[OregonToSoCal]

Hey guys, I’m a long time lurker and new member to the forum and I’m still having problems with LMR. I’ve searched the forum and read all of the threads and have applied the two steps forward, one step back approach, freeze outs, etc. and I still have many women leave my apartment with nothing but a make out a little heavy petting. My approach has always been to start slowly and gently ramp up the kissing, touching and physical escalation. Most of the time that’s met with them swatting my hands away and them pulling back saying something like “let’s slow things down”. After a few minutes of talking I’ll start again only to be stopped in the same place. This repeats a few more times and the woman gets up and eventually leaves appearing a little frustrated.

I guess my question is, how aggressive do I get in these situations and how caveman do I take things? I’m a recovering nice guy and will take every “no” that a woman tells me literally. I’ve dated women in the past who put up a lot of LMR and finally gave it up only to tell me later that they wanted me to “fight for the pussy” or “push through” their resistance. But in the back of my mind I’m terrified at being accused of date rape.

[polar]

Hypothetically speaking - I usually get in a light kiss / short makeout, take a couple minute break where I comment how she's a good kisser / give her a caress, then pull her back in "for another kiss" and escalate smoothly all the way.

A breakdown of what I'd do
http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-39995-...#pid821246

If she says no, take a step back to the last thing she was comfortable with and maybe stop there for a bit (ex: making out, your arms around get waist, you try to grab her ass, she stops you - maybe stop kissing but leave your hand on her waist.)

Once you've made out, you also have implicit permission to play with her fair, ears, clothes...I like playing with their hair or loose clothing, then using it to pull then back in for a kiss...or just hooking my hand behind her neck. Picking them up is an awesome move for escalation too, builds attraction and gets the endorphins flowing. Think of it all as emphasizing male-female polarity, you're being masculine and with a masculine man and feminine woman, it's only natural to get caught up into having sex.

The whole time if I'm taking a break, I'd verbalize "you're terrible, you're so tempting, I can't keep my hands off you, what are you talking about that I'm terrible, I'm really innocent, etc. etc" it's only natural to pull her back in for more afterwards.

If you hit resistance, take one step back, get her comfortable, then try again. If she pushes you off, take another breather, maybe give her a neck rub for a minute / run your hands over her body non-sexually, then try again. If she stops you in the same place more than once and pushing a bit didn't help, re-establish comfort then work to schedule another meet-up.

I see her resistance as something that burns through comfort which you established earlier during the date - go through too much and you'll either burn through the set or need lots of damage control.

In short, don't get rapey, but if she's still standing there / not leaving, you have room to try again at least once more. It's a matter of being incrementally more aggressive with each subsequent girl, rather than trying to turn into Ron Jeremy overnight.

Don't forget to text her at the end of the night something ambiguous like "I didn't know you're such a temptress, let me know when you get home safely"

[OregonToSoCal]

Thanks @Polar! I think one of the areas where I'm going wrong is that I'm too tentative in the kissing and hand roaming. I need to have a little more passion and intent behind my escalation. I know women can smell a lack of confidence from a mile away and I very well may be telegraphing that in my body language while we're kissing and and I'm trying to escalate.

[polar]

What are your dates usually like? Where do you go, what do you do, how many dates until you normally have sex or make the attempt? Give a play by play.

[OregonToSoCal]

A lot of my dates come from Tinder and a few are from in person approaches. I almost always go for the first date bang and have read Tuth's first date bang formula. I'll meet them at a bar within about 10 mins from my apartment and we'll have 1-2 drinks max. I never go for the kiss in the bar but I try to work in as much kino and comfort building as I can. I'll spend at least 45 minutes to an hour asking them questions about their lives, their passions and other topics to get them in an emotional state. I always try to have them do about 80% of the talking while I do 20%.

If our first round of drinks is nearly done and I can tell we're vibing I'll bring up one of my real passions in life, photography. Almost without fail they will ask if I have any photos I can show them. I'll say I have a few on my phone but most are at home on my ipad I'll show them a few photos on my phone and they'll always react positively and mention something like "I'd love to see more of your work sometime". I'll follow up with "do you have anywhere you need to be now? Let's swing by my place and you can take a look". More than 50% of the time they will agree and I'll quickly settle the bill and have them follow me to my place.

Once we're at my apartment I'll put some music on the TV (Pandora) and fix us a drink. I have a collection of photos on my iPad that are proven winners and I'll let them scroll through while we're sipping our drinks and it's a perfect opportunity to move in close to them on the couch while I give quick back stories on the photos. A few minutes into the slide show my hand is casually resting on their leg while they're saying how much they love my work

Depending on how quickly they go it will take about 10 minutes for them to look through my photo portfolio and they're usually very relaxed and comfortable by this point. I'll pick a time when we're very close and they're in the moment and I'll take my hand and gently turn their head towards me and begin kissing them. And that's where my original question begins....

[redbeard]

Never rule out your frame and personality....sounds like you know what you're doing but that can all be negligible if she isn't truly attracted.

That being said your bait back to your place is gold - execution is solid.

Keep it up and you'll get through.

[polar]

Frame might be an issue. You might be coming off too timid prior to pulling her back to yours, so when you try going for the kiss she's like "whoa WTF where'd that come from?" By the time you're looking at the photos, she should be in your lap or arms.

By the time you're going through your photos you need to have a vibe out "I'm trying so hard not to kiss you." So when you do kiss, it's like 50,000 tons of TNT. Reread first date bang recipe, by the time you're walking to yours she should think you're a private person, not a timid one - that if you were to go for the kiss immediately after walking out of the bar, she wouldn't say no.

Sit next to her in the bar, start touching her when you're making points within 5-10 minutes, by the time you're walking it should be no surprise to her that you have your arm around her. Plausible deniability all the way to the kiss - whisper in her ear, run your nose along her neck, tickle her when she's sitting in your arms, etc.

All that's left is to pull the trigger.

[YossariansRight]

I'll continue with the frame angle. Frame is rule #1; it's the foundation, period. If there are cracks in it, it's not gonna hold up.

And read this, it's powerful: http://www.rooshv.com/be-that-guy

[OregonToSoCal]

Thanks again for the good feedback and I agree that my frame is most likely what's at fault here. I think back to the times where I successfully banged a girl after bringing her home and got no LMR resistance at all or the little that came up was token at best and on all of those times there was no waffling or trepidation on my part. I wanted them pure and simple and I escalated the living shit out of them with zero shame.

The woman from last week that I'm mainly writing this post about was extremely cute, perky and not least bit slutty looking. I think (no, I know) this had an effect on how I escalated with her and caused me to hesitate and not move with reckless abandon. I still have some residual blue pill beliefs such as "she's too good of a girl to fuck on the first date" or "I don't want to mess this up by pushing too hard too soon"

[Travesty]

This is an easy fix.

Get more drunk, get her more drunk. Sneak shots in.

Your game plan is solid. You need more victories to build confidence. More alcohol and maybe slightly lower standars will help turn you into a Bulletproof Tiger.

Experience grasshopper, experience. Buy your way to experience with Patron.

As they say Pussy and Patron makes you feel alright, Pussy and Patron that's some great advice...