.

I could see thirsty guys offering $50 gift card to hot chicks to go on a date and tell them what is wrong with them. House site gets a cut % of whatever males offer.

Honestly isn't this a win win win. Beta provider gets feedback. Hot chick gets gift card and probably free drinks/dinner. House site gets money and valuable dating information on what guys do wrong.

Because I'm a 7 and I'm not willing to put in the work to show her I'm a 10 in value.

Or shes a major prude and I redefine my goals and expectations.

I had a girl give me a handshake on date one, pissyy on date two and tears on three. Women are crazy

well, my guess is if the girl seems to like you, but you can't move forward, one of the main reasons you don't get the bang (after a kiss) is because there's a more attractive prospect for her. Attractive women literally have hoards of men courting them. It's life.

But this is why i wanted to talk about personality types and game calibration. Controlling for type could perhaps divulge reasons your looking for. One of the first things I like to establish with a girl is whether she's a slob, or very neat, whether she's analytical and objective or whether she's all about feeling good, etc. etc. But I dont have much experience with this yet.

Quote: (11-27-2014 12:57 AM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

If the guy and girl don't work out and it is the girl that won't go out again she must fill out a quick survey stating why she wouldn't go out on another date with him.

That right there is the problem. You're assuming girls can give honest feedback. There are two problems, first is the girl might not even know herself why she wasn't into it. Second is girls are social creatures and will go out of their way not to offend someone even if they know they'll never see them again so getting honest feedback is tough.

So if it's something simple like the dude had shitty breath they'll lie to be polite and if it's something more subtle like the guy was too supplicating they'll just say it didn't feel right.

Agreed! It's frustrating to not know the 'why' because you get no data that would enable you to make an adjustment to your approach.

I went through a period of about a year where I relentlessly asked girls questions. Sometimes even to the point of annoying them and missing out on a bang.

We can all agree that women give terrible advice about how to be more effective with women, but they do give very precise and actionable feedback.

The things I learned during that period of asking questions were absolutely priceless. It's partially responsible for the single biggest level up in my game 'career', if you want to call it that.

What it did was help me hone my seductive intuition, and also allowed me to confirm/deny a lot of the theories that I was loaded up with from reading too much game literature, but had no way to verify.

When women see that you're earnest and honestly want to know how what you're doing affects their feelings of attraction towards you, most of the time they'll tell you straight up. They can even be brutally honest.

A woman will rarely say "you should do XYZ to get it wet." And if she does, I ignore that anyway as it constitutes advice and comes from some Disney-inspired conceptual vacuum divorced from the reality of how people hook up in the real world.

But if I can elicit feedback in the form of "...you look like you got kind of turned off just now, I'm just really curious, what caused that feeling?", then you can learn a lot about self-sabotaging habits and behaviors that you may not even know you're exhibiting. I certainly did.

The only problem with this approach is it can cost you the bang because generally women want to feel seduced and like it "just happened" (B please), and ideally in a way where the guy knows what to do to turn her on without asking her about it..

But I think it was a worthwhile investment, even with the pussy that I missed out on as a result. It really taught me about the female psyche. And now I have this rapport with women where they confide in me and trust me quickly because I subcommunicate all the right things (discretion, masculinity, sexuality, playfulness, open-mindedness, non-judgement, and so forth).

Now, a few years later, I'm reaping the benefits of that 'time of questioning'.

If I'm in a room full of guys and there's a girl in there, I can connect with her on that 'other level' where we're sort of teasing with our eyes and subcommunicating, and the other guys sense somethings going on but they can't really put their finger on it. It's magic to them.

Granted, most guys are pretty clueless. If I was in a room with you fuckers it would be a different story! haha

But the point is that if you can get girls to teach you about themselves via subjective feedback, you'll learn all you need to know AND you'll gain massive confidence in what you're doing because you'll have verified that your approach pushes the right buttons.

The funny thing about your example is a good majority of western women find kissing more intimate than sex.

Something that I've tried doing is asking her (if she declines a second or third date) what it was that led her to so decline. It was in relation to a sticking point I've noticed I'd been having with first dates.

I had three first dates that turned out much in the same manner - I would build enough rapport and attraction (I think) that I could go for the kiss and not get face turned. I would manoeuvre the date into a place where I could sexually escalate from there, but in all three cases I got stymied by the girls once I tried to go any further than making out with them.

I asked two of the girls (by text message) afterwards why they declined to meet up again, and was actually surprised that both times they said that they "didn't feel there was much of a connection." In fact, both of them used that line almost verbatim.

My guess from that is that while I have the rapport and attraction down, I didn't build up enough comfort to prevent triggering ASD when I escalated sexually past a makeout. It's a point I'm keeping in mind on future first dates.

Granted, this idea has the same problem as many of the others, in that it relies on getting honest, conscious feedback from the girl, but it's something at least.

HSLD

Whenever I fail after getting the initial interest, I can usually trace it back to one or two specific fuck ups. Maybe I'm just rationalizing, but if I think about it for a little while, I can almost always figure out how I fucked up.

I use models of interaction to judge where I messed up. With that in mind it's possible to pinpoint what went wrong. They are:

- what's my value/comfort ratio?
- what's my social capital? [or how invested she is?]
- am I escalating smoothly?
- am I screening & qualifying?

I can describe them in details if someone wants but it's a wall of letters.

tho not always possible and doesn't work all the time, but one thing I have the most success at getting real honest feedback is just asking one of her close friends. If they're close enough she will have likely told her the real reason (tho not always depending on the relationship and situation).

If you see her friend out or got to know her well enough that you have her number or facebook etc then you can just ask her in confidence, with a 'please be honest and don't worry about hurting my feelings' kind of way. Most of the time, although the friend may still sugar coat it a little, she will give you honest direct feedback as she doesn't have to take ownership of it. Of course you have to guage how much she knows or if she's trying to hold back to be nice. But usually I find you will get the brutally honest reason with a 'sorry I had to tell you that' caveat.

You could argue its just natural selection in play. You will never know because it is to complex to have access to every bit of information
of that specific situation, but you succeed for some reason and your genes go for another around the world.

But on a more detailed note, I think that in general it does not matter and you should just focus on your skill set and "luck". So probably the most "reasonable" mindset would be the get the most information out of a situation (the most feedback you might say). But for that you should make a system or Feedback datasheet to have a idea what is going wrong.

From my experience it was mostly about that I had not really good perception skills. For example I could see that there was a signal pinging from a girl, but I would not really do anything. Sometimes it was because I could figure it was wise to have more plates. But
the most common reason was because I could not process the information correctly. So she did say something about my hair, but was it
because ....? Why was it? Of course, I am not much experienced but I think I can see what you have in mind here.

"I dont stink that bad do i".

This is something I think about a lot, especially with date game where I don't have any wingmen around to observe.

Good recent example, I had a first date the other week with a chick that I was sure would be a first date bang for me based on past experience. We met at a bar close to her place which is also near a forum member friend, he's a newbie and been having some trouble sealing the deal. I suggested that he should observe the date from a distance and maybe listen in via a phone call from my phone with earphones, so he could see how it's done and improve his own game. I wish I'd actually gone through with it but with someone experienced, because this date which should've ended with me balls deep instead saw me getting not only blue-balled at her place but literally friendzoned, and I had no idea why. I reckon an extra pair of eyes and an audio recording would've gone a long way to pinpointing what went wrong.

Personally I suspect the main reasons things go inexplicably south is when I either misjudge her type/personality/sluttiness and run the wrong game, or she has another suitor around and decided to choose him over me.

I've been doing a post bang or non bang interview (learnt this from Krauser)

When you get a girl back to yours, once the sex or the sex is or isnt happening, just ask questions like 'when were you first attracted to me' 'when did you know we were gonna fuck'. You'll know where you're going right.

Quote: (11-27-2014 02:45 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

We can all agree that women give terrible advice about how to be more effective with women, but they do give very precise and actionable feedback.

This is very interesting to me and totally counter to my personal experience. Whenever I've asked girls what went wrong I always get, "oh, I just wasn't feeling it". Which could mean anything. Could you give some examples of what kind of feedback you got.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like what you're doing is asking for feedback in the moment, e.g. as soon as you see her disengage you stop and say, hey, what just went on here? It seems like that might be the key to getting honest feedback. If you wait too long (I usually ask the next day or after a girl turns me down - not when I first notice her pull away) then she probably forgets the specifics and just lumps it into a general feeling.

In hindsight, I feel like I get sloppy and blab away at the mouth when I should be pulling back, talking less, and being more in control of myself and what I say. Basically, I dont give it time to build attraction, I rush in, and don't build her up enough. At least thats the feedback I get when it happens.

(This is going to be a small rant. Although this will be insightful for some)

Some time ago I stumbled upon a girl I liked more than the others I had been going out on dates with at the time.

We hit it off really well in the club the night we met, although it was a short interaction. End of the night, light kissing, took her number.

I met with her on campus a few days later. We hung out after classes in the evening. She was very touchy from the start and the vibe was great. When I kissed her again later she got super shy and nervous. She was fun to talk to.

A week later, we went out again. This time I set logistics so that I could try to bang despite the logistic difficulty. Took her bowling (student nights, $5 for 2 games, budget dates?) we had fun there. I 'let her' win at pool. Took her to some trail at 11pm in the winter cold to check out a waterfall. That was nice. Afterwards, took her back to the car and kissing in the back seat.

Suddenly, her body language tensed up when we started making out and in her facial expressions she showed sudden fear as I had her pressed up against the door. I backed up as I felt it must be a past experience or something, I didn't inquire about it but I told her we're not going to do anything that is uncomfortable. I gave it a short break and then we got back at it. Escalation was smooth, top came off easily and at the time she had the greatest tits I've seen on a girl of her stature, short, 5'2 around 105 lbs.

Anyways, when I went to take the pants off, typical resistance. But no matter how much I cooled off, teased her about it, tried freezing out, I couldnt get past that resistance. And I was patient, we were in that backseat for what seems like ages.

Here's what I don't understand. We talked quite a bit and she mentioned not wanting to be 'used' again. In a later topic she mentioned 'theres always someone you have a love for' so later I connected the dots she's probably still emotionally attached to a past alpha. Anyways, although we didn't bang she gave me a blowjob, which still surprises me how some girls will give a dude a blowjob without having banged before, and especially when she has no plans to bang you in the near future. She flaked on some calm meetup attempts from me over the next couple weeks.

I said fuck it, I'll go out and meet another cool chick like her. Went out with my buddies on a busy student club night, doing my thing, meeting fun girls, and then I see her. Normally it would be a normal coincidence (hey what's up) but on this occasion I actually tried to plan a date with her that same night the day prior. She told me she had too much school work as a flake excuse. Hence why I said to hell with it, I'll go out and next it.

Seeing her was one thing. But then I noticed she was overly drunk, and walking around on her own approaching dudes for dances. I saw her makeout with one or two guys.

This was a hard lesson for me. It hurt deep at the time. I wrote a long post about this story on the forum once. I think I described it as taking me finally into red pill. This happened early in 2012.

I have much more experience with girls in many aspects now, I've met better girls than her on more that one occasion and had some cool mini relationships. But I still wonder, how come I wasn't able to bang her? The vibe between us was great, besides the bang she was sexually giving, it obviously wasn't a comfort issue, she's had experience and has done that type of thing before clearly.

I would still like to know so that like Roosh mentioned in the OP, I could make refinements to my game.

But I'll never know.

The only conclusion I can come to is that you have to develop your game as much as you can over what you can influence, and gain as much experience with girls in different areas of game and contexts as possible.

I think if I was in that same situation now with my improved experience, game, and all the subconscious aspects of it, I would have closed the deal, I can say that confidently because I've been able to tie up the knots on the LMR part of my game where I experienced problems in the past. Still, it's impossible to tell.

Despite what it took me through, I don't have any negative feelings or content towards her. She was cute, with an ideal body type I like in a girl, and was fun to be around. And she taught me a hard lesson that made me swallow the red pill. I'm much more in control of my emotions among other things and now and as a result I have great experiences and relationships with other girls.

Quote: (11-27-2014 12:57 AM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

If the guy and girl don't work out and it is the girl that won't go out again she must fill out a quick survey stating why she wouldn't go out on another date with him.

This information would be shared with the guy as part of his membership fee.

It sounds like a good idea, except when you consider that:
- there is no incentive for her to tell the truth
- even if she tries, she may think that she is telling the truth but not even be aware of the real reason- because what girls say and what they do are controlled by completely different parts of their brain

Direct questioning doesn't seem to pull the real truth from most women. They only answer direct questioning when they have a strong desire for an outcome that they haven't been able to achieve through indirect means or communication. So, what line of indirect questioning will elicit why a woman didn't bang you?

There is only ever one reason - fear.

Finding the source of the fear - what's behind it - is what you are looking for.

There are three things in this world that are invariably different from each other:
What a woman says, what a woman truly thinks, and what a woman does.

Asking her for her opinion on why you failed will be a pointless endeavour because (a) she will lie to you, and (b) because she probably is not even capable of consciously knowing why.