[jimukr104]

(11-05-2014 09:00 PM)John Galt2 Wrote:  

Even for diligent students with a legit major, the "return" has been cut in half over the last 20 years. Real life example -

I graduated from Big Ten U in 199x with a degree in accounting (not STEM but legit major). Tuition for four years - $16,000 total. I got a job at a "Big 6" accounting firm, pulling down $32k per year. So lets call it a 2x return in my investment (ignoring taxes).

Fast forward 20 years. Tuition for four years - ~$50,000 total. Current graduates are making about $50,000 at a "Big 4" accounting firm, so call it a 1x return.

Millennials get a lot of shit (mostly deserved) but no doubt the deck is stacked against them.

Just checking costs. I went to NYC public college. The CUNY system has great schools. For example City college has the largest amount of phd graduates in the nation. Brooklyn college is known for a ivy league type liberal arts school and Baruch is a business school where the top companies go to.

When I graduated school 20 yrs ago, 4 yrs cost like 15k. I noticed they almost doubled it since the recession so now it cost 30k.

I am not including living expenses. Either live at home or one works summer and part time.

In NYC a starting accountant makes a bit more than the national avg of 53k. Lets say 60k. So basically 4 yrs tuition cost half of 1 yr starting salary.

20 yrs ago it was same ratio..no change.

But today with the American Opportunity Tax Credit(until 2017 but might be extended) students will get 2500 back per year. That doesn't include the 400 dollar NYS credit. Add in TAP which is a NYS scholarship everyone basically can get and that means education will cost 15k.

So 15k for a degree that pays 55-60k is a bad idea? Even an English degree if you can get one will get a job paying 30k.

Become a nurse , 2 yr degree at community college that pays 60k here and you got a salary 4x the cost of the degree.

I think today's students just have no clue lol.

Many states have cheap public colleges.

Side note: books have always been overpriced but now students have different ways to get them.

[TheFinalEpic]

(11-05-2014 11:49 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 11:31 PM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 10:58 PM)lurker Wrote:  

2. 99% of people can't "be the 1%," and the idea that hustling and intelligence are sufficient to get you there is a laughable myth.

Hustling is the only way to get there. The reason why 99% of people don't get there? Because they don't work in the right direction.

Working for someone else, no matter how hard you work will not get you there.

I respectfully disagree with this, although it is generally much more difficult to have extreme success when you work for someone else, then when you are on your own. I grew up literally feet from a guy who I see on T.V. every single day. Every American guy on here knows the guy who I am talking about is and probably many of the international guys also do. He has always worked for someone else and probably always will. An even better example is a guy who, although not a blood relative, he and I were basically raised as brothers. This guy is insanely wealthy and has always worked for someone else. He's actually a few months younger than me, so he has decades of success ahead of him. All that being said, I much prefer working for myself to working for someone else.

I'll agree that a select few get to the point of financial security through working for others, but I was speaking to the masses in this instance. Working for yourself also adds the intrinsic motivation to do well, whereas working for someone else, for a company you will never own, is usually (not all the time, but very likely) the nail in the coffin of lethargy and average-thinking.

[Vitriol]

A few points to keep in mind:

1. Job security is a thing of the past. I think the average private sector job lasts something like 3 years now. Good like paying off a mortgage, car loan, feeding your bastard spawn, and keeping your wifey around when there's a good chance your job won't exist in a couple of years. You have to get ready to watch it all be taken away every so often if you try to go that route.

2. Finding a job isn't a matter of talking to the guy down that street that owns the business you want to work for anymore. You have to deal with bullshit from recruiters, HR departments, personality tests, skills assessments, 5 step interview processes, all while you're trying to carpet bomb every job ad you see with your resume just to get a response. You're so fucking exhausted after months of all that bullshit that you take the first job you can find even though you're obviously underemployed, but at least it pays the bills.

3. Things like student loan debt and rising rents in all the major cities have made the kinds of lifestyles that millennial parents (baby boomers) had pretty much unachievable for almost everyone. If you graduated with a computer science degree in 1980, you could work for IBM for 20 years and do all that. Now you're going to get undercut by some guy from India who will program for a few bucks an hour. Meanwhile, you had to waste all that time and money earning a piece of paper to get the carpet pulled from underneath you, and after graduating people will say "well why the fuck did you borrow all this money?" Maybe because it's jammed into every American child's head from the moment they're born that going to college is the golden ticket to a comfortable middle class lifestyle (which we know it isn't), but that won't stop Scammie Mae from collecting loan payments on a worthless University of Phoenix degree while their owners are getting politicians to rig the laws so that student loan debt can never be discharged.

The game has been changed (deliberately) and thousands of people are going to get fucked over in the process. Sure, there are some young people who are just unwilling to work, but even most of the ones who are willing to bust their asses legitimately have no future because the rules have been changed to impede their attempts at success. This is the world young people are growing up in.

[Switch]

One of the problems is the K-12 education system. The only goal is to ship as many kids off to college. I heard my history teacher in 11th grade telling a senior that it doesn't matter what you major in in college as long as you get a degree to show employers that you can finish something. What a joke!

A good friend of mine, nice as hell but dumb as fuck is applying to colleges, a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier places where no employers are looking for workers, all because of the 'go to college at all costs' notion.

Another friend of mine is applying to colleges and planson majoring in something related to wine. This is despite the fact that both of hus parents make 6 figures per year with only high school diplomas.

There is a ratio in economics, the 1-2-7 rule, where for every job that requires a graduate degree, 2 require a bachelor's, and 7 require certificate training or trade school. This ratio is expected to stay the same for a long time, but the only goal is to ship kids to college even though 70% of jobs don't require a degree!

[choichoi]

(11-05-2014 01:19 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I'm going to advocate for the other side of the coin here. It's a side that needs to be heard.

The reason why young millenials are underemployed and in debt is this: there are no fucking jobs.

Hence, I enlisted in the military at 26. Lib. Arts degree, student loan debt, bad credit and all. Looking forward to getting out, but taking full advantage of all the benefits while I can.

[samsamsam]

Let's not get totally carried away with pissing on college. To make best use of it and justify the time and money, you just need to be interested in subjects that are in demand. Generally, in order to master such subjects it requires legitimate high intelligence, not the sjw hipster millennial excessive self confidence about how smart they are nonsense. Also, they need some ambition.

[Switch]

^^^samsamsam

College is still probably the best place for young, smart, enterprising individuals who've weighed pros and cons and are going to major in something that gives them a marketable skill. The guys who go to a top 100 school, pull down a 3.8 in a good major, network and make connections are going to have a very good shot at making it to the top. At the very least, they will have a job.

[samsamsam]

^^^ Exactly.

I am sorry if a lot of people just don't have the skills or intelligence to do well in school in tough subjects. But that is the way the world is. And I am not some cruel person, I help whoever I can, but if you can't hack it, you can't hack it, I can't fix that.

And I'll say this, there are plenty of fucking successful people who didn't finish college or even bother. But, from experience, they were still very smart, street smart, common sense, whatever you want to call it. AND THEY WORKED HARD.

I think any guy that seriously digests what is floating around on RVF is probably at least reasonably intelligent. Which is better than 80% of the population.

[Saga]

(11-05-2014 07:09 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

I don't sense most millennials are tough enough for the military. The burden of the military often falls on poorer individuals from tougher circumstances than the avg useless millennial.

I'd say the fault for millennial softness has to go to the generation that raised them. Guys who are now in their 20s grew up in a reality where defending yourself in school would get you the same punishment as the aggressor because feminist administrators expected every kid to be a little Mahatma Gandhi. Generations don't raise themselves.

Also something to consider is that enlisting isn't nearly as easy as it was even 5 years back. The military is spoiled for choice, offer the smallest excuse and recruiters will move onto the next applicant...if you have a DQ-worthy medical issue, no matter how trivial (and they can be laughably trivial), don't hold your breath for a waiver because they're rarely given out.

[MidWest]

Alright, since we are in the topic of college.

I need some advice from fellow Rooshers.

I'm a senior undergrad with a double major in Spanish and History

Its too late for me to get into a translation studies program or get a teaching license without taking out another loan for another year of more courses. I could, but I will be spending more and more money.


brief resume of what I accomplished in college:

-Phi Theta Kappa Honor's Society

-President of the Mexican-American Student Association

-Chairman of "Odyssey Life" which is an organization geared towards helping International students integrate into American culture.

-Chapter Core for the organization "Students Today Leaders Forever"

-Attended a "culture tour" in Buenos Aires, Argentina

-Studied Abroad in Havana, Cuba for the summer.

-Spanish tutor at my university

-Project Member for an up and coming organization called "His Kid's Closet"

-Fraternity brother for LUL.



^^^^^^ Even with all of this, I have no idea what I'm going to do when I graduate and have no idea what kind of jobs or money I could make. I went in blindly with no clear goal or plan. My plan now since I love traveling is to teach ESL abroad. But when I come back to the states, I have no idea what kind of job I can get with a major in History and Spanish.

Any advice? haha

[Deluge]

^Off the top of my head becoming a high school teacher seems like the most logical use of your majors. Though I guess it depends on if you're interested in it and what the local job market for it is. Teachers do get tons of holiday time and you'd be fairly hard to fire, if you can get a job at a private school you'd be guaranteed six figures after 10 years experience.

[SupaDorkLooza]

(11-05-2014 07:09 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 06:18 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

Kids are sleeping on the biggest, best-kept secret in the United States.

The fucking military and the Post-9/11 GI Bill.

I don't sense most millennials are tough enough for the military. The burden of the military often falls on poorer individuals from tougher circumstances than the avg useless millennial.

Edit: I think if you took an avg young male from a Western country and put him up against an avg one from a third world country, the avg Western male would take a beating. I am not hating here, just these kids are so soft these days.

You don't gotta be tough to be in the military. AF and Navy bootcamp is about as tough as summer camp.

[Suits]

(11-06-2014 03:05 AM)MidWest Wrote:  

Alright, since we are in the topic of college.

I need some advice from fellow Rooshers.

I'm a senior undergrad with a double major in Spanish and History

Its too late for me to get into a translation studies program or get a teaching license without taking out another loan for another year of more courses. I could, but I will be spending more and more money.


brief resume of what I accomplished in college:

-Phi Theta Kappa Honor's Society

-President of the Mexican-American Student Association

-Chairman of "Odyssey Life" which is an organization geared towards helping International students integrate into American culture.

-Chapter Core for the organization "Students Today Leaders Forever"

-Attended a "culture tour" in Buenos Aires, Argentina

-Studied Abroad in Havana, Cuba for the summer.

-Spanish tutor at my university

-Project Member for an up and coming organization called "His Kid's Closet"

-Fraternity brother for LUL.



^^^^^^ Even with all of this, I have no idea what I'm going to do when I graduate and have no idea what kind of jobs or money I could make. I went in blindly with no clear goal or plan. My plan now since I love traveling is to teach ESL abroad. But when I come back to the states, I have no idea what kind of job I can get with a major in History and Spanish.

Any advice? haha

PM me about coming to Beijing. With a college degree and some hustle, you can make decent money here (nothing to brag about) and have a great lifestyle to boot.

But that's only if you are ready to work your ass off.

[cool]

(11-06-2014 03:58 AM)SupaDorkLooza Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 07:09 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 06:18 PM)Checkmat Wrote:  

Kids are sleeping on the biggest, best-kept secret in the United States.

The fucking military and the Post-9/11 GI Bill.

I don't sense most millennials are tough enough for the military. The burden of the military often falls on poorer individuals from tougher circumstances than the avg useless millennial.

Edit: I think if you took an avg young male from a Western country and put him up against an avg one from a third world country, the avg Western male would take a beating. I am not hating here, just these kids are so soft these days.

You don't gotta be tough to be in the military. AF and Navy bootcamp is about as tough as summer camp.

True.

Even in the Army, a lot depends on your unit and leadership.

I went from a strategic assignment to a tactical one and it was night and day. The Army is not a monolith. You can get assigned to a unit that totally disillusions you to the military. Or you can get assigned to a unit that makes you want to reenlist.

[Snowplow]

The problem Ive been seeing with my generation (millenials) is the entitlement and bad advice like many of you mentioned. I've wrote about this before, but it seems more and more are headed away from blue collar jobs. I have an associates degree and make close to 100k as an engineer. Mike Rowe has been really great in trying to push high school kids in that direction, and letting them know you can do it almost entirely debt free. The problem is lack of spine and afraid to get dirty. I know it's not for everyone, and for the entrepreneurial type not so much.
The best parts about working some blue collar jobs is you can take it with you just about anywhere. If I get shit canned, so be it. I move my ass somewhere else with my skills or open up my own handyman business. People always need things to be fixed, especially these millenials who don't have a clue when it comes to repair.
Some of the work is dangerous, yes. Just tonight I had to shut down the boiler and repair a high pressure steam line that ruptured. It was hot, dirty and being alone isn't the safest, but the job got done. That's why I make good money. Maybe I won't be a millionaire, but I'll live easy and can always barter work for things I need if I have to.

Long story short, these kids need to throw away the keyboard and pick up a wrench.

[Downtown]

(11-05-2014 02:14 PM)ryanf Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 01:10 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 01:08 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

This will be the next bubble, bailout or whatever you want to call it. I am rushing to pay off my mortgage before it hits.

What is your reason to pay off your mortgage before this hits? Fear the bank might try to pull your loan out from under you if things get bad enough?

Or maybe you have a ARM loan?

Protip: read almost any load contract you enter into. Cars, houses, etc. Almost every one has a clause that the financing company can recall the loan at any time, and force you to pay the balance immediately (with an adjustment for early payment and interest, etc). It's usually not something you hear about, but it's a part of a significant amount of loan contracts. Scary.

Don't have debt.

i work in finance and have to say that this is just factually incorrect. yes there are "acceleration" clauses but only in the event of default and if that default goes uncured after a certain notice and time period.

thats standard language along with the acceleration clause you cite.

keep reading the entire contract

[Mike5055]

Just remember whose idea it was to give millennials awards for effort and participation.

Hint - not millennials.

Frankenstein, meet your monster.

[Feisbook Control]

(11-06-2014 03:05 AM)MidWest Wrote:  

Alright, since we are in the topic of college.

I need some advice from fellow Rooshers.

I'm a senior undergrad with a double major in Spanish and History

Its too late for me to get into a translation studies program or get a teaching license without taking out another loan for another year of more courses. I could, but I will be spending more and more money.


brief resume of what I accomplished in college:

-Phi Theta Kappa Honor's Society

-President of the Mexican-American Student Association

-Chairman of "Odyssey Life" which is an organization geared towards helping International students integrate into American culture.

-Chapter Core for the organization "Students Today Leaders Forever"

-Attended a "culture tour" in Buenos Aires, Argentina

-Studied Abroad in Havana, Cuba for the summer.

-Spanish tutor at my university

-Project Member for an up and coming organization called "His Kid's Closet"

-Fraternity brother for LUL.



^^^^^^ Even with all of this, I have no idea what I'm going to do when I graduate and have no idea what kind of jobs or money I could make. I went in blindly with no clear goal or plan. My plan now since I love traveling is to teach ESL abroad. But when I come back to the states, I have no idea what kind of job I can get with a major in History and Spanish.

Any advice? haha

Be very, very careful about the idea of teaching ESL/EFL. It can be a massive black hole. Guys get stuck in it for years or decades and don't understand just how royally they will be screwed if/when they return or how they are on a road to nowhere if they stay. I have quite a few friends and friends of friends who are now utterly screwed as a result. You need to have a serious plan, both about what you're going to do here, and what you're going to do if/when you leave. It's not enough to just wing it.

The other thing is that some markets (but perhaps not all) are saturated. You and every graduate with a non STEM degree (and plenty with STEM degrees) have had the idea to hit EFL up. At least here in Taiwan, wages have stagnated or even declined since the financial crisis. More than that, the employers now know they are spoilt for choice and so have become even more ruthless and exploitative than they previously were.

Check out this and this post I wrote on the topic.

[The Reactionary Tree]

Well look at the parents who raised the Millennials: The Boomers. They are a pretty pathetic demographic as well. I believe I have seen that a third of them do not have any money to retire in spite of being the wealthiest generation of human beings to have ever existed in the history of the world. 1/3 have no money and 1/3 have less than a years salary. http://www.moneynews.com/FinanceNews/ret...id/516748/

How ridiculous is that? They also vote & are the largest age demographic. They are "entitled" just as much as Millennials are. So naturally, they will use the vote to rob our generation to expand Social Security and Medicare leaving the programs bankrupted for us.

As for Millennials, sadly they are progressive that they will never call for the heads of the university people who sold them a false bill of goods. The university-industrial complex has robbed our generation blind but they are so steeped in Marxist rhetoric that they will go after successful people to get them to pay "their fair share" to support them.

[bojangles]

Meh, sounds a bit like England, student loans guaranteed by the government, every dumb nobhead being enabled to go and get a degree, job market over saturated with graduates.

[Deluge]

(11-06-2014 09:46 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

Meh, sounds a bit like England, student loans guaranteed by the government, every dumb nobhead being enabled to go and get a degree, job market over saturated with graduates.

With England and the rest of the West tuition fees are much lower and the loans are only adjusted for inflation with no real interest. America's system is fucking retarded. And making actual profit off students encourages even more saturation from the universities and the government since demand for bachelor's degree is very inelastic.

[bojangles]

That is true, you can get up to £25k in debt here I think, however the loans being capped to inflation is ridiculous. Inflation has been rising higher than wages since 2008 in the country, although after 40 years your student loan gets annulled lol. I'm waiting for that L

[TheBulldozer]

Great comments men.

An observation coupled with a brief anecdote:

There is something to be said for paying your dues. I am an early millennial, whatever that means, and I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from two highly reputable universities. I found out my degree while highfalutin on the surface and in an interview, didn't mean shit come day one of work. I had literally no clue what I was doing. Thankfully, I got gritty and stuck with it, more because of my father who busted his balls everyday to get the family to where we were in life, would have refused to see me as a man if I gave up so easily. I paid my fucking dues.

And you know what, it was worth it. I'm well on my way in my field and take an enormous satisfaction with where I am at this point in my life. I have absolutely no idea where I will be in twenty years, but I know it will be interesting, challenging and rewarding. I could have bitched about my situation on Facebook years ago, but I didn't. I worked hard, went to bed with a headache, and did it again the next day. I learned a lot. I know can do whatever I set my mind to.

Young men, buy a hard-hat, put your head down, and grit. Shutting the fuck up and working hard is the common denominator of success across any generation.

[The Beast1]

(11-06-2014 12:49 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  

^^^ Exactly.

I am sorry if a lot of people just don't have the skills or intelligence to do well in school in tough subjects. But that is the way the world is. And I am not some cruel person, I help whoever I can, but if you can't hack it, you can't hack it, I can't fix that.

And I'll say this, there are plenty of fucking successful people who didn't finish college or even bother. But, from experience, they were still very smart, street smart, common sense, whatever you want to call it. AND THEY WORKED HARD.

I think any guy that seriously digests what is floating around on RVF is probably at least reasonably intelligent. Which is better than 80% of the population.

The problem with me was the advice. It wasn't until I was half way through my college career that I realized all of what I was studying was complete bullshit and I massively wasted an opportunity not pushing myself into a computer science degree. It was too late for me once I realized what was going on.

Thankfully, side hobbies saved my ass and I have a cushy job doing software developer something completely unrelated to my field of study. I saved a couple of other friends of mine from their mediocrity by pointing them in the direction of IT and another into "higher ed management". The one in higher ed management is a sweetheart, but she's a glorified secretary. Her father thanked me.

Regardless, the level of creativity one needs nowadays to even etch out a marginal niche is nuts.

Everyone here on this forum has what it takes to succeed in the new normal. My hustling abilities are average in comparison to the general population but compared to some of the folks on this forum you guys are gods amongst men.

My rant is focused on the destabilization factor of our society as a bunch of frustrated young people can't start families. Another poster said somewhere in here, this is how people are convinced to go to wars and how empires crumble.

Others say, "Enjoy the collapse." I frankly can't enjoy it. I hate these useful idiots with a passion of a thousand suns, but something in me is in pain watching them happily walk off to slaughter.

[Saga]

(11-06-2014 09:30 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Be very, very careful about the idea of teaching ESL/EFL. It can be a massive black hole.

That's true...but nonetheless, ESL can be an OK option, you just have to be realistic about it and see it as a low-paid way to get out into the world. There are routes into management but don't count on it happening, it's a side-step and not a ladder upwards. But still, at least it gives you international mobility and with a good setup it can lead to a decent lifestyle.

Quote:

The other thing is that some markets (but perhaps not all) are saturated. You and every graduate with a non STEM degree (and plenty with STEM degrees) have had the idea to hit EFL up.

With the exception of a few trades, everything is saturated.