rooshvforum.network is a fully functional forum: you can search, register, post new threads etc...
Old accounts are inaccessible: register a new one, or recover it when possible. x


Progressives are beginning to attack their own
#26

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Excellent thread.

The insanity isn't new, it's just that now, the inmates are running the asylum.

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
Reply
#27

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

I wonder why nobody ever thinks of just going back to the 1950s? There was a healthy balance between repression and freedom. People were strong, healthy, and trustworthy. Nobody could touch such a population and Islam was a non player. A man would marry in his early 20s and every man was desirable to women because he had a car and could get her out of the house. It appears that the real culprit is too much success, materiality, and physical comfort. It is really paradoxical. Does success rot the soul? Will we be happier if everything collapses? I have become skeptical of causes trying to improve things. I value peace of mind more.

Rico... Sauve....
Reply
#28

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 11:30 AM)Sherman Wrote:  

I wonder why nobody ever thinks of just going back to the 1950s? There was a healthy balance between repression and freedom. People were strong, healthy, and trustworthy. Nobody could touch such a population and Islam was a non player. A man would marry in his early 20s and every man was desirable to women because he had a car and could get her out of the house. It appears that the real culprit is too much success, materiality, and physical comfort. It is really paradoxical. Does success rot the soul? Will we be happier if everything collapses? I have become skeptical of causes trying to improve things. I value peace of mind more.

The 1950's? You mean that awful, 88% white, 70% Christian society?

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
Reply
#29

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

I expect to see more gay men join the manosphere, and this forum, as they are pushed out of progressive groups.

Pretty soon no men will be allowed in progressive groups.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
Reply
#30

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

@Scorpion

You want people to back to worshipping a zombie character who might not have existed?

I think people have to stop displacing responsibility. Religious people, progressives.. the whole lot.

People want a savior to worship. They also want a bad guy to hate. It's childish thinking. A fantasy black and white world where these characters do the living.

It's too painful to look in the mirror and say: I am responsible for my own actions.

There's definitely going to be a lot of in-fighting on the left, but that's what happens when you try to lump a lot of groups with different intentions into the same tent.

Meanwhile, while everyone is arguing, there are very real problems that are going un-addressed.
Reply
#31

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

I never worry abt progs anymore. The solution to progs IMO is: work for yourself.

If you do that, everything will start to work out for you.

Progs might be agitated if you succeed, but there's nothing they can do.
Reply
#32

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-26-2014 08:20 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Cultures and societies go through cyclical shifts, swinging back and forth like a pendulum. The vast and destructive leftward swing wrought by progressivism is currently nearing its terminal reach, at which point it will swing backwards equally far to the right. Since traditional Christianity has been all but destroyed while Islam is ascendent, it seems likely that conservative Islam will move in to fill the gap.

I hope I am wrong about this this. But I don't see any way to reverse the long term trend, with the exception of a miraculous (and I mean it would literally have to be a miracle) new Great Awakening of Christianity in the West, a fundamentalist Christianity which rejects modernity and progressivism and which could rival Islam in both its religious fervor and reproductive potential (aka 6+ kids per woman). Failing that, Western Civilization as we know it will not live out the century. It will die from cultural AIDS and its carcass will either rot or be devoured by Islam.

I completely agree with everything you've said except for the prognosis.

Western Civilization aka white civilization will shrink, but it will not die out completely. Far from it.

Fact is, white Civilization has been through much worse than what we have today.

There are 200 million whites in America. Even if we lose half of white America by the end of the century, that's still 100 million whites, more whites than any other point of history. Same deal with Europe. White population levels are still at all time highs.

What is going to happen is a great culling of the white race. Every now and then an organism becomes big and strong, but gets complacent with his success. This invites lots of attackers to come and feast on his weakness. Who will survive the chaos? These survivors will be the ones who rebuild the next white civilization.

The story of Rome is the story of the white race. From humble beginnings and virtue, arose a powerful state that crushed all enemies and took over most of the world. Once at the top, the people became more focused on improving their lives relative to other citizens and stopped caring about each other.

When Rome fell apart in the 4th century, the decline had been preceded by nearly three centuries of hedonism, greed, and corruption. Rome had amassed huge stockpiles of wealth, but Rome became less interested in stopping invaders as they were in controlling their citizens through endless laws and taxes. Most Roman citizens saw children as a burden and dedicated themselves to public office, mercantilism, or the military as a means to advance rank.

Roman women in particular were trash - just like modern American women. Seen as whores and sluts, no-fault divorce was rampant.

Roman numbers declined, barbarian numbers increased, the empire grew weak and was crushed by uncivilized masses. Interestingly enough, one of the last Emperors of Western Rome was a non-White emperor, who was extremely incompetent and actually presided in Italy while Rome was sacked. He cowardly moved to another city before the sacking. This Emperor was Honorius. You can tell he was a mixed breed from his diptych:

[Image: 800px-Consular_diptych_Probus_406.jpg]

The modern parallels to Obama are pretty striking, as Obama is the mixed-race Emperor currently presiding over the irreversible destruction of the American empire. Like the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun.

But the above about Rome's death isn't the point of this post. This story you all know. Let's talk about the story you don't know.

From 500-1000 AD, the western Roman empire was competed for heavily by various factions - first the visigoths, then the eastern Roman empire briefly regained control, then the franks under the Holy Roman Empire. All of these wars were far more harmful than good and depleted the white race of it's members. The endless wars, plus the bubonic plague, made most of former white territory extremely vulnerable to Islam, a brand new warrior religion that came about in the 8th century.

Islam went through all of Africa, and as Alexandria was being sieged defense forces from Constantinople were famously kept in the capital due to various political reasons while the city fell to Muslims:

Quote:Quote:

It is said that Heraclius, the Byzantine emperor, collected a large army at Constantinople. He intended to march at the head of these reinforcements personally to Alexandria. But before he could finalize the arrangements, he died. The troops mustered at Constantinople dispersed, and consequently no help came to Alexandria.

After the Byzantines (who were, remember, just the Romans of the eastern Empire) lost Alexandria the rest of North Africa was easy pickings, and even Spain fell as well.

So the white world had once covered the entire Mediterranean, but by 1000 AD the only white parts of the Mediterranean were confined to Italy, Greece, and present-day Turkey.

And as much of a loss had been incurred, that was just the start!

From 1000 AD to 1500 AD was even more death and destruction for the white race.

The Byzantine empire, which had managed to hold back huge Islamic invasions of 200K+, had been growing weak and weary. They had also been mismanaged by shitty, evil emperors, and much of Eastern turkey had fallen to Islamic invasions.

As a result, a call was made into barbarian Europe, which had been thoroughly Christianized by the Catholics, for military aid. This is how the first crusade began.

And although the first crusade had been successful in pushing back Islamic forces, the successes were short lived because the root problems of white decline were unaddressed: insufficient fertility, lack of justice for its citizens which inhibited family growth, etc.

So although the white race managed to push back, the attempts were feeble and misguided. The failures of the crusades became fully apparent by the fourth crusade, in 1202, which ended up with a a betrayal and sack of the largest white city in the world, of Constantinople. And it was done by other fellow Christians! The destruction of the fourth crusade was so great that the Byzantine empire never recovered, and to compound the misery later that century the Mongol invasions poured into both Eastern Europe, Turkey, and the Middle East.

In 1452, the destruction of the western civilization in the middle east was complete after Constantinople fell to the Turks. Constantinople, once the greatest city in the world, home to the white Christian empire, became ruled by the mongrel Turks and renamed to Istanbul. From Istanbul rose the Ottoman empire, and this empire would rule over all of the Islamic world up until WW1.

Now here's where this history lesson concludes.

Imagine had you been a regular white guy, in a place like France or England, during the events of 1400's.

You'd have seen utter destruction of virtually all frontier white Christian lands. You'd have seen mass poverty, plague, and despotism. The only real positive development was the reconquista of Spain from Islamic rule into Christian rule. Other than that, you'd probably be pretty despondent, and hopeless for the future. The only parts of the white world were confined to England, France, the Nordic countries, Prussia, Italy, and just recently Spain. What is known as present day Russia was still home to the golden horde. Probably the entire white world at this point was confined to an area of land no bigger than California. Things weren't looking so hot for the white man.

And yet what actually happened?

Because the Turks were Islamic, and Islamic rule states that only Muslims may trade with other Muslims without suffering huge tariffs, the spice trade to the orient was priced out of Europe.

So in 1492, Columbus sailed the Ocean blue in search of cheaper spice trade routes. And he accidentally discovered America.

And so the death of the old world created the birth of the new world. Just as Jesus had been sacrificed to save the sins of man, Constantinople was sacrificed for the sins of the white race.

The white survivors of nearly 1000 years of territory decline, wars, famines, tyrants, and plagues, were some of the meanest, most racist, opportunistic men on the planet. In short, nature herself selected the whites who would go forth and colonize the world because these were the ones who could withstand incredible pressure from extremely hostile forces.

The Indians really stood no chance, because the Indians never had to deal with bubonic plague, Muslim invasions, Mongol invasions, or power-hungry monarchs. Whites had guns, ships, and highly advanced agriculture that was necessary to survive in the perpetual war zone known as Europe.

Once the whites had access to two continents, these tough as fuck survivors of the Ancient Roman empire were able to repopulate and reshape the world in their image. From 1500 AD to 1900 AD has been one of the greatest times in history for the white race. It's undisputable.

But now, with decadence fully priced into the future, it's obvious that the white race is due for more hard times ahead. Will it survive? Will this race finally fade into obscurity? Who knows? However, if history is of any use, then we shouldn't be surprised, or dismayed, at a prolonged period of white decline. It's happened for nearly 1000 years prior to the current period, and the total number of whites probably never amounted over 4-5 million.

Today there are close to half a billion whites. So, I think nature knows it's time for some good ole fashioned culling. The weak whites - the feminists, the manginas, the race-traitors, the marxists, the progressives, the atheists, and others - are just excess that the white race knows it needs to get rid of. So for the next 100-200 years I fully expect with this problem to be dealt with.

I don't believe in human free will as a major force shaping the world. Group selection makes far more sense to me. Humans are social animals, like ants, and generally what we believe to be individual desires are nothing more than the forces of our social collective exerting its will over us.

This is the story of the white race you will never learn in school.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
Reply
#33

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

lol at Samseau saying atheists are "excesses"

I don't get how redpill you are but you still believe in fairytales.

There are lessons to be learned from the stories in religious books, but I don't get how you justify cherry picking your skepticism.
Reply
#34

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 01:50 PM)soup Wrote:  

lol at Samseau saying atheists are "excesses"

I don't get how redpill you are but you still believe in fairytales.

There are lessons to be learned from the stories in religious books, but I don't get how you justify cherry picking your skepticism.

Name one great atheist civilization.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
Reply
#35

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 01:22 PM)soup Wrote:  

@Scorpion

You want people to back to worshipping a zombie character who might not have existed?

I think people have to stop displacing responsibility. Religious people, progressives.. the whole lot.

People want a savior to worship. They also want a bad guy to hate. It's childish thinking. A fantasy black and white world where these characters do the living.

It's too painful to look in the mirror and say: I am responsible for my own actions.

There's definitely going to be a lot of in-fighting on the left, but that's what happens when you try to lump a lot of groups with different intentions into the same tent.

Meanwhile, while everyone is arguing, there are very real problems that are going un-addressed.

Religious belief is hardwired into the human brain. True atheism, to the extent that it's possible at all (I would argue that it's largely a delusion) is flatly impossible for the mass of people. Most people need some sort of religious belief to survive, and if traditional religion has been eliminated then alternatives will be found. The modern progressive hysteria we're experiencing is essentially a secular religion, just like Christianity and Islam are religions. The problem with a secular religion like progressivism is that it unavoidably makes a god of man himself. They worship "equality" because equality is just another way of saying "all mankind". So progressivism is literally the worship of man.

The atheist who says he doesn't need to believe in God to live a moral life is completely delusional. He doesn't realize that in the absence of God, he is not free to determine his own morality. He has already absorbed the morals and norms of the society he lives in. Today that means he has internalized a progressive morality, whether he realizes it or not. This is why even guys who don't identify as progressives commonly say things like, "I don't care if homosexuals get married, it doesn't bother me," or "It's woman's right to abort (murder) her child, it's her body," or "Religion is stupid and has no place in modern society."

Such men are not renegades going their own way deciding between right or wrong for themselves, they're just more victims of a progressive culture that has "killed" God and placed man on the throne. When man begins to dictate morality rather than God, society begins its inevitable deterioration, which we see now.

[size=8pt]"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”[/size] [size=7pt] - Romans 8:18[/size]
Reply
#36

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

There are a lot more "in the closet" atheists that have been part of the "great white" civilization that you talk about.

It's the first time in history when you won't get killed if you come out and say you don't believe in god.
Reply
#37

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Scorpion how do you define god?
Reply
#38

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 02:04 PM)soup Wrote:  

Scorpion how do you define god?

The Christian God of the Bible. And I'm about to run out the door here so I don't have time to get into a religious debate or existence of God debate. In this thread I'm talking about religion from the societal point of view. Basically, ask yourself, regardless of your personal religious beliefs, what religious beliefs would you prefer everyone else in your society to hold?

Secular progressivism?
Islam?
Christianity?

The first is the dominant religion of today's decadent West. The second is dominant in the Middle East and is currently making large inroads in Europe. And the third was dominant in Europe and America for over 1500 years, a period that corresponded with the greatest achievements of humanity.

Would you rather everyone in your neighborhood/city be a Muslim, a Christian or a secular progressive? That is the question. And there are a thousand ways to nitpick a response to this, but just take it at face value and answer honestly, and the choice becomes fairly obvious in my opinion.

[size=8pt]"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”[/size] [size=7pt] - Romans 8:18[/size]
Reply
#39

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Not to split hairs, Scorpion, but there's a world of difference among the Christian sects, too.

Back when the Greeks were pagans they were inventing Philosophy and Democracy. Now they're mostly Orthodox and insert your own joke here.
Reply
#40

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

as an addendum to scorpion's post - I would like to note that Western Civilization did not rise to such great heights until AFTER Christianity was largely politically neutered through societal revolutions like the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

When Western Civilization was completely under the yoke of Christianity it was known as the Dark Ages. Let's not forget that Christianity - and all religions for that matter - has fought tooth and nail against every social and scientific advancement we have had as a civilization - everything from the abolishment of slavery to the scientific theory of evolution.
Reply
#41

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Secular progressivism isn't a religion. There's no diety.
Reply
#42

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Worrying about the "white race" is a bit early-20th century quaint in the face of likely developments in genetics, bioengineering, artificial intelligence, super-empowered terrorists, nuclear proliferation, environmental poisoning (e.g. bees and plankton) and bad shit we don't even know about yet.

It's more likely everybody will be killed off in the next 100 years than white people disappearing in the next 1000 years.
Reply
#43

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

As to the original point of the topic, I'm reminded of this quote:

Quote:Quote:

If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by

Things are going to get better before they get worse, but the current "cultural matrix" can't last long because it's been built on very shaky foundations.
Reply
#44

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 01:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote: (06-27-2014 01:50 PM)soup Wrote:  

lol at Samseau saying atheists are "excesses"

I don't get how redpill you are but you still believe in fairytales.

There are lessons to be learned from the stories in religious books, but I don't get how you justify cherry picking your skepticism.

Name one great atheist civilization.




Reply
#45

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote:Quote:

Back when the Greeks were pagans they were inventing Philosophy and Democracy. Now they're mostly Orthodox and insert your own joke here.

Quote: (06-27-2014 02:42 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  

as an addendum to scorpion's post - I would like to note that Western Civilization did not rise to such great heights until AFTER Christianity was largely politically neutered through societal revolutions like the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

When Western Civilization was completely under the yoke of Christianity it was known as the Dark Ages. Let's not forget that Christianity - and all religions for that matter - has fought tooth and nail against every social and scientific advancement we have had as a civilization - everything from the abolishment slavery to the scientific theory of evolution.

No my friends, you guys are ignorant of history. Christianity was the only thing that preserved Western civilization through the dark ages.

We wouldn't even know about the Greeks had not the Christians preserved that ancient history. During the dark ages most people could not even read. It was only Christian monks who kept teaching Latin and copying down old books, as well as translating them, for the benefit of future generations.

There would be no Aristotle without Christianity. Therefore there would be no science without Christianity.

Contributor at Return of Kings.  I got banned from twatter, which is run by little bitches and weaklings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
Reply
#46

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

If these groups had an opinion that could be internationally broadcasted 24/7 how everything can be now - things may not have been that different in the 50s.

Part of the reason why society is the way it is, is because absolutely everyone can telegraph an opinion or belief online (no matter how dumb) and enough people will run with it, thus, we have a matrix of groups that are constantly at odds with each and it's more visible on a personal level.
Reply
#47

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 03:39 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

Back when the Greeks were pagans they were inventing Philosophy and Democracy. Now they're mostly Orthodox and insert your own joke here.

Quote: (06-27-2014 02:42 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  

as an addendum to scorpion's post - I would like to note that Western Civilization did not rise to such great heights until AFTER Christianity was largely politically neutered through societal revolutions like the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

When Western Civilization was completely under the yoke of Christianity it was known as the Dark Ages. Let's not forget that Christianity - and all religions for that matter - has fought tooth and nail against every social and scientific advancement we have had as a civilization - everything from the abolishment slavery to the scientific theory of evolution.

No my friends, you guys are ignorant of history. Christianity was the only thing that preserved Western civilization through the dark ages.

We wouldn't even know about the Greeks had not the Christians preserved that ancient history. During the dark ages most people could not even read. It was only Christian monks who kept teaching Latin and copying down old books, as well as translating them, for the benefit of future generations.

There would be no Aristotle without Christianity. Therefore there would be no science without Christianity.
This is completely true.
***
Look, I don't subscribe to any of the world's religions, (though I am open to the possibility of intelligent design or some sort of 'prime mover') but I think atheists are wrong when they try to frame it as an issue of intelligence - which is always.

Throughout history some very smart men have taken religious seriously. Just to name a few, St. Augustine, Aquinas, Isaac Newton, and C.S. Lewis, Balthasar Gracian or Francis Bacon(who was one of the fathers of the scientific method).

Oh, and @scorpion is correct when he says that people aren't becoming less religious, they're just shifting toward 'secular religions'. Psychotherapy for example. And the atheist movement itself has eerily religious characteristics.
Reply
#48

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote:Quote:

We wouldn't even know about the Greeks had not the Christians preserved that ancient history. During the dark ages most people could not even read. It was only Christian monks who kept teaching Latin and copying down old books, as well as translating them, for the benefit of future generations.

Uh, most Christian churches were hell bent on destroying anything that contradicted Christian dogma - and were so successful that only a few copies of ancient Greek books were preserved - not by Christians - but by Muslims.

This is why the Muslims had a golden age of discovery while Christian Europe wallowed in the Dark Ages of Inquisitions, Religious Wars, and Crusades.

Quote:Quote:

There would be no Aristotle without Christianity. Therefore there would be no science without Christianity.

What? Aristotle was pagan and his works were preserved by Muslims after being almost totally destroyed by Christian Europe.

And science is a methodology that exists irrespective of the works of one man. There were Greek scientists making discoveries about how large the world was and how tides worked, etc. LONG before Aristotle.

The truth of the matter is that there would not be a modern Christianity without PLATO. Christianity was influenced by Platonic philosophy INFINITELY more than with any of Aristotle's works.

"Platonism had a profound effect on Western thought, and many Platonic notions were adopted by the Christian church which understood Platonic forms as God's thoughts, whilst Neoplatonism became a major influence on Christian mysticism, in the West through St Augustine, Doctor of the Catholic Church whose Christian writings were heavily influenced by Plotinus' Enneads, and in turn were foundations for the whole of Western Christian thought."
Reply
#49

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 03:39 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

Back when the Greeks were pagans they were inventing Philosophy and Democracy. Now they're mostly Orthodox and insert your own joke here.

Quote: (06-27-2014 02:42 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  

as an addendum to scorpion's post - I would like to note that Western Civilization did not rise to such great heights until AFTER Christianity was largely politically neutered through societal revolutions like the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

When Western Civilization was completely under the yoke of Christianity it was known as the Dark Ages. Let's not forget that Christianity - and all religions for that matter - has fought tooth and nail against every social and scientific advancement we have had as a civilization - everything from the abolishment slavery to the scientific theory of evolution.

No my friends, you guys are ignorant of history. Christianity was the only thing that preserved Western civilization through the dark ages.

We wouldn't even know about the Greeks had not the Christians preserved that ancient history. During the dark ages most people could not even read. It was only Christian monks who kept teaching Latin and copying down old books, as well as translating them, for the benefit of future generations.

There would be no Aristotle without Christianity. Therefore there would be no science without Christianity.

But the Dark Ages were the periodwhen the Church had total power and religion dominated people's lives. The reformation and Enlightenment are considered to be the time when the ideas that would transform the world for the better developed.

You should read Steven Pinker's 'The better angels of our nature' where he goes through the history of violence and how stuff such as killing children at birth that were seen as a burden, torturing people in public, slavery, pogroms, genocide, rape, murder in battles of 'honour', serfdom, the abuse of workers and fun pursuits such as bear baiting were seen as acceptable practices as were constant inter-religious wars between Catholics and Protestants that have only ended relatively recently (a small relic of this is the conflict that still exists in Glasgow and Northern Ireland which to the rest of the UK seems embarassingly anachronistic). Europe was how countries like Sudan are now as they would burn 'heretics' for suggesting the sun did not rotate around the earth.

If you have travelled to some of the most fucked-up places in Africa and Middle East where liberal ideas on humanity and treating lower class people, women, gays, etc well haven't developed you would not want Europe to going back to being like that. It's easy to romanticise about a time when people that were not the elite were basically slaves and constant cruelty and violence was accepted.

Also you said that a time will come when 'race traitors' to the white race will be dealt with. I am wondering what you mean by this and who these 'race traitors' would be. Would Jews be allowed to live in Europe also when the 'white race' stands up again. If not how would you deal with them srs
Reply
#50

Progressives are beginning to attack their own

Quote: (06-27-2014 02:49 PM)soup Wrote:  

Secular progressivism isn't a religion. There's no diety.

Quote:scorpion Wrote:

The problem with a secular religion like progressivism is that it unavoidably makes a god of man himself. They worship "equality" because equality is just another way of saying "all mankind". So progressivism is literally the worship of man.

[size=8pt]"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”[/size] [size=7pt] - Romans 8:18[/size]
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)