[oldnemesis]

(07-20-2010 01:42 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

I disagree with some of this. A Christian can have an affair with a married woman and still be saved or a Christian.

This seems to be a typical Catholic view, which is mostly business-oriented. Their goal is to keep a person in their church forever, accepting as many donations as possible. They are in a business, and didn't really go far away from Middle Ages when they ran a successful business selling indulgences. Eastern Orthodox or Jehovah Witness religion is much stricter in this case.

But in any case it is just speculation. Nobody could be sure he is going to be saved, because this would be an attempt to judge yourself, and you could hardly be expected an unbiased judge. I once read an article which claimed that roughly 70% of prison population consider themselves innocent and not deserving prison time, so assuming that half of those who believe they gonna make it into heaven would not make it seems like a safe bet to me.

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A sin is a sin and just because you have faith in God doesnt mean your gonna stop sinning completely.

Then, assuming there is god which really watches us (lol), what makes one different when you have a Christian murderer and atheist murderer? If the only difference is that Christian believes he murders in the god's name (Allah akbar?) or asks for forgiveness afterward, do you really believe this would be enough? This doesn't even work in human court, and unlike your regular judge, god is expected to know what you really think and why you really did that. Do you really think that blaming Satan for your actions would cut you any slack?

[Dash Global]

(07-20-2010 04:48 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(07-20-2010 01:42 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

I disagree with some of this. A Christian can have an affair with a married woman and still be saved or a Christian.

This seems to be a typical Catholic view, which is mostly business-oriented. Their goal is to keep a person in their church forever, accepting as many donations as possible. They are in a business, and didn't really go far away from Middle Ages when they ran a successful business selling indulgences. Eastern Orthodox or Jehovah Witness religion is much stricter in this case.

But in any case it is just speculation. Nobody could be sure he is going to be saved, because this would be an attempt to judge yourself, and you could hardly be expected an unbiased judge. I once read an article which claimed that roughly 70% of prison population consider themselves innocent and not deserving prison time, so assuming that half of those who believe they gonna make it into heaven would not make it seems like a safe bet to me.

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A sin is a sin and just because you have faith in God doesnt mean your gonna stop sinning completely.

Then, assuming there is god which really watches us (lol), what makes one different when you have a Christian murderer and atheist murderer? If the only difference is that Christian believes he murders in the god's name (Allah akbar?) or asks for forgiveness afterward, do you really believe this would be enough? This doesn't even work in human court, and unlike your regular judge, god is expected to know what you really think and why you really did that. Do you really think that blaming Satan for your actions would cut you any slack?

there is no diff between a christian murderer and an atheist murderer. you will be held responsible for your actions. in this world and the next. and yes God forgives us from everything so if you truly mean it than it is good enough. blaming satan will not cut anyone any slack bc you have a choice in your actions. all that is is an excuse.

[oldnemesis]

(07-20-2010 08:03 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

there is no diff between a christian murderer and an atheist murderer. you will be held responsible for your actions. in this world and the next. and yes God forgives us from everything so if you truly mean it than it is good enough. blaming satan will not cut anyone any slack bc you have a choice in your actions. all that is is an excuse.

The way I interpreted what you say is that someone can steal, rape, have sex with underage boys and still be considered Christian and be saved just because he thinks he has a personal relationship with Jesus? This is kinda fucked up.

So what is then the whole point of being Christian, if you can just ask all those 5000+ gods (Buddha, Allah, Jehova, Zeus, Odin and so on) to forgive you right before you die, and apparently be saved?

[hydrogonian]

(07-18-2010 05:04 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I gotcha man. I realize belief in some sort of a god is pretty much universal. Maybe there are a few small exceptions of some isolated tribe with no creation belief, but 99.9% of humanity has always believed in something or another. I don't know if it's an innate spirituality or just a desire to explain things that can't be explained prior to the advent of science. I mean if you are an eskimo thousands of years ago and you see the aurora in the sky, you almost have to think it's something supernatural because they wouldn't understand the truth even if you explained it to them i.e. solar particles clashing with the earth's magnetic field. Of if there's an earthquake, you think you angered some god or unseen force of nature. Even today, people attribute everything they can't explain to God, until science and logic provide an explanation. I always get a chuckle when I hear some woman whose home was demolished by a tornado say, "It was God that spared us and he must have some special purpose for us!" I guess she never asked why God didn't spare all her neighbors who are now dead and who probably went to the same neighborhood church. Religious people can annoy the hell out of me sometimes when they say stuff like that. I'm like, really??? You think YOU are so important that the creator of the universe had to spare just YOU and to hell with your neighbors? Gimme a fucking break.

I feel the same way.

(07-19-2010 09:03 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Atheist is not someone who believes there is no god. Atheist is someone who rejects the belief in god, typically on some logical grounds, Occam razor being the most popular. If you ask a typical atheist whether he would believe in god if he is proven beyond reasonable doubt that god exist, in most cases I bet the answer would be "yes".

In my opinion there are no agnostics. If you look on it the way every religion does, it does not really matter what you believe. It matters what you do. A Christian who has an affair is not Christian even if he claims he believes in Jesus. An atheist who follorws Ramadan and does Namaz "just in case" is not really an atheist.

Some people define agnostics as someone who does not know if there is a god. This is an useless definition which makes everyone agnostic. Nobody knows if there is a god, even hardcore Christians just believe there is god, and atheists reject such belief. So if you behave like there is no god (like having sex outside marriage), you are basically no different from atheist, even if you believe in god. If you behave like Christian, following the bible and going to church, you are technically a theist.

In short, you either act like there is god, or you are not.

PS. Here in NorCal getting into a bar with a shirt saying "Free drinks to anyone who can prove God exists" generates some funny attention.

I understand where your logic is coming from, but disagree with it on a number of points. Especially everything in the last long paragraph. But I'm not one who enjoys continuous debating about basic definitions. Ive kind of reached my limit already. I accept that you hold your views. The beauty about choice, that many religious people fail to utilize regularly, is that humans can agree to disagree.

But I will say that there is an extremely strong philosophical base for agnosticism that goes beyond the Aristotelean logic used here (if 'x' is 'a', then 'y' is 'b'.) I can refer you to the study of general semantics (the original linguistic science behind NLP) as well as Zen Buddhism. One being a logical proof of agnosticism, and the other, at its core, being a very old philosophical practice of agnosticism (there is no 'is'). I can refer books if requested.

[Dash Global]

(07-21-2010 03:21 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(07-20-2010 08:03 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

there is no diff between a christian murderer and an atheist murderer. you will be held responsible for your actions. in this world and the next. and yes God forgives us from everything so if you truly mean it than it is good enough. blaming satan will not cut anyone any slack bc you have a choice in your actions. all that is is an excuse.

The way I interpreted what you say is that someone can steal, rape, have sex with underage boys and still be considered Christian and be saved just because he thinks he has a personal relationship with Jesus? This is kinda fucked up.

So what is then the whole point of being Christian, if you can just ask all those 5000+ gods (Buddha, Allah, Jehova, Zeus, Odin and so on) to forgive you right before you die, and apparently be saved?

Your interpreting it wrong. What im saying is that actions is not what saves you ie good or bad. Its 100% faith and building a relationship. Christians still sin but the difference is they are gonna do it less frequently, feel bad "convicted" about it, and ask for forgiveness. And work / strive to live better. And just because someone thinks their saved doesnt actually mean their saved.

Well for one if there is a God, there is only one imo The major / most followed religions all only have one "God" ie Christianity, Islam ect. So if you did ask for forgiveness you would need to be asking the right one. There is problems with that though. For one asking forgiveness is not what saves you, you have to have faith that there is one true God for forgiveness to mean anything. Thats gonna be hard to make yourself have 100% true faith in a matter of minutes on your death bed no??? Another thing, how many people get time to do stuff / fully think knowing your gonna die?? Not many. There is no guarantee how long you have to live, soo when i hear people say im just gonna wait till im older they are taking a huge risk because we are not promised tomm.

Hope some of that helps

[oldnemesis]

(07-22-2010 02:00 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

Your interpreting it wrong. What im saying is that actions is not what saves you ie good or bad. Its 100% faith and building a relationship. Christians still sin but the difference is they are gonna do it less frequently, feel bad "convicted" about it, and ask for forgiveness. And work / strive to live better. And just because someone thinks their saved doesnt actually mean their saved.

Wasn't that exactly what I said before, when I said that someone can steal, rape, have sex with underage boys and still be considered Christian and think that he will be saved just because he thinks (as there is no way to tell) he has 100% faith and a relationship with Jesus? You said I interpreted it wrong, but why? To me what you said in a quoted part is pretty much what I said - actions do not matter, only relationship matters.

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Well for one if there is a God, there is only one imo The major / most followed religions all only have one "God" ie Christianity, Islam ect.

This is a "million lemmings must not be wrong" type of argument. "Most followed religion" is basically result of human advertising through some way (like "day of prayer"), and speaks nothing whether it is true or not. None of them actually seen their god, so their opinion is pretty much speculation.

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So if you did ask for forgiveness you would need to be asking the right one. There is problems with that though. For one asking forgiveness is not what saves you, you have to have faith that there is one true God for forgiveness to mean anything. Thats gonna be hard to make yourself have 100% true faith in a matter of minutes on your death bed no???

Then it is not worth it. I can imagine that I would do better by admitting no one as a true god than by admitting a wrong one. This would really piss off a true one, while those who did not make a decision might get some slack cut. And choosing the true one out of 5,000 (and you cannot even be sure the true one is listed there) is a chance not worth pursuing.

[jivan]

(07-15-2010 11:31 AM)upandcoming1 Wrote:  

anyone ever lost faith or felt they needed to switch a church. i say that because right im having doubts because my mom is sick with lung cancer ive been praying even church members havent help much. jus prayin for her and not prayin for me at church. so i kind of giving up with God.

Hey Barbak....
When i read your post i feel sad about your mother and i pray to god to hear your prayers and heal you mother. I think this is the time for you to be strong in god. This can also be a test for your faith and your belief in him. I also have had problems in my family. My grandmother got paralyzed plus my mother got asthma almost together. We prayed and for long time there was no answer to the prayer. I almost became atheist but my mother herself believed that god will heal her and that made me even strong and you know there was a miracle, my mother got healed. My grandmother is also getting well. I guess you got the answer... Though there may be no one to stand by you or not be strong in your belief and don't let your mom's belief go down. Miracles do happen. You see it everyday but what you and your mom need is strong faith and continuity in your prayers.....

Lords peace be with you...

[Dash Global]

(07-23-2010 02:14 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(07-22-2010 02:00 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

Your interpreting it wrong. What im saying is that actions is not what saves you ie good or bad. Its 100% faith and building a relationship. Christians still sin but the difference is they are gonna do it less frequently, feel bad "convicted" about it, and ask for forgiveness. And work / strive to live better. And just because someone thinks their saved doesnt actually mean their saved.

Wasn't that exactly what I said before, when I said that someone can steal, rape, have sex with underage boys and still be considered Christian and think that he will be saved just because he thinks (as there is no way to tell) he has 100% faith and a relationship with Jesus? You said I interpreted it wrong, but why? To me what you said in a quoted part is pretty much what I said - actions do not matter, only relationship matters.

Quote:

Well for one if there is a God, there is only one imo The major / most followed religions all only have one "God" ie Christianity, Islam ect.

This is a "million lemmings must not be wrong" type of argument. "Most followed religion" is basically result of human advertising through some way (like "day of prayer"), and speaks nothing whether it is true or not. None of them actually seen their god, so their opinion is pretty much speculation.

Quote:

So if you did ask for forgiveness you would need to be asking the right one. There is problems with that though. For one asking forgiveness is not what saves you, you have to have faith that there is one true God for forgiveness to mean anything. Thats gonna be hard to make yourself have 100% true faith in a matter of minutes on your death bed no???

Then it is not worth it. I can imagine that I would do better by admitting no one as a true god than by admitting a wrong one. This would really piss off a true one, while those who did not make a decision might get some slack cut. And choosing the true one out of 5,000 (and you cannot even be sure the true one is listed there) is a chance not worth pursuing.

Actions are apart of Christianity, but they are a RESULT of the faith and relationship. You do not do good in order to be saved. You become saved and your actions and thoughts about them will change as a result. Its and after product per say. So to answer your original question yes and no. If you are truly saved than your actions will show it in some way or another.

I disagree, the more followers at the very least gives a religion more credibility. Try starting a religion and see how many people follow you. People look to make decisions on "majority/popularity" all the time. If i ask which is the best place to go and almost everyone tells me one place and 3 people tell me another place im going to choose the former. But here is the thing that people seem to not think about. In most religions there is no huge punishment / consequence for not believing in them. So lets take Budhism and Hinduism. If one is correct you will find out in the next reincarnated life and then you could start practicing it to reincarnate at a higher level or status the next go around / life. So you are not completely screwed if you didnt believe that religion in your first life. You do that with Christianity and if it turns out to be right you are screwed FOREVER in the worst possible way imaginable. Lets look at the third largest belief system Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist. If they are right than nothing happens when we die. We all share the same fate whether we believe there is no God or not. Religion is sorta like a poker game. Id place my bet with the lowest risk ( ie the consequences im forgoing with non belief is minimal ) / most credible religion. Life / Eternity is something i wouldnt want to risk.

That is clearly a wrong thought process on your part. Its just like a test. You dont leave an answer blank, you go ahead and make an educated guess. So in reality your not better off by admitting no one as a true God , because you will have the same outcome regardless of if you didnt choose or chose the wrong God. You gain nothing with that thought process. And if you didnt make a choice and Islam or Christianity is the true religion than that God(s) says clearly he will not be cutting any slack for non believers. In life you always want to have "safe guards". Religion is no different.

[oldnemesis]

(07-23-2010 12:05 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

If you are truly saved than your actions will show it in some way or another.

So is it reasonable to assume that someone who is committing adultery despite calling themselves Christian and being in relationship with Jesus is NOT truly saved? Are pedophile Catholic priests saved? I do not doubt they have relationship with Jesus, but their actions do not support that.

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I disagree, the more followers at the very least gives a religion more credibility.

No, it does not. The religion is a classic hearsay - none of followers seen their god and cannot confirm its existence, motives or goals. All their religion experience is third-party, and they just repeat what someone else told them (either orally or in writing). But even if everyone repeats the same hearsay it does not get more credibility because of that. Some time ago everyone believed the Earth is flat, and despite that the Earth was not flat. Quite a lot of people in Africa still believes that you can cure AIDS if you rape a virgin (and it became a major problem there), but even if we all follow that, it will not change the fact AIDS cannot be cured this way. "One million lemmings must not be wrong" is as weak argument as personal testimonials.

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Try starting a religion and see how many people follow you.

This is actually very easy - it is just matter of resources. Just look on Saddleback Church. Spend a lot of money on advertising, bring a few politicians and Hollywood actors, and you're there. But try to remove the governmental support of religion (including tax exempt status of churches), and see how quickly the religion disappears - after two or three generations you'll likely see less than ten percent of population doing any religion.

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People look to make decisions on "majority/popularity" all the time. If i ask which is the best place to go and almost everyone tells me one place and 3 people tell me another place im going to choose the former.

You're mixing opinion versus facts. "Best place to go" is just an opinion, same as the best color or whether you should have a mustache. Facts are things like 2*2=4, and even if ten people tell you that 2*2=6 it still won't mean that 2*2=6.

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But here is the thing that people seem to not think about. In most religions there is no huge punishment / consequence for not believing in them. So lets take Budhism and Hinduism. If one is correct you will find out in the next reincarnated life and then you could start practicing it to reincarnate at a higher level or status the next go around / life. So you are not completely screwed if you didnt believe that religion in your first life.

You are talking about Hinduism (or Theravada Buddhism). AFAIK Mahayana Buddhism does not have concept of reincarnated life.

Also you chose the easy target. What about Islam? What about Judaism?

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You do that with Christianity and if it turns out to be right you are screwed FOREVER in the worst possible way imaginable.

You are saying it like Christianity is a single religion. This is not the case; for example Jehovah Witnesses are Christians but they believe that they are the only ones who gonna be saved. Catholics (Christians) generally do not believe Eastern Orthodox (also Christians) will be saved and vice versa. Sure, the basics look the same, but the difference is in details, and those details are important enough to determine one's salvation.

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Lets look at the third largest belief system Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist. If they are right than nothing happens when we die. We all share the same fate whether we believe there is no God or not. Religion is sorta like a poker game. Id place my bet with the lowest risk ( ie the consequences im forgoing with non belief is minimal ) / most credible religion. Life / Eternity is something i wouldnt want to risk.

What you're talking about is a well-common concept called Pascal's Wager. Scroll down to "Criticism" section and you will see common counter-arguments. Here is another layman counter-argument. If you are familiar with game theory and advanced math, I can try to find another good article, but from what I remember it was really master's level.

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That is clearly a wrong thought process on your part. Its just like a test. You dont leave an answer blank, you go ahead and make an educated guess.

Not really, because nobody requires you to answer the question (or even to pass the test). You decide to yourself that you want to pass it.

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So in reality your not better off by admitting no one as a true God , because you will have the same outcome regardless of if you didnt choose or chose the wrong God.

This has nothing to do with reality. This is based on assumption that the god treats those who praise no god the same way as those who praise the wrong (or competing) god. Which is unlikely to be the case.

[Dash Global]

(07-23-2010 10:30 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(07-23-2010 12:05 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

If you are truly saved than your actions will show it in some way or another.

So is it reasonable to assume that someone who is committing adultery despite calling themselves Christian and being in relationship with Jesus is NOT truly saved? Are pedophile Catholic priests saved? I do not doubt they have relationship with Jesus, but their actions do not support that.

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I disagree, the more followers at the very least gives a religion more credibility.

No, it does not. The religion is a classic hearsay - none of followers seen their god and cannot confirm its existence, motives or goals. All their religion experience is third-party, and they just repeat what someone else told them (either orally or in writing). But even if everyone repeats the same hearsay it does not get more credibility because of that. Some time ago everyone believed the Earth is flat, and despite that the Earth was not flat. Quite a lot of people in Africa still believes that you can cure AIDS if you rape a virgin (and it became a major problem there), but even if we all follow that, it will not change the fact AIDS cannot be cured this way. "One million lemmings must not be wrong" is as weak argument as personal testimonials.

Quote:

Try starting a religion and see how many people follow you.

This is actually very easy - it is just matter of resources. Just look on Saddleback Church. Spend a lot of money on advertising, bring a few politicians and Hollywood actors, and you're there. But try to remove the governmental support of religion (including tax exempt status of churches), and see how quickly the religion disappears - after two or three generations you'll likely see less than ten percent of population doing any religion.

Quote:

People look to make decisions on "majority/popularity" all the time. If i ask which is the best place to go and almost everyone tells me one place and 3 people tell me another place im going to choose the former.

You're mixing opinion versus facts. "Best place to go" is just an opinion, same as the best color or whether you should have a mustache. Facts are things like 2*2=4, and even if ten people tell you that 2*2=6 it still won't mean that 2*2=6.

Quote:

But here is the thing that people seem to not think about. In most religions there is no huge punishment / consequence for not believing in them. So lets take Budhism and Hinduism. If one is correct you will find out in the next reincarnated life and then you could start practicing it to reincarnate at a higher level or status the next go around / life. So you are not completely screwed if you didnt believe that religion in your first life.

You are talking about Hinduism (or Theravada Buddhism). AFAIK Mahayana Buddhism does not have concept of reincarnated life.

Also you chose the easy target. What about Islam? What about Judaism?

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You do that with Christianity and if it turns out to be right you are screwed FOREVER in the worst possible way imaginable.

You are saying it like Christianity is a single religion. This is not the case; for example Jehovah Witnesses are Christians but they believe that they are the only ones who gonna be saved. Catholics (Christians) generally do not believe Eastern Orthodox (also Christians) will be saved and vice versa. Sure, the basics look the same, but the difference is in details, and those details are important enough to determine one's salvation.

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Lets look at the third largest belief system Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist. If they are right than nothing happens when we die. We all share the same fate whether we believe there is no God or not. Religion is sorta like a poker game. Id place my bet with the lowest risk ( ie the consequences im forgoing with non belief is minimal ) / most credible religion. Life / Eternity is something i wouldnt want to risk.

What you're talking about is a well-common concept called Pascal's Wager. Scroll down to "Criticism" section and you will see common counter-arguments. Here is another layman counter-argument. If you are familiar with game theory and advanced math, I can try to find another good article, but from what I remember it was really master's level.

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That is clearly a wrong thought process on your part. Its just like a test. You dont leave an answer blank, you go ahead and make an educated guess.

Not really, because nobody requires you to answer the question (or even to pass the test). You decide to yourself that you want to pass it.

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So in reality your not better off by admitting no one as a true God , because you will have the same outcome regardless of if you didnt choose or chose the wrong God.

This has nothing to do with reality. This is based on assumption that the god treats those who praise no god the same way as those who praise the wrong (or competing) god. Which is unlikely to be the case.

We are not to judge ones salvation. That is between them and God. Yes it prob would be reasonable to assume they are not saved but then again they could easily be saved also. Each is a possible scenario. Only that person and God really knows.

That is simply your opinion on whether it gives credibility or not as it was my opinion that it does. Another way to examine religions is to check for discrepancies. Take Mormonism for example. They talk of huge cities in North America and there is no trace of them, no trace of Hebrew, no nothing to support their claim. John Smith claimed to be a prophet but had a false prophecy with by Bible terms shows him for a fraud. They claim to go off of the Bible yet their is major differences and problems that arise when you compare the two. When comparing religions you should use all resources and info to help make the best decision. There is no right way or set in stone practice for this. To each his own.

Hmm it is not easy to get get as many followers as im referring to. Im not talking about hundreds or thousands. To be a major religion you need millions of followers.

Judaism and Islam like Christianity have that eternal hell damnation punishment for non followers if my thinking is correct. What id advise here is to examine all three and put you money on the one with the least problems per say when put under a microscope.

Me and you have different definitions for Christians than. My definition of a Christian is one that follows the Bible's God/Jesus without using any other material. The only people that consider JW christians are JW's lol. If you look at these religions hard you will notice many have one thing in common. They claim to be Christians and follow / use stuff from the Bible, but to make them different they add to the Bible in forms of other scriptures / documents to support their "other" beliefs. You are referring to denominations, which I personally believe is a joke. I was raised in a Baptist Church but i dont claim to be Baptist.

Yes you are correct. People call this concept Pascals Wager. I havent heard any counter argument that makes this not feasible. My claim was facts that can not be changed. Fact - If atheist is right nothing happens to either Christian or atheist. Fact - if Christians are right the atheist is screwed. The way i see it is its a way to try and discredit the facts that make the atheists look incredibly dumb and irrational.

How do you know no one requires you to answer the test? (afterlife / religion choice) If the Christian God exists than yes you are required to "answer the questions" and if you dont you fail (hell) So that is your own opinion / guess whether or not you need to answer the question or pass the test. You are not in control if there is a higher being.

There is nothing to assume. God clearly states how he is gonna treat non believers. Once you have heard about God / Christianity you have a choice of whether or not to believe and follow or not to. Not to is gonna send you to hell. Bible clearly states this.

[InternationPlayboy]

(07-16-2010 02:32 PM)Nonpareil Wrote:  

(07-16-2010 09:34 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

I can see how you'd feel that way. I'm not an atheist, but an agnostic (meaning I don't have any hard and fast beliefs that a god does or doesn't exist).

I think a lot of atheists are jaded from religious people trying to jam it down their throats their entire life, or they otherwise are fed up with the so many blatant hypocrisies in modern religion. So, they wind up seeing religious belief as being a failure of thought or character. Its probably difficult for them to hold back their distaste, given their views. They need to learn to judge people individually.

I try to do as much, but all bets are off when someone tries to "save" me or otherwise solicit me to come to their church in a public place.

Oh, and a lot of atheists may be sluts, but Ive fucked far more sluts with religion than atheists. Its funny, that you can be fucking a slutty girl over a period of time, and then you'll uncover some weird religious hangup about what she will and wont do Examples include: sex (ever met the always hilarious anal whore/vaginal virgin?) abortion, three ways, dirty talk (arrgghh!-the worst), etc. I think its the hard wired shame mechanism of their religious upbringing that they weren't able to shake loose, despite letting themselves be free in other ways. They seem conflicted to me, but I would never challenge that.

Atheists are fed up with the hipocrisy of religion, I've heard this before...but what they fail to see is that Atheism is essentially comforming by choosing not to conform.

Really, if they just shut up and stopped judging everything and one, they'd be fine, but there are few who can. I'd say my own views, if anything, are Agnostic.

Funny that you mention the girl who lets you fuck her in the ass to retain her vaginal virginity ('vaginal virginity' is a delicate term, let's assume she's never masturbated ). Me personally I haven't dealt with them, but my buddy is actually marrying a girl that he only got to fuck in the ass for the first few months.

For me and most atheists I know it has nothing to do with conforming or not conforming. If you read these crazy religious books, it's obvious these things didn't happen. It's about common sense. Do you actually think some dude rounded up every single animal in the world and made a boat big enough to put all the animals on it. It doesn't makes sense at all. Noah would have had to discover the Americas first of all, because there are animals that only live in the Americas. These books are way outdated and people still believe them. It's kind of crazy to me. I don't give a shit if I'm a conformist or non conformist, I just don't believe any of that shit.

[oldnemesis]

(07-24-2010 01:53 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

We are not to judge ones salvation. That is between them and God. Yes it prob would be reasonable to assume they are not saved but then again they could easily be saved also. Each is a possible scenario. Only that person and God really knows.

My whole point is that that person does not KNOW it at all. Only god knows it, and nobody is guaranteed to be saved, just because "god has its own ways" and because a lot of things in modern Christianity is based on bible interpretations which are done by other humans - who are imperfect and prone to mistakes. An obvious evidence of that is that there are over 100 different religions based on a single bible, which often contradict each other - but at the same time each of them claims to be the only "true" religion.

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Another way to examine religions is to check for discrepancies. Take Mormonism for example. They talk of huge cities in North America and there is no trace of them, no trace of Hebrew, no nothing to support their claim.

Well, no religion passes check for discrepancies. Take Christianity for example, some of branches still claims evolution did not happen (failed; see genome difference test between a human and a chimp), the Earth is 5000 years old (failed), Noah Ark and Great Flood really happened (failed miserably). There are even more logical fallacies. Christian definition of a god being omnipotent and omniscient at the same time contradict with each others. A definition of god being omniscient contradicts with assumption that you have free will in his eyes. A whole doctrine of god creating humans imperfect and not being able to follow simple rules, and then punishing his creations for that sounds pretty unnatural as well. In fact omnipotence is the main issue which raises philosophical problem of evil.

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Judaism and Islam like Christianity have that eternal hell damnation punishment for non followers if my thinking is correct. What id advise here is to examine all three and put you money on the one with the least problems per say when put under a microscope.

Makes no sense as there is a good chance all three of them are corrupted and not really true religion. The only benefit I see from choosing between three of them is that you'll screw up together with quite a lot of people. But if you think about it, it makes little sense as the hell is not going to get colder just because there are couple billions of people instead of couple hundreds.

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Me and you have different definitions for Christians than. My definition of a Christian is one that follows the Bible's God/Jesus without using any other material.

Unfortunately this would just lead to developing your own religion. The way the bible is written (yes, I have read it; I have read Qur'an as well) it can be interpreted in many different ways, and none of interpreters could prove that their interpretation is in fact better, or more valid than any other. This is the main reason there are a lot of Christian religions and each of them consider itself the only true religion, and can prove it to you using the bible. Just look on those differences between major denominations.

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Yes you are correct. People call this concept Pascals Wager. I havent heard any counter argument that makes this not feasible. My claim was facts that can not be changed. Fact - If atheist is right nothing happens to either Christian or atheist. Fact - if Christians are right the atheist is screwed. The way i see it is its a way to try and discredit the facts that make the atheists look incredibly dumb and irrational.

Well, if you put it in a way that what you claim is ultimate truth which cannot be even disputed, as you didn't even make an attempt to read the links I posted, it makes no sense to continue this discussion.
(and calling opponents "dumb" without providing any counter-arguments is very noble of you. Must be exactly what Jesus taught!)

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How do you know no one requires you to answer the test? (afterlife / religion choice)
If the Christian God exists than yes you are required to "answer the questions" and if you dont you fail (hell)

That is what I mean by saying that nobody is asking you to pass the test. You make the thing up first (Christian god exists), then you believe into it and only then you decide you need to answer the question this imaginable god is asking you - but at this moment your answer is obvious and carries no real value.

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So that is your own opinion / guess whether or not you need to answer the question or pass the test. You are not in control if there is a higher being.

Not really. There may be higher being which doesn't really care about humans at all anymore. There may be higher being but no afterlife (most believers in Judaism). There may be higher being and heaven, but no hell (that's what JW or Seven Day Adventists believe). There may be higher being with no hell but constant reincarnation until you're in Nirvana/heaven (Buddhism). There may be higher being with no hell and heaven but constant reincarnation on "higher" levels (Scientology). The religious world is very diversified, and very limited number of religions have the concept of hell.

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There is nothing to assume. God clearly states how he is gonna treat non believers.

No, this is not correct. Your god never stated anything to me, and I don't think he ever stated anything to you. You just got this idea from a man-made book which is not different from any other book (like Scientology books). You may claim this book is inspired by god, but you have no evidence to prove this claim. Which you do not have.

[Dash Global]

(07-24-2010 08:41 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(07-24-2010 01:53 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

We are not to judge ones salvation. That is between them and God. Yes it prob would be reasonable to assume they are not saved but then again they could easily be saved also. Each is a possible scenario. Only that person and God really knows.

My whole point is that that person does not KNOW it at all. Only god knows it, and nobody is guaranteed to be saved, just because "god has its own ways" and because a lot of things in modern Christianity is based on bible interpretations which are done by other humans - who are imperfect and prone to mistakes. An obvious evidence of that is that there are over 100 different religions based on a single bible, which often contradict each other - but at the same time each of them claims to be the only "true" religion.

Quote:

Another way to examine religions is to check for discrepancies. Take Mormonism for example. They talk of huge cities in North America and there is no trace of them, no trace of Hebrew, no nothing to support their claim.

Well, no religion passes check for discrepancies. Take Christianity for example, some of branches still claims evolution did not happen (failed; see genome difference test between a human and a chimp), the Earth is 5000 years old (failed), Noah Ark and Great Flood really happened (failed miserably). There are even more logical fallacies. Christian definition of a god being omnipotent and omniscient at the same time contradict with each others. A definition of god being omniscient contradicts with assumption that you have free will in his eyes. A whole doctrine of god creating humans imperfect and not being able to follow simple rules, and then punishing his creations for that sounds pretty unnatural as well. In fact omnipotence is the main issue which raises philosophical problem of evil.

Quote:

Judaism and Islam like Christianity have that eternal hell damnation punishment for non followers if my thinking is correct. What id advise here is to examine all three and put you money on the one with the least problems per say when put under a microscope.

Makes no sense as there is a good chance all three of them are corrupted and not really true religion. The only benefit I see from choosing between three of them is that you'll screw up together with quite a lot of people. But if you think about it, it makes little sense as the hell is not going to get colder just because there are couple billions of people instead of couple hundreds.

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Me and you have different definitions for Christians than. My definition of a Christian is one that follows the Bible's God/Jesus without using any other material.

Unfortunately this would just lead to developing your own religion. The way the bible is written (yes, I have read it; I have read Qur'an as well) it can be interpreted in many different ways, and none of interpreters could prove that their interpretation is in fact better, or more valid than any other. This is the main reason there are a lot of Christian religions and each of them consider itself the only true religion, and can prove it to you using the bible. Just look on those differences between major denominations.

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Yes you are correct. People call this concept Pascals Wager. I havent heard any counter argument that makes this not feasible. My claim was facts that can not be changed. Fact - If atheist is right nothing happens to either Christian or atheist. Fact - if Christians are right the atheist is screwed. The way i see it is its a way to try and discredit the facts that make the atheists look incredibly dumb and irrational.

Well, if you put it in a way that what you claim is ultimate truth which cannot be even disputed, as you didn't even make an attempt to read the links I posted, it makes no sense to continue this discussion.
(and calling opponents "dumb" without providing any counter-arguments is very noble of you. Must be exactly what Jesus taught!)

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How do you know no one requires you to answer the test? (afterlife / religion choice)
If the Christian God exists than yes you are required to "answer the questions" and if you dont you fail (hell)

That is what I mean by saying that nobody is asking you to pass the test. You make the thing up first (Christian god exists), then you believe into it and only then you decide you need to answer the question this imaginable god is asking you - but at this moment your answer is obvious and carries no real value.

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So that is your own opinion / guess whether or not you need to answer the question or pass the test. You are not in control if there is a higher being.

Not really. There may be higher being which doesn't really care about humans at all anymore. There may be higher being but no afterlife (most believers in Judaism). There may be higher being and heaven, but no hell (that's what JW or Seven Day Adventists believe). There may be higher being with no hell but constant reincarnation until you're in Nirvana/heaven (Buddhism). There may be higher being with no hell and heaven but constant reincarnation on "higher" levels (Scientology). The religious world is very diversified, and very limited number of religions have the concept of hell.

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There is nothing to assume. God clearly states how he is gonna treat non believers.

No, this is not correct. Your god never stated anything to me, and I don't think he ever stated anything to you. You just got this idea from a man-made book which is not different from any other book (like Scientology books). You may claim this book is inspired by god, but you have no evidence to prove this claim. Which you do not have.

if God is real then the Bible has to be correct. The bible is the single most important thing to Christianity. So if their is a God, than there is no way he would let / allow humans distort and corrupt the foundation of his teachings / existence. The 100 different religions / denominations are purposely interpreted wrong and also the religion creator produces "other" documents claiming them to be holy scripture in almost all cases trying to validate the changes or other interpretations.

The theory of Evolution is still a theory and not proven. (im talking about species evolving into another species, not species adapting to their surroundings and conditions) In order for the theory of evolution to be valid one you would need to have spontaneous generation which states that under the proper conditions of temperature, time, place, etc., decaying matter simply turns into organic life. This simplistic idea dominated scientific thinking until 1846 when Louis Pasteur completely shattered the theory by his experiments. He exposed the whole concept as utter foolishness. Under controlled laboratory conditions, in a vacuum, no organic life ever emerged from decaying nonliving matter. Reluctantly it was abandoned as a valid scientific issue. Today no reputable scientist tries to defend it on a demonstrable basis. That is why Webster said it was "now abandoned." It never has been and never can be demonstrated in the test tube. The other issue with the theory of evolution is that you would have to have small changes to species over an extended period of time (missing links) that can be shown with fossil records. Darwin himself stated that if this can not be found than his theory is wrong. As of today no such evidence has been found and the fossil records do not support this theory. Our DNA is 98% the same as monkeys thus proving we evolved from apes. But consider our DNA is also 50% exactly the same as a banana. Going by the logic, surely we should resemble bananas a little bit more -perhaps that's why some of us are slightly more yellow than others or that some of us have dry skin that peels? Or can it point to the fact that everything in creation has share the same designer? And about the earth being 5,000 years old. We do not know how long a "day" is to God. One human day may be a million years to God or equivalent to (im referencing the the 7 day creation story, this could have actually been million or billions of years. we simply do not know for sure). The measuring of earth clumps and fossils in highly not reliable and consistent. Example Volcanic ejecta of Mount Rangitoto (Auckland, New Zealand) was found to have a potassium-40 age of 485,000 years, yet trees buried within the volcanic material were dated with the carbon-14 method to be less than 300 years old. Slight discrepancy? Um, yep. What about a further example from a lava flow off the coast of Hawaii. When dated with the carbon-14 method, the flow appeared to be less than 10 000 to 17 000 years old, but dating with the potassium argon method gives dates of 160 000 to 43 million years. A rock sample from Nigeria was dated at 95 million years by the potassium-argon method, 750 million years by the uranium-helium method, and less than 30 million years by the fission-track method. There is evidence of a catastrophic flood that occurred thousand of years ago. No one can prove that it didnt happen so i dont know why you are bringing it up. And the omnipotent and omniscient issue doesnt jibe neither for God can be in the past, present, and future as one. He is not constraint by time. So him knowing our choice and us making it are not in conflict if he is not bound by time as in can see the future. There is a difference between seeing / knowing the future (hell maybe to God our world is the past, and has already happened, its possible) and deciding that future / outcome. I can know what my friends are gonna do in certain situations in the future, but it was completely their choice.

You did not refute my pascals wager statement. unless you are telling me the outcomes i stated for Christianity and atheists are wrong, but that cant be the case.

Im not sure what you are trying to say about the test concept. if their is a higher being controlling things we have no choice in the matter after the fact. If he in fact carries such stipulations regarding life choices. We simply choose to do or believe something, but that in its self means nothing if their is a higher being controlling things.

On your last comment, here again my statement is under the assumption that the Bible is the real word of God. If in fact the Christian God exists than the Bible is correct, which in turn has a clear outcome for believers and non believers.

[oldnemesis]

(07-25-2010 10:41 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  

if God is real then the Bible has to be correct.

No, this is not the case. Even if Christian god is real (the best chance is 1/5000 as there are around 5,000 known gods and an unknown amount of unnamed gods), even then the bible may be incorrect because unless you talk to this god you would have no way to validate its correctness. If a book says something which is correct, it still doesn't mean everything it says is correct. Look on Scientology's Dianetics.

Quote:

The theory of Evolution is still a theory and not proven. (im talking about species evolving into another species, not species adapting to their surroundings and conditions) In order for the theory of evolution to be valid one you would need to have spontaneous generation which states that under the proper conditions of temperature, time, place, etc., decaying matter simply turns into organic life.

What you're talking about (decaying matter simply turns into organic life) is origin of life, not evolution. Modern Theory of Evolution does not cover the origin of life, it covers evolving species, generally via natural selections and mutations. Meaning it explains how the species evolved, not where the first species came from. This kind of mistake is not acceptable even for a biology school test, not to mention for debate.

<skipped the rest of quote where you talking about origins of life and not evolution>

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Today no reputable scientist tries to defend it on a demonstrable basis. That is why Webster said it was "now abandoned."

Where exactly does it say that in Webster? Prove your words.

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The other issue with the theory of evolution is that you would have to have small changes to species over an extended period of time (missing links) that can be shown with fossil records.

And there are - it is just kinda naive to expect to hear it from your pastor. But if you read Nature or National Geographic, not to mention some serious web sites, you'd know that.

On the other side, there is NO proof about creationism AT ALL!

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Our DNA is 98% the same as monkeys thus proving we evolved from apes. But consider our DNA is also 50% exactly the same as a banana.

I have such discussions in past, and some religious people were notorious of making up everything, including numbers. I want to make sure you are not one of them. Please prove your words by providing a link to a reputable source confirming this information.

Quote:

Example Volcanic ejecta of Mount Rangitoto (Auckland, New Zealand) was found to have a potassium-40 age of 485,000 years, yet trees buried within the volcanic material were dated with the carbon-14 method to be less than 300 years old. Slight discrepancy?

And again, prove your words.

Quote:

I can know what my friends are gonna do in certain situations in the future, but it was completely their choice.

You are ignoring a very important part - you did not create your friend (or his ancestry line). If you did, and were knowing that the way you created them they WOULD do wrong in future, but did nothing to create them in a different way, you would be responsible for their behavior, and not them. Your god, according to you, created Adam and Eva - and being omniscient he already knew his creations would "sin" - but did nothing to prevent it. And now, according to your bible, your god is punishing us because his creations did not behave the way he wanted them to - even though he knew that even before creating them (and he did, since the god is omniscient).

However you still missed the main contradiction between omnipotence and omniscience. If I'm omnipotent and can do anything, this means I do not know the future, because tomorrow I might want to do something which changes the future. Being omniscient means that right now I know exactly everything which happens in future, including my own actions and its consequences - which means I cannot do anything to change the future, and this means I'm not omnipotent.

Quote:

You did not refute my pascals wager statement. unless you are telling me the outcomes i stated for Christianity and atheists are wrong, but that cant be the case.

I provided some links as arguments, and even explained why Pascal's initial concept is invalid - because it is based on assumption that there is either only one Christian god or no god. Even this assumption is plain wrong, since it does not address all known gods and religions (and for some major religions there is no punishment at all for not believing in god). When you insinuate that I did not without even addressing them is plain disrespect.

Quote:

Im not sure what you are trying to say about the test concept. if their is a higher being controlling things we have no choice in the matter after the fact. If he in fact carries such stipulations regarding life choices. We simply choose to do or believe something, but that in its self means nothing if their is a higher being controlling things.

No. If there is higher omniscient thing, you have no choice as this thing knows ahead, in advance, what you gonna do. It should have known that you at this specific time is going to write a reply to my post even before Earth was created (otherwise this thing is not omniscient). This means your higher thing already knew who exactly would be in hell or heaven even before Adam was created, which makes "sin" a pretty weird concept.

Quote:

On your last comment, here again my statement is under the assumption that the Bible is the real word of God. If in fact the Christian God exists than the Bible is correct, which in turn has a clear outcome for believers and non believers.

Too many assumptions needed.
First, you need to assume that a higher being exist.
Second, you need to assume that this higher being is omniscient and omnipotent.
Third, you need to assume that this higher being is only one (and not like Greek's Pantheon from myths)
Fourth, you need to assume that this higher being is something described in the bible.
Fifth, you need to assume that this higher being inspired the bible.

As you see, you need at least five assumptions - NONE of which you can prove. To me, this is too much to simply believe for a rational person.

[InternationPlayboy]

I know many people talk about how there are so many verses in the Koran that talk about killing people for not believing in their god and all sorts of horrible things. I wonder if most people know that the Christian bible is just as bad. It talks about raping, killing, destroying cities, etc etc. I couldn't imagine why anyone would be Christian after reading the bible. Anyone who agrees with killing everyone man women and child in a whole city and raping the women for them not believe in your god, you have something wrong with you. If you're a Christian I encourage you to read the whole bible, and if you are still Christian afterwards, you're down with some fucked up shit. I could post hundreds of quotes that are ridiculous. The bible is very barbarric and outdated.

[thekiller]

Will you Christian haters please step off it, I'm so tired of hearing from popular culture how Christianity is to blame for all the problems today, or how can anyone believe in a God that allows Children to die, etc. GROW UP!! Free will comes with responsibility, and shit happens, get a helmet! A little morality would not hurt our culture today, just look at where all the permissiveness and cultural relativism is leading us.

People seem to forget that America is a young nation that turned out to be a Super Power thanks to the Judeo-Christian work ethic. America is currently in DECLINE because of our growing lack of personal Responsibility and lack of morality.

[oldnemesis]

"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it requires religion to force good people to do bad things"

The main problem I have with Christians is that they cannot simply keep their beliefs to themselves. They are trying to force everyone else to follow their crazy beliefs through laws. Take homosexuality as example - if your fucking god does not like it, just don't do it. But this is not what Christians do - what they do instead is to push the laws making it illegal (and still doing it themselves - a lot of Catholic priests had sex with underage boys). It usually takes the Supreme Court to get rid of those "Christian morality" laws, and while a lot of them have been repealed (abortion, interracial marriage, homosexuality), there is still a long way to go.

I also found it amusing that you talk about "little morality" in a forum which is technically dedicated to adultery. Makes me wonder whether you are one of those "do what I say, not what I do" Christians, like Larry Craig, Mark Sanford and John Edwards?

[deadgabacho]

The metaphysical construct was invented to keep ignorant people under control. It has worked, not worked and gone terribly wrong in thousands of ways over thousands of years. I hope the Buddhists or Paul Coehlo (sp?) are right about a cyclical universe cause I don't wanna rot into nothing which in all likelihood is the reality.

Put down your bibles, torahs, qu'rans, bhagavad gitas or rig vedas.. the closest thing to "god" is Biology. Authors to read: Richard Dawkins, Edward Wilson.. Anything religious will put a sour taste in your mouth after you hear the beautiful reality those two will tell you.

The Creation: An Appeal to Save Life on Earth, September 2006 - by E. O Wilson should replace every religious work and prayer tomorrow. Wake up, save mother nature, yadda yadda..

I had a crisis of faith I cured with a degree in Comparative Cultures and religion. Result: They're all bullshit, the prettiest and most idyllic society imho is Islam or Judaism..

[thekiller]

(09-02-2010 07:14 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it requires religion to force good people to do bad things"

That is maybe the most ridiculous quote since "You cannot simultaniously Prepare for and Prevent war."

(09-02-2010 07:14 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

I also found it amusing that you talk about "little morality" in a forum which is technically dedicated to adultery. Makes me wonder whether you are one of those "do what I say, not what I do" Christians, like Larry Craig, Mark Sanford and John Edwards?

Your ASSuming you know me. If you've read my posts you know I'm not for relations with married women or girls with boyfriends. Not only does it reward women for very bad behavior if you get your ass beat by a husband/boyfriend you had it coming. I'm not a perfect Christian, I like sex out of wedlock, and I don't go around preaching to people.

The atheists and Progressives that run popular culture however, are more intolerant and dogmatic and fervent than sadly most Christians could ever hope to be. Popular movies, tv and music are filled with vitriloic anti-christian messages. Yet we're opressing you all somehow?

A lot of the posts on this thread are VERY intolerant and arrogant and elitist. I hear a lot of "If you believe in religion your weak minded, your so stupid, etc.". Not the case with most Christians I know, they're smart, HARDWORKING people that tend to their own business. Wish I could say the same for most Vegans and Progressives.

Don't forget also the charity and rescue works churches fund and/or do.

[Dash Global]

(08-30-2010 07:59 PM)Brandon E Wrote:  

I know many people talk about how there are so many verses in the Koran that talk about killing people for not believing in their god and all sorts of horrible things. I wonder if most people know that the Christian bible is just as bad. It talks about raping, killing, destroying cities, etc etc. I couldn't imagine why anyone would be Christian after reading the bible. Anyone who agrees with killing everyone man women and child in a whole city and raping the women for them not believe in your god, you have something wrong with you. If you're a Christian I encourage you to read the whole bible, and if you are still Christian afterwards, you're down with some fucked up shit. I could post hundreds of quotes that are ridiculous. The bible is very barbarric and outdated.

in the koran mohamed and alah are the ones that specifically tell ppl to do those horrible things if im not mistaken

what verse does jesus or god tell people to rap and kill?

[InternationPlayboy]

"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

There is just a little tiny bit of how much of a dick "god" is. By the way, did you Christians know that you worship the same god as the Jews and the Muslims? The god of Abraham. I haven't researched this in a while, and it's been hard for me to find the verse, but I've seen verses in the bible that literally say, straight from the "Words of god," to go through any city and kill every man women and child that doesn't believe in your god. If you really care to find out the verses, I'm sure I can ask a friend to give them to me, as he is really into this shit.

[InternationPlayboy]

God telling Moses to kill anyone who works on the day of the Sabbath....

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses:

'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

God telling you to kill anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity:

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Care for more? Or do you agree with these things?

[oldnemesis]

(09-03-2010 03:04 AM)thekiller Wrote:  

That is maybe the most ridiculous quote since "You cannot simultaniously Prepare for and Prevent war."

You may consider it ridiculous, but what else, besides religion, would push the people to do things like 9/11?

Quote:

Your ASSuming you know me. If you've read my posts you know I'm not for relations with married women or girls with boyfriends. Not only does it reward women for very bad behavior if you get your ass beat by a husband/boyfriend you had it coming. I'm not a perfect Christian, I like sex out of wedlock, and I don't go around preaching to people.

"Not a perfect Christian" is another word for "do what I say, not what I do", i.e. hypocrisy. Since you admitted it, then maybe it would be useful to concentrate on becoming a better Christian first, and only when you do not have known issues, start judging others? It is always funny how quick is Christian crowd about judging others, despite the claim that even your god is not going to judge anyone until the Judgment Day!

Also if I were you, I'd be careful naming yourself "not a perfect Christian" as this is a typical phrase which pedophile Catholic priests use when explaining their actions.

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The atheists and Progressives that run popular culture however, are more intolerant and dogmatic and fervent than sadly most Christians could ever hope to be.

I would like to hear the explanation here. For example, Christians pushed Sunday laws, typically requiring Sunday to be "day of worship of rest". Christians pushed "day of prayer" into the law. Christians fight abortion, up to the level of murdering doctors. Christians pushed their dislike of homosexuality into the law. But I have never heard of atheists which pushed for laws prohibiting you from going to church on Sundays or pushing for "day of atheism". Also in my life I have never seen an atheist coming to my house to tell me there is no god, but I still see various Christians several times a year.

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Popular movies, tv and music are filled with vitriloic anti-christian messages. Yet we're opressing you all somehow?

Yes, you do. A very recent example, Mormon-sponsored Proposition 8 in California, banning same-sex marriages. It was only sponsored by religious organizations.

Quote:

A lot of the posts on this thread are VERY intolerant and arrogant and elitist. I hear a lot of "If you believe in religion your weak minded, your so stupid, etc.".

I went through the thread, and did not find a single post which would say "if you believe in religion, you are so stupid". So I'm calling you out on this one. Since you claim there is a lot of such posts, please show me those posts.

[oldnemesis]

(09-03-2010 08:53 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

in the koran mohamed and alah are the ones that specifically tell ppl to do those horrible things if im not mistaken

Same as bible.

[InternationPlayboy]

(09-03-2010 07:15 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(09-03-2010 08:53 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

in the koran mohamed and alah are the ones that specifically tell ppl to do those horrible things if im not mistaken

Same as bible.

It's true, look at the last post I made. All direct quotes from the bible, all coming from "God" or Jesus. There are thousands of versus that aer just ridiculous in the bible. When I show most Christians they say it's take out of context, but I can't see telling you to kill your brother for believing in another god being taken out of context. It says what it says, I didn't add anything to it. Others say that god doesn't really want you to do those things, they are just metaphoric verses. Well, if that's the truth, how do you know what to take at face value and what not to? If that shouldn't be taken at face value, then why should John 3:16 be taken at face value? Bottom line is, the bible preaches a ton of hate, and it, and other books like it ARE the reason why a lot of bad things are going on in this world right now. We talk about the fundamentalist islamists being totally radical and out of their minds, but if you ask my evangelical Christian father, he would tell you every Muslim should be killed over in Iraq. It's the same damn thing! And yet he talks about how radical and extreme these people are, and how they want to kill all of us! He is blind to the fact that he is thinking the same way they are, just over a different proffit (Not even a diffferent god!).