[defguy]

@Fisto A man that pays for pussy simply values his time more. I think you're complicating it with the whole "low self esteem" bullshit.

I believe you can outsource sex much like anything. And a person with this belief and mindset is the opposite of putting pussy on a pedestal, this mindset in fact devalues pussy. Outsourcing doesn't just save money but as others have mentioned, time, forgoing b.s., dangerous places/situations you don't want to be in, faking interest in b.s. conversations, and a lot of other crap that comes with gaming chicks. And when you're bargaining $20 off the asking price, id say that demonstrates way more self assurance than you can reasonably get gaming a chick. After all, if you're worth was higher than hers, she would be gaming you and not the other way around.

According to Fisto's argument, buying girls drinks to get her drunk is a sign of low self worth. Same thing with spending $10 cover to get into a bar. Do you really like that bar that much? Do you really like hopping from club to club opening up new tabs and paying new covers? Maybe Fisto never spends $$ on women, I've seen very few men pull that off regularly. I admit i know of 2 guys with awesome game that rarely spend a dime on women but actually have the roles are reversed, but even they know its not something they can and will do indefinitely. They spend significantly less than the average person and for far better rewards. But its also at the sacrifice of much time, putting up with bullshit and psychologically damaged women, game, lying, etc.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-01-2013 04:37 PM)Menace Wrote:  

Confusing discussion. P4P once in a while (i.e. very rarely) is not an issue. But to do it all the time? If it's just a matter of money, why the hell even bother working out, eating well, having good logistics, daygame, night game...it's all pointless if I can just pick up a phone and call an 8 over. You can have a new one every week or every day, depending on your budget. Are people suggesting that the feeling you get from seducing a woman is equivalent to banging a girl you straight up paid for? That's what it's about, as feminist as it may sound, the feeling. If it's all the same, I can go to Phils/Thailand and pay for 96 girls and tell everyone I'm as good as Fisto, but no one here would believe that, nor should they.

If the argument is about pure P4P vs. not P4P, then I don't even see an argument (if you are otherwise physically able to do so, meaning you have time, etc.).

I don't think anyone's arguing that P4P is equally satisfying as non-P4P, or that it's 'all the same'. Of course it's not the same, just that if certain guys feel they're getting their needs sufficiently met by it, that's their decision and I'm not going to judge them for it.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-01-2013 02:44 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Sargon - You don't get it. That's cool.

I really could say the exact same thing about you.

Quote:

AA - Does the sandbag treat you like a chump for paying for sex? Does the sandbag act like it's enjoying you carrying it so you'll get done sooner?

Who cares? The people who pay for sex obviously don't.

Quote:

Sargon wants to talk about shame. Whatever, I won't go that far as to say "you should feel ashamed". I don't think that. I think that if you are working on yourself, working on getting better, and then you have to resort to paying for sex (again, there are no other representative examples of this dynamic) You are backsliding.

After this kind of comment you try to tell me I'm the one who doesn't get it? There are plenty of representatives of this dynamic, you're just shoehorning some made-up idealistic notions into it. I understand what you mean about the woman wanting it. That's why I'm not into prostitutes, I can't enjoy sex with a woman without a sense of mutual lust.

However, what you don't seem to understand is that this feeling is neither objective nor universal. The fact that I'm not into P4P has more to do with the fact that it doesn't meet my own personal needs, but I'm not going to apply my own personal needs to others.

Quote:

Guys like sargon like to act like they are robots on the internet the same way women like to pretend they can think rationally when asked what kind of guy they want. In both cases reality is different from theory. Go out at night and at the after striking out, go get a hooker and tell me nothings hurt.

I tried it once several years ago. Not because I couldn't get it any other way, but because of oportunity and curiosity (e.g. would it be different that with a normal girl?, etc.). Didn't enjoy it; don't plan on doing it again, but did I feel "a part of myself die on the inside"? Did I feel pain from some irrevocable emptiness in the place that used to be my soul or some similar nonsense? Of course not. Tried it once, wasn't for me, moved on.

If somebody else likes that, however, it's not my concern to judge them.

I'll grant you that a guy who is paying for sex for no other reason that he can't get laid the other way, and additionally deludes himself into thinking the whores he's paying WANT it...is indeed a loser.

However, if he's doing it just because he wants to have fun and indulge in physical pleasure, doesn't care about game, and he fully understands the purely transactional nature of it, then I really don't care either way what he's doing. Is he someone I'd look up to? No. Is what he's doing equally satisfying as what I'm doing? Probably not. But am I going to judge him for it? Hell no.

Quote:

If we are holding ourselves to a higher standard, I see this as being a higher standard.

Again, these are your subjective, made up standards that you're applying to other people who apparantly don't care about them.

Quote:

Maybe that's a thought experiment some of you can do; Imagine walking down the street and you see a hooker that's in love with you and she's with some guy who acts like he's the shit for having a sexy girl. She glances over at you and rolls her eyes and you share this little smile because you know she's taking him for everything she can while she fucked you for free and maybe even paid for your cab home.

Again, these are pointless hypothetical scenarios. I'd only call that guy a loser if he really believes she's into him (for something other than his money). If he knows it's bullshit but doesn't care, why should you or I?

[Low Status Beta]

A while back, Tariq Nasheed interviewed a similar dude who wrote a book called "Best Bang for Your Buck", and presented a very good argument (in contrast to Tariq's "Pimp" stance)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB_I30btzFE

Here's his book:
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-ultimate-g...d_sxp_f_pt

[Duke Castile]

Oh I've just seen that sargon replied. There is an objective standard, ALMOST ANYONE can pay for sex, not everyone can get laid on skill.

The fat slob with bacne on the computer can pay for sex. When you pay for sex you're just as good as him. And that hurts your inner game.

[Sargon of Akkad]

[sigh] My god, you really don't seem to get it.

(08-08-2013 10:54 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Oh I've just seen that sargon replied. There is an objective standard, ALMOST ANYONE can pay for sex, not everyone can get laid on skill.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying, nor does it resemble what I was referring to as 'objectivity'.

I'm not going to keep arguing this, as it isn't going anywhere, and frankly I'm getting tired of explaining the same thing over and over again.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Vicious]

(08-08-2013 10:54 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

The fat slob with bacne on the computer can pay for sex. When you pay for sex you're just as good as him. And that hurts your inner game.

Hugh Hefner must be a mental wreck.

[Ensam]

Everytime I see these p4p arguments I kind of think it's like someone going on a forum devoted to hunting and telling everybody how much easier it would be to just go down to the meat counter at the local supermarket.

[Vicious]

(08-11-2013 12:38 PM)Ensam Wrote:  

Everytime I see these p4p arguments I kind of think it's like someone going on a forum devoted to hunting and telling everybody how much easier it would be to just go down to the meat counter at the local supermarket.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's no game involved in p4p. I believe it's just Fisto's statement that p4p would hurt your mentally that's being challenged.

[Sargon of Akkad]

Quote:

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's no game involved in p4p.

Wait, you're saying there's game involved in p4p?????

[Duke Castile]

Oh you're going to "sigh"??

And honestly vicious, I'm surprised you use Hefner, a man that has made his living using charm and game to start Playboy as being representative of what we are talking about.

His success and others used to describe how it doesn't really hurt your game is not representative of almost anyone on this forum.

Those men's confidence is bolstered by extreme success in an areas of their life that leads to pussy regardless of whether they pay or not.

Yet many men like this constantly complain and worry about whether a girl just likes him for his money or power blah blah blah

As far as Hefner is concerned, his legal arrangements with women suggest to me that he has accepted that woman only like him for one thing. I'm not sure if that leads to a happy life or not under those circumstances.

Sargon, just curious, what level of game do you rate yourself?

[daygamebrah]

Fisto, I respect your opinion, but opinions aren't facts. If you personally would suffer from a self esteem hit by p4p, then don't do it. For those who couldn't care less, you're not going to convince them you're "right." There's no such thing as a right answer. It's 100% personal preference and worldview.

Getting angry at your computer screen cannot change your opinion into a fact.

[Virtus]

[Duke Castile]

I'm not angry, I'm more just astonished that someone can believe something that is so obviously incongruent. Everyone is free to think as they wish as far as I'm concerned. And thanks for saying that in a respectful manner.

[Duke Castile]

But I admit I have extreme views, I also think jacking off is bad for your game.

[el mechanico]

I agree with Fisto 100%

P4P is suck shit that really should mess with your head.

You are going out Friday night and then as you're walking out of your house a hooker is in your driveway and says 20 bucks can I come in?

You bang her. Now what? Do you still want to go out? It only lasted a couple minutes it's not like you're eating her pussy and kissing and stuff..or laying around watching tv or making snacks..

[eradicator]

For the guys that think p4p is OK, how do you get past knowing that the whores probably have some cum from half a dozen guys in her mouth from earlier in the day? And knowing that they probably have some sort of disease, and if your condom breaks or rolls off, you could catch some STDs, isn't that a boner killer?

The only way I would ever do p4p is if i was famous and had millions of dollars to burn and was old and using some high end call girls, like russian chicks that were perfect looking and cost 10k/night. But even then, if i was rich and famous, I should be able to play fame game and bang supermodels already.

[Virtus]

how do you know that the girl you just instadated and kissed at the end of it did not come from giving her restaurant cook fuck buddy a blowie? ever have a lunch quickie with a girl? what if she went and got instadated right on the way back? You never own them. just rent em

[Duke Castile]

(08-12-2013 10:05 PM)calihunter Wrote:  

how do you know that the girl you just instadated and kissed at the end of it did not come from giving her restaurant cook fuck buddy a blowie? ever have a lunch quickie with a girl? what if she went and got instadated right on the way back? You never own them. just rent em

Don't you kind of think whores are more likely to have that than non pros?

[Samseau]

Not sure how guys can honestly compare hookers to game.

How is a hooker any different than a fleshlight?



A hooker is nothing more than a sophisticated fleshlight. It gives you cheap orgasms. Sexbots will replace fleshlights in the future. Hookers are no different than sexbots.

Compare this to game, with the mutual feelings of attraction and desire. The amount of pleasure gained from making a woman submit to you is infinitely greater than merely having an orgasm.

I agree that a hooker will give a better orgasm than masturbation. But honestly, it's only because the hooker has a better tool for the job. But if all a man needed was orgasms to be happy, then in theory he should be perfectly satisfied with masturbation.

And yet no amount of masturbation can cure the suffering of the incel. Likewise, hookers cannot take a man's virginity. And there is a reason we feel this way. If there was not so much pleasure in taking a woman and making her your bitch, none of us would be here right now. Far from being a subjective feeling, this is an objective desire created in virtually all straight men which propagates the species.

If there are men who finds paying for sex as pleasurable as seducing for sex, then he is as defective as a gay man.

[Acute Angle]

Samseau: Indeed, p4p sex is nowhere near as good as fucking a woman you seduced. But for many it will be somewhat better than using a fleshlight. A whore is a living human being. Okay I've no illusions that she's fucking the john for any other reason than he has money, but it's still a more human experience than a fleshlight. And some people get off on the sordid, illicit side of it. There's nothing transgressive about a lump of silicon ... unless you do it in a shop window. Mannequin game?

I wasn't going to debate more with Fisto on this topic, because clearly we're never going to agree, but I have to address the assertion that all men always should feel ashamed for taking a whore.

Another analogy: A guy has been driving for thirty years. He can parallel park, no problem, done it a thousand times. But one day he's faced with a choice. He can pay a reasonable fee to angle park right now, or he can drive around for ten or more minutes looking for a free parallel parking space. He's in a hurry that day. He has nothing to prove to himself about his parking ability. He pays to angle park. Should he feel ashamed?

[worldwidetraveler]

(08-12-2013 11:01 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(08-12-2013 10:05 PM)calihunter Wrote:  

how do you know that the girl you just instadated and kissed at the end of it did not come from giving her restaurant cook fuck buddy a blowie? ever have a lunch quickie with a girl? what if she went and got instadated right on the way back? You never own them. just rent em

Don't you kind of think whores are more likely to have that than non pros?

You would think that just by the fact they would have more partners, but they most likely practice safe sex far more than the average non pro. Look at how many women you raw dogged throughout SEA.

I believe a lot of the places where prostitution is legal will have testing requirements. Who knows how stringent those requirements are enforced.

[Vicious]

Fisto, Hefner is one example among many. I could rattle of a list of celebs or power players who are fairly well known users of escorts. I doubt they are losing any sleep over it.

[Vicious]

Quote:

But I admit I have extreme views, I also think jacking off is bad for your game.

I jack off (and nut) over girls now and then. Do I need to stop this? Is it less hurtful to my game if my dick is in contact with her lips while I'm jacking? What if she jacks me off? Does it hurt her game?

[worldwidetraveler]

(08-13-2013 10:57 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote:

But I admit I have extreme views, I also think jacking off is bad for your game.

I jack off (and nut) over girls now and then. Do I need to stop this? Is it less hurtful to my game if my dick is in contact with her lips while I'm jacking? What if she jacks me off? Does it hurt her game?

Fisto can correct me, but I think he is talking about taking the easy way out and not allowing yourself to improve.

You have to admit, there are plenty of guys who find it easier to pay for sex than to work out, develop game, become interesting, etc...

If those guys worked on themselves to be more attractive, they will end up being much more happier than a guy who settles for the quick and easy solution.

Now, as some of the other guys have said, not all guys that visit prostitutes will be in that category. I do agree with him to a point.