[Days of Broken Arrows]

Spoke to a friend tonight about her experiences on OKC. Good-looking redhead, used to be an 9 in her day, probably a 7-8 now, but looks way younger.

Before I go any further I want to stress she is NOT a train wreck, not overweight, no kids, steady job, and looks a bit like Amy Grant. Still has nice, long red hair. Compared to a lot of women her age, she's doing pretty well looks-wise.

When I met her at 17 she was working in a shopping mall at a consumer kiosk. Guys gave her so much attention I had to compete. Things have changed and I think there's some insight here for us.

Here is what I came away with:

1). She's been on for around five months and gotten no actual dates. Or hook-ups.

2). Remember the OKC experiment where women got all those messages? That's true. But what they failed to tell us was most of those messages were on the level of "Nice tits!" So the quantity doesn't equal quality. AND (this is important) the clutter of these messages can cause decent messages to get lost, esp. when the woman in question is in a state of disgust because of this whole process.

3). More about that OKC experiment: It claimed men get few messages. But it didn't say why. So I asked her why she didn't send some messages herself? "Because I don't want to look too forward (i.e. easy) and make the wrong impression." Neither feminism nor technology will change this facet of human nature. Normal women do not want to be the aggressors.

4). Flaking is not exclusive to women. Two guys set up dates with her. Both flaked. Neither answered her "What's up?" text. She made it a point to tell me one of the guys was a "big guy" (i.e. fat) and even he stood her up.

5). This is in the DC metro area. It's not like it's rural Kentucky and the pickings are slim. There are a lot of men around.

6). Two other women I know who are a bit older had to get off Match.com because they found no one or the people they did find were complete losers (no jobs, trying to scam women). One is a tall blonde and another a brunette. I'd rate them both highly -- then and now. A fourth just gave up. A fifth (who I didn't know until today) was a friend of one and friended me out of the blue on Facebook after trying (and failing) to win my attention with some "jokes." Turns out, she gave up on Match too. Former cheerleader, still looks good. Her kids rule her out for me, but I digress.

What is happening here?

I know everyone's first impression is probably "they're just too picky," but this isn't what I'm getting. I really think the playing field does change after 35 and men have it much easier. The media is not telling the truth anymore and might have been more honest when Newsweek was writing stories about how older women were more likely to be attacked by terrorists that get married (see link for context).

What does this mean for us?

If you want to date online as an older guy, the big step seems to be setting yourself apart from the "Nice tits!" crowd. IMO the way to do this is avoid things that work in person, like the neg or compliment. Because they might be fine on their own, but will come off either nasty or pointless after a woman weeds through 50 "Show your tits!" messages. Context matters and a personalized message to show you're for real seems the best first step.

The other women I mentioned are now talking about moving from Match.com to POF or OKC. I didn't tell them that was like moving from Beverly Hills to downtown Detroit.

I also see all of this as taking a toll on these women. They seem to be in a state of crisis not just because they're dating online but because "I can't believe it's come to this" (i.e. failing even in this last resort).

If you're part of this older set and failing to engage these women, it might be their world-weariness from the process and not you. I'd urge persistence and not take it personally. I'm sure this power dynamic is reversed for guys ages 18-33 or so. And I know my anecdotal evidence does not equal "research," but these women are nice-looking enough that I think there is some truth to be found here.

[jariel]

Do women even read all the messages they get?

I mean, that's a legit question, I don't do online dating, but from where I'm sitting, I've never seen them as the type to be thorough enough to go through and see who's worth responding to and who isn't.

I think they just bask in the glow of the fact there are so many "suitors", and then throw their hands up because it's information overload.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(04-16-2014 10:33 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Do women even read all the messages they get?

I mean, that's a legit question, I don't do online dating, but from where I'm sitting, I've never seen them as the type to be thorough enough to go through and see who's worth responding to and who isn't.

I think they just bask in the glow of the fact there are so many "suitors", and then throw their hands up because it's information overload.

Yes, correct. I got the impression she didn't read them all, at least not closely. But think of it like email spam. When you get spammed from strangers you don't read everything and might let one or two real offers from people you don't know slip through the cracks.

[rudebwoy]

I am over 35 and avoid online dating like the plague.

I am in Toronto which is similar to D.C, I do much better in clubs or Starbucks on a weekend night.

I believe the OP because Starbucks is where the blind dates meet, I have seen countless crazy matches which make me think WTF.

[iknowexactly]

(04-16-2014 10:30 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

If you're part of this older set and failing to engage these women, it might be their world-weariness from the process and not you.

No, it's me all right-- I don't want them. They said "Fuck you, Betaboy" when they were optimally fertile, now are desperate to talk to me. For some reason I'm not wildly sympathetic.

Twenty-year old Filipinas are willing to have my babies and do all the housework too, bitches.

They plaintively ask me "Do you have a girlfriend? Be honest!"

(04-16-2014 10:30 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

I'd urge persistence and not take it personally. I'm sure this power dynamic is reversed for guys ages 18-33 or so. And I know my anecdotal evidence does not equal "research," but these women are nice-looking enough that I think there is some truth to be found here.

It was personal, and I took it personally, and I want them to enjoy their cats until they die and their landlords clean out their apartments and throw out their worn out, smelly vibrators

My, I'm quite miffed aren't I? lolzlzlzl.

Thank you for the well-thought-out and written anecdotes from real-life experience when Strong Independent women decide they want the guys they've been ignoring for the last 20 years.

Do I sound bitter? hahahhahahhlzoozllzlzlzllallal
I admit I am, and I need to get over it , because I don't want to treat the loyal Asian woman I want to get like shit because of my history.

As we LIVE IN ASIA and she hopefully HAS MY BABIES THERE....

Got to remember when I have a hissy fit.. "Hatred never ended by hatred.." --Buddha

[wandenreich]

(04-16-2014 10:48 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(04-16-2014 10:30 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

If you're part of this older set and failing to engage these women, it might be their world-weariness from the process and not you.

No, it's me all right-- I don't want them. They said "Fuck you, Betaboy" when they were optimally fertile, now are desperate to talk to me. For some reason I'm not wildly sympathetic.

Twenty-year old Filipinas are willing to have my babies and do all the housework too, bitches.

They plaintively ask me "Do you have a girlfriend? Be honest!"

(04-16-2014 10:30 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

I'd urge persistence and not take it personally. I'm sure this power dynamic is reversed for guys ages 18-33 or so. And I know my anecdotal evidence does not equal "research," but these women are nice-looking enough that I think there is some truth to be found here.

It was personal, and I took it personally, and I want them to enjoy their cats.

Thank you for the well-thought-out and written anecdotes from real-life experience when Strong Independent women decide they want the guys they've been ignoring for the last 20 years.

Do I sound bitter? hahahhahahhlzoozllzlzlzllallal
I admit I am, and I need to get over it , because I don't want to treat the loyal Asian woman I want to get like shit because of my history.

As we LIVE IN ASIA and she HAS MY BABIES THERE....

to all the older women out there, karma is a bitch, ain't it?

[iknowexactly]

Broken Arrow, just because of my unhinged rant don't think I didn't appreciate your excellent and thoughtful post.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(04-16-2014 11:07 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Broken Arrow, just because of my unhinged rant don't think I didn't appreciate your excellent post.

I get where you're coming from. And I left out the bad decisions these women made that got them to this place.

99 percent of the time it involved "following their hearts" (i.e. dating losers). If men followed their dicks like women followed their hearts, we'd all be fleeced by whores and strippers.

Nor did I offer an alternative, but I think it's self-evident. You have your Filipinos. As for me, there is a reason my circle of Czech and Russian friends keeps expanding. American women are more a pit stop than a destination at this point.

[iknowexactly]

(04-16-2014 11:12 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(04-16-2014 11:07 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Broken Arrow, just because of my unhinged rant don't think I didn't appreciate your excellent post.

I get where you're coming from. And I left out the bad decisions these women made that got them to this place.

99 percent of the time it involved "following their hearts" (i.e. dating losers). If men followed their dicks like women followed their hearts, we'd all be fleeced by whores and strippers.

Nor did I offer an alternative, but I think it's self-evident. You have your Filipinos. As for me, there is a reason my circle of Czech and Russian friends keeps expanding. American women are more a pit stop than a destination at this point.

Actually I fucked up with Slavic girls in the 90s just like the American bitches fucked up with me. I was there in 1993 the day they elected Yeltsin.

It was like a candy store, college grad white guy had a huge White God Factor.

I just didn't have the money to keep going back easily and didn't realize the window would close. Internet and Facewhore elevated their expectations through the roof.

Now my experience in Ukraine over the last three years indicates I can get better quality in Asia due to being over 50.

[Flavius Aetius]

DOBA--Your friend seems like the personification of female hypergamy in action. By your own assessment she was a 9 when she was younger and is still attractive at 37--yet despite all this she is still single. Wonder why? Yeah I would guess she has too high expectations and is too picky.

Having been on OKC for almost a year I have found it pretty disappointing both in results and quality. It is simply a numbers game--the more messages you send out the the more hits you get. I have varied my mass messages numerous times even going so far as to comment on something directly from their profile. No change in hit rate. I never say "Nice tits" or some garbage one-liner either. The response rate is usually 1 out of 15-20 messages sent.

After talking to the girls I have meet through OKC (Los Angeles) I have concluded the following:

1)They use it more as a tool for self-validation rather than to actually meet men. They love all of the attention and messages from men even when they ignore/delete the messages.
2)It is a free meal/drink ticket whenever they want. Hamster bored? She can always get a free drink from one of the 10 men who messaged her during the week and maybe a free dinner if she plays her cards right.
3)They may already be in a relationship yet still maintain their profile--point being they don't really take OKC or online dating too seriously. This would explain the high non-response/flake rate.
4)They usually have some kind of anti-social personality disorder which prevents them from meeting eligible men in the real world.
5) They have incredibly high expectations/standards (hypergamy) relative to their status in life.

I appreciate your insightful post, but I have no sympathy for these 30 something women "who can't find a man" online. They are simply not trying.

[StrikeBack]

Quote:

3). More about that OKC experiment: It claimed men get few messages. But it didn't say why. So I asked her why she didn't send some messages herself? "Because I don't want to look too forward (i.e. easy) and make the wrong impression." Neither feminism nor technology will change this facet of human nature. Normal women do not want to be the aggressors.

These old women on online dating sites are not normal. If they were normal, they'd already be married with a few teenage kids.

So they should get off their arses and do some leg work.

I'm not in that age group, but if I were and I still had to do all the work to get a date with a woman, I'd go for a much younger one. Why work hard for a 37 y.o woman?

[Oaktree]

This story doesn't ring true to me. It rings true in the sense of a woman complaining that at 37 her life is harder now than it was when she was 23. It's a fantasy.

In America, the value of men is very low compared to women. Since many of us have spent a lot of time outside the U.S., we realize how weird this is. For a guy who lives here, it's just normal.

I do believe the relative value of men to women is falling in most of the world. By that I mean men are becoming less valuable.

Let me toss out a few anecdotes. Where I am in north Texas, I see a lot of young guys < 30 who look like they work out at the gym who are married to 200-250 lb. women and appear grateful to have even that. Some I know and some I don't. I'm not originally from Texas, but I have never seen so many fat young women in my life as here.

Jumping age brackets, I know at least 5 women over 50 who have met and married guys from online dating sites. They were all reasonably attractive by American standards (i.e. low standards) for older women but all of them either had drinking problems, drug problems, attitude problems or overweight. Out of those 5, 3 have been younger than the man by 3-10 years. All 5 men earned more money than the woman. In one case, the woman earned more than the man but quit working as soon as the marriage date approached.

None had trouble meeting men online. One met over 70 men. They did have trouble meeting men who met their standards which required a man who had a lot more to offer than they had to contribute. In all cases, they were able to marry guys who had more to offer. Even then, only one was satisfied.

In one case, the woman was 7 years older than the guy who was worth a few mil. and she had a lot of debt with minimal assets. Heavy drinker and drug user.

The guy had money but he was a fundamentalist Christian with a very naive view of women even though he had been married and divorced one time.

[RawGod]

I'm 40 and I wouldn't go near a well-preserved woman over 35. Maybe I'm missing out, but I just don't bother.

[Bacchus]

I'm curious about the specific statistics. How many visitors a day does she get? How many matches on quickmatch? Delicious Tacos has written about this before. My profile gets an unsolicited message (or two) a week, mostly from unattractive girls.

I'm guessing she's still a red dot on the site. The messages she receives may not be well-written, and a majority of them could be crude come-ons like "nice tits," but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have offers for sex. A clever opener and a spam message essentially mean the same thing. They both boil down to 'wanna fuck?'

The terms of the offer might not be acceptable, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have options. It's just that the options are unacceptable to her because her past has ruined her. She may be expecting more subtlety in the approach or better men, but if she were willing to compromise I'm sure she could find a long-term partner. It's just that she doesn't want any of the men who could possibly fill that role.

And if she wants casual sex, I'm sure there are many attractive men who will rush over to her apartment for a night of no-effort sex. Basically, this woman can hold out a series of hoops for men to jump through and need to lower her standards, possibly significantly, or she can offer herself out with minimal investment required and still pull high-value men. But she cannot do both, as she had done in the past.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

(04-17-2014 12:31 AM)Bacchus Wrote:  

I'm curious about the specific statistics. How many visitors a day does she get? How many matches on quickmatch? Delicious Tacos has written about this before. My profile gets an unsolicited message (or two) a week, mostly from unattractive girls.

I'm guessing she's still a red dot on the site. The messages she receives may not be well-written, and a majority of them could be crude come-ons like "nice tits," but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have offers for sex. A clever opener and a spam message essentially mean the same thing. They both boil down to 'wanna fuck?'

The terms of the offer might not be acceptable, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have options. It's just that the options are unacceptable to her because her past has ruined her. She may be expecting more subtlety in the approach or better men, but if she were willing to compromise I'm sure she could find a long-term partner. It's just that she doesn't want any of the men who could possibly fill that role.

And if she wants casual sex, I'm sure there are many attractive men who will rush over to her apartment for a night of no-effort sex. Basically, this woman can hold out a series of hoops for men to jump through and need to lower her standards, possibly significantly, or she can offer herself out with minimal investment required and still pull high-value men. But she cannot do both, as she had done in the past.

Well, she can't get a date which is what she wanted. And I'd think the guys who set up dates and blew her off would at last want to meet her if they wanted sex.

What might also be happening is these guys get easier offers from women in the 4-6 range. And they just go for the easy bang and blow off women who make men take them out, which now I guess constitutes hoop-jumping.

But what does that say about the sexual revolution? That the complete lack of morality of the sluttier women make it tougher for ones that seek relationships since men can get easier access now? If so, that's a good argument for women not to have supported -- and one I think Phyllis Schlafy once made.

I'm sure she's ruling out Omegas and weirdos, but the main point is that the regular guys who took to her when she was working at that information desk at 17 aren't willing to put in the same effort. A commentary on age and technology or both.

[void]

If I would look to start a family, 30 is the maximum age I would accept for a woman. Childless and above 35 is good enough for a fuckbuddy or casual relationship

[CJ_W]

(04-16-2014 10:30 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  


. I really think the playing field does change after 35 and men have it much easier.

I wanted to Emphasize this, because a lot of guys (even here)don't seem to get it. As a man, as you age, your value SKYROCKETS(if you have your shit together) Thing is, this doesnt mean just with the over 35 crowd, but with the barely legal 16(depending on location/country as this is an international forum)-24 crowd of women who you really should be playing the filed with.

Thing is, a lot of these women past age 30 give so much trouble to guys during the dating phase that it isnt worth it. (which is why I think your friend(s) are most likely leaving out some major parts to the story).

EVEN IF they were great women, no-bullshit, generally happy people, willing to cook, clean, and be a woman for her man etc etc . . . The threat of divorce nearly bankrupting men with their shit together (not to mention the trouble with being able to see their kids thanks to the divorce court system here) is enough to keep the "good" men who are smart enough to have their lives together at age 35, AND be alpha enough to keep the attraction going a lot longer than average - away from:

1)Older women who may want marriage/kids
2)Marriage/kids/serious relationships in the U.S. and other western countries
3)Rolling the dice (in which the odds are extreemely against you) in finding a woman in the west to marry and raise a family with, who wont screw you over at her whim. (Divorce rates over 60% with the laws the way they are now = smart men. . .GOOD men, not taking the gamble for "love")

Personally I think if a woman hasn't had kids by 30 now in this society, she's lost. Thing is, it's not really her fault! This is the fenimist Endgame. . .and as much as I hate talking about/complaining about feminism (I'm pretty sure this is my first post on the subject) Feminism is actually destroying the lives of women, the very women they sought to liberate.

Thing is, their "liberation" from:

A) Keeping themselves attractive throuhgout their marriage
B) making the home for their husbands and families
C) Keeping THEIR end of the bargin and giving sex to the husband on demand (the agreement for requiring a man to only have sex with her)

Has put them in another set of shackles:

NATURE.

You can't beat nature, no matter how many laws, movements, social, and moral pressures you put on people, Nature always wins. Feminism pretty much has tried and failed to stop nature, and these innocent(I say innocent because they grew up brainwashed away from nature)women, are paying the price.

What are we. . .are you going to do about it?

Movements, are not the answer - The manosphere is really a failed movement in the sense that it has really moved from the core of what they should be doing - bring men back to nature as men and is poised to go "Mainstream" and lose all vestiges of its former core.

Affecting this problem from the outside isn't going to cut it.

The only way to solve this problem is for each Man to take advantage of their OWN nature and:

A)Bang as many young, nubile women they want
B)Work on acquiring the money, wealth and lifestyle the desire
C)doing A and B while ignoring sad stories of western women losing out, ignore society, getting rid of people in their lives that would not approve of their life style and cause problems, and surronding themselves with the people, places, and things they enjoy.

The rest will eventually fall into place.

Men will understand that you can date tons of young women untill you basically die if you keep your shit together. As you age, life becomes easier for you...if you let it.

I personally dont intend to marry any woman from the U.S. canade, any western nation. IF I ever decide to have a family, It would be in my late 50's early 60's if at all. It's just not worth it in this current society yet.

IF divorce laws were to ever change and divorce.custody courts were changed to truly want to help BOTH members of the marriage/family. THEN things will get better, but really, that's not my fight to change that. Nature will eventually change it. Either easily, or with extreme destructive force.

[Noah]

My experience after meeting many girls online is that most girls aren't meeting that many guys, and if they are, they are not fucking them. I hear a lot of "you're only the first or second guy I met on here". Of course they could be lying, but I've heard this way too many times for it to be a coincidence. Two specific examples:

One girl (a 7) went on 6 dates in a row the first week she got on OkCupid. She did absolutely nothing with the first 5 guys she met, and then banged me on the 6th night. Afterwards she told me that "you were the only one I wanted to sleep with". When I asked her why, she said, "because you were more aggressive than all the other guys". This leads me to believe that a lot of guys take girls out to dinner and don't bother escalating at all, leading girls to get frustrated with the whole thing and give up.

Another girl (solid 8) told me she used OkCupid for something like two and a half years. During that time, she met 15 guys and only banged two of them. I asked her how many messages she would get and she said about 30 a week. So let's do the math here:

30 messages/week x 125 weeks (in 2.5 years) = 3,750 messages

Want to meet up with her? 15/3,750 x 100 = 0.4% chance of meeting her

Want to bang her? 2/3,750 x 100 = 0.05% chance of banging her

So yeah, online dating is a huge numbers game. Which makes it all the more impressive when you see guys like soup killing it on there.

[CJ_W]

(04-17-2014 01:42 AM)Noah Wrote:  

So yeah, online dating is a huge numbers game. Which makes it all the more impressive when you see guys like soup killing it on there.

It is a huge numbers game, that's why you don't look at their profiles. Just do a search for women under 24, message the youngest ones first. Something simple and do that till you get hits, the focus should be on your profile and picture. BE as vanilla with your profile as possible without being beta, your profile is your net that you are casting, make it as wide as possible. Only after a woman has set up a date with you should you read her profile. One day Ill have to write a guide on all of this...eventually.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

Look - the demographics in the Western world are completely bonkers!

Immigration creates an enormous influx of men - with enormous I mean a couple percent in male population extra - this is enough to make a fat 5 feel like a slim 9. The Alphas and good-looking Betas get all the good poon while the rest of Game-less chodes are left sending hundreds of online ads. I see the same thing happening in the West of the EU.

Eastern Europe is better and Ukraine, Russia or Belarus are best, because they don't get much immigration and the natural law of demographics evens out the sexes or even tilts it to men's favour in UKR, RUS and BEL. Plus indigenous men are way less attractive than in the Western countries and you have an innate advantage as a Westerner just by nationality alone.

A 37-year-old woman in the West has only difficulty finding a guy because of her enormous expectations - Alpha Widow in most cases or media-brain-washed-Crazy.

GAME AND BECOMING AN EXCITING ALPHA IS THE ONLY ANSWER GENTLEMEN!

[funkyzeit]

No man should give a shit about them when they hit 28 or 29. They didn't give a shit about most men when they were in their prime.

[Biologist]

Nothing warms my heart more than hearing about a woman in her 30s having trouble dating.

Sweet justice!

Women have more than enough time to find a suitable husband whilst they're in their biological prime (18 to ~29). During this period, she would've gotten THOUSANDS of offers from decent guys who would have been willing to settle down with her.

However, she decided to develop her career, travel the world and ride the cock carousel instead.

Now it's their turn to feel what it's like to have a hard time finding someone.

[Icarus]

(04-16-2014 10:48 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

No, it's me all right-- I don't want them. They said "Fuck you, Betaboy" when they were optimally fertile, now are desperate to talk to me. For some reason I'm not wildly sympathetic.

"If the kitten didn't want me, I don't want the cat."

(04-16-2014 10:48 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Thank you for the well-thought-out and written anecdotes from real-life experience when Strong Independent women decide they want the guys they've been ignoring for the last 20 years.

Hear the battle cry of the strong, independent woman:

[Foolsgo1d]

Urgh, I had the unfortunate luck to bite the bullet and take a date with a 37-38 year old. She looked good but boy does she have standards.

I am 6'2 and she had this "perfect" guy in mind who stood at 6'4".

I delved a little deeper and found out this was a doorman who was 6'4" and she was obsessed with him.

I also found out she walked her cat on a leash, I shit you not. The look of defeat on her face when I told her there will be no second date was an eye-opener. She basically took a shit on my lap and expected something more?

Another example would be those women you meet on a night out who are in the 5'7"-5'10" range. They are seeking guys well over my height and become lonely as a result.

I guess the smaller girls are more aggressive and snatch the tall guys up.

I dont have any sympathy for these women.

[samsamsam]

DOBA,

Thanks for the share. Interesting perspective. You always write in a clear and engaging style man. Much appreciated.

Foolsgo1d, I once knew a woman who had a long ass list of requirements. A symmetrical face, yada yada, looking for perfection. Over 40 now, nothing for tits. Crazy. I lost touch with her, thankfully. But it is amazing what they consider right/acceptable in their worlds.

While DOBA has shared insights about some women that might be in the normal/sane category (once again much appreciated.) Most are not. Worse yet, the insane ones draw mass attention and make it more acceptable to be less sane. They pull normal people toward their way of thinking/existing and not the other way around. If that makes sense. An insane person would never consider a sane person's perspective. But a sane person sees an insane person and thinks the grass is greener there and starts doing shit like getting tattoos.