@speakeasy

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VincentVinturi Wrote:
What I'm defending is the right to do as you please so long as it doesn't interfere with others' ability to do as they please.

I'd say that definitely interfered with the black guy's ability to do as he pleased, i.e. teach English.

By this logic, if you were to demand 10 million dollars from Donald Trump, and the Donald told you to take a hike, you could argue that he's interfering with your ability to do as you please by not giving you 10 million dollars.

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Now suppose you wanted to teach in an American school and a liberal school board rejected you on the grounds that female teachers are supposedly more trustworthy around children. Would you say that's their right and it's defensible, or would you be firing off an article on RoKs about anti-male discrimination?

If we're talking about private schools, it certainly is their right to hire whomever they want. If we're talking about public schools, they have no business being in existence.

But to answer your question at face value, I'd dust myself off and go find work somewhere else. AND I'd write an ROK article.

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Understand that you are talking to a black American who has 400 years of discriminatory history behind me. Don't be surprised if I cannot relate to your libertarian philosophy on these matters.

Ok. Black libertarians exist.

They have the same 400 years of discriminatory history behind them.

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If your ancestors faced 4 centuries of racial discrimination and were hurt by it, your perspective might be different. I'm by no means saying businesses should be forced to hire people using quotas. But I also don't think it should be legal to actively bar people from employment based on their ancestry. To me that would be taking a major leap back in time to an era I'd love to forget about.

So you're saying there should not be quotas but it should be illegal to bar somebody from employment on the basis of race.

How would you enforce such a law?

How is currently being enforced?

And how's that working out?

The day that I'm forced to put somebody on my payroll against my will, I'll burn my business to the ground and throw my greenbox in the ocean.

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You're not telling me anything here that I don't know. But we do have a constitution and supreme court and we've decided as a society that barring people from employment on account of race is unjust.

Who is 'we'? I didn't get to decide anything.

I never decided that 'yes, I'd love to pay the completely unconstitutional personal income tax so that my government can treat me like a criminal in my own country and give my hard earned bucks to other people.'

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You're violating people's ability to make a living and support themselves.

I am?

Look, business owners aren't obliged to hire anybody they don't want.

If somebody doesn't want to hire me because he doesn't like my big Jew nose, or my hippie hairdo, or the sound of my voice, and he tells me so, what am I supposed to do, run to Uncle Sam to force the business owner to give me a job, or money in the form of damages?

If somebody doesn't want to give me a job because I'm a Jew, I'm not going to go crying to the nanny state to hold a gun to his head and give me his shit because he's a racist bastard.

No, I'll go find somebody who does want to hire me.

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Preserving one's culture is an outcome of xenophobia. It's ultimately a dislike of people that aren't like you.

So who says you have to like people who aren't like you?

It's not bad enough that I have to give a pregnant chick a job and then pay her maternity leave, I have to like the bitch too?

Also, American culture is polluting the rest of the world.

Asians instinctively sense their values are under a furtive attack in the form of American popculture infiltrating their society, hence their xenophobia.

You give it another 50 years, and they'll be no feminine women left anywhere in the world thanks to American culture.

And Brazil, which you've mentioned twice, is by all accounts becoming another feminist cesspool slowly but surely.

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That only works when everyone yields equal power. If everything is fundamentally unequal, the weaker get fucked as the powerless have no ability to discriminate against the powerful.

Good point.

But you don't right an injustice by adopting it as a policy and instituting it system wide in reverse.

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Injuring my health (by eating a box of cookies) would only hurt me. Barring someone from employment due to their race hurts someone else. So I don't understand your point.

Nobody's entitled to a job on the basis that not[u] giving them a job - for any reason - would be harmful to them.

If I don't want to employ Tony, whatsoever my reasons may be, is it my problem that Tony has bills to pay?

Should I give him a job just because [u]not giving it to him will put him in a difficult situation?

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Rights are social constructs granted by law. Logic and morality exist independently of law. Often they intersect with rights, sometimes they do not. I have the right to say all types of fucked up shit about someone in public and it's a protected right under the constitution. That however doesn't make it morally or logically justifiable to behave in such a way. Let's not talk about rights and morality like they are one and the same.

Well said.

But consider that rights exist exactly for the purpose of defending people in situations that others would deem immoral.

You have the freedom of speech in the USA (uh, sorta), so you can go around and say what you want and you can't be thrown in jail for it.

This protects you from the lynch mob mentality that would label you a heretic and publicly orchestrate an experiment to see whether or not you can breathe underwater, just because you said something that enough people don't agree with.

So while it may be illogical and immoral to not hire somebody on the basis of race, religion, sexuality, etc., you have the *right* to run your business as you see fit.

Business people have a problem with being told what to do.

That's why they start businesses.

You want to destroy business completely?

Make businesspeople hire folks they don't want to hire.

Korean rules are Korean rules, it's a foreign country. Take it or leave it.
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Just imagine if the American Indian took that stance back in 1492

I also forgot to mention the fact that a large US military base is on their land. They cannot nor do not want the US to leave, for obvious reasons, but that is mostly the older folks. The younger Koreans do not care for American presence as much. So combine all these factors and it is easy to see the issues with inferiority and insecurity. As far as Feminism in Asia is concerned, I think Korea has it the worst. Worse than Japan and much much worse than China. They only have a small number of key industries. Samsung, Hyundai , etc. The men are not happy about competing with their women for jobs they feel that they should have just because they are men. They have clashed with women over stuff like this. They clash with gender roles at home. Some of their famous women are using Christianity as an excuse to shirk traditional duties even! They were using the West as an example and somehow blended the two.

When you really look at what they are dealing with, you can easily see why they are pissed off all the time. Japanese men are too docile for reasons we all know. Korean men are closer to Chinese men in terms of behavior, culture, and attitude. If they are insulted or slighted, they are ready to fight. I almost got into a fight/situation in China 2 times, not with Chinese people, but Korean tourists. They are soo rude and ornery, Chinese people cannot stand them in China. They call them racial slurs (bang zi, which means club or stick people), spit at them, or jump them in mobs if they find any of them starting shit. 3 Korean men beat up a Chinese woman behind a register in a McDonalds because she said something about their drunken like behavior.

Korean women are mostly overrated anyhow. Sexy yes but they have what is called the "han" which is an eternal negative pessimistic outlook conditioned into them from their Korean upbringing. They are mostly an argumentative people, vain, and will put even some hardcore Chinese women to shame when it comes to materialism.

It's not just random Koreans that will cockblock you but their relatives and friends will get real butt hurt after awhile even if they were initially accepting of your non Korean status when dating their female relative.

With all that plastic surgery and shit a lot of them will look like washed up Vegas singers by the time they hit the wall too.

I have dated Korean girls before (in America) and you really aren't missing much.

Quote: (11-19-2014 09:38 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

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Oh yeah and Blick, you come off racist as hell. You need to drop all this black people behavior crap. You can save that shit for a domestic US issue debate. International travel almost never involves the ghetto dark hooligan monkeys you no doubt obsess over.

In a discussion on why Asians are racist towards a people they have no historical or cultural connection with, are behavior and perception not relevant topics? Or is non-PC speech only permitted when women are the subject matter?

Anyone who has traveled or lived abroad knows that black culture in America is vastly different than black culture outside of America. Understanding why generalizations are made in the first place is crucial to solving any social issue. I made it abundantly clear in several of my posts that discrimination is a bad thing, but that this needs to be viewed within a full cultural context.

No it is not relevant. The reason why is because people who have been to these places already and taught English and/or lived there, like Suits, Dreambig, Pheonix, etc. have already explained to you that they do not like black English teachers due to the demand from the parents. The parents are basing it off perception of whites make up the West. NOT because black people have behavior issues. They know nothing about that. It's a visual thing. It's an image thing. They do this to save face. They would tell a dark skinned Greek man from Greece no to a teaching position as well. I have read reports from Paki, Indian, and other Asians from the UK getting denied teaching jobs in China and Korea. They do not deny them because of a bad reputation.

This is how we know you do not know fucking anything about Asia. You have no idea that most of these people have never ever seen a foreigner in their communities before in the flesh. Much of China is the same way. I was the first foreigner, ever that many have ever seen before. So when they tell these parents that pay ALOT of their income for the best schooling they can afford, that they have an English instructor from America or the UK, the expectation is that he is blonde and blue eyed and looks the part. When in reality, he is a high school diploma carrying guy with nothing special about him.

That's it! That's all! No grand conspiracy here! No socio-economic-racial behavior issue to discuss! It's all about image. They are ethnocentric. They don't care about blacks in the US or Africa. All they know is that a black man did not discover America or the England, so they must get a white guy to teach their kids this English stuff so that they can get a high enough score to get into a good college. That is all.

Kai, that's exactly my point. It is ALL about image and nothing more. But what factors contribute toward that image? Why do they think the way they do when they have little to no exposure to other races? If it was just about being white and from the US or UK, you wouldn't see white Irish girls ALSO being turned down based on antiquated stereotypes.

It's like a disclaimer is required at the beginning and end of any statement or you're accused of being a KKK member.

That black teacher should've known about Quincy Blacks' Shadow

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(Quincy, whom most expats are know about at this point) who was fleeing the country re-ignited conversation about a topic that started four years ago. The situation in South Korea for people of color is not good at best and when situations like this occur it has serious effects on the entire expat policy, ranging from hiring methods to screening.
Four years after fleeing the country, a 29-year-old American man was extradited back to South Korea. The reason for his initial departure was a result of the fact that he had filmed himself having sex with various Korean women, and subsequently uploaded the videos to a foreign porn site. The now notorious “Quincy Black” was an English teacher at an International Communication Center in Daejeon, where he taught pre-school and elementary students 20 hours a week. His relationship with his colleagues and students was good, and nobody suspected anything unusual about his personal life at all.
In October 2010 however, Quincy’s work received a report about his activities. The contents stated that Quincy, using the nickname “Quincy Black” had been filming adult videos with Korean women and edited versions of them had being circulated on the internet. After the close scrutiny and questioning by the center had concluded, they received a confession that at the end of August 2010, he had shot two adult videos with Korean women and uploaded them to the internet. His contract was then terminated, his offense was reported throughout the media and in October 2010, he fled to Armenia via China.

I don't think it was the actual sex that was illegal (in Korea) but producing child pornography definitely is. I'm not sure it's what he originally intended to do but he went through with it so he's reaping what he sowed.

Quote: (11-19-2014 10:03 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

Kai, that's exactly my point. It is ALL about image and nothing more. But what factors contribute toward that image? Why do they think the way they do when they have little to no exposure to other races? If it was just about being white and from the US or UK, you wouldn't see white Irish girls ALSO being turned down based on antiquated stereotypes.

It's like a disclaimer is required at the beginning and end of any statement or you're accused of being a KKK member.

White girls being treated badly while teaching English in Korea is nothing new either. Korean men are sexist as hell. I already told you that they have a problem with women taking jobs from men before. An Irish one being called a drunk, is fucked up for sure, but that still does not prove that they think all black people have a behavior problem. I have said before that blonde haired and blue eyed MEN are the preference in Asia for teaching jobs. I know a white guy that has brown hair and was rejected for a job in China because he was not blonde or tall enough to wear a suit and sit with Chinese businessmen at a dinner table! This is just White God Factor business style. School is not free in Asia. It's a business. Not a right, like it is in the West.

Not only are you trying to prove something that is not exactly easy to prove in the West, but you are trying to transfix that to Asians in the East, as if that is a fact. Only your outlook can conclude your own premise. That is disingenuous. Also you claimed that the majority of Americans that acted poorly abroad, where minorities, to substantiate your position. You have no proof of that and it's fucking absurd. Some 30 something % of Americans have passports. You mean to tell me that a group of people that make up 12% of the total population of this country, are anywhere near a majority of 30 something percent that actually have a passport? Get out of here with that junk logic!

Until you actually visit Asia and talk to some parents there about it, I don't care what you say. You are not fooling anyone here with that garbage. Don't bother replying back either because you are being intellectually dishonest and bankrupt. For a otherwise smart poster, I personally feel like you are the biggest disappointment of all RVF posters. Thread after thread you do the same racial junk views. Your rep is way lower than it should be considering your knowledge in other areas. Such a pity and a shame that is.

I feel for this guy, but he didn't do his homework. The second I leave America, I put all of my cultural stereotypes away and become a minority in a new country.

When in Rome and if the Romans don't like black people then maybe going there wasn't such a good idea. Unless he wanted to fight the good fight, do it otherwise he should go teach English in a place that will be kinder to him. The world is unfair unequally to everyone, get used to it.

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Quote: (11-19-2014 06:05 AM)CimbomluBkk Wrote:  

This has to do with inferiority complex, I'm not a racist but Its a fact that asians feel inferior compared to whites. So when they find someone that is below them in the race department, they take it as an opportunity to unleash their hate. For example Asian women in the west don't really like dating asian guys, they prefer a white guy over an asian any day. Feel sorry for asian men. They are so obsessed with white skin, there are people over there who use umbrellas in sunny weather. After 9/11 muslims went down 2-3 places in the race ladder and as a result arabs and turks were affected by this. I had instances when girls approached me at bars in Asia, only to immediately lose their interest after I told them I'm Turkish. If I said I was Greek or Italian, everything would of been different, they'd probably be in my hotel room within 20-30 mins.

The amount of hate Muslims and Blacks get around the world is sad.

As turkish, do you class yourself as European or Arabic, or just Turkish ?

Genuine question, as a lot of Turks I see, could easily pass off as being from South Europe, even Eastern European in some cases, if you are referring to the Balkan states.


As for the article, this is nothing. Arabs hate black people, in fact a few South American girls I met in London where talking shit about them too, saying how they only want to date white guys or other South Americans. Seems like racism is not just a "European invention" (shock/horror)

Really?

Europeans originally learnt slaving techniques from the Arabs, if you read the writes of sheiks and Arabic philosophers dating back to the middle ages, it was fall of bad descriptions and portrayals of black africans.

I remember when living in the Middle East, I showed a picture of a black girl I was living with. This was a former beauty contestant, good looking young black 20 year old. The men I was showing the picture to started hollering and calling her a donkey, while making animal noises. I don't subscribe to political correctness but that was just straight messed up.

If you go back farther it was Black Africans whom enslaved Arabs.

Arabs do have a lot of haterade for Black Africans but it comes from very UN-PC stuff that is scribbed in thier books. The Arab diaspora in much of Africa is city and port based, the we people all were labourers way back in the days and many were slaves also. In Egypt the Arabs have no roots outside of the three major centers. You go to the rural historic villiges and its balcks whom have the ties to those places due to the fact they have had a longer time present in that region then the imported Arabs. The Arab peninsula was larger nomadic and empty for its history. The small pockets of people in places such as Yemen were not across the board Arab as for many generations Africans inhabited those parts.

Arabs like to hate because back in those days they brought nothing to the table other than religion. They brought region over but were used as slaves for generations out of the idea they were uncivilized.

You fast forward to modern times and minus the discovery of oil many of these Arab nations will still be dirt poor and at the bottom of economic lists like they were prior. Look at any Arab nation prior to oil and almost all were among the poorest. Today they waste thier money paying westerners to do stuff for them and build thier economies which are nothing more than Disney resorts.

It's all cool though. I don't share the same hate, nor do any of my Islamic African friends. It's just something we laugh at because its just childish rivalry and hating. The dudes can hate on me all they want as a African man but I will still fuck thier women. Arab girls have never been that hard to swoop as long as they are not Islamic. My laundry list of girls I have done shit with looks like the member list of the Arab League.

Quote: (11-19-2014 04:03 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

But knowing what I know about Asians, I don't think they mean it in a mean-spirited way like "we hate black people, so fuck off."

That's probably true with SEA countries, but knowing what I've witnessed directly, and what they've freely told me, Koreans do indeed dislike black people. The word for black person is "huh-gin-saram" which translates literally into "dirt people."

Even as a white guy I've been told no admittance at certain clubs, or seated at shitty sections of restaurants, etc. Koreans think all their problems are caused by foreigners and are not shy about their xenophobia at all. I'm not at all surprised there's been no change over the years. Even when it comes to rape (and I mean actual rape, not yes means yes crap), the only time the Koreans care is if it was a foreign male perpetrating the crime.

Quote: (11-19-2014 10:03 AM)Blick Mang Wrote:  

Kai, that's exactly my point. It is ALL about image and nothing more. But what factors contribute toward that image? Why do they think the way they do when they have little to no exposure to other races? If it was just about being white and from the US or UK, you wouldn't see white Irish girls ALSO being turned down based on antiquated stereotypes.

I think the Irish girl was the first white person to ever be turned down for an English teaching job haha! Seriously though I know a white guy with a hardcore Boston accent who somehow managed to teach English in China, I think he was flipping pizzas before that. Defibetky a strange phenomenon how some Asians equate America and speaking English with only whites

Speakeasy you said it yourself you are not being objective about this. Bringing the bitter feelings of ''400 years of slavery'' into this discussion about a job recruitment is not doing any good. Very good points have been made in this thread about the sense of right&wrong being subjective and cultural differences. Korea is not responsible for slavery, so they don't have to bend over and make anti-discrimination and positive discrimination laws. They just don't want to be taught English by black teachers. You can't force them to obey Western standards. And Korea pulling this shit doesn't mean blacks are still discriminated in today's world. It's a complex situation. Black men are favored more by some girls than whites in many European and Western countries whereas the vice-versa case only exists in Asia. I have female Turkish friends (who are known for their conservativeness) whose biggest fantasy is to fuck a black dude, and Turkish people are overly-friendly to blacks, but on the other hand black people have hard time finding a place to rent in Turkey since they live in groups and can't pay their rent on time. This racism thing to me is about how you look at the glass. Passive racism (as I'd like to call it) is a reality of this world. Arabs face certain prejudice in U.S, Turks in Germany, Kurds in Turkey, Jews in Islamic states, Russians in Ukraine, Indians basically everywhere, the list goes on. Just take Korea out of your countries-to-visit list and move on.

http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2011/09/...f.html?m=1

"East Asia has been an outlier in the developed world. Like Western Europe and North America, it is integrated into the global economy and enjoys a high standard of living. This is particularly so for the original five ‘tigers’: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

Yet East Asia has bucked the trend toward loss of nationhood. Its governments still see their role as one of perpetuating a specific ethnic identity and cultural tradition. This is in contrast to the view, dominant in the West, that countries should simply be administrative units and should interfere as little as possible in the free flow of capital, goods, and labor.

Recently, this outlier has lost one member. South Korea is falling into line with the globalist paradigm and has opened its borders to increasingly higher rates of immigration"

Quote: (11-19-2014 12:31 PM)kosko Wrote:  

If you go back farther it was Black Africans whom enslaved Arabs.

Can you provide a link for this and time period?

Reading this thread makes me think i'm stupid for planning to teach english in korea early next year. However the money and free apartment etc. make it an attractive situation for me as i'm a recent graduate who's never taught a day in his life.

Quote: (11-19-2014 03:36 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

Speakeasy you said it yourself you are not being objective about this. Bringing the bitter feelings of ''400 years of slavery'' into this discussion about a job recruitment is not doing any good. Very good points have been made in this thread about the sense of right&wrong being subjective and cultural differences. Korea is not responsible for slavery, so they don't have to bend over and make anti-discrimination and positive discrimination laws.

You misread my words. I didn't say slavery. I said discrimination: "400 years of discriminatory history behind me"

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They just don't want to be taught English by black teachers. You can't force them to obey Western standards.

Of course you can't force them. But you shine a light on it and let the world know what kind of xenophobic society Korea is. In 1980 someone could've said, "South Africans just don't want blacks to vote, you can't force them to obey Western standards."

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And Korea pulling this shit doesn't mean blacks are still discriminated in today's world. It's a complex situation. Black men are favored more by some girls than whites in many European and Western countries whereas the vice-versa case only exists in Asia. I have female Turkish friends (who are known for their conservativeness) whose biggest fantasy is to fuck a black dude, and Turkish people are overly-friendly to blacks, but on the other hand black people have hard time finding a place to rent in Turkey since they live in groups and can't pay their rent on time.

Well introduce me to these girls when I visit Turkey.

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This racism thing to me is about how you look at the glass. Passive racism (as I'd like to call it) is a reality of this world. Arabs face certain prejudice in U.S, Turks in Germany, Kurds in Turkey, Jews in Islamic states, Russians in Ukraine, Indians basically everywhere, the list goes on. Just take Korea out of your countries-to-visit list and move on.

And I've already done that long ago. But I throw my support behind this brotha that is out there exposing the truth. Some Koreans will listen to what he has to say and understand that their behavior toward black English teachers is making no sense. Perhaps they are simply ignorant and don't realize that blacks have been in N. America as long as whites have and that we are native speakers of English. If that's the case, then information is what they need.

Also, many blacks already do know what they are getting into teaching in Asia but they take a chance any way because these are some of the few English teaching jobs that actually pay decent money.

If it makes you black guys feel any better, a Korean American (regardless of how many generations in America) would be similarly rejected too for the English teaching gig. Asian parents generally want a white face to teach their kids English.

This instance is a different kind of discrimination than the "we don't like blacks because they're stupid & poor" racism.

One guy did fight back against Korean racism:

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South Koreans Struggle With Race

By CHOE SANG-HUN

SEOUL — On the evening of July 10, Bonogit Hussain, a 29-year-old Indian man, and Hahn Ji-seon, a female Korean friend, were riding a bus near Seoul when a man in the back began hurling racial and sexist slurs at them.

The situation would be a familiar one to many Korean women who have dated or even — as in Ms. Hahn’s case — simply traveled in the company of a foreign man.

What was different this time, however, was that, once it was reported in the South Korean media, prosecutors sprang into action, charging the man they have identified only as a 31-year-old Mr. Park with contempt, the first time such charges had been applied to an alleged racist offense. Spurred by the case, which is pending in court, rival political parties in Parliament have begun drafting legislation that for the first time would provide a detailed definition of discrimination by race and ethnicity and impose criminal penalties.

For Mr. Hussain, subtle discrimination has been part of daily life for the two and half years he has lived here as a student and then research professor at Sungkonghoe University in Seoul. He says that, even in crowded subways, people tend not sit next to him. In June, he said, he fell asleep on a bus and when it reached the terminal, the driver woke him up by poking him in the thigh with his foot, an extremely offensive gesture in South Korea.

“Things got worse for me this time, because I was with a Korean woman,” Mr. Hussain said in an interview. “Whenever I’ve walked with Ms. Hahn or other Korean women, most of the time I felt hostilities, especially from middle-aged men.”

South Korea, a country where until recently people were taught to take pride in their nation’s “ethnic homogeneity” and where the words “skin color” and “peach” are synonymous, is struggling to embrace a new reality. In just the past seven years, the number of foreign residents has doubled, to 1.2 million, even as the country’s population of 48.7 million is expected to drop sharply in coming decades because of its low birth rate.

Many of the foreigners come here to toil at sea or on farms or in factories, providing cheap labor in jobs shunned by South Koreans. Southeast Asian women marry rural farmers who cannot find South Korean brides. People from English-speaking countries find jobs teaching English in a society obsessed with learning the language from native speakers.

For most South Koreans, globalization has largely meant increasing exports or going abroad to study. But now that it is also bringing an influx of foreigners into a society where 42 percent of respondents in a 2008 survey said they had never once spoken with a foreigner, South Koreans are learning to adjust — often uncomfortably.

In a report issued Oct. 21, Amnesty International criticized discrimination in South Korea against migrant workers, who mostly are from poor Asian countries, citing sexual abuse, racial slurs, inadequate safety training and the mandatory disclosure of H.I.V. status, a requirement not imposed on South Koreans in the same jobs. Citing local news media and rights advocates, it said that following last year’s financial downturn, “incidents of xenophobia are on the rise.”

Ms. Hahn said, “Even a friend of mine confided to me that when he sees a Korean woman walking with a foreign man, he feels as if his own mother betrayed him.”

In South Korea, a country repeatedly invaded and subjugated by its bigger neighbors, people’s racial outlooks have been colored by “pure-blood” nationalism as well as traditional patriarchal mores, said Seol Dong-hoon, a sociologist at Chonbuk National University.

Centuries ago, when Korean women who had been taken to China as war prizes and forced into sexual slavery managed to return home, their communities ostracized them as tainted. In the last century, Korean “comfort women,” who worked as sex slaves for the Japanese Imperial Army, faced a similar stigma. Later, women who sold sex to American G.I.’s in the years following the 1950-53 Korean War were despised even more. Their children were shunned as “twigi,” a term once reserved for animal hybrids, said Bae Gee-cheol, 53, whose mother was expelled from her family after she gave birth to him following her rape by an American soldier.

Even today, the North Korean authorities often force abortion on women who return home pregnant after going to China to find food, according to defectors and human rights groups.

“When I travel with my husband, we avoid buses and subways,” said Jung Hye-sil, 42, who married a Pakistani man in 1994. “They glance at me as if I have done something incredible. There is a tendency here to control women and who they can date or marry, in the name of the nation.”

For many Koreans, the first encounter with non-Asians came during the Korean War, when American troops fought on the South Korean side. That experience has complicated South Koreans’ racial perceptions, Mr. Seol said. Today, the mix of envy and loathing of the West, especially of white Americans, is apparent in daily life.

The government and media obsess over each new report from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, to see how the country ranks against other developed economies. A hugely popular television program is “Chit Chat of Beautiful Ladies” — a show where young, attractive, mostly Caucasian women who are fluent in Korean discuss South Korea. Yet, when South Koreans refer to Americans in private conversations, they nearly always attach the same suffix as when they talk about the Japanese and Chinese, their historical masters: “nom,” which means “bastards.” Tammy Chu, 34, a Korean-born film director who was adopted by Americans and grew up in New York State, said she had been “scolded and yelled at” in Seoul subways for speaking in English and thus “not being Korean enough.” Then, she said, her applications for a job as an English teacher were rejected on the grounds that she was “not white enough.”

Ms. Hahn said that after the incident in the bus last July, her family was “turned upside down.” Her father and other relatives grilled her as to whether she was dating Mr. Hussain. But when a cousin recently married a German, “all my relatives envied her, as if her marriage was a boon to our family,” she said.

The Foreign Ministry supports an anti-discrimination law, said Kim Se-won, a ministry official. In 2007, the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination recommended that South Korea adopt such a law, deploring the widespread use of terms like “pure blood” and “mixed blood.” It urged public education to overcome the notion that South Korea was “ethnically homogenous,” which, it said, “no longer corresponds to the actual situation.”

But a recent forum to discuss proposed legislation against racial discrimination turned into a shouting match when several critics who had networked through the Internet showed up. They charged that such a law would only encourage even more migrant workers to come to South Korea, pushing native workers out of jobs and creating crime-infested slums. They also said it was too difficult to define what was racially or culturally offensive.

“Our ethnic homogeneity is a blessing,” said one of the critics, Lee Sung-bok, a bricklayer who said his job was threatened by migrant workers. “If they keep flooding in, who can guarantee our country won’t be torn apart by ethnic war as in Sri Lanka?”

The anti-discrimination bill still hasn't been passed

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Attempts in 2007, 2010 and 2012 to pass an anti-discrimination bill failed due to opposition from religious groups, which opposed the inclusion of sexual minorities.

^Will Korea do anything to protect its Nationhood, or will they follow a more Western path of inviting the world to come and stay, despite rude middle aged Korean mens nasty taunts?

Quote: (11-19-2014 09:40 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

By this logic, if you were to demand 10 million dollars from Donald Trump, and the Donald told you to take a hike, you could argue that he's interfering with your ability to do as you please by not giving you 10 million dollars.

No, because I am giving nothing in exchange to Donald Trump for this $10MM dollars. The reason people are so sensitive to job discrimination is because everyone needs to work to survive. Having a job is surviving. Your money has to come from somewhere. Either it's going to come from working for it, or it's going to come from the government in welfare. Which means someone else is working for it. So the point of non-discrimination clauses is to make it as easy for people as possible to survive and make sure they aren't being barred from making a living and surviving on account of factors that don't matter and are out of their control.

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Now suppose you wanted to teach in an American school and a liberal school board rejected you on the grounds that female teachers are supposedly more trustworthy around children. Would you say that's their right and it's defensible, or would you be firing off an article on RoKs about anti-male discrimination?

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If we're talking about private schools, it certainly is their right to hire whomever they want. If we're talking about public schools, they have no business being in existence.

Okay so no discrimination is off the table for private businesses? So if a bunch of HR SJWs took over fortune 500 countries and decided to fire large numbers of men and replace them with women as a form of affirmative action and fighting patriarchy, you'd be perfectly fine with that? I'm assuming we wouldn't hear a peep from you on this issue.

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Ok. Black libertarians exist.

Sure, a couple, but they are outliers.

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So you're saying there should not be quotas but it should be illegal to bar somebody from employment on the basis of race.

How would you enforce such a law?

How is currently being enforced?

Here's the difference. If Google doesn't have exactly 12% black programmers, that alone doesn't mean they are practicing discrimination. It simply could be that such persons are in short supply. They should not be forced to mechanically balance their workforce according the population demographics. However, if Google had a proven policy of barring black programmers from employment no matter how qualified, then that's racial discrimination. Don't you see the difference?

Racial discrimination is hard to enforce and prosecute. Sometimes someone will get secretly caught on tape admitting racist practices in hiring and then a case is filed. I think Abercrombie and Fitch got into trouble a few years back in putting whites in visible positions in the store and putting minorities only in the stockroom or refusing to hire them outright. I understand racial discrimination in some circumstances such as an Italian restaurant that only hires Italians. However discrimination in a mainstream clothing store is a totally different matter.

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The day that I'm forced to put somebody on my payroll against my will, I'll burn my business to the ground and throw my greenbox in the ocean.

They can't force you to hire any particular individual. But if the person that you discriminated against can prove that you turned him away because of his race and has the evidence to prove it(somehow) you can be sued or have to pay a fine. You may feel that's a violation of your rights, but keep in mind there are historical reasons this is the case. If whites had not practiced the most vile discrimination against blacks at every level in the past, none of this legislation would've ever seen the light of day. It's the same thing with gays. The reason they are so radicalized is because we fucked with them so much in the past, now we've gone overboard in the opposite direction. Whereas in Thailand, gays have never been treated that bad and thus you don't have gays marching and demanding all these rights there. These things don't happen in a vacuum. History shapes why things are the way they are now.

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Look, business owners aren't obliged to hire anybody they don't want.

If somebody doesn't want to hire me because he doesn't like my big Jew nose, or my hippie hairdo, or the sound of my voice, and he tells me so, what am I supposed to do, run to Uncle Sam to force the business owner to give me a job, or money in the form of damages?

If somebody doesn't want to give me a job because I'm a Jew, I'm not going to go crying to the nanny state to hold a gun to his head and give me his shit because he's a racist bastard.

And if you chose not to sue, that's your right not to do so. But the law is the law and if someone bans you from employment only because you're a Jew, that is illegal. You are of course allowed to not hire someone you don't like, and there are a million reasons why you might not like someone and may not want to work for them. But because of the history of racial discrimination in this country for 4 centuries, the Supreme Court decided that it's illegal to bar people from employment due to race. That's not going to change. If that angers you, then you should be angry at all the whites who supported Jim Crow and banned blacks from voting, property ownership, buses, education, etc who made such legislation necessary just for blacks to survive.

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So who says you have to like people who aren't like you?

You don't, but why the hell would you want to dislike everyone that isn't like you? Wouldn't you rather be surrounded by friends rather than enemies?

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Asians instinctively sense their values are under a furtive attack in the form of American popculture infiltrating their society, hence their xenophobia.

I'm sure East Asians societies have been xenophobic long before there was an America.

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Rights are social constructs granted by law. Logic and morality exist independently of law. Often they intersect with rights, sometimes they do not. I have the right to say all types of fucked up shit about someone in public and it's a protected right under the constitution. That however doesn't make it morally or logically justifiable to behave in such a way. Let's not talk about rights and morality like they are one and the same.

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So while it may be illogical and immoral to not hire somebody on the basis of race, religion, sexuality, etc., you have the *right* to run your business as you see fit.

Business people have a problem with being told what to do.

Business people are told what to do in a million different ways already. I'm sure you've heard of regulations and zoning, and environmental restrictions, and noise restrictions and child labor laws, and overtime pay laws, etc etc. There are parameters set for all business activity. Part of Obama's first term agenda was regulating the financial industry. Where do you get this idea that businesses can just do whatever the hell they want?

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You want to destroy business completely?

Make businesspeople hire folks they don't want to hire.

This is already the case and corporations are making record profits. So I don't know what point you're making.

Quote: (11-19-2014 05:34 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Quote: (11-19-2014 03:36 PM)turkishcandy Wrote:  

Speakeasy you said it yourself you are not being objective about this. Bringing the bitter feelings of ''400 years of slavery'' into this discussion about a job recruitment is not doing any good. Very good points have been made in this thread about the sense of right&wrong being subjective and cultural differences. Korea is not responsible for slavery, so they don't have to bend over and make anti-discrimination and positive discrimination laws.

You misread my words. I didn't say slavery. I said discrimination: "400 years of discriminatory history behind me"

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They just don't want to be taught English by black teachers. You can't force them to obey Western standards.

Of course you can't force them. But you shine a light on it and let the world know what kind of xenophobic society Korea is. In 1980 someone could've said, "South Africans just don't want blacks to vote, you can't force them to obey Western standards."

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And Korea pulling this shit doesn't mean blacks are still discriminated in today's world. It's a complex situation. Black men are favored more by some girls than whites in many European and Western countries whereas the vice-versa case only exists in Asia. I have female Turkish friends (who are known for their conservativeness) whose biggest fantasy is to fuck a black dude, and Turkish people are overly-friendly to blacks, but on the other hand black people have hard time finding a place to rent in Turkey since they live in groups and can't pay their rent on time.

Well introduce me to these girls when I visit Turkey.

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This racism thing to me is about how you look at the glass. Passive racism (as I'd like to call it) is a reality of this world. Arabs face certain prejudice in U.S, Turks in Germany, Kurds in Turkey, Jews in Islamic states, Russians in Ukraine, Indians basically everywhere, the list goes on. Just take Korea out of your countries-to-visit list and move on.

And I've already done that long ago. But I throw my support behind this brotha that is out there exposing the truth. Some Koreans will listen to what he has to say and understand that their behavior toward black English teachers is making no sense. Perhaps they are simply ignorant and don't realize that blacks have been in N. America as long as whites have and that we are native speakers of English. If that's the case, then information is what they need.

Also, many blacks already do know what they are getting into teaching in Asia but they take a chance any way because these are some of the few English teaching jobs that actually pay decent money.

Wrong. Leave those people alone. If they want to act like shit, let them eat cake. You aren't going to change them, that happens from within. They have alot of issues right now. They have a Crash the movie like situation and they gotta deal with that or fall behind economically like some uncouth barbarians. No black man will fix this. No whites either. They don't watch what we do on their TV shows, nor care what we think. Don't look at gdp and technology and think any country outside of Japan is 1st world. None of them are. Not even close.

South Korea will have to have a lot of foreigners coming in to do the work, since it's birth rate is dogshit:

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Could South Korea's Low Birth Rate Really Mean Extinction?

By Lakshmi Gandhi

A new population simulation by South Korea’s National Assembly Research Service has observers worried about the country’s long-term future.

According to the research service’s projections, South Korea’s population will become completely extinct by 2750 if the country’s birth rate of 1.19 children per woman continues. The country currently has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world, leading only Hong Kong, Taiwan, Macau and Singapore.

The report is the latest attempt by South Korean officials to increase the birthrate among its citizenry. In 2010, the health ministry attempted to encourage employees within its own office to “get dedicated to childbirth and upbringing" by literally turning off the office lights early. Other local jurisdictions reportedly offer matchmaking services, cash, and other incentives to encourage more births.

The South Korean government’s push for more births and bigger families in recent years is a relatively new development for the country with a current population of about 50 million. Immediately after the Korean War in the 1950s, the new country of South Korea was primarily rural with a agricultural economy. The country’s population at the time was a reflection of this, with a total fertility rate of more than six children per woman.

Worried that the rate of population growth was unsustainable, in 1962 the government unveiled a multifaceted family planning campaign that stressed health care and birth control. Koreans, for the most part, embraced the concept of a “small and prosperous family.”

Since then, economic and social pressures -- including the push for higher levels of education and its associated costs -- have kept birth rates low. The Financial Times reported last year that many families feel that they have to choose between having more children or financing their current offspring’s education.

Since the government's population projection’s release there has been a spate of headlines all over the world warning of South Korean's demise. But experts say that predication does not present the full picture. Demographers did not seem to take into consideration factors like changes in immigration policies or political events like a hypothetical reunification of the two Koreas -- two issues that could have a significant impact on population. Among the skeptics is Columbia University professor Stephen Sestanovich, who noted in the Wall Street Journal that “Birth rates are notoriously responsive to such intangibles as the popular mood.”

But South Korea isn’t the first East Asian country to receive a scary prediction about its slow growth. In 2011, researchers at the Tohoku University Graduate School of Economics in Japan created a stir for predicting that Japan would become extinct in 1000 years. That study was also sharply criticized for its methodology.

The problem with demographic predictions (as well as GDP projections) is that they depend too much on drawing a linear progression line based on current variables. Besides being totally wiped out by Mongols, disease, or something no civilization has gone completely extinct from just natural low birth rate. These social variables are much more malleable over the long run.