[kapitaw]

I think what could be helpful to a lot of new members on this site is a thread in which the established and experienced members define "game". There are a lot of great resources on this site for lifestyle improvement and that has been the main benefit I've taken away from RVF. However, sometimes I find the game subforum to be too specific and without members ever truly creating a consensus or manifesto on what game is all about. There are posts about how to score on online dating, approaches, notches, date recipes, and a lot of threads detailing the decline of modern American women.

I'm not sure whether I agree with this thread or not and that's partly because I'm not sure I know what people mean when they say "game" anymore. In my opinion and experience, lifestyle improvement is more than making money, being in good health, having a strong sense of style, etc. It's also about overcoming your fears and insecurities, learning to relate and connect to people, and being able to put your best effort forth in whatever situations you encounter. Isn't that essentially game?

So I'd like to hear from some of you guys, what is game? Is it simply push-pull, non-pedestalization, teasing, cockyness, and a bunch of other terms that have been beaten to death throughout the internet? Let's say you have your lifestyle down and handled. How does game differ from confidence and social skills? I've seen some great breakdowns on this site that really capture game such as this one and a post by Hencredible Casanova that I can't find. I know there are other good outlines by Roissy, Roosh, and others. But how would this forum define game? It can be a long datasheet or a sentence, but I'd be interested to see how different members define it.

[Christian McQueen]

(03-20-2014 07:26 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Like Christian mentioned maybe this should be posted in the newbie section.

I think it comes across as clickbate for the people who have been around a little while and have already seen many of these topics covered (and then some) by established members.

I thought Roosh was going to cover advertising/links but I for one find it hard to debate a subject when one party has a financial interest in a certain outcome. I am glad the Scotion never had an ebook link for making money in Canada, It would have only made me question his motives. Same with westcoast -he is giving up his valuable to time to post his advice for free. I can debate and trust his advice to be motivated by furthering everyone's knowledge.

It is hard to trust these threads serve a purely informative motive when they're are 7 links for products under your name Christian. Even Roosh lays back on his products and lets people seek them out.

Maybe the newbie section is a better place for threads that have already been covered/ cause endless debating.

That's a low blow.

I've provided thousands of posts and multiple articles on ROK and tons of Data Sheets for absolutely free and because I am open to helping newbies with Game. This forum has provided value in my life and in return I have NEVER been stingy with providing what I know.

There's not "7 links to products either". Theres

-1 link to ROK

-1 Link to my Text Guide

-1 link to a book

-1 link to my free blog

-1 link to my Twitter

So out of the "7" links, I have only 2 product links.

Let's read before making accusations.

[WestCoast]

Quote:

Atlantic - that post from Hooligan Harry is exactly my angle and how I'm living. So, when I say it is important to work on self, it isn't that I'm dismissive of game, it is just that they become one in the same if you focus on building yourself. I tend to be doing quite alright, and I don't have to do 1000s approaches to do it. Thanks for sharing.

Anonymous, I am on mobile but go and find a post titled

"21 ways rich people think"

That was his best post IMHO.

I know you're legit and I didn't even bother reading more than 5 of your posts before throwing you a shout.

You know your shit my brotha! Glad to see you haven't peaced out yet! Keep on doing what you're doing and don't let the pussy take you down!

Many a good men done dere been taken down by the tail ha!

[Atlantic]

^^^

That's my point. People will seek out your products and ebook on the value you have posted alone.
I have reviewed your products positively in the past - even starting an Alpha playboy book review thread. I like your posts and I listen to your podcasts.

What I am saying is that I think your amount of links and starting threads like this take away from the value you offer not add to it.

I am sure you had good intentions but this thread seems like complete click bait. Your name is in the very title.

I have talked to several other high value posters and they had mentioned a similar feeling. Lay back on the links and self promotion and people will seek out your products on their own merit. That's said as a friend not as a dig.

I appreciate your contribution and I am trying to add value to your business.

[Roosh]

3 day ban for Atlantic. Click report if you want a moderator to review a thread instead of calling out another member with subjective claims.

[anonymous123]

Here is another way of looking at it:

- If you develop solid sales skills, it doesn't take long to translate these skills into "game"
- This is no different than the "sales vs education" debate. I guy with no education will say sales is better. A guy with a high end education that is a complete nerd will advocate education and look down on sales. A guy that knows sales and has a high end education can clean house.
- Having both can help you build a solid business as well (please don't drop Bill Gates as counter example here)

It is funny to always see the extremes:
- Millionaire with private jet that is a chump
- Broke ass with mad PUA skills

[Christian McQueen]

I'll leave the the thread with this email I literally received today with the name deleted to protect his identity.

"A few months ago I got dumped by my girlfriend of almost 3 years. I was lost, I hadn't wanted to go out and chase tail forever it seemed like. All I wanted to do was get back my "special girl".

That is, until I discovered your site. I have read every article on there, and scoured ReturnofKings for your articles, and others.

Sir you have changed my life, I went from being a pitiful, depressed loser to going out at night fully expecting to get laid. Your style, lifestyle, and most of all: game tips have been indispensable in bettering myself as a man. I'm nowhere near the level of an alpha playboy, but I am well on my way. I don't mean to be a kiss ass but dammit man you changed my life, and I am forever grateful. I look forward to reading more of your work."

But I'm just making threads for "click-bait". Right.

I'm taking a break from the forum of my own doing. If anyone needs to reach me, you know where to find my email.

[anonymous123]

WC - oh, I'm not getting taken down by the tail anytime soon! I thought I already confessed that I had a VERY expensive divorce and now don't get to see my son nearly enough.

My main therapy for myself is actually stumbling across this board and realizing there is a whole community of like minded people. I've packed my Kindle with most of Roosh's stuff, but now that I've burned through it am reading stuff from the "those who bought this book also read...".

I can honestly say that I don't read any of this stuff for PUA tips, I feel like whatever I'm doing seems to be working and really have no need to make adjustments (but, see how it works for others). I see the PUA guys as a sales coach, those of us really good at sales don't need a coach, but those that aren't good at it will benefit from a coach.

My main benefit has been realizing just how messed up things have become for the man that gets suckered into "manning up", and as such I'm a junkie for reading anything about red pill philosophy.

[WestCoast]

^ha this is your personal theme song. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

http://youtu.be/fm660vIn8Tg

----

If you guys learned nothing from this thread on game and lifestyle.

Remember this.

Be careful who you take advice from, more likely than not, your life will be like theirs

Luckily i can tell who is trolling and who is not and who I won't listen to on certain topics

[samsamsam]

This is what I sometimes find annoying about internet forums. Yes, some guys may be pitching something, just don't buy it then if you don't want to. No need to start going after someone because he is saying something you don't like or agree with. Or question someone that has been repped and vouched for. I am not sayng blindly follow, but geesh the guy has over a 100 rep points. Give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have met and hung out with McQueen a couple of times. He is solid and legit. He has posted a ton of useful articles. Dagonet and McQueen provide an entertaining and informational podcast. Many people have repped him and met him, check his reps. Other respected individuals have read his books and have enjoyed them.

I know people pm him for info and he is generous with it.

This happens to be his life and he is good at this stuff, I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to make some coins from the knowledge that he had to earn. He should just give everything away? I remember the krauser thread, people griping about a $100 book, don't buy it if you don't want to.

Arguing to argue seems like a very poor use of time. Some do it because it makes them feel better, I have never understood that. Others debate to grow, I can respect that.

Find the path that works for you, combine what you like, throw in some coconut oil, acv and ice and hit the blend button.

Nothing works for everyone, but if someone can get you to look at something from a new angle, he has done you a favor by opening up a new possibility. You may not agree with it, fine, don't follow it. But if you resist because you don't wanna change purely from a "no one is going to tell me what to do attitude" well that doesn't serve you, what else are you missing because you refuse to be open?

McQueen is in the trenches he deals with hot chicks that a lot of you guys would love to bang, he is just trying to lay down some notes from the front lines.

In the end, I think it is a combo of things. Pick your path that works for you, but don't be closed off because you don't want to hear something that you may not have as much experience with. You will miss out in life if you are not open to new experiences/ideas.

[Avon Barksdale]

Mcqueen does self promote but, he backs it up constantly by dropping countless bits knowledge for a lot of us guys just starting out in game and, unsure of themselves in regards to women.

The man is no schlub, he is a sensei.

[Kaizen]

If someone is selling a product and it's legit, Id like to know about it.

It's up to each person to decide what to bite on.

From his posts to the podcast Ive recently checked out, I like what I'm hearing. Keep it up.

[rudebwoy]

McQueen - I enjoy your posts and don't mind your self promotion, because a lot of men need the advice that is being given.
Sadly, the forum has attracted a lot of Trolls lately who start stupid threads.
For what it's worth, I hope you keep spreading the gospel.

[Seth_Rose]

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. I thought the post was phenomenal. So much so that I gave McQueen a rep point that is LOOONNGGG overdue. The idea that lifestyle can get you laid has been growing in popularity lately, as it should. There is no doubt that having an awesome lifestyle can get you girls, but Game is critical and his OP shows why, but a lot of guys forget about that, including myself.

CMQ has dropped numerous datasheets and made a ton of awesome and helpful threads, never asking for a dime. If he wants to post a product in his sig, as long as that is cool with Roosh than it should be cool with everybody.

[WestCoast]

Who the hell cares if someone promotes on here isn't that roosh's call?

Meh that's irrelevant to me it's not my house.

It's a signature. That's like complaining about someone's screen name.

Just ignore it if you don't like it.

[Gringuito]

(03-20-2014 07:47 PM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

- Millionaire with private jet that is a chump

Now that's getting personal

[WestCoast]

^ I laughed out loud, good one.

[anonymous123]

Good to see you again Grunguito!

[Moma]

(03-20-2014 06:51 PM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

WC: "We fucked the same chick I don't care at all."

^Thats not my point because this guy providing her with a lifestyle ISN'T fucking her.

The point is don't think that a Lifestyle ALONE is enough to be fucking dimes left and right. The only way a wealthy guy is banging dimes consistently with NO GAME, is a guy playing the provider/Sugar Daddy.

Guaranteed.

Isn't banging dimes a level of provider anyway? If you hook a lizard up with free drinks cos you know someone or you cover a meal and then bang her, didn't you pay something?

So if someone has millions and it cost him 12K to bang a lizard, it hardly dented his wallet so didn't you both essentially play provider?

Just playing devil's advocate cos I agree with your game proposal being an essential component to lifestyle (unless one is asexual or a eunuch).

[WestCoast]

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

Print out HH's post. Read it once, twice, three times, four times and a fucking fifth.

If you read it once every six months and you learn something new, you're on the right track.

If his post makes "less and less sense" according to your reality or you read it the same every single time..., start steering and driving the car in a different direction. Immediately.

***yes you need "game" again I over analyzed the post***
The amount needed is greatly exaggerated on here though. Look at the advice of anon, vicious etc. don't even listen to me.

[Hotwheels]

(03-20-2014 07:47 PM)anonymous123 Wrote:  

- If you develop solid sales skills, it doesn't take long to translate these skills into "game"

I have a post around here from a looonnngggg time ago about that.

Sales IS game.

And you are selling yourself all day, every day whether you are considered a "salesman" or not.

Those that sell themselves the best do the best in life and business.

Those that can't sell themselves or have nothing to offer dig ditches.

[AneroidOcean]

(03-20-2014 11:35 PM)Hotwheels Wrote:  

I have a post around here from a looonnngggg time ago about that.

Sales IS game.

And you are selling yourself all day, every day whether you are considered a "salesman" or not.

Those that sell themselves the best do the best in life and business.

Those that can't sell themselves or have nothing to offer dig ditches.

Really glad to see your posts in this thread.

I think that it's disingenuous to the game concepts to say that you mainly work on lifestyle with minimal attention to game (as well as the opposite).

Lifestyle will absolutely help you when it comes to picking up girls.

Game will absolutely help you when it comes to picking up girls.

Do you know what the beauty is?

There is a LARGE component of building your lifestyle, it's called game.

There is a LARGE component of having the ultimate game, it's called lifestyle.

Both together, you will kill it in life.

Isn't that what McQueen and WestCoast and WCW (and others) are advocating, really?

The difference is only in how people define what they really want as their lifestyle.

It's not just money for some
It's not just pussy for others
Happiness is what we all ultimately want, we just define it based on our own goals.

P.S. Also, just to clarify, when I say that building your lifestyle requires a significant amount of game:

This is perhaps the single biggest thing I see missing from WestCoast's argument for lifestyle, that building that kind of lifestyle actually incorporates a lot of game, just not necessarily the portion of game involving getting pussy. We've talked plenty on these forums about how you can use game in the workplace and in other aspects of your life. I think this argument is a little moot when you look at it this way.

P.P.S. I also agree with WestCoast with regards to priorities changing as your income/lifestyle opportunies change. I look forward to utilizing his advice as well as the other great members advice on this board as money is definitely my weakest area (and I'm not even that great at game). I am grateful and excited that there's this resource for us and hope to meet and enrich others lives from this forum as you all have mine.

[soup]

The reactions in this thread are shit tests.

[Kieran]

(03-20-2014 07:28 PM)Christian McQueen Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 07:26 PM)Atlantic Wrote:  

Like Christian mentioned maybe this should be posted in the newbie section.

I think it comes across as clickbate for the people who have been around a little while and have already seen many of these topics covered (and then some) by established members.

I thought Roosh was going to cover advertising/links but I for one find it hard to debate a subject when one party has a financial interest in a certain outcome. I am glad the Scotion never had an ebook link for making money in Canada, It would have only made me question his motives. Same with westcoast -he is giving up his valuable to time to post his advice for free. I can debate and trust his advice to be motivated by furthering everyone's knowledge.

It is hard to trust these threads serve a purely informative motive when they're are 7 links for products under your name Christian. Even Roosh lays back on his products and lets people seek them out.

Maybe the newbie section is a better place for threads that have already been covered/ cause endless debating.

That's a low blow.

I've provided thousands of posts and multiple articles on ROK and tons of Data Sheets for absolutely free and because I am open to helping newbies with Game. This forum has provided value in my life and in return I have NEVER been stingy with providing what I know.

There's not "7 links to products either". Theres

-1 link to ROK

-1 Link to my Text Guide

-1 link to a book

-1 link to my free blog

-1 link to my Twitter

So out of the "7" links, I have only 2 product links.

Let's read before making accusations.

The thing is, if people just went out a lot, everything you say would ring true, and there wouldn't be any need to question it.

Again, to avoid getting into more arguments, I'm not saying it's wise to focus on game at the expense of everything else; we all know looks, money, and game, all matter, and McQueen went to great lengths to spell that out in the OP. I'm pretty sure the point he was trying to make was that lifting weights, dressing well, and being in a good financial situation, are not the panacea that they've recently been made out to be on the forum. Game still matters, and takes significant time and effort to get good.

[MisterFresh]

Very interesting thread.

In my personal experience, going from being a virgin with huge limiting beliefs to a guy with "baseline game" as you say, was a full-time job for a few months. I had to go through all the newbie stages, from overcoming approach anxiety, to dealing with last minute resistance, before I could think of myself as having moderate game. And by that I mean that I can approach, and if the girl is into me, not fuck it up. About six months to a year, going out three or four times per week, often until 4 or 5 AM, I think I needed at least that to change my world view and my opinion of myself, and my belief of what is possible and what is not.

To change something so deep, you need full immersion in a new way of life. In my opinion, 5 hours a week is not enough if you're a total noob. In that time, you will just get a few numbers that will flake on you, you won't even have a chance to get to the "date" stage, not to mention LMR and close. I think it's worth it to go full-time to create momentum, if you are a beginner. When you begin, the only way to fight neediness is to have several prospects in your pipeline simultaneously. I needed the constant rejections because they gave me the rage to close. 5 hours a week, I'd still be a virgin.

I also know many guys who are good earners, have status and decent looks, and can't close. Main reason is that all this success has inflated their ego, but the most important thing for success with girls is to handle rejection gracefully and give up your ego. And now that they have a demanding job, it would be impossible for them to go full-time for a few months to step into red-pill reality. During my full-time period, game was my life and I could not focus on anything else. It was during college and my grades suffered for a few semesters, but all in all it was totally worth it.

So I have to side with CMQ on this.

Also, good for you if you are a top earner. Sure it should be an objective to succeed professionally. But in this day and age, we all know that high paying jobs are scarce. Even if you are talented and give it your all, you are not guaranteed to succeed. Should you then give up and not try getting laid?

WestCoast posts are interesting because they show us an example of what the "next level" is, what we should be aiming for. But realistically we all know that this lifestyle is only open to a small minority of "winners of globalization". Most guys will have to do what they can with average looks, average income, and limited access. Game will help you get the most from what your current, real potential is.