[Kaebs]

(12-23-2014 02:10 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 11:13 AM)roid Wrote:  

If you want to do web dev in Python then you need to learn HTML, Python, Django in that order preferably.

Hey man,

Thanks for the info, would you mind expanding a bit? I have just been learning HTML/CSS for a few weeks, at what point would you say one is roughly "ready" to begin learning Python?

What he means is that when you are building an appilcation, python will be part of the back-end of it and html/css will be the front-end(What you can actually see).

I suggest you try remaking some simple websites. Once you can do that immediately jump into learning python and then django(web framework).

[berserk]

From what I've learned, Jquery is the real kicker for webdev. HTML and css can fortunately be abstracted away mostly with frameworks like Bootstrap, but Jquery makes so much happen if you just understand basic HTML and css. The world is also full of front end designers to outsource to, while Python/Ruby developers are in far shorter supply.

[The Great Basilisk]

(12-23-2014 03:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

From what I've learned, Jquery is the real kicker for webdev. HTML and css can fortunately be abstracted away mostly with frameworks like Bootstrap, but Jquery makes so much happen if you just understand basic HTML and css. The world is also full of front end designers to outsource to, while Python/Ruby developers are in far shorter supply.

Unfortunately, Jquery is kind of outdated already. It's heavy and most websites that use it end up being an unmaintainable mess. Most web front-end developer position require you to know some other framework, for example AngularJS, which is very popular at the moment. Yet jquery is still being used on most "normal" websites and is basically the goto framework when the website only needs a few javascript functionalities. I actually had to learn angularJS for my recent job seeking endeavor.

[Fast Eddie]

(12-23-2014 01:50 PM)DumbfromBirth Wrote:  

@Fast Eddie. I think you would make one class for all 3 columns and make it either vw or % for mobile functionality. Im not sure what you mean by lag but if your code is good then wouldnt that be a hosting problem?

Yeah bro, I was just trying to illustrate the different types of design issues you run into when taking the leap from understanding html/css syntax to actually creating functional designs.

As for the lag, I'm thinking of what would happen if you've got high concurrency of users accessing the primitive mySQL databases I'm able to build. You may be right, that may not even be a problem. The point is, even though I'm able to build such simple databases right now, I don't even know what I don't know, when it comes to more advanced topics like scalability etc. The overarching point of which is that coding isn't hard; it's the architectural knowledge that really takes time to acquire.

[berserk]

(12-23-2014 06:14 PM)The Great Basilisk Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 03:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

From what I've learned, Jquery is the real kicker for webdev. HTML and css can fortunately be abstracted away mostly with frameworks like Bootstrap, but Jquery makes so much happen if you just understand basic HTML and css. The world is also full of front end designers to outsource to, while Python/Ruby developers are in far shorter supply.

Unfortunately, Jquery is kind of outdated already. It's heavy and most websites that use it end up being an unmaintainable mess. Most web front-end developer position require you to know some other framework, for example AngularJS, which is very popular at the moment. Yet jquery is still being used on most "normal" websites and is basically the goto framework when the website only needs a few javascript functionalities. I actually had to learn angularJS for my recent job seeking endeavor.

That's my understanding too. AngularJS is in demand and I've been told the way to structure is to run an API basically on Python/Ruby and then AngularJS for the frontend. No Django or Rails. Does this match what you know?

If you just want to get a webapp up and running by yourself though, I get recommended Bootstrap or similar with jquery and a backend of flask/django/rails.

Agree?

[The Great Basilisk]

(12-23-2014 06:54 PM)berserk Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 06:14 PM)The Great Basilisk Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 03:35 PM)berserk Wrote:  

From what I've learned, Jquery is the real kicker for webdev. HTML and css can fortunately be abstracted away mostly with frameworks like Bootstrap, but Jquery makes so much happen if you just understand basic HTML and css. The world is also full of front end designers to outsource to, while Python/Ruby developers are in far shorter supply.

Unfortunately, Jquery is kind of outdated already. It's heavy and most websites that use it end up being an unmaintainable mess. Most web front-end developer position require you to know some other framework, for example AngularJS, which is very popular at the moment. Yet jquery is still being used on most "normal" websites and is basically the goto framework when the website only needs a few javascript functionalities. I actually had to learn angularJS for my recent job seeking endeavor.

That's my understanding too. AngularJS is in demand and I've been told the way to structure is to run an API basically on Python/Ruby and then AngularJS for the frontend. No Django or Rails. Does this match what you know?

If you just want to get a webapp up and running by yourself though, I get recommended Bootstrap or similar with jquery and a backend of flask/django/rails.

Agree?

Yes. For webapps there are other backend languages being used as well. NodeJS is popular with angular(google "MEAN stack" if you want to know more about this).

Now i would make a distinction between "webapp" and "website". For example facebook.com is a webapp or "single page app", while http://www.bbc.com is a website.

Jquery is still fine and i still use it on projects where i rely more on the content management system(like wordpress). I wouldn't make an actual "webapp" with jquery myself though. Data binding with jquery is major pain in the ass compared to angular and jquery makes the code repetitive and ugly.

[mymotivation]

(12-22-2014 09:49 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

Like many posters in this thread I've been in the process of acquiring web dev skills for the past few months. What I've found is that the syntax and the coding itself is quite easy; the hard part is understanding how all the pieces fit together.

For example: CSS is a joke. It's not even coding; you're basically just describing how you want something to look like, in plain English. The hard part is taking the granular knowledge of the syntax and understanding the design philosophy used to achieve the "best in class" designs. Eg: it's easy to learn what a float is and the difference between percentage and pixel sizing. But when creating a standard 3-column layout, do you float all three columns and don't specify the widths? Do you make each column into a div and have them lie out there independently, or you do have one parent "wrapper" div holding the three column divs? etc, etc, etc. I learned HTML and CSS syntax in a couple days but then stagnated for a few weeks trying to create layout without any kind of direction until I found a good book that explained design philosophies.

Likewise with server side programming. Once you've coded one language you've coded them all, more or less. It's easy to master programming logic: loops, functions, operators, etc. The hard part, again, is figuring out how your loops and if statements and other bullshido are going to help you build a web-app. I knew some python before trying to learn how server side works but soon gave up trying to use python as my server side language in favor of PHP. Why? Because while I find coding in python to be easier and more fun than PHP, it's far easier to get your head around back-end development with PHP. I had zero idea how html forms, server side languages, and mySQL databases combine to create a functional back-end, and the python tutorials online kind of assume you know how that shit works and just teach you how to do something you're already supposed to understand, but in python.

With PHP, I was able to find a great book that laid out exactly how all these components (html, java script, php, mySQL) work together to create a fully functional web-app. Now that I understand the principles-create an HTML form, send user input from HTML form into PHP script, use PHP script to initiate a mySQL session and pass a string variable containing a SQL command to mySQL-it is a lot easier to go back to those python tutorials if I end up wanting to switch from PHP.

Right now I'm at the point where I can create a somewhat decent front-end and a very simple back-end like collecting user supplied data etc. Of course, all this shit would only work under the most ideal of situations. I have no idea what would happen if there are many concurrent users. I would have no clue how to deal with lag experienced by users. I have no idea about security aside from simple anti SQL injection formatting. And on it goes.The worst thing is that I have no idea how much/what I need to know before my skillset is marketable, or even useful.

At any rate, I found the following two books to be very helpful in overcoming the obstacles I described in the first part of my post:

CSS3: The Missing Manual- after I became comfortable with basic html/css syntax from online tutorials, this book was invaluable in helping me understand the design principles necessary to create robust and attractive page layouts.


Learning PHP, MySQL, JavaScript, CSS & HTML5, 3rd Edition
I used this book to gain understanding of back-end coding. I spent a few days futilely trying to learn this shit online before picking up the book, and it was like night and day. It takes you from the very first step, ie choosing and installing a development server on your machine, teaches you basis PHP syntax, SQL syntax, and then-most importantly-shows you how html, PHP, and mySQL work together to create the backend.

My next step is to take all this theoretical knowledge and take the plunge into making a website, hopefully one that is either revenue generating or at least can provide functionality some would find valuable.

I actually read that book when I first started teaching myself programming. I had OOP database and user/login stuff figured out from tutorials, but I quit my php/web project a few months a go as I got frustrated with jquery and couldn't find an answer to a problem I was having with it. Plus I got fed up with PHP as so many of the tutorials on the web are so out of date.

I've just started the python django tutorial and I am flying through it, it's an absolute breeze to use! Really happy I started with PHP and switched to Python for the reason you said.

[Player_1337]

Indeed and Dice are great resources for finding work. Where do you guys like to scout for open positions?

[Kaebs]

(01-25-2015 11:52 PM)Player_1337 Wrote:  

Indeed and Dice are great resources for finding work. Where do you guys like to scout for open positions?

I've actually tried sending in emails with cover letter's & resumés to job postings but I haven't gotten a reply yet.

Any Suggestions?

[Praetor Lupus]

I ordered my book on beginning Python programming today and I've been informed it should arrive tomorrow. I've had experience in Visual Basic and C+ but that was a long time ago. I've caught the programming bug again and as well as Internet languages like PHP and JavaScript I'd like to become proficient in at least one non-web language.

I want to start building my own games and apps. If this knowledge makes me even more valuable in my current job, even better.

[polar]

I know someone at a growing financial services consulting company in NYC who's building out a new digital practice (mainly front-end design and development, although a lot of backgrounds might fit). They're likely to offer relocation if you have a little experience.

PM for details if you're interested and aren't a lurker (have posts / rep points, esp. from meeting people in person)

[BasketBounce]

Currently learning Ruby on Rails through a tutorial and loads of help from other developers that I know. Hoping to build a portfolio over the next year and land a decent gig.

All so that I can travel...hope I'm going about it the right way

[lowhead360]

delete

[evilhei]

I found this very good free ebook about programming/JS in particular.
http://eloquentjavascript.net/
It is written about JS but it actually explains also the very basics of programming very well, functions, objects, function calls etc. You can do all the examples he has there yourself in your browser console. Im not a beginner programmer but I enjoyed reading it and learned from it anyway.

[TravellingSoldier]

Are there any experienced developers here? Building a WordPress site with HTML, CSS and JavaScript. Tired of paying Ukrainians though and wouldn't mind partnering up with someone from RvF.

Send me a message!

[TravellingSoldier]

(01-27-2015 02:02 AM)Kaebs Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 11:52 PM)Player_1337 Wrote:  

Indeed and Dice are great resources for finding work. Where do you guys like to scout for open positions?

I've actually tried sending in emails with cover letter's & resumés to job postings but I haven't gotten a reply yet.

Any Suggestions?

Just saw these posts. You can see in my last post how I was talking about looking for a developer to partner up with. The site I'm creating is actually a job board (with a twist).

We're going to go live soon, if anyone is interested I will give you the link so you can upload your resume. I'll try to help you find work, depending on where you live (starting to advertise in Ontario then will be moving onto other provinces and internationally).

With the downturn out west hopefully I can help some people here find work, especially the guys from the oilsands thread...

[Fast Eddie]

All right, roll-call. Who is still seriously pursuing this and what kind of progress have you all made?

For me, I've decided to forgo Django for web dev and go strict PHP/mysql. My main goal in learning to program is to have the skillset so that in the future, I am able to seize a business opportunity that may present itself and have that skillset already handy, rather than get a programming job now or in the immediate future.

As such, I am more interested in achieving a thorough understanding of how the low-level processes and architecture of the back-end work. After spending a few days doing Django, I decided that there is just too much abstraction between what I'm telling Django to do and what's actually being done to the database and browser. You can create "models.py" files all day long and never learn how databases actually work.

With straight PHP, no frameworks, shit is a lot slower but you understand 100% of what's going on and get to build a solid foundation of database-server-browser interactions. Since you're building the application if-statement and mysql-query at a time, there is no magic hocus-pocus like in Django, where you may make a 1 line alteration to a .py file, but in reality Django runs a few thousand lines of code that you have no idea about during the rendering of the webpage as a result of that 1 line alteration. Also, deploying PHP from a development server to a real web-host is really as simple as copying to files via FTP. Good luck deploying a Django app if you're just a newb.

So at this point I'm building a crude "users" application: basically people can register, login, provide some data about themselves such as their city, interests, etc and can search for other users in their city who have similar interests. Pretty basic stuff, but it feels good to create that shit out of thin air one line of code at a time and put it on a real server so that anyone in the world can register and put in their info!

With that said, I am still learning more Python, just not for web development.

[JonJon]

Fast Eddie,

I just got on board with learning to code after reading this thread.

I'm starting out from scratch here, a total novice, going through some shell programming tutorials.

I'm still torn as to what to learn next after completing the shell tuts. My goal is to ultimately study hard for however long it takes to have a practical level of competency, develop my portfolio along the way, and land a job in a field that is tried and tested, with durability and longevity, and little chance of competition to outsourcing. The question is where to go. I'm completely new to this but interested in learning and ultimately switching careers.

At first I was thinking of going the python route, then possibly learning JvScript and other languages with big market potential. The thing is, though, I don't want to end up tossed into a pit where i'm competing against a bunch of freelancers who would work for peanuts. I'd much rather end up in a field with more stable employment. Hell, I was even seriously considering cobol (still am). From the looks of things, with the little I know now, I think I want to avoid front end work and focus more on back end development.

What has your experience been so far starting out and learning, any tips or suggestions on what languages to consider over others?

With all the different suggestions in this thread, it can be hard for a beginner to wade through the information and draw proper conclusions about certain career paths and the realities of learning one language over another. Of course, as I type this, I have and will continue to do my research accordingly.

[Praetor Lupus]

I've now started setting myself challenges in the six languages I'm currently learning (Python, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, Java and Ruby). My focus is on design and development of websites and games. For the former, I'm also picking up some books on graphic design.

Already I'm making something of a name for myself in my workplace through the development work I'm doing on the Intranet (but we're stuck with IE8, which is fucking terrible). I want to eventually create my own apps and games.

[RockHard]

(01-27-2015 02:02 AM)Kaebs Wrote:  

(01-25-2015 11:52 PM)Player_1337 Wrote:  

Indeed and Dice are great resources for finding work. Where do you guys like to scout for open positions?

I've actually tried sending in emails with cover letter's & resumés to job postings but I haven't gotten a reply yet.

Any Suggestions?

Network. Every programming job I've ever had except one has been through connections (and the one I had worked for a direct competitor so the interview was a slam dunk).

Meetup.com has tons of groups, unless you're in the sticks, you can find something. There's a Refresh group in every big town, but anything tech will work. Get out and meet people and run some jobseeker game.

I haven't tried any of the job boards in years. Just get on LinkedIn, get those keywords in your profile, and headhunters should find you. A headhunter won't find the best gig but they will place you, because they're paid on commission and if they don't place you, they don't get paid. After 6-12 months of professional experience you will be MUCH better positioned to go get the job you really want. It doesn't hurt to pay some dues. Obviously you don't want to work for a really shitty place, but on the other hand, if you endure 6 months you now have real experience.

Failing that, relocate. It's almost impossible to hire in the hot markets.

[Fast Eddie]

(04-28-2015 05:38 AM)JonJon Wrote:  

Fast Eddie,

I just got on board with learning to code after reading this thread.

I'm starting out from scratch here, a total novice, going through some shell programming tutorials.

I'm still torn as to what to learn next after completing the shell tuts. My goal is to ultimately study hard for however long it takes to have a practical level of competency, develop my portfolio along the way, and land a job in a field that is tried and tested, with durability and longevity, and little chance of competition to outsourcing. The question is where to go. I'm completely new to this but interested in learning and ultimately switching careers.

At first I was thinking of going the python route, then possibly learning JvScript and other languages with big market potential. The thing is, though, I don't want to end up tossed into a pit where i'm competing against a bunch of freelancers who would work for peanuts. I'd much rather end up in a field with more stable employment. Hell, I was even seriously considering cobol (still am). From the looks of things, with the little I know now, I think I want to avoid front end work and focus more on back end development.

What has your experience been so far starting out and learning, any tips or suggestions on what languages to consider over others?

With all the different suggestions in this thread, it can be hard for a beginner to wade through the information and draw proper conclusions about certain career paths and the realities of learning one language over another. Of course, as I type this, I have and will continue to do my research accordingly.

I'm the wrong person to ask this since I am little past the beginner stage myself and have never worked as a programmer, so take whatever I say with a giant shaker of salt.

With regards to fortifying yourself against H1B Indians, your best bet is to do a job for which H1B Indians do not qualify. Getting yourself a security clearance that would allow you to work on government projects, etc. Another way to bypass H1B Indians is to be a really great developer, since companies looking for exceptional talent don't usually consider H1B Indians to be a source population for those. But both those strategies are easier said than done, with the latter probably being 90% dependent on your innate talent and this sort of thing.

[TravellerJay]

Guys,

I just wanted to share with all of you my current situation.
I started with Python/Django following Frenchcorporation advise, but I couldnt keep up with it. Why? Because I needed some clear path and guidance. I am a self taught guy: I learned language skills (english, portuguese and italian) without a formal college/institute/mentor and or coach. I learned computer skills and I learned the tricks of the trade of being a project manager without having the Prince and or PMI certification. I always learned things by reading books, watching people do things and by self taught lessons. I am a smart guy, not the brightest in town but close

So why the hell I was failing? I thought about it and maybe there was a combination of lack of proper motivation from my part some months ago "plus" boring or not very much inspiring steps in the documentation available. I tried Learn Python Hard Way but it didnt caught me or maybe I didnt. Who knows? Maybe I wasnt that bright after all.
I tried it, really tried but mid way doing exercises and or watching videos I slowed down and lost interest. I thought I wasnt good enough for this and I should have focused in learning new languages like german, which is cool and something I am also very good at it. So why insisting?
Because in this year and the years to come we need to have new tech skills to have better opportunities. I know I need them since I do not want to depend on office offers and or jobs I did but enjoyed them very little. I dont want to suffer unemployment.
I know programming is something feels right for me. So the question is how was I suppose to do it?
I tried to find coding schools in my city. If I lived in NY and had 17K I would invest in Hack Reactor.
The only one I found in my area had this Full Stack developer choice consisting of 192 hours, total. Which seemed small for landing a Jr. Developer job. The money wasnt a problem for me, not too much expensive or too cheap to make me feel that it was a bogus. On site classes, seemed legit, negative feedback? None, so I thought let's give it a try right?
BUT.., only 192 hrs. Digging a bit I found local developers who gave me their advise: 192 was very small time, you will be at a real beginner's level with this 192 hrs, also nothing these guys are teaching is something new, never taught, life changing. The languages, the approach, even the last classes on how to modify the current resume and how to advertise ourselves in Linkedin, etc.., all of this can be taugh and shown. And it is on the internet. So you can learn for free like thousand guys did before you. OK, good point.
So.., if not this, what then?

I found 3 sites some time ago, which I am sure you guys heard of them before: The Odin project (theodinproject.com), Epicodus free videos and curriculum available online in LearnHowtoProgram (learnhowtoprogram.com) and a new site I found 2 weeks ago that is only 200 days old Freecodecamp (freecodecamp.com)
The 3 of them gear towards becoming a full stack developer/front end/back end developer and the amount of hours are in the neighbourhood of 800-1600. You have support groups and freecodecamp has live chat and pair programming. Plus you have real projects, live ones for you to pick up and contribute. The idea is to have a selling portfolio and land a real jr. developer job.
Quite a difference uh? and it is for free and all you need is discipline, motivation, you know the drill.

So how did I do it? Well, at least for me was simple, very simple: you have clear waypoints/check marks you need to complete before moving on. That is you have steps to complete like real life, real classes. So I didnt feel it like I was lost without guidance, at least for me that helped me a lot. This time I felt that I was following a path someone made for me and that it was right for me to follow it, to learn using my time and that I shouldnt fear the process of changing i was feeling inside.
I wouldnt dare to cheat, you know, marking waypoints as completed only to feel i am advancing. what would be the point in doing so? you will only hurt yourself and your chance of becoming a programmer.
How Do i feel now? I am motivated and dedicated to become a developèr. If others could, if others succeeded, then hell I wont do it!!

TheOdin is geared towards Ruby/Ruby on Rails. Freecodecamp aims exclusively towards Javascript and the third choice is a combination of PHP + Ruby and Rails. Please feel free to check the curriculum for the 3 sites

What I liked about these free options was that since day 1 you are giving a clear set of instructions to follow in order to have your command line+Ruby, git and github accounts set up, heroku account.., what they call "the installation".
Although they favour Linux/OS systems, Windows users, like me, have clear instructions too.
Some claim Ruby doesnt work in Win but I will let you know once I am there and fully programming in Ruby.
I discovered something about myself: I dont need to be in a classroom to follow instructions. exercises and feel myself motivated. For the first time since I learned about this post.., I can definitely say I know what I want, how I will get it and that the future seems nicer and brighter at least for me.

I will keep you posted regarding my progress. Maybe once I have completed this I will give Python a real shot. There is money out there fellas and I want a piece of the pie.

Cheers
Jay.

[TravellerJay]

I forgot to mention I am doing the The Odin Project curriculum. Still in early stage BUT like I mentioned in my previous post, if you follow the guidelines you cannot miss it.
I found today this guy site where he followed his own guide, very much like our friend FrenchCorporation and then later found TOP site. He even recommends it with a couple of changes he strongly recommends.
He found a job as developer, from zero to hero, in roughly 7 months, around 700 hrs of total training. So it is doable, like many have gotten before us.
I leave here his site with correction notes, in case someone wants to follow along with me.

http://everydayutilitarian.com/essays/no...n-project/

Jay

[frenchcorporation]

since my last update, I've had two other jobs

The first change was to move closer back home (big mistake), and I got fired from that job early on. I try to push myelf, and the job responsibilities were too much of a stretch this time.

However I landed another job within two weeks of getting fired so it wasnt the end of the world

Now in a few days I have an interview at a world-famous company for a contract job that pays £400-£450 a day. The interesting thing about this one is that I have the option of working three days a week, or five days a week.

To get to this position, I learnt another programming language,kept building software, kept blogging on tech-related stuff etc. I also started digging into algorithim stuff, in preparation for getting into quant developer stuff at some time in the future

I've recently started a tech consulting business with my friends, so I'm going to take the 3 days a week option if I get the job. My assessment is that the contract won't last forever, and having 2 extra days to grow my own business while having more than enough to live on is the way forward

If anybody has any experience of a similar work schedule I'd be interested in hearing how it was for you, as there's nobody I know personally that has been in a similar situation

[Moma]

french, from knowing nothing to now..you are now at the point where you can interview for at least $400 a day or do your own thing in coding, am I correct?