[soup]

(06-27-2014 03:59 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 02:49 PM)soup Wrote:  

Secular progressivism isn't a religion. There's no diety.

scorpion Wrote:

The problem with a secular religion like progressivism is that it unavoidably makes a god of man himself. They worship "equality" because equality is just another way of saying "all mankind". So progressivism is literally the worship of man.

There's no worshipping going on. I think you are getting your semantics mixed up. Worshipping is for dieties.

[soup]

(06-27-2014 03:52 PM)The PerSev Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 03:39 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:

Back when the Greeks were pagans they were inventing Philosophy and Democracy. Now they're mostly Orthodox and insert your own joke here.

(06-27-2014 02:42 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  

as an addendum to scorpion's post - I would like to note that Western Civilization did not rise to such great heights until AFTER Christianity was largely politically neutered through societal revolutions like the Reformation and the Enlightenment.

When Western Civilization was completely under the yoke of Christianity it was known as the Dark Ages. Let's not forget that Christianity - and all religions for that matter - has fought tooth and nail against every social and scientific advancement we have had as a civilization - everything from the abolishment slavery to the scientific theory of evolution.

No my friends, you guys are ignorant of history. Christianity was the only thing that preserved Western civilization through the dark ages.

We wouldn't even know about the Greeks had not the Christians preserved that ancient history. During the dark ages most people could not even read. It was only Christian monks who kept teaching Latin and copying down old books, as well as translating them, for the benefit of future generations.

There would be no Aristotle without Christianity. Therefore there would be no science without Christianity.

This is completely true.
***
Look, I don't subscribe to any of the world's religions, (though I am open to the possibility of intelligent design or some sort of 'prime mover') but I think atheists are wrong when they try to frame it as an issue of intelligence - which is always.

Throughout history some very smart men have taken religious seriously. Just to name a few, St. Augustine, Aquinas, Isaac Newton, and C.S. Lewis, Balthasar Gracian or Francis Bacon(who was one of the fathers of the scientific method).

Oh, and @scorpion is correct when he says that people aren't becoming less religious, they're just shifting toward 'secular religions'. Psychotherapy for example. And the atheist movement itself has eerily religious characteristics.

I've never heard atheists frame it as in issue of intelligence. All the famous atheists recognize that there are some very smart people who are theists.

[Samseau]

So far everyone is focusing on what happened to the Catholics, while conveniently ignoring the Orthodox who were the richest group of people for nearly 1000 years.

The catholics were rebuilding the rubble of rome. They had mad work to do. However the Orthodox were left with the best and the brightest of old Rome in Constantinople.

They had all the works of Aristotle preserved, as well many others.

The actual enlightenment in Europe didn't start until Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1452. The Byzantine scholars fled the city and landed in Italy, and brought over 1000 years of undiscovered history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissanc...e_humanism

Again, there's simply no point in denying the importance of Christianity. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Even the most atheist professors in my philosophy department understood the simple fact that there is no Western Civilization without Christianity.

[Farmageddon]

No one is denying the importance of Christianity to Western Civilization. But you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of its foundation to science, which is ultimately founded in Greek philosophy which predates Christianity by several hundred or perhaps a thousand years. Saying there wouldn't be science without Christianity is absurd. Scientific thought predates Christianity. Science is a methodology that exists independent of any religion or the writings of any one individual.

Religious thought is the antithesis of scientific discovery. If anything, "On The Nature of Things" by Lucretius is the foundation of scientific thought, or perhaps the Socractic method.

[Crackshot]

(06-27-2014 04:09 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

So far everyone is focusing on what happened to the Catholics, while conveniently ignoring the Orthodox who were the richest group of people for nearly 1000 years.

The catholics were rebuilding the rubble of rome. They had mad work to do. However the Orthodox were left with the best and the brightest of old Rome in Constantinople.

They had all the works of Aristotle preserved, as well many others.

The actual enlightenment in Europe didn't start until Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1452. The Byzantine scholars fled the city and landed in Italy, and brought over 1000 years of undiscovered history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissanc...e_humanism

Again, there's simply no point in denying the importance of Christianity. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Even the most atheist professors in my philosophy department understood the simple fact that there is no Western Civilization without Christianity.

I don't think it can be denied that some of the most fantastic parts of Western life were blessed by Christianity. For example education for the poor, banning infanticide, discouraging a 'culture of honour' and blood debts, and so on. In the course of human history a god that was compassionate, forgiving and meek was something of an incredible achievement and probably led to the development of other kinds of kindnesses in western civilisation. Moving away from a violent god like in Norse mythology that would encourage rape and murder to one that would teach non-violence is something that many people probably take for granted. It's interesting to speculate how Europe would have developed without Christianity - perhaps the barbarism of the Romans would have continued unabated and we would still be watching people fight to the death now or go and watch children fed to lions for entertainment.

On the other hand there were some other undesirable parts of the Catholic church in particular that scarred the European consciousness. I don't think anyone thinks we should return to burning 'witches' and torturing people in inquisitions. The persecution of scientists has parallels in today's Muslim world where scientists and intellectuals have no hope if they wish to make anything of their lives.

So it depends on which part you focus on. I agree that athiests do not appreciate Christianity at all. When you live in countries that never had it in the history you can see how much the Christian faith softened people and gave them compassion for the poor and the weak that doesn't exist in say India.

[GenghisKhan]

(06-27-2014 04:09 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

So far everyone is focusing on what happened to the Catholics, while conveniently ignoring the Orthodox who were the richest group of people for nearly 1000 years.

The catholics were rebuilding the rubble of rome. They had mad work to do. However the Orthodox were left with the best and the brightest of old Rome in Constantinople.

They had all the works of Aristotle preserved, as well many others.

The actual enlightenment in Europe didn't start until Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1452. The Byzantine scholars fled the city and landed in Italy, and brought over 1000 years of undiscovered history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissanc...e_humanism

Again, there's simply no point in denying the importance of Christianity. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Even the most atheist professors in my philosophy department understood the simple fact that there is no Western Civilization without Christianity.

I agree. Christianity and other religions made a big play in human civilization (like in hunter-gatherer tribes and during the medieval ages).

However, my question to most posters here is do you really think religion will survive modern civilization?

Lots of posters here are talking about Islam taking over or Christianity losing grip in Western Civilization. But I think another big issue is whether any religion will survive the 21st and 22nd century. Religion is losing a big grip in America for example. I remember 1/4 young Americans are no longer practicing their religion. Wealth, secularization and modern science is killing religion.

[Sp5]

Was Christianity important because of the teachings of Christ, or because it was a surviving institution of the Empire?

By the time Rome and Byzantium fell, Christianity was a state religion in both, with churches and monasteries throughout Europe.

[AnonymousBosch]

(06-27-2014 12:11 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I expect to see more gay men join the manosphere, and this forum, as they are pushed out of progressive groups.

Pretty soon no men will be allowed in progressive groups.

Prophetic, Samseau. I was browsing the red pill subreddits this morning, and discovered there's already a gay red pill one, which still uses the phrase 'Our feminist sisters'.

Not much activity, except for two threads, and the one with the highest number of replies is the topic I'd expect from my past experiences with gays, despite everyone constantly harping on about how gay guys aren't all like that and respect boundaries:

How Do You Seduce Straight Guys?

[soup]

(06-27-2014 05:12 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 12:11 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I expect to see more gay men join the manosphere, and this forum, as they are pushed out of progressive groups.

Pretty soon no men will be allowed in progressive groups.

Prophetic, Samseau. I was browsing the red pill subreddits this morning, and discovered there's already a gay red pill one, which still uses the phrase 'Our feminist sisters'.

Not much activity, except for two threads, and the one with the highest number of replies is the topic I'd expect from my past experiences with gays, despite everyone constantly harping on about how gay guys aren't all like that and respect boundaries:

How Do You Seduce Straight Guys?

Haha - there's probably a gay version of RVF out there.. gay guys working on game to fuck straight dudes.

[AnonymousBosch]

(06-27-2014 06:40 PM)soup Wrote:  

Haha - there's probably a gay version of RVF out there.. gay guys working on game to fuck straight dudes.

Run by Gay Roosh from the Elliot Rodgers thread:

[Dusty]

^^

He holds that glass like he is jacking a cock.

Look at how feminine his hands are too. Cover everything up and just look at the hands, they look like they belong to a chick.

[soup]

And the gay version of ROK - Return of Queens.

Trending threads at the forum:
How to use baking soda for you asshole
How to get laid on grinder like a boss
The what WOULDN'T you hit it thread
Scrotum lounge
Fabulous lounge

[Dusty]

(06-27-2014 09:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

And the gay version of ROK - Return of Queens.

Trending threads at the forum:
How to use baking soda for you asshole
How to get laid on grinder like a boss
The what WOULDN'T you hit it thread
Scrotum lounge
Fabulous lounge

Sample write ups from the Approach Thread:

Approach 1:

Me: Hey
Guy1: Can I suck your cock?
Me: Ok.

Approach 2:

Me: Sup?
Guy2: Wanna fuck?
Me: Ok

Approach 3:

No words were exchanged, we just had sex.

Approach 4:

Me: Hi! I live in my parents basement, have no money, no job, and no car, and flunked high school.

Guy 4: Wanna have sex?

[Feisbook Control]

Samseau: I agree with you in the main, but some of your history is a little off. Medieval Europe (i.e. white civilisation) is estimated to have had 100-120 million people at its peak. France alone (much smaller than its current boundaries) had up to 20 million people at its peak.

I agree though that whatever survives will be ten times hardier than what lives today. The conquistadors who conquered and looted the Americas were the culmination of more than 700 years of fighting for the very survival of Christian Iberia. They were born of blood and necessity.

[infowarrior1]

Would you classify communism and socialism as an atheistic religion?

[numanist]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...veals.html

I love to see progressives at each others necks.

[AnonymousBosch]

(06-27-2014 10:05 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Would you classify communism and socialism as an atheistic religion?

I consider Progressivism simply a splinter religion of traditional-Christianity. They've just cherry-picked which parts they agree with. It's basically Ireland all over again, except one group mistakenly-believes they don't believe in religion.

I was raised hardcore Christian, and the unquestioning herd mentality of it used to drive me up the wall. As such, I recognise when people rote-repeat dogma they've applied no personal critical thought, whilst arrogantly believing their professed moral purity gives them the right to control everyone else's behaviour. The similarities in behaviour between a SJW and Catholic aren't just striking - they're identical. They're just arguing Chapter and Verse.

SJW's are simply a bunch of black clad European Women clutching their I-Pads instead of rosaries, sobbing and beating their chests in a competition to wail louder and thus seem more pious than everyone else.

When they say they're just trying to 'educate' you, they mean 'indoctrinate'. It's pointless arguing with them. They're weak-minded religious loonies, and naturally would fall to one dogmatic extreme or another, because they're incapable of being anything but a sheep. The only difference being that their ideology is set by whichever group baas the loudest to welcome them to the flock: fundamentalists or universities.

I see the universities winning: they don't require any personal effort or restraint. If someone already has a lazy mind, they'll take the path of least resistance.

[Samseau]

(06-27-2014 09:54 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Samseau: I agree with you in the main, but some of your history is a little off. Medieval Europe (i.e. white civilisation) is estimated to have had 100-120 million people at its peak. France alone (much smaller than its current boundaries) had up to 20 million people at its peak.

I agree though that whatever survives will be ten times hardier than what lives today. The conquistadors who conquered and looted the Americas were the culmination of more than 700 years of fighting for the very survival of Christian Iberia. They were born of blood and necessity.

Where are you getting those numbers man? Rome at it's peak only had 1 million.

No way your numbers are right. I agree that 4-5 million was too low. But I'm fairly certain it was not above 20 million.

[Feisbook Control]

(06-28-2014 01:36 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 09:54 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Samseau: I agree with you in the main, but some of your history is a little off. Medieval Europe (i.e. white civilisation) is estimated to have had 100-120 million people at its peak. France alone (much smaller than its current boundaries) had up to 20 million people at its peak.

I agree though that whatever survives will be ten times hardier than what lives today. The conquistadors who conquered and looted the Americas were the culmination of more than 700 years of fighting for the very survival of Christian Iberia. They were born of blood and necessity.

Where are you getting those numbers man? Rome at it's peak only had 1 million.

No way your numbers are right. I agree that 4-5 million was too low. But I'm fairly certain it was not above 20 million.

Here.

[Deluge]

(06-28-2014 01:36 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 09:54 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Samseau: I agree with you in the main, but some of your history is a little off. Medieval Europe (i.e. white civilisation) is estimated to have had 100-120 million people at its peak. France alone (much smaller than its current boundaries) had up to 20 million people at its peak.

I agree though that whatever survives will be ten times hardier than what lives today. The conquistadors who conquered and looted the Americas were the culmination of more than 700 years of fighting for the very survival of Christian Iberia. They were born of blood and necessity.

Where are you getting those numbers man? Rome at it's peak only had 1 million.

No way your numbers are right. I agree that 4-5 million was too low. But I'm fairly certain it was not above 20 million.

France alone had about 20 million people at the onset of the Black Death. It was home to 1/4 of Europe's population during the Middle Ages.

[berserk]

(06-27-2014 04:09 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

So far everyone is focusing on what happened to the Catholics, while conveniently ignoring the Orthodox who were the richest group of people for nearly 1000 years.

The catholics were rebuilding the rubble of rome. They had mad work to do. However the Orthodox were left with the best and the brightest of old Rome in Constantinople.

They had all the works of Aristotle preserved, as well many others.

The actual enlightenment in Europe didn't start until Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1452. The Byzantine scholars fled the city and landed in Italy, and brought over 1000 years of undiscovered history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissanc...e_humanism

Again, there's simply no point in denying the importance of Christianity. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Even the most atheist professors in my philosophy department understood the simple fact that there is no Western Civilization without Christianity.

Nah, I respect the role that christianity played in building a 'Europe' that defined itself as a civilization, but christianity is a foreign entity which influence has been greatly overrated.

Christianity, like jewry and islam, is a religion born of an arrid desert among warring primitive people.

The European people were pagans, their gods were if anything just archetypes, the earliest attempts at psychology. The greek tragedies were magnificent at explaining common human themes. Jung and Freud didn't seek for meaning in christianity, islam or jewry, but in fables and stories of pagan Europeans.

The Europeans had a connection to nature, they sat and watched the streams, the mountains, the abundance of life and pondered what it all meant, the beginnings of biology, chemistry and physics.

Christianity was spread through violence and deceit. The west-roman empire fell moments after adopting christianity as a gimmick. Very much like how Europe fell after adopting marxism. Lets remember Nietzsche, christianity = primordial marxism. Christ was misrepresented to the nordic people as a great warrior, sold on his epic battle with satan. Even then, it took until the 15th century for much of northern europe to be christian.

What is christianity for northern europeans, Christmas = Yuletide, Easter = Eostre, Christmas three = Ygdrasil. Northern euro christianity is nothing but repackaged paganism.

[Samseau]

(06-28-2014 02:58 AM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

(06-28-2014 01:36 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 09:54 PM)Feisbook Control Wrote:  

Samseau: I agree with you in the main, but some of your history is a little off. Medieval Europe (i.e. white civilisation) is estimated to have had 100-120 million people at its peak. France alone (much smaller than its current boundaries) had up to 20 million people at its peak.

I agree though that whatever survives will be ten times hardier than what lives today. The conquistadors who conquered and looted the Americas were the culmination of more than 700 years of fighting for the very survival of Christian Iberia. They were born of blood and necessity.

Where are you getting those numbers man? Rome at it's peak only had 1 million.

No way your numbers are right. I agree that 4-5 million was too low. But I'm fairly certain it was not above 20 million.

Here.

That's quite astounding if true. A serious population boom before the fourth crusade. But the black plague, and sacking of Constantinople did it all in.

Medieval population estimates are very difficult to accomplish, and I respect you correcting me on this. Although I still think 100 million may be too high, it's obvious that my numbers are far too simplistic and did not take into account the population booms and busts that have occurred over the centuries.

Extremely fascinating at how animal like all human populations are with huge swings up and down as various selection pressures come into play (plagues, wars, and famines).

[Feisbook Control]

Agriculture was actually fairly advanced by the late medieval period and could support a lot of people.

If Europe had had only had 20 million people, there's no way it would have withstood the onslaught of Islam. 20 million people is Australian style population density. Also, if Europe had had only 20 million people, there is no way all those Gothic cathedrals would have got built. It wasn't just the sheer number of craftsmen and labourers involved, but the whole economy and infrastructure supporting them.

It wasn't just the first stage of the Black Plague that did a lot of damage. It kept returning (albeit in less severe forms) for hundreds of years.

Quote:

According to Biraben, plague was present somewhere in Europe in every year between 1346 and 1671.

^ That's mad. Three and a quarter centuries of plague!

There were also events such as the 30 Years' War (and the greater 80 Years' War of which it was a part) and many other wars that really knocked the stuffing out of Europe between the medieval and modern periods. The 30 Years' War alone claimed one third of the population of what is modern Germany.

[kosko]

(06-27-2014 04:06 PM)soup Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 03:59 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(06-27-2014 02:49 PM)soup Wrote:  

Secular progressivism isn't a religion. There's no diety.

scorpion Wrote:

The problem with a secular religion like progressivism is that it unavoidably makes a god of man himself. They worship "equality" because equality is just another way of saying "all mankind". So progressivism is literally the worship of man.

There's no worshipping going on. I think you are getting your semantics mixed up. Worshipping is for dieties.

Both of you are a bit off.

It's the worship of "ego", "self", basically your own narcissist tendencies.

Old religions if you believe in then, or not. Basically forced humans to worship "the larger picture" that mark folks from being self-destructive and full of themselves. Instead of he inner false ego you put faith in you in the context of something larger.

Promoting "ego", promotes decadence, which promotes decay.

[Wutang]

(06-27-2014 09:14 PM)soup Wrote:  

And the gay version of ROK - Return of Queens.

Trending threads at the forum:
How to use baking soda for you asshole
How to get laid on grinder like a boss
The what WOULDN'T you hit it thread
Scrotum lounge
Fabulous lounge

10 Ways Eastern European Gay Men Are Superior to American Gay Men