Tuth, seems like you struck a nerve with a good percentage of the Manosphere audience. I'd say this indicates you're onto something, but is also unsettling how many closed-minded members of the Manosphere exist.

Reading the comments, it is quite disappointing so many men become emotional about politics, at the expense of rationality. Simply flat-out refuting your article without any factual reasoning. No different than convincing a Christian Evangelist that evolution is scientific fact.

You're absolutely right, in that the Manosphere will never be taken seriously if its members continue to neglect critical thinking, questioning and reasoning.

The 'liberals' in the Western World have lost their way in recent decades but let's not forget their true values and core beliefs, which some factions still hold onto.

Blind faith in any topic should have no place in the Manosphere.


Great article Tuth.

http://www.returnofkings.com/5915/libera...y#comments

Quote:Quote:

You know reading through the comments here is pretty depressing. Here you have a guy calling for a “big tent” approach to the manosphere and the response is basically to exclude and deny. This movement will fail the same way the tea party movement failed if it can be summed up and dismissed as a reactionary movement of the far right. Men of all political stripes need to be engaged. Do you see women trashing each other over political stripes? No, because they value the female objective over the partisan objective.

Men look increasingly fucking retarded in this movement, because we obviously value our partisan bias and political objectives over the male objective. If it comes down to a choice between putting aside your hatred of liberals and working together as men who can agree the system is broken or living in Orwellian femdom what would you choose?

Best comment IMO

Quote: (02-20-2013 05:56 PM)Prophylaxis Wrote:  

Tuth, seems like you struck a nerve with a good percentage of the Manosphere audience. I'd say this indicates you're onto something, but is also unsettling how many closed-minded members of the Manosphere exist.

I'm not surprised with the response. I knew I was kicking over a hornet's nest and that I'd get torched in the comments (though not by everyone, of course). I was fine with it since some of that stuff needed to be said. I'm actually delightfully surprised at how many commenters agree with my imperative(s) in the article. There are some brilliant comments.

Quote: (02-20-2013 05:56 PM)Prophylaxis Wrote:  

You're absolutely right, in that the Manosphere will never be taken seriously if its members continue to neglect critical thinking, questioning and reasoning.

Exactly. The comment that Samseau quotes above nails it in its mention of the differences in solidarity on the female side.

Quote: (02-20-2013 05:56 PM)Prophylaxis Wrote:  

The 'liberals' in the Western World have lost their way in recent decades but let's not forget their true values and core beliefs, which some factions still hold onto.

Not only has the "liberal" side been infested with a buffet of overly vocal morons who are giving the rest of the group a bad name (not unlike American conservatism), the word "liberal" itself has been successfully rendered a generic term of abuse--with little consideration to its actual meaning, which is now virtually lost. That's a big problem in itself. I touched on it in this comment:

   

Quote: (02-20-2013 05:56 PM)Prophylaxis Wrote:  

Great article Tuth.

Thanks, man.

This is spot on. And it's not just conservatives who can't comprehend a leftist who is into game and is anti-feminist.

I just got into an argument with my left friends last night about this because I consider myself to be progressive and anti-feminist.

[qoute]Reading the comments, it is quite disappointing so many men become emotional about politics, at the expense of rationality. Simply flat-out refuting your article without any factual reasoning. No different than convincing a Christian Evangelist that evolution is scientific fact.

You're absolutely right, in that the Manosphere will never be taken seriously if its members continue to neglect critical thinking, questioning and reasoning.
[/quote]

Yeah, their was a surprising number of hamsters running wild in the comments. We're doomed if we get pegged as far-right, we'll get dismissed as Todd Aikin's by the mainstream public.

I consider myself a left wing/liberal, what is in my signature is just pointing out my disdain of several people who also consider themselves "liberal" yet do not allow any proper discussion except of what the want to hear.

Liberals are not the enemy, conservatives are not the enemy, but why hold on to identifying with labels that are divisive by definition? I salute the intent of the article (unity), but as long as you stay within the colored lines other people define for you in the public consciousness, there will be division.

Seeing how a lot of the manosphere are actually far right (just check out the never ending bitching about "baboons" and multiculturalism at CH) they are unlikely to drop this anytime soon.

The article is definitely a breath of fresh air.

The political line of thought on this forum has definitely become weaker over time. In fact, many conversations here over politics have moments where they step completely outside of reality, and could more easily be thought of as a folktale rather than serious political conversation.

I still remember when someone on here suggested that taxes as an entirety are designed to be anti-male.

The problem here is that the manosphere is an echo chamber of sorts. The vast majority of men here have the same views on politics with only a few who go outside of the basic ideology. It ends up being a constant circulation of similar ideas, which when read enough times become fact rather than opinion in the reader's mind.

i thought it was a great post tuthmosis!

the less roosh v is associated with the 'manosphere' the better in my opinion. sooo many nutcases that cannot formulate a credible argument.

i thought it was a great post tuthmosis!

the less roosh v is associated with the 'manosphere' the better in my opinion. sooo many nutcases that cannot formulate a credible argument.

the next frontier to address is why there's so many women haters on here.

most of my friends with high lay counts treat women mostly as sex objects, sometimes as potential relationship prospects, but don't hate, just understand. if you're in that top 5-10% pumping out multiple lays a year with hot women why would you be angry with the set up?

there's no reason, unless you're a hardcore noob that can't make the cut or a romantic monogamist.

Quote: (02-20-2013 07:01 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

some of that stuff needed to be said

What needed to be said?

You straight out admit that feminists and their lackeys are on the left and then proceed with the same tired "American left is European centre-right", "Reagan didn't stop the credit crunch", and "GE needs to pay their CIT". Even overlooking the shallowness of those arguments, none of them have anything to do with the manosphere.

Finally, you conclude with a political version of NAWALT: not all the left is like that — the battle cry of the unique snowflake generation. I know. We shouldn't generalize. What a great point.

Is that a new trend on ROK? The anti-scientific manifesto below was also pretty bad. Especially considering that scientific articles confirming knowledge gained through game by early adopters are showing up nearly every day.

Quote: (02-20-2013 07:50 PM)babababalot Wrote:  

i thought it was a great post tuthmosis!

the less roosh v is associated with the 'manosphere' the better in my opinion. sooo many nutcases that cannot formulate a credible argument.

the next frontier to address is why there's so many women haters on here.

most of my friends with high lay counts treat women mostly as sex objects, sometimes as potential relationship prospects, but don't hate, just understand. if you're in that top 5-10% pumping out multiple lays a year with hot women why would you be angry with the set up?

there's no reason, unless you're a hardcore noob that can't make the cut or a romantic monogamist.

Hey, be careful
Most of us don't hate women here.
We hate the attitude of American women.

Haha awesome post. I am neither liberal nor conservative but the anti-left hate in the manosphere can get very paranoid.

The original thought is well intentioned but poorly timed. The ideas contained within the manosphere are there because of the absolute ejection from politically correct conversation. Good patriarchy? Bad feminism? Patriotism? Masculinity? Show me a recent speech by any party that proclaims how important fathers and strong dad leaders are and how women complement mens' roles...

Correct me if i'm wrong OP, but shouldn't both liberals and conservatives be talking about manosphere stuff just a little bit before we suggest that manosphere people embrace more of whats already being talked about publicly?

The first step seems to be turn both parties back to discussing manosphere issues. *Then* clarify how both liberal and conservative parties respond to those issues. Or even better: define new parties with solid manosphere ideology.

Warren says this post needs more Brian

I think this article needed to be published. Even though after initially learning "game" and then becoming more ingrained with the red pill, I have certainly undertaken more views from the 'right', I still remain a centrist for a lack of a better word. I am also glad the article addressed the point that labels such as 'left' and 'right' have become slightly redundant with both the left and right being hijacked by extremists in both the camps. It's also a shame that politics in the USA and to a lesser extent Canada, has been hijacked by labels of left and right. Many times the issues can be solved with sensible solutions but you know both the sides are going to oppose each other if the solution appears to be "left" or "right".

I speak for myself (although I think many will agree with me on this), I am all for equality of opportunity but where the feminists and left lose me is when they try to legislate equality of outcome. I think Roosh even had a post sometime ago where he talked about women and feminists wanting their cake and eating it too. If women want to be able to compete with me for jobs and other economic opportunities, I am totally fine with that but what I am not okay with is massive alimony and child support payments that basically transfer wealth from men to women.

Another glaring example: this week in Toronto an internal memo was found from the school board that urged the school administrators to hire more males and minorities. Yes, you read it right, more males and minorities. Obviously, women and feminists were up in arms. There was even a follow-up article in the same newspaper that "White Women" were being "discriminated" against with this policy when the overwhelming majority of teachers are women (mostly white). However, the same newspaper runs articles at least once a week where they make a push for women to be "included" in some "male dominated industry" and no one even bats an eyelid.

The 'right' loses me with its insistence of including religion (generally Christianity) in their decisions and unfettered corporatism. Yes, I do realize in the end that both the left and right favour big business over the common man but in the end it's more of the same from both. And as pointed out on this board many times the liberals and conservative politicians are cut from the same cloth.

It would be a shame if the "manosphere" is seen as another Tea Party type extreme right-wing movement because the Tea Party was actually crazy and we actually make some sense (I hope I am not just rationalizing this).

I also find it interesting that most PUA boards are generally devoid of divisive politics threads. They do get trolled by racial threads at times but generally the boards are more focused on game (I used to be an active member on a couple of prominent game forums). I was drawn to Roissy (not anymore) and Roosh because these forums are more encompassing and include broader discussions on game, culture, feminism, and the state of men.

I am sure Roosh and Tuth are loving the added traffic to ROK from the article. Nothing like an article that gets a bunch of people up in arms and starts an avalanche of online traffic.

Quote: (02-20-2013 08:09 PM)soup Wrote:  

Quote: (02-20-2013 07:50 PM)babababalot Wrote:  

i thought it was a great post tuthmosis!

the less roosh v is associated with the 'manosphere' the better in my opinion. sooo many nutcases that cannot formulate a credible argument.

the next frontier to address is why there's so many women haters on here.

most of my friends with high lay counts treat women mostly as sex objects, sometimes as potential relationship prospects, but don't hate, just understand. if you're in that top 5-10% pumping out multiple lays a year with hot women why would you be angry with the set up?

there's no reason, unless you're a hardcore noob that can't make the cut or a romantic monogamist.

Hey, be careful
Most of us don't hate women here.
We hate the attitude of American women.

There has been a lot of "woman hate".

Personally, I love women. I think people need to take this stuff less seriously and have more fun. It's The Playboy Way after all.

---

Great post Tuth.

For I while I thought I was solo doing battle against all the right wingers in the "Manosphere".

I didn't really mind because I always smacked the sh*t out of them and curb stomped them, but it is good to see varying view points.

I vaguely remember a poll on here where members were a lot more liberal than everyone thought.

By the way, I am going to have to bite the whole "Vegan, Skinny Jeans Wearing, Bearded Weaksters" thing from you.

Quote: (02-20-2013 08:08 PM)thatGuy Wrote:  

What needed to be said?

Everything I said in the article.

I get the sense you read some other article, skimmed it on your iPhone, or made up your mind what it was about before you read it, because I didn't write half those things and you seemed to have missed the message entirely. Since other people got it, I think it's on your side.

Quote: (02-20-2013 08:08 PM)thatGuy Wrote:  

I know. We shouldn't generalize. What a great point.

Great. Then my work is done. I'm glad to introduce you to the powers of nuance.

Quote: (02-20-2013 08:08 PM)thatGuy Wrote:  

Is that a new trend on ROK?

What, not giving you confirmation bias? You'll have to ask the editor-in-chief, Roosh.

Quote: (02-20-2013 09:28 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

For I while I thought I was solo doing battle against all the right wingers in the "Manosphere".

You are not alone.

As a general rule, the comments sections of any blog are almost always going to be much more extreme and much less thoughtful than the writers on the blog. That's just the way it is. There's something about the dynamic of comments that lends itself to people just trying to shit on each other or out-snark each other. The forum is a much better... forum for having a conversation. Hopefully, this forum remains that way.

There's nothing wrong with having strong political opinions, but the mentality of some of those guys commenting on ROK is just terrible.

The left/right nomenclature in US politics is just comical at this point, there is literally no substantial difference between the two any more.
The puppet strings have never been more visible, and nobody seems to care...

What we're left with is a monolithic oligarchy that increasingly glorifies state power over individual liberty at every turn.

The only part of the "liberals aren't the enemy" sentiment that I can get on board with at all is that state power in and of itself does not necessarily lead to a blue pill society... Just look at Eastern Europe. It's pretty impossible to argue that state power isn't a crucial ingredient for feminism to thrive, though.

Quote: (02-20-2013 09:28 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

I vaguely remember a poll on here where members were a lot more liberal than everyone thought.

How conservative can the forum really be when Obama won over 2/3 of the vote in this poll? http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-15593.html? and won a 2008 poll by an even higher margin http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-180.html? Remember that most of our readers are single, under 30 and not particularly religious. I think the conservative element is just more vocal than it's size would indicate, which is amplified by the writing of a few conservative bloggers.

I just want to say that I don't care all that much about manospheric unity. I care about advancing knowledge and intelligent discussion free from feminist censorship. I don't care how fractured the webspace becomes, so long as the quality improves and the ideas are shared.

Feminism's (apparent) unity is part of what makes it powerful, but it's also part of what makes it suck and get so many things wrong.

I hope the manosphere is never unified. Because then it would suck, too.

Great article, Tuth!

p.s. I also encourage everyone to read the fantastic summary of socialism (more or less a synonym for "liberal") at In Mala Fide, discussing the hypothetical idea of reducing sexual market inequality with the same zeal with which we work on reducing the money market inequality:

Quote:InMalaFide Wrote:

The One Form of Socialism That is Verboten
http://inmalafide.com/the-one-form-of-so...-verboten/
...
Now, guaranteeing free nookie for romantically underperforming men is consistent with the socialist program of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” However, much like the robots in I, Robot who had secret brains that allowed them to disobey the Three Laws, progressivism has built within it a secret core of feminism that can and does override the primary socialist programming at any time. Anything that infringes on female sovereignty is to be opposed, even if it is consistent with socialist logic. Hence, the thought of progressives accepting the concept of a “National Bureau of Prostitution” redistributing sex from the most privileged to the least is a ludicrous pipe dream.
...