[Acute Angle]

(08-12-2013 11:01 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(08-12-2013 10:05 PM)calihunter Wrote:  

how do you know that the girl you just instadated and kissed at the end of it did not come from giving her restaurant cook fuck buddy a blowie? ever have a lunch quickie with a girl? what if she went and got instadated right on the way back? You never own them. just rent em

Don't you kind of think whores are more likely to have that than non pros?

Fisto, this is inconsistent. Pretty sure in your SEA thread you said you shored quite a few pros, so you seem to have no problem with kissing and fucking pros who may have been fucked in all orifices by another guy an hour before meeting you. You just declined to pay to fuck them.

And didn't you say you rawdogged most of the girls? Pros too?

[Acute Angle]

(08-13-2013 10:52 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Fisto, Hefner is one example among many. I could rattle of a list of celebs or power players who are fairly well known users of escorts. I doubt they are losing any sleep over it.

Berlusconi for one, who gets a lot of praise on here. He's still a john, just a very rich one who can sanitise the appearance of his whore-mongering.

[Duke Castile]

(08-13-2013 02:12 PM)Acute Angle Wrote:  

(08-12-2013 11:01 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(08-12-2013 10:05 PM)calihunter Wrote:  

how do you know that the girl you just instadated and kissed at the end of it did not come from giving her restaurant cook fuck buddy a blowie? ever have a lunch quickie with a girl? what if she went and got instadated right on the way back? You never own them. just rent em

Don't you kind of think whores are more likely to have that than non pros?

Fisto, this is inconsistent. Pretty sure in your SEA thread you said you shored quite a few pros, so you seem to have no problem with kissing and fucking pros who may have been fucked in all orifices by another guy an hour before meeting you. You just declined to pay to fuck them.

And didn't you say you rawdogged most of the girls? Pros too?

There's nothing inconsistent, if this guy's issue is worrying about other men's body fluids then he can minimize it by not fucking pros. I don't give a damn and yeah I raw dogged all the time.

And no, it wasn't a matter of just declining to pay them.

[Virtus]

Comrade Fisto. A shore having her orifices filled with other men's body fluids has little to do with whether you paid or shored

[Duke Castile]

Vicious, of course jacking off while your'e having sex with a girl is not bad for your game.

And I don't remember ever saying someone "SHOULD" be ashamed for banging a whore, if I did, that is not my main point (I would be ashamed personally). What I said was that giving up, and giving into paying for sex, is bad for your game.

Maybe these power players Vicious is talking about don't care, maybe they do.

No one on this board is one of those guys so it's a moot point. Those men's confidence is bolstered by other successes that bleed over enough to make them not give a shit about their abilities to seduce women or they don't want to be bothered with the trouble, good for them.

Everyone here has acknowledged that you are constantly tightening up your game, your INNER GAME.

As far as jacking it, there's a whole tread here covering why it's bad to masterbate. Lowering your testosterone for one. Conversely, fucking a real woman raises your T.

You guys don't have to believe me. Go fuck all the pros you want. There's just a disconnect here I can't bridge.

Its the same kind of disconnect that happens when guys say "no way is that guy fucking that many girls".

Ok, well unless you've got my penis I guess you'll either have to take my word for it or think I'm lying.

[Vicious]

The jacking off on a girl was all jest, couldn't help myself. I knew what you meant, though I disagree on the black and white on it.

[Duke Castile]

(08-13-2013 03:40 PM)calihunter Wrote:  



Comrade Fisto. A shore having her orifices filled with other men's body fluids has little to do with whether you paid or shored

I was addressing a separate issue. It thought that was obvious.

[Duke Castile]

(08-13-2013 03:47 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

The jacking off on a girl was all jest, couldn't help myself. I knew what you meant, though I disagree on the black and white on it.

I can't believe you would troll me like that, et tu brute? lol

http://boldanddetermined.com/2011/10/20/...rnet-porn/

Not exactly a science journal but accurate in my estimation.

[daygamebrah]

Has anyone heard of the term "insourcing"? It's when you learn how to do things for yourself, instead of paying someone else. For example, if you have a toilet problem, then instead of hiring a plumber you google the problem and learn how to fix it.

Pros:
*Save $$$$
*Learn a new skill
*Get a feeling of satisfaction
*You likely bought new tools to fix it, which you now own (yet still saved money overall)

Cons:
*You spent a ton of time
*You might never do something like this again
*Frustration due to inexperience
*You had to deal with shit


Hookers are pretty much the same thing. "Game" can be seen as insourcing pussy and getting it yourself. Prostitution is simply paying for the service directly. It's analogous to going to the grocery store and buying food vs. killing/growing your own. There's no right or wrong answer, it just depends on your time, money, skills, interests, and current situation in life.

Think about that next time you get an oil change or haircut.

[Vicious]

(08-13-2013 03:49 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 03:47 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

The jacking off on a girl was all jest, couldn't help myself. I knew what you meant, though I disagree on the black and white on it.

I can't believe you would troll me like that, et tu brute? lol

http://boldanddetermined.com/2011/10/20/...rnet-porn/

Not exactly a science journal but accurate in my estimation.

Next time a girl asks me if I want to watch some porn together I'll quote you Fisto! ! !

[OGNorCal707]

Epic thread, just pretty much read it all the way through, to be honest I'm surprised some of you (Fisto) are so passionate about this topic. I think both sides for and against make really compelling arguments and as a pragmatist I agree with parts of both arguments, but I don't think there is one DEFINITIVE correct answer that will apply to every guy and every situation. I also think it's kind of ignorant to see this issue in such black and white extremes. Either you're a basement dwelling, pimple faced, WOW playing 27 year old virgin who has to go to Asian massage parlours, or a master player who can pick up and fuck a new girl from the bar/club every week due to your supreme confidence, charm, wit, and charisma!

In reality the world doesn't always work like that, Fisto may embody the "modern day Cassanova" archetype and good for him, but he's probably one extreme of the spectrum so that may cloud his ability to understand or relate to guys who aren't walking in his shoes so to speak.

I agree with Sargon, that I don't see why a guy can't game women, but also indulge in a little p4p from time to time. It's not like every guy who occasionally does p4p absolutely can't and doesn't get laid on his own merit with regular girls, again that's black and white thinking. Sometimes a guy may do p4p because he's on a dry streak and just wants to bust a nut, maybe he's in a country like Brazil where it's very safe, comfortable, and convenient, and inexpensive to have sex with women who are hotter than he's ever been able to pull solely on game. Whatever the reason, indulging every once in a blue moon doesn't automatically define a man or eliminate his game knowledge, experience, and skill.

I "discovered" game almost 4 years ago now, and previously was pretty horrible with women (I'm still not great), I was devouring Roosh's material from the blog and was reading BANG while going on a much needed first trip to Brazil. While on that trip and with the help of the material I got from BANG, I ended up banging a cute 18 year old British chick (7) on Ilha Grange, and then a week later met a really hot mulatto woman from Sao Paulo an 8.5 on my scale that I fucked in Paraty, but even though I had just got two nice notches two weeks in a row, I still opted to visit the terma in Rio at the end of my trip, and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

Now first of all, to a guy like Fisto getting 2 notches in a 3 week trip would probably be an absolute "failure", he's a guy that could probably get 2 notches in less than 24 hours and with relative ease. Whereas for me, at my skill level 2 notches in 3 weeks was great at the time and still would be cool in my world. Point is everything is relative, I wish I could bang women as much as Fisto, but realistically my "game ceiling" won't allow me to ever attain his level of results and I'm okay with that.

Rant aside, getting back to the topic of p4p, even though I got two notches in the previous 2 weeks, I was horny as hell and struck out my last week in Rio, but still wanted to fuck one or two hot Brazilian chicks before I left. I went to terma L'umo in Rio and don't regret it for a second, ever heard of the old saying "don't knock it, till you tried it." For me this place embodied the ultimate male fantasy, aside from the obvious glaring flaw, that you are paying for sex.

The experience I had at the terma pretty much was the exact same as the guy describes in the OP, you pay a cover fee, get a locker key, get a bath robe, walk out into the main room, where there is DJ and dancefloor, there are probably about 10 girls all 8-10 on the scale dancing in thong bikinis and heels on the dancefloor. To your right there is a bar where you can order caiparinhas, and to the right of that are comfortable couch style lounge seating where there are probably another 10-15 girls all lounging in thong bikinis. All of these girls are hot, they range in skin color, height, ass size, tit size, almost anything you want can be obtained. You basically can have your pick from 25 of some of the hottest women you will see anywhere and can fuck them guarunteed, no problem.

Call me a pathetic loser, but I loved the experience, and for me it was a once in a life time thing, but I will surely experience it again should I go back. Now I could continue on and on with various arguments, but take what you will from what I write.

Fisto makes excellent points and to be short and blunt, I think he is right about how paying for sex *exclusively, regularly, or frequently* can really wreck a guys confidence, self esteem, and "inner game", but maybe not to the extent Fisto makes it out to be. Furthermore to reiterate what I've already said, not everything is so black and white, there can be a lot of grey. Also if you shore whores, you may not be paying them, but don't act like they aren't still prostitutes and don't get fucked by other guys for money, they could have easily swallowed a p4p guys load hours before meeting you.

[Samseau]

(08-13-2013 05:58 AM)Acute Angle Wrote:  

Samseau: Indeed, p4p sex is nowhere near as good as fucking a woman you seduced. But for many it will be somewhat better than using a fleshlight. A whore is a living human being. Okay I've no illusions that she's fucking the john for any other reason than he has money, but it's still a more human experience than a fleshlight. And some people get off on the sordid, illicit side of it. There's nothing transgressive about a lump of silicon ... unless you do it in a shop window. Mannequin game?

I wasn't going to debate more with Fisto on this topic, because clearly we're never going to agree, but I have to address the assertion that all men always should feel ashamed for taking a whore.

Another analogy: A guy has been driving for thirty years. He can parallel park, no problem, done it a thousand times. But one day he's faced with a choice. He can pay a reasonable fee to angle park right now, or he can drive around for ten or more minutes looking for a free parallel parking space. He's in a hurry that day. He has nothing to prove to himself about his parking ability. He pays to angle park. Should he feel ashamed?

Your analogy fails to take in levels of pleasure. If parallel parking gave you tons of pleasure, whereas paying for parking only gave a bit of pleasure, then of course it would be worth the time and effort to park the car yourself.

A better analogy is this:

Is it more satisfying to paint a picture to hang in your bedroom, or is it more satisfying to buy a picture someone else painted? Which adds more character to your bedroom?

[Vacancier Permanent]

Great thread! Read it also from start to finish. Both sides have made valid points. A few comments:

Fisto,
I can see and understand where you're coming from in your vehement comments against P4P. However, having said that, keep in mind that not every guy in this forum or out there, is a tall pro MMA fighter with model looks as you may be.

Most importantly, I'd say that it's a matter of priorities. Some guys focus all their energy to master Game and that's great for them. Some may prefer to focus all their time and energy in the gym to get buffed up. Others prefer to focus on their career, biz and money and others on their hobby.

For me personally, Game has never been nor will it ever be a priority. Nor money for that matter. I'm not a materialistic guy. I much rather accumulate experiences through travel than material stuff. For as long as I can remember it and for as long as I shall live, my main priority has always been and will always be Travel.

Do I need Game to travel as much as possible? While it would definitely help to make the experience much more pleasant, it isn't a requirement.

Do I need to have a ripped body to travel as much as possible? Again, while it would make the whole experience more pleasant, it isn't a requirement.

Even women or chasing them is not a priority for me. Women for me, are the icing on the cake in the whole traveling experience. They are part of the benefits package if you will.

What is a fundamental requirement (to me) in indulging as much as possible in my drug (traveling) is having the means to do so.

As I get older, I do realize the importance of being fit and staying fit, to lose weight and have a strong and healthy body. And I will focus more on that aspect of my life as I am getting older. I am already spending more time in the gym than ever before in the last 10 years or so.

Will I or do I want to get totally ripped and become a pro fighter? Probably not. My goal is to get in shape and be healthy. Not for swooping reasons or for Game reasons. But primarily for my own benefits, that is to be healthy, have a healthy body and be in good shape for as long as I can to improve my own quality of life. Not for any woman's enjoyment, but my very own.

Another equally fundamental thing for me is Time. I value my time more than Money. If it's a matter of choosing between time and money, 99%, I'll choose time. Money comes and goes. Time, once it's gone, it's gone for good and nobody nor no amount of money can buy it back. But money, you can always make more.

If I'm in a club or bar, overseas, of course, my first objective is to pick up a girl the playa's way, by charming her and gaming her. If at the end of the night, I strike out and I am in the presence of a girl who's an 8 or a 9 and there's a good vibe, I am not going to let a few bucks get in the way of getting laid.

Why? Simply because my ego and my self esteem/self worth are not dependent on Game and that black and white mentality so prevalent among Gamers that you must not pay.

But newsflash: you ALWAYS pay for it, one way or another. Either in time, effort, money or all 3 together. As much as there is no free lunch, there sure ain't no free pussy. And FREE pussy is the most expensive of all as any experienced guy will tell you.

You may get a "freebie" here and there, but the true playa in there is the women who's fishing you out for a bigger pay off. Hence the expression, no such thing as free pussy and that you always end up paying for it. Either directly or indirectly. Either with effort, time or money. If not with all of the above.

While I do enjoy the chase as much as any of you guys, what I enjoy most is the actual experience of traveling, of chasing business opportunities in emerging markets, of doing fun activities, of learning a new skill or new things, of growing as a person, while having an all together fulfilling, pleasant and fun experience along the way. With or without women. Of course, with would be more fun, but without, isn't a tragedy.

Regarding the original post about the Rio Termas, I'll just say that every man HAS to experience a Rio terma. It's one of those must do things to experience before you die. And one of those truly indelible experiences that you will be fondly remembering for the rest of your life. It's simply a must do thing. Plus, the termas are an excellent networking place as you meet upper class brasilian men there chilling, especially if you speak Portuguese. I even was able to finalize a big business deal inside the Rio termas (Monte Carlo and L'Uomo).

Ditto for those of you who are currently in Thailand and more specifically in BKK, a Thai massage at a soapy place is a MUST do thing.

It's not just the act of banging. It's more the pampering and how you're catered to your every whims and wants by stunning women. 60, 90 minutes or 2 hours of total bliss for the cost of a couple pizzas (in LOS).

Finally, remember the golden rule gentlemen: money is abundant and infinite out there. Time is NOT and is finite. Be cheap with your time and effort, not with your money. Be generous with your money, not with your time and effort.

[Acute Angle]

(08-13-2013 05:15 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

A better analogy is this:

Is it more satisfying to paint a picture to hang in your bedroom, or is it more satisfying to buy a picture someone else painted? Which adds more character to your bedroom?

That analogy is worse than mine! You're talking about something that gives lasting pleasure, whereas I'm talking about something that is consumed in a short time and gone. So, maybe a better one is: you can cook great meals, but sometimes you choose to pay to eat out. Of course, there are aspects of eating out that go beyond the consumption of tasty food, such as ambiance, company.... All analogies break down.

Great posts from Ognorcal and VP.

[Acute Angle]

I look at sexual relations this way: there are two main components.

1. Pussy. In that I include the whole warm-body experience of sex, with associated sights, sounds, smells, skin on skin and kinaesthetic sensations.

Pussy is a utility, just like electricity or gas. Someone owns it and they want to be paid for it. Most men pay in some way or other (with time, effort, proxies for money - but that's not the point I want to argue here). Some men do not pay at all, and I applaud them. Dick can be a utility too, but it's in a state of massive over-supply! Alpha dick, however, is scarce, and so pussy may be exchanged freely for alpha dick.

2. Validation. The emotional component. That includes the whole process of getting to know, and be known by, another human being (be it in twenty minutes or over twenty years), being accepted by them, and maybe even falling in love with them. Being seen with that hot chick on your arm. The envious looks of other guys. And many other great feelings. It's well worth learning game to enhance your prospects of experiencing them on a consistent basis.

However, some men have a much greater need for 1 rather than 2. Some men already have a surfeit of validation in their lives, perhaps from their wives and children, friends and colleagues, and from themselves. All they lack is pussy (or 'strange'), for whatever reasons. What harm will it do them to purchase some? It's just a transaction to them, like any other; there's no need to get their core identity all wrapped up in it.

Be clear, I'm not saying p4p is good for all or even most men. And I'm certainly not claiming that all men who do it are unharmed.
If you lack inner game, p4p may well harm you.
If you lack validation, p4p may well harm you.
If you have unacknowledged intimacy needs, p4p may well harm you.
And there are many other ways it can be a bad choice. But not for ALL men at ALL times. It's the black and white thinking that I object to.

Different strokes for different folks.

[BoiBoi]

I'll add my 2 cents:

For me, the story of getting the bang is often better than the bang itself, hence Ive never done p4p.

[Nomad77]

It is common for guys with girlfriends and wives to frequent whore houses in Brasil all the time. They treat them the same way we treat strip clubs here. How many of us on here has paid a stripper? What's the difference? One gives you dances the other sex. It is really only in America that prostitution is seen through the lens of a puritan/religious culture that it has the negative view that it does here. In Europe and in South America it's very much an accepted part of society. In Russia and Eastern Europe women and men understand that men always pay for sex either directly or indirectly. What is the difference between a sugar daddy and the husband that buys his wife an expensive piece of jewelry?

Every "player" pays for sex with his time and energy. If that time was converted to money he will find that he is paying a lot more than if he just paid directly. Also that cost and quality will vary from country to country, so that's another factor. Personally, I don't find much difference between a one night stand and decent P4P. There is not much emotions in either case because there is simply not enough time to build any. Plus there is nothing more disappointing than putting in all of that work to get a lay only for the girl to turn out to be bad in the sack. I believe the Brasilians has the right approach to this. Have relationships with women for intimacy and love and have P4P for fun and variety and also having girlfriends on the side. As it is often the best path in life, it's not one OR the other, it's about one AND the other - having both.

A old guy once told me that paying for pussy was the cheapest sex a man will ever get and based on my experience this is true. But like anything else if this is all you are doing then it's not good. There has to be balance in life.

[horn]

I know a guy who works in HK. He has plenty of game, a good looking Southern boy, and picked up plenty of hot Asians and expats over there. Some years ago, he came to NYC for a long weekend to take care of some personal stuff Friday/early Sat. We had a drink at lunch Sat and I asked him what he was doing until his Monday flight, thinking he'd want to go out to dinner with a few mutual friends of ours.

Nope. He had hired 2 porn stars - relatively well-known ones - to spend his last 36 hours in town with him. They were with him Saturday night, Sunday, Sunday nite, thru Monday morning 8am when he hopped in a cab back to JFK airport. They only left the hotel room for meals and the occasional walk in Central Park to let the cleaning staff in. He had an amazing weekend with them, I didn't press for explicit details but he was obviously happy with his choices.

I've never done p4p, but I admit the thought crossed my mind of fulfilling every fantasy you can imagine with 2 porn stars that are just 'perfect' for you. The cost was not cheap [haha], but that's not really the point is it, whether it's $100 or $1k or $10k?

He got to experience things that 99.999% of men who try their hardest to learn game will never be able to do, with very hot women who are willing and able to do precisely the things that most women will never do, exactly how you want them done. He may have filmed it for all I know.

Of course game is clearly much more important than a big wallet, no doubt.
But, if you're working 80hrs a week, 49 weeks a year making serious bank, I also think you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor in whichever fashion you like.

Judging him for this epic weekend...seems kinda silly to me.

[Vice]

Anyone of you saw the pics the dude posted of the chicks he paid to bang?

Quote:

This sweetheart gave me an oil massage and asked if there was anything else I wanted. She hopped on for sexy time. I sucked on her toes too.

I was underwhelmed, to say the least...

[Nomad77]

I would say these girls are pretty average for any guy that bangs a lot of girls whether they are paying or not. Quality and quantity are always inversely related.

[Felix88]

Talk about paying for sex, I went to Yoshiwara recently, it's quite famous so I wanted to check it out, you know, the place with a lot of soaplands where girls wash you with their bodies and sex. There is a lot of 8s and 9s, some are nearly 10 in my eyes working in the high class ones and compare to banging average 7s flaky Japanese dead fishes, I don't know, it felt better.

Got addicted to the lotion mat play, not the actual sex. :/

[Excelsior]

(08-01-2013 04:37 PM)Menace Wrote:  

If it's just a matter of money, why the hell even bother working out, eating well, having good logistics, daygame, night game...it's all pointless if I can just pick up a phone and call an 8 over.

That logic only holds if you were doing all of those things solely (or even primarily) for the sake of chasing tail.

I won't speak for everybody else, but I work out and eat well for my own ego as much as for the sake of attracting women. I genuine want to look good and I genuinely enjoy taking care of my body. My desire to do these things would not be swayed one way or another if I were able to call an 8 over on a whim.

The fact that I called an 8 over without having to jump through hoops to seduce her isn't going to change the fact that I want to look good and be healthy, nor would it alter the desire to maintain good logistics (the benefits of which extend beyond gaming girls).

[Zoso]

I you are really sure what can you get with your value, you won't hesitate in doing p4p (if you already like it) and it won't damage your self esteem.

I have a rule. Lets say that my best score was a 7.5. So, if I See a hooker that is below that and i am sure that i could seduce her and get her with time and effort, then I have no problem at all in doing p4p with her. It's a fact that i have saved money, time and feelings. Its the best meaningless sex (or perhaps there is some chemistry with the hooker haha).

If i would call a 9 to my room and i have never gotten this quality before, so the money is doing all the job.

I just care about validation from women only when they are good material. What thinks a sloot bar (that needs your game) or a hooker about me it's exactly the same, idfc.

[JackinMelbourne]

(03-05-2019 08:05 PM)Zoso Wrote:  

I just care about validation from women only when they are good material.

Define "care"?

[Rorogue]

I have a theory. Historically, women always traded sex for resources.

For a period of time, we had 'game' (early 2000s-when tinder became popular)

Then, looks became almost every thing since Tinder.

Recently signed up on seeking arrangement just for fun- subscribed for a month knowing I would not meet or pay any of the girls on there- and the amount of hot 19-24 year old women that LIKED AND MESSAGED ME was staggering.

I'm about a 6 in looks and I had 7 and 8 out of 10, 22 year old Anglo Australian girls asking what I'm doing tonight.

My theory is that as we return to the natural state of things in society (can't stop biology), more women will go back to wanting to trade sex for resources.

In 10 years, it may be the norm for a woman in the Anglosphere.

Ofcourse I would have gotten out if the west by then and be living in a tropical island paradise, so I don't care either way.

What do you all think?