[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-01-2013 01:59 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

"you're just describing you're own feelings"

No shit?

I'm on a forum, in the GAME section, having to debate with guys on why paying for sex is bad for their inner game.

I am actually having an out of body experience because of it.

You're describing your own personal feelings while implying they respresent some kind of objective notion of "shame".

All I'm saying is that whether it effects a person's "inner game" or sense of self worth is a completely subjective matter and is up to the individual.

[Duke Castile]

Does paying hookers money help your game? Is that subjective too?

[Sargon of Akkad]

(07-31-2013 04:36 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Men that are married or men with no game or no balls pay for sex.

Men with game do not.

That's the important lesson here.

You guys are valuing the opinion of a man that simply can't get laid and chooses to fly overseas to PAY prostitutes.

Jesus Christ listen to yourselves.

There also seems to be a false dichotomy here. "Only those who can't get laid pay for sex," while "Those who can get laid don't."

What about men who do both? I don't see how this is fundamentally different from saying "(Only) those who can't grow and cook their own food pay others to cook their meals for them," while "those who can cook don't." Does this make any sense?

As I said, I don't like the prospect of paying for sex. What's more, would I want that to be my main way of acquiring sex? Hell no. But if an absolute 10 offered to sleep with me for ten cents, I'd do it without batting an eye, and I doubt that most on this forum would be terribly opposed to the thought, either.

[Duke Castile]

I don't get how some guys keep using things like growing vegetables and paying for dinner as representative of the same thing we are talking about.

That has nothing to do with the issue. It's not comparable in the least.

Now we are making up hypothetical that will never happen to make a point?

And what about men who do both? I think it hurts their inner game too. They probably pay at the end of the night after nothing else works. In other words, they failed and so they're now reduced to paying for it.

I can't imagine one scenario where paying for sex helps your inner game. Your inner confidence.

I'm too tired to straighten this out. Headed to bed. It's a great discussion.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-01-2013 03:25 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

Does paying hookers money help your game? Is that subjective too?

Does paying hookers suddenly make it impossible for you to game regular women? Again, I see a false dichotomy.

The guy whose thread started this discussion doesn't seem to be interested in learning game. If his only goal is sex, I'm not going to judge him for it, so long as consenting adults are involved.

[Duke Castile]

(08-01-2013 03:36 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

(08-01-2013 03:25 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

Does paying hookers money help your game? Is that subjective too?

Does paying hookers suddenly make it impossible for you to game regular women? Again, I see a false dichotomy.

The guy whose thread started this discussion doesn't seem to be interested in learning game. If his only goal is sex, I'm not going to judge him for it, so long as consenting adults are involved.

Jesus Christ man. You talk about everything but the kitchen sink and the issue at hand.

We aren't talking about consenting adults. We aren't talking about GMO farming or cooking shows or whatever else.

We are talking about HAVING to pay for sex because you don't have the ability to get it otherwise.

When you pay for sex, you are acknowledging that fact. It's an admission of failure. It's a affirmation that you couldn't cut it on your own.

Do I think someone can get to a point where it wouldn't hurt their game. Absolutely, but this guy, and most of the guys on here, are not there.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-01-2013 03:35 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't get how some guys keep using things like growing vegetables and paying for dinner as representative of the same thing we are talking about.

That has nothing to do with the issue. It's not comparable in the least.

Why not?

In both scenarios, we have the acquisition of something (sex, food) either through a skill that often requires months to years of practiceto get good at (game, cooking), or through the easy way that requires no skill, i.e. paying for it.

Is the former better than the latter? Yes

Does paying for food/sex make help your ability to acquire food/sex without (direct) payment? No.

Does the latter (paying for food/sex) automatically exclude the ability to do the former (acquiring food/sex through skill) or vice versa? No.

It there an inherent and objective shame in the latter, independant of personal opinion and cultural norms? I don't think so.

Quote:

Now we are making up hypothetical that will never happen to make a point?

Which hypothetical scenario are you talking about?

Quote:

And what about men who do both? I think it hurts their inner game too.

I can't imagine one scenario where paying for sex helps your inner game. Your inner confidence.

Does paying a hooker actively help your inner game? No. Of course not.

Does it have to be harmful to it by harming your self esteem? I say that's up to you.

Quote:

They probably pay at the end of the night after nothing else works. In other words, they failed and so they're now reduced to paying for it

In that hypothetical scenario, the guy failed that night either way, regardless of whether he goes home to jerk off or head to a brothel.

[worldwidetraveler]

(08-01-2013 03:52 AM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

In that hypothetical scenario, the guy failed that night either way, regardless of whether he goes home to jerk off or head to a brothel.

You're missing the trial by fire attitude.

If you know that you will get laid if you don't pull, you don't really put your best effort forward. After some time, you just skip the bar and go straight to the hookers because you don't want to deal with drinks, driving, attitudes, insert other reasons here...

[TheMachinist]

Game is more about self improvement and unshakeable self confidence than anything else.Even the best game spitter on earth can't sleep with every woman that turns him on.The only thing he can do is present the best package he can and let the chips fall where they may.At the end of the day a woman has to WANNA GIVE a man some pussy in order for him to GET some pussy.

[Vicious]

Fisto I'm confident that you slept with a number of whores in SEA. You may not have payed them or you indirectly payed them with the illusion that you'd be their boyfriend or get them a green card or similar. Does this change the fact that they are still hookers?

[soup]

I'm still confused as to why there is a thread about hookers in the game section.

[Tengen]

Honestly i started this thread after downing half a bottle of Sangiovese, but i love the debate that's occured here and respect everyone who's put forward their views here.

Also glad that this has finally been moved to EE, although i wonder how many serious replies this thread would have gotten if i hadn't drunkenly posted in the Game section in the first place.

On my part, i'm already mentally preparing and saving up for a trip to Thailand, Phillipines, Brazil, Costa Rica...

[WestCoast]

How in the hell someone who has zero game can rationalize paying for sex is beyond me.

I've been out at night a ton and a few times run into hooks who have asked me to pay. My immediate reaction is always visceral.

Being asked to pay for sex is basically like the girl telling you "you could never have sex with someone like me". I laugh in her face and tell her you're wasting my time.

There is certainly something to be said for having the ability to land chicks on your own as fisto is explaining and defending over and over again. It's true, if you really can't do it yourself you're basically a dork ass loser.

The caveat is when you're 60+ old and grey and don't want to bang a 40 year old chick. That's where IMHO it becomes fuzzy.

That's the only time you can really rationalize paying, when fisto is 80 I would not knock him one bit for paying to smash a 25 year old.

On the flip side a guy who is 50 and under with his shit together has no reason to be paying, there are too many countries, too many options, were a successful 50 y/o is held in high esteem.

[Blaster]

Quote:

"Why do you need to have a woman validate your worth by sleeping with you? Who cares if a woman likes you if you get what you want (sex) out of it?"

The false dilemma there is that the only things to be extracted from women are sex and validation.

There's also sandwiches and clean laundry.

[Duke Castile]

Why not? I'm glad you asked. Because growing food or buying it doesn't have anything to do with your inner game or social skills.

We are talking about a social development or backsliding and you are talking about botany.

I am speaking from the perspective that you are either taking a step forward in your game or a step backward. I believe paying for sex is a step backward.

And I think we can all agree, men that are wealthy resent women who want them just for their money (golddiggers) because they feel they are not appreciated for the man they are.

Your game = the man you are

your money = any man with money

[Halifacts]

What about a split ratio with this kind of thing? 50/50? 70/30?

I can completely relate to both the OP and his way of thinking as well as seeing where Fisto is coming from.

Growing up in Canada I only ever had about 20 notches, all of them through girlfriends/ONS/online game.

My first experience with P4P was actually in the Dominican in 2011. I was partying at Mangu one night, was approached by what I would consider an easy 9, the offer was laid out, I was horny, I took it.

I spent a year living in Bangkok and I went with probably an 80/20 split there. I did a lot of online pipelining with TF and day game at the Mall Bang Kapi and got most of my bangs from there, as well as shoring quite a bit (usually when out solo) but sometimes you're just out with a group of buddies at Soi Cowboy/Nana getting trashed, one guy barfines one, then another, and then you find yourself just dropping the cash, taking a hottie to smash. There's no mistaking it for genuine affection or using my game to pull, it's a simple transaction, and I'm content to leave it at that. I get my nut, she leaves, my life goes on.

Am I most proud of my bangs that came from reading forums like this one and developing my own social skills? Absolutely 100%.

Do I feel any shame that I've engaged in a P4P scenario on occasion? Absolutely not 100%.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-01-2013 01:04 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Why not? I'm glad you asked. Because growing food or buying it doesn't have anything to do with your inner game or social skills.

Please, both involve the use of skill as opposed to payment. The above differentiation doesn't hold water. This is not difficult to understand.

Quote:

We are talking about a social development or backsliding and you are talking about botany.

We are talking about gaining something through the use of skill and hard work as opposed to gaining something the easy way through direct payment. In both cases, the former (skill and hard work) is better and more gratifying, in neither case are the two mutually exclusive. In neither case does the latter assume an inability to do the former.

Quote:

I am speaking from the perspective that you are either taking a step forward in your game or a step backward. I believe paying for sex is a step backward.

1.) The guy in question doesn't seem to care about learning game, but rather mere physical gratification. If that's all he's after, then so be it.

2.) You have yet to establish why paying for sex must automatically mean you can't get it any other way, or learn game simultaneously. And please don't start going on about 'self esteem' again. There is no such thing as an objective concept of shame.

Again, it's neither my nor your place to judge someone who finds paying for sex to be sufficient gratification.

Anything else and you're simply rationalizing a way to apply your own subjective and arbitrary concepts of shame to others. If they're getting what they want out of it and no one's harmed, why should you or I care?

[Acute Angle]

Let's try this analogy: a guy has to move a load of bags of sand from one place to another. He can lift the bags and carry them, but it is not without effort. It will do him good to do it manually - make him stronger, fitter and possibly more attractive to women. It will also make him sweaty, tired and take longer than if he hired a forklift truck. Should he feel bad for hiring the forklift? Maybe.

But what if he'd already spent months shifting bags of sand? He'd already proved to himself that he could do it and got most of the physical and mental benefits. One day he's in a rush to do something else, but he has to shift those bags. So he takes a shortcut and hires a forklift. He won't do it every day, but today the forklift solution suits him. Should he think less of himself?

I'd say it depends how much ego he has invested in being the strong guy.

[Duke Castile]

Sargon - You don't get it. That's cool.

AA - Does the sandbag treat you like a chump for paying for sex? Does the sandbag act like it's enjoying you carrying it so you'll get done sooner?

What I'm saying is, all these alternative examples are not representative of dynamic of paying a woman to enter her body.

Vicious made the argument that I'm paying with my flattery or something when I bang a hooker for free. Well, in some ways it's validating the level of game you have because a woman that get's paid for sex is sleeping with you and it effects her livelihood in a negative way.

Sargon wants to talk about shame. Whatever, I won't go that far as to say "you should feel ashamed". I don't think that. I think that if you are working on yourself, working on getting better, and then you have to resort to paying for sex (again, there are no other representative examples of this dynamic) You are backsliding.

Guys like sargon like to act like they are robots on the internet the same way women like to pretend they can think rationally when asked what kind of guy they want. In both cases reality is different from theory.

Go out at night and at the after striking out, go get a hooker and tell me nothings hurt.

If we are holding ourselves to a higher standard, I see this as being a higher standard.

If you don't share my views, that's cool, but when I'm walking along bangkok and I see chumps paying girls that I fuck for free, I do look down on them.

Maybe that's a thought experiment some of you can do; Imagine walking down the street and you see a hooker that's in love with you and she's with some guy who acts like he's the shit for having a sexy girl. She glances over at you and rolls her eyes and you share this little smile because you know she's taking him for everything she can while she fucked you for free and maybe even paid for your cab home.

[TheMachinist]

If a grown ass man did what needed doing to travel the world on his own dime then what the fuck should anybody care about what he does with his dick or money???If I was wealthy I wouldnt think twice about paying some bitch to pretend to love me for a night.I'd fuck porn starlets and A-List actresses exclusively.And quiet as kept there are lots of hollywood actress types selling pussy and fucking for favors.Whatever needs doing to get a nut off with out jackin' off or raping a broad I'm down!!!

[Acute Angle]

Hmm, lots of assumptions there, Fisto. Every hooker sees her clients as chumps? No doubt some of them are. But ALL of them? They're paying her bills, helping her raise her kids maybe (or paying for the next heroin fix) - maybe some are valued clients that she treats with respect. Now, one man's hundred dollar bill is as good as anyone else's of course. Only a fool would see it otherwise. No man should think he's the shit when he's with a whore. But he wanted to fuck, just needed the physical release. He hands over the money and he can fuck. Wham, bam, done. It's not a challenge to his gaming skills, for sure, but that wasn't the aim of the day. The aim was to fuck a decent-looking woman with minimal effort.

Who cares what the sandbag thinks? Should you care? (Legit question - I haven't got a thought-out answer yet.)

Now, there are skills to be learned in handling sandbags. The correct grip, the balance, the swing onto the shoulder. Done well, it feels good (I used to throw peat bags around in a factory in my gap year, waaaay back). I don't seek to minimise the skills required or the benefits obtained by the lifter. But some days he just wants those fucking bags over there and not here and he doesn't have the time to be poetic about it. The forklift is expensive and noisy and belches fumes but it gets the job done quick and easy.

As for the sandbag pretending to enjoy it, haha, there the analogy breaks down. But do you seriously think that only whores pretend to enjoy it so you cum sooner? Some shores will do that. Some 'good' girls will do that sometimes. Some wives will do that regularly. And what part of you cares? Does your dick care? No, your ego cares.

No one wants to feel a chump, no one wants to feel like they've been taken. But the value a person extracts from a sexual transaction depends on the values, priorities and preconceptions that they bring into it, not just on the attitude of the other party.

Maybe the guy in your little vignette fully knows that he's being taken. But he plays along because it's more fun to enter into the illusion. Maybe he spent the time that you were shoring the same girl creating options plays and making a small fortune that will enable him to reach the next strata of society? No one knows. Some guys are idiots, for sure, but it's arrogance to assume that you've got their number just by looking at them for 5 seconds in the street.

[Duke Castile]

I get the sandbags, I used to throw bails of hay. Lots of technique involved. It can be very rewarding work.

But my point in breaking down the analogy is that the sandbag doesn't care.

And let's look at the nature of women, when you walk into a strip club, do you really think those girls see you as anything more than a dollar sign? Sure I've banged strippers, but those girls are the exception not the rule.

These hookers, I guess you should experience them yourself, they look at sex like it's work.

And yes, just like strippers think you are a chump for paying for a lap dance, hookers think the same thing, As a rule, not as the exception.

Contrast that with having conversations about guys who pay for sex with hookers after you've shored them. Laying there, them telling you they meet good looking guys and they think it's so weird that these men need to pay for sex.

[Acute Angle]

I can't understand why guys go to strip clubs and slip hard-earned money into the g-strings of high-mileage 7s. Not my thing at all. But if it rings their bell, who am I to look down upon them?

For a whore, sex is work. I understand. It's just work. A sexual service for money. It isn't a plea for understanding, or an attempt to bolster her ego, or a trap to get me to marry her. I can see why some guys value that directness and simplicity.

I don't know why a young, good-looking guy would pay for sex - I never did. But an older guy who has a lot on his plate, has fucked a ton of women for free and is occasionally weary of the seduction game - well, I completely understand it.

Life has many paths. None of us will walk them all. If I find myself strongly judging another's path I try to see why it gets to me so much. And usually I learn something.

I'm not advocating p4p for anyone - it's about as meaningful and rewarding as taking a shit. But I don't think we should universally shame guys for indulging in it. You want a shit, take a shit - who cares?

[Menace]

Confusing discussion. P4P once in a while (i.e. very rarely) is not an issue. But to do it all the time? If it's just a matter of money, why the hell even bother working out, eating well, having good logistics, daygame, night game...it's all pointless if I can just pick up a phone and call an 8 over. You can have a new one every week or every day, depending on your budget. Are people suggesting that the feeling you get from seducing a woman is equivalent to banging a girl you straight up paid for? That's what it's about, as feminist as it may sound, the feeling. If it's all the same, I can go to Phils/Thailand and pay for 96 girls and tell everyone I'm as good as Fisto, but no one here would believe that, nor should they.

If the argument is about pure P4P vs. not P4P, then I don't even see an argument (if you are otherwise physically able to do so, meaning you have time, etc.).

Another way to look at it: you bang a girl P4P....do you text a +1 to your friend?

[Jaydublin]

Got to see an old military buddy this year, he is 27 or 28, 6'1 and avg build. He said in the last couple of years is 50-60k deep in them pros.... but granted he is a merc so when he gets time off he doesn't want to chase, he wants it then and there and the best of the best.