Quote: (09-08-2010 01:13 AM)thekiller Wrote:
As for Atheist, secular nations, that's a major tenant of Communism. Communist countries have a great track record of human rights and tolerance, right?
here's a quote on that:Nobel prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who grew up under the atheistic communism of the Soviet Union, stated the following about the influence of atheism as a central component of communism:
"Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist policy; it is not a side effect, but the central pivot. To achieve its diabolical ends, Communism needs to control a population devoid of religious and national feeling, and this entails a destruction of faith and nationhood. Communists proclaim both of these objectives openly, and just as openly put them into practice."(Alexander Solzhenitsyn)
Solzhenitsyn, Acceptance Speech, Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion, 1983; Russkaia Mysl', no. 3465, 19 May, 1983, p. 6 ®."
As far as our current conversation goes, you just lost a lot of my respect here. Untangling this biased nonsense with common sense is beyond obvious to me. I believe it also should be to everyone else. Keep believing that atheism is evil and Christianity is the only way a country can be not "diabolical". This thinking, and brand of dishonest argument, may be precisely why there are anti-Christian sentiments in popular culture. People get sick of all of the twisting, false associations, and "good/evil" framing that many Christians constantly engage in when describing anyone but themselves. Your now associating present day atheists with being communist. WTF?
One Soviets opinion does not the truth make. His quote is rife with dishonest association ("diabolical/atheist"). It also assumes that capitalism can only work under Christianity (we could argue for pages about this - and my empirical experience, in dealing with "Christians" in business, is completely opposite to this). And Solzhenitsyn won a nobel prize for literature. He's not a politician or economist, so who gives a shit. Its funny that you quote him. I've even read one of his books "In the First Circle". It doesn't make him a special authority worth quoting. Also, the quote is from an acceptance speech on an award for religion. Of course he's going to be strongly opinionated and biased, as a religious man. This quote and your response is just too much, and illustrates precisely why non-Christians, or forward thinking Christians, get frustrated with militant "conservative" Christians.
Also, you are now turning this into a capitalism vs communism argument, where you can only be "capitalist" if you also agree to be Christian. And if you are atheist, you must be aligned with Communism. Arrgghh... Buddy, this is 8th grade bullshit arguing. Stay on subject, and argue well and honestly. I can't hang in there if you want to use the GWB brand of "If your not with us, your for terrorism/communism/whatever". Or maybe Atheists just hate our freedom? I would think that you would know that I don't respect that sort of thing by now.
Also, its a continuing (used since McCarthy) cheap neo-conservative framing that keeps anything not 100% capitalist in an "evil" light. Whether it be universal health-care, unions, a national pension, social security, or something else that is for the true benefit of the working class, anything that is socialist in nature can be re-branded as moving toward the "diabolical" evil communists, and away from Christianity, and therefore can be suppressed, or removed with enough effort by the ruling class. It works in the mass media, but anything that isn't supported by its own merit won't convince me. You can label something diabolical, evil, communist, etc...till the cows come home. None of those words have any shock value to me. Like I said, I'm a pragmatist, and I'm not a class trader.
Let me tell you something else. Other than a sever population reduction in the near future, the only thing that keeps ANYONE at the level of middle class in this country are the little "socialist" regulations such as unionization, minimum wage, labor rights laws, and other such measures that protect it directly. Without those measures, it disappears, especially with such a huge population. The ownership class (top 3% or so) is attempting to undermine the middle class, and therefore have to pay less in taxes and wages, and they are doing so rather successfully. Do you think you will ever have over one million dollars in the bank at any point in time in your life?? Maybe. But statistically, probably not. Most people never will. Therefore, its to most peoples best interest to keep the population low and protect the mechanisms that ensure their middle class existence.
Let me ask you something: Would you rather live poor for most of your life, and die secure in knowing that you supported the ability of the wealthy to make and keep as much money as possible? Or would you rather live a more comfortable existence, knowing that it was made possible because of the laws that protect the labor class from being exploited, but which similarly limited the maximum amount of money that a person could make at the very top?
Its been proven that "trickle down economics" doesn't work. The wealthy keep their money, and leverage it for more power. If you are a person who truly can provide value to society, then it doesn't matter if the wealthy have more money to create more jobs (which doesn't happen in a ratio that can be considered worthwhile). You should be able to create your own value and go into business for yourself. You should be able to make a middle class living on your own.
Giving the rich money to create jobs is just like saying "I'm too low intelligence to create my own value, so I'm going to count on someone richer and smarter to create it and tell me what to do." We don't need more employees. We have enough low skilled workers. As long as we keep creating low skilled jobs, the immigrants will keep coming and taking them, or at least filling in the holes and keeping wages low. More low skilled work does close to nothing for average American society. More people are being born to do that every day. its impossible to keep up with. We need more innovators, and they need enough money to go into business. They can't do that if there is no middle class, because its power is completely eroded. Forcing people into business is what keeps this country going. Not creating jobs through trickle down economics. When people are forced to go into business, and they have enough money to do so because of their middle class status, it keeps the lower class population at a minimum and the middle class healthy. It keeps lower class broke people from having too many babies. It keeps wages up. It keeps the quality of life high. That doesn't mean that we let these innovators an open economic check to make as much money as they can possibly make. They live in society, which is by definition socialist, and they aren't individuals hunting on an African plain. Limiting income at the top, to support middle class rights and quality of life, keeps the system going. That doesn't mean we go communist. Its a balance. Also, this system can only be made healthy again of population growth becomes more limited. It will be impossible as long as the floodgates are left open.
Quote: (09-08-2010 01:13 AM)thekiller Wrote:
As for popular culture being anti-Christian, there are books and blogs on the subject Hydro and Nemesis. But just open your eyes and read almost any news, or watch any TV show. Christians are portrayed as ignorant, bigoted, intolerant. The movie The Mist is kind of typical, the Christian lady is an extreme problem that the heroes literally have to kill. Pick up any issue of the New York Times. Christian-neutral I have no problem with, but hostile is too common these days.
Alright, but there are also books and blogs on the world coming to an end in 2012, on the lizard people, and at least one on each modern president as to why he was the best gift to mankind in history. Doesn't make it true. People can find evidence, and prove, whatever they want to prove. "What the believer believes, the prover proves".
But lets, for a second, say that there is anti-Christian bias in the media. Its the whackos who choose to bother the shit out of the rest of us endlessly, that are the targets. Of course people are pissed. Some Christians are batshit fucking crazy, and want to turn the whole world black and white, and force thier values down our throats. if they would just shut the fuck up, and get out of our bedrooms and our lives, and mind their own business, then no one would care. the bias would disappear. I have never, ever, ever tried to convince someone of my agnostic values, to recruit them, or to change the way the country is run to align with my spiritual beliefs. If a Christian thinks that Christians can do this, and not have people want to express their frustration and dissatisfaction, then that person lives in a huge narcissistic/egotistical bubble where no ones feelings but his own matters. Christians can't be so continuously obnoxious to everyone else and not expect backlash in the media. Give me a fucking break.
Also, there is a difference between normal Christians and the crazy ones. My protestant grandparents would never, ever assume to try to influence the lives of others, control their rights, or bother them with their beliefs. There is a nasty brand of Christianity in this country, which has gone way beyond the traditional protestantism that settled this country, which pisses people off because they won't leave us alone. Get your religion out of politics, get it out of legislation, and live your lives. We will live ours. If Christians can't handle that, then they can't expect people to keep quiet as they seem absolutely crazy to the rest of us.
Quote: (09-08-2010 01:13 AM)thekiller Wrote:
Hydro-sounds like we have some commonalities politically. I will disagree though that government spending will get us out of this mess. A fair number of economists argue that the Great Depression was LENGTHENED due to the spending. But in any case, Government is not efficient at spending wisely. Government is heavy with layers of managers and employees that need to get paid and pass the paperwork along.
Just look where Obama spends most of his money, to the Unions. Most government employees and all teachers are unionized. Obama bailed out GM and gave it to the Auto Workers Union, the very Union that made GM uncompetitive. All the billions spent on Unions and they make up only 12.5% of the workforce. Meanwhile Obama and his Liberal House and Senate create Healthcare Reform, and the Dodd-Frank regulatory mess that are guaranteed to hamper small and mid-sized businesses that actually DRIVE the economy.
The 9.7 Trillion dollars of the stimulus was enough to pay off 90% of the nation's home mortgages. Much as I'm for personal responsibility, even giving that money to everyone to pay of their mortgage would have been better than what they've been doing with it. Could you imagine how our economy would be booming right now if 90% of homeowners had no more payments? Sad thing is, Democrats for sure and Republicans most likely either would never allow such a thing, as Americans would need government less in that case. It's all about Power.
An incredibly complicated myriad of interrelated topics. You aren't an expert enough to be able to do a competent job of analysis, and neither am I.
However, your opinions on healthcare reform make me think that you have been convinced to vote against your own class. So, no unions, no healthcare, but porous borders and a system that encourages a continuing population explosion. This will assure that your family, along with everyone else in our class, will have a much lower quality of life in 1-2 generations. Its the basic economics of class structure. Look at the rest of the world for sustainable examples of societies with decent qualities of life. They don't resemble the direction we have been going in the least bit.
Were you complaining when GWB was in office, or was everything he did somehow justifiable and okay? I'm amazed what neo-conservatives can come up with to complain about, in such a short time, after the absolute nightmare that was GWBs presidency. I won't argue politics anymore, because I know it won't go anywhere, and so I request that we keep the politics out of any further possible conversation.
