[Samseau]

(07-21-2012 04:23 PM)michelin Wrote:  

It always amazes me that people think easy access to guns has nothing to do with the FREQUENCY and OUTCOME of murders. Think about it this way: if you can only find fast food around, odds are high you will get more fat people. If only candy in the stores instead of veggies, more teeth problems. If guns are on sale on the internet, an absurd shooting is what you are MORE LIKELY to get.

It's all explainable with the little rule: more availability, more crazy shootings.

period.

Before the advent of guns, there were plenty of mass killings, wars, and regular homicide.

Guns have nothing to do with this.

[Kona]

(07-21-2012 02:18 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

When the United States was born, there was no police. Citizens would arrest criminals themselves and bring them to the local jail or courthouse and hold trial.

There was never any mass shootings of the sort back then.

Sure there were police. The US Marshals have been around since 1790 or something. There's Sheriff's Departments in New york that go back to the 1600's I think.

And there weren't mass killings because people only had muskets. You could kill a whole lot of people, you just had to do it one at a time and be sneaky.

Aloha!

[michelin]

Quote:

Before the advent of guns, there were plenty of mass killings, wars, and regular homicide

Times have changed, my friend. It suffices to compare the situation TODAY in the US with Europe or Asia. Exceptions apart (Breivik, Dunblane), and while you can't avoid events like this for 100%, stricter gun laws effectively do reduce the # of mass shootings. It's a matter of checking statistics to check the fact.

[Beyond Borders]

Haven't picked through the thread yet, but this case stinks like MK-Ultra to me.

[durangotang]

(07-21-2012 04:23 PM)michelin Wrote:  

It always amazes me that people think easy access to guns has nothing to do with the FREQUENCY and OUTCOME of murders. Think about it this way: if you can only find fast food around, odds are high you will get more fat people. If only candy in the stores instead of veggies, more teeth problems. If guns are on sale on the internet, an absurd shooting is what you are MORE LIKELY to get.

It's all explainable with the little rule: more availability, more crazy shootings.

period.

Ask the Jews how gun control worked out for them in Germany. Or the Russians. Or the Chinese. Or countless other examples in the 20th century. The bottom line is that gun control is responsible for probably 100 times the deaths than comparative civilian shootings. Let's compare those stats.

[Aliblahba]

(07-21-2012 04:31 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(07-21-2012 02:18 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

When the United States was born, there was no police. Citizens would arrest criminals themselves and bring them to the local jail or courthouse and hold trial.

There was never any mass shootings of the sort back then.

Sure there were police. The US Marshals have been around since 1790 or something. There's Sheriff's Departments in New york that go back to the 1600's I think.

And there weren't mass killings because people only had muskets. You could kill a whole lot of people, you just had to do it one at a time and be sneaky.

Aloha!

http://listverse.com/2007/08/22/top-10-e...l-killers/

[michelin]

"Americans seem incapable of honest debate among ourselves about what our permissive gun laws do - and do not - have to do with the chronic bloodletting" (Rod Dreher - senior editor at The American Conservative)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18877454

[Zeus]

http://mashable.com/2012/07/21/james-hol...endfinder/

His adult friend finder profile

A very lonely man

[The_CEO]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/07/...count.html

[Samseau]

(07-21-2012 04:42 PM)michelin Wrote:  

Quote:

Before the advent of guns, there were plenty of mass killings, wars, and regular homicide

Times have changed, my friend. It suffices to compare the situation TODAY in the US with Europe or Asia. Exceptions apart (Breivik, Dunblane), and while you can't avoid events like this for 100%, stricter gun laws effectively do reduce the # of mass shootings. It's a matter of checking statistics to check the fact.

Mass killings are the least of problems with guns. Far bigger are innocent civilians who are robbed, mugged, and simply terrorized by local thugs that obtain the weapons illegally.

By the way - to those who think that guns can't stop criminals:

[Samseau]

And when you do ban guns, the mass killings don't come from civilians, but from the government itself. The worst atrocities are always done legally.

[assman]

Turns out Aurora bans concealed carry and possessing loaded guns in your vehicle. And the theater was signed "no firearms". Too bad the only people who gave a fuck about the rules were the concealed carry holders who might have been able to make a difference. This is *exactly* the effect of gun control - makes citizens into helpless sheep ripe for the slaughter by those who either don't care about the law or make the law. Do you think this psychopath looked at these rules and was worried about the extra charges that would be tacked on to all the murder charges he was about to rack up?

Bloomberg is calling for gun control. Think Blooomie goes anywhere without his armed guards? Think Bloomie wants that gun control to apply to his security staff? Obama talking about how his daughters go to movie theaters. Sure, with the Secret Service. So these people get to keep their guns, but want you to give up yours? And people fall for this?

http://www.coloradoceasefire.org/munilaws.htm

By the way, if anyone is starting to realize the futility of gun control, that the police will never get there in time to save you, and is interested in arming themselves, either at home or concealed carry, there are a number of us at RVF that can answer your questions and point you in the right direction.

[assman]

(07-21-2012 04:23 PM)michelin Wrote:  

It always amazes me that people think easy access to guns has nothing to do with the FREQUENCY and OUTCOME of murders. Think about it this way: if you can only find fast food around, odds are high you will get more fat people. If only candy in the stores instead of veggies, more teeth problems. If guns are on sale on the internet, an absurd shooting is what you are MORE LIKELY to get.

It's all explainable with the little rule: more availability, more crazy shootings

Access to cars has a lot to do with DUIs and other vehicular homicides. Should we ban cars too?

[Veloce]

(07-21-2012 08:19 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-21-2012 04:42 PM)michelin Wrote:  

Quote:

Before the advent of guns, there were plenty of mass killings, wars, and regular homicide

Times have changed, my friend. It suffices to compare the situation TODAY in the US with Europe or Asia. Exceptions apart (Breivik, Dunblane), and while you can't avoid events like this for 100%, stricter gun laws effectively do reduce the # of mass shootings. It's a matter of checking statistics to check the fact.

Mass killings are the least of problems with guns. Far bigger are innocent civilians who are robbed, mugged, and simply terrorized by local thugs that obtain the weapons illegally.

By the way - to those who think that guns can't stop criminals:

The argument isn't whether or not guns can stop criminals. Certainly it happens. But you can't really argue with statistics. Most gun related deaths aren't hero scenarios depicted in this video.

[RawGod]

While ordinary people are armed in the US, there will NEVER be tyranny like in Russia, Germany, China etc in the last century. Even the combined will of the political leadership and the armed forces will not mess with millions of freedom-minded individuals armed to the teeth. That kind of insurance policy is priceless.

[assman]

(07-21-2012 08:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

And when you do ban guns, the mass killings don't come from civilians, but from the government itself. The worst atrocities are always done legally.

Samseau, for the big government lovers among us, you might as well be speaking in Klingon. Those people are far from ready to accept that their beloved government would ever turn its guns on them, despite the fact that this has happened repeatedly around the world and is always preceded by gun control.

[assman]

(07-21-2012 09:04 PM)RawGod Wrote:  

While ordinary people are armed in the US, there will NEVER be tyranny like in Russia, Germany, China etc in the last century. Even the combined will of the political leadership and the armed forces will not mess with millions of freedom-minded individuals armed to the teeth. That kind of insurance policy is priceless.

Amen, brother.

[The_CEO]

As far as I can tell, no one in the thread spoke of a "ban" of anything

[Architekt]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the dude is, perhaps, crazier than initially thought. Guy thinks he's actually acting in a movie.

[Veloce]

I feel like this thread went a whole other direction, but just for the sake of debate, here are my thoughts on the last few posts:

These days it's hard to prepare for the future based on a historical precedent. Whether it's natural disasters, financial disasters, or warfare. In many cases of the past, the population simple didn't see it coming. If you guys are going to make the point that our government won't fuck with us because we're a population of well-armed, freedom-loving individuals, I'm sorry to say but that's a bit of an obsolete and misplaced paranoia.

In this day and age, the man isn't going to keep you down by showing up to your door with a gun. In fact, the man is already keeping you down, and keeping the entire well-armed middle and lower class down, and are there any violent uprisings? No. We haven't fought against being lied to and robbed by our financial institutions. We haven't fought against their hold on the government or our elected leaders bailing them out.

When you talk about "What's happened in Germany, China, or Russia." What exactly do you mean? There's a lot of history there. Genocide? Political and Economic Turmoil? WW2? Since Russia was mentioned here, and how apparently history will never repeat itself and what happened there simply COULDN'T happen here, I'm going to quote Lenin:

"How is our government’s senseless policy in China to be explained? Who benefits by
it? The benefit goes to a handful of capitalist magnates who carry on trade with China, to a handful of factory owners who manufacture goods for the Asian market, to a handful of con tractors who are now piling up huge profits on urgent war orders (factories producing war equipment, supplies for the troops, etc., are now operating at full capacity and are engaging hundreds of new workers). This policy is of benefit to a handful of nobles who occupy high posts in the civil and military services. They need adventurous policies, for these provide them with opportunities for promotion, for making a career and gaining fame by their “exploits.” In the interests of this handful of capitalists and bureaucratic scoundrels, our government unhesitatingly sacrifices the interests of the entire people. And in this case, as always, the autocratic tsarist government has proved itself to be a government of irresponsible bureaucrats servilely cringing before the capitalist magnates and nobles."

Different scenario, identical government policy. Happened there and it's happening here. Your guns mean nothing.

[Vicious]

You know a thread has run its course when Gun Control is held as responsible for the Holocaust.

[OGNorCal707]

Damn I feel really bad for the victims of the attack, which includes a 6 year old girl, and a guy out "celebrating" his 27th birthday with friends. Apparently one of the victims was a "white knight" that jumped in front of his girlfriend and got shot to death to save her, while it was a brave and selfless act, there is no way in hell I would do that for a girlfriend, and I really doubt a woman would ever do that for a man.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Polic...724591.php

[OGNorCal707]

Assman, Samseau, and Durangotang should form a militia to overthrow the government once Obama is re-elected.

[Samseau]

Rumors are circulating around the internet... apparently it is suspected that James Holmes was an OWS protestor, part of the left-wing extremist group called "Black Bloc".

Just google "Black Block James Holmes" to see the rumors:

http://www.freedumbnation_JamesEHolmesManchurian.jpg]" class="mycode_img img-responsive" />

[OGNorCal707]

Update: "Shooting survivor: Boyfriend 'took a bullet for me'"

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/0...or-me?lite