Usually it can be summarized as thus: If person X has some kind of brand to protect, they will move heaven and earth to distance themselves from the proper alt-right elements discussing race, JQ and other such questions. Cernovich has his books to push so he does that, same with Infowars and PrisonPlanet and Bill Mitchel. People who are not intrinsically tied to a product that they need to sell have more freedom in what they can speak about.

Roosh and Matt Forney also have more freedom because hey, they're PUA teachers and most of the MSM world already thinks they're if not Hitler then at least something like a Rape-Hitler, so one more false label won't do any harm after the Canada fiasco, they're persona non grata to the cucked beta world anyway

I had some screenshot were Cernovich and PrisonPlanet proclaim how they "ALT-RIGHT TO THE BITTER END BRO" and then some months later "oh no no alt-right? me? nah that's not me man I just lisp some Gorilla mindset yo!"

Quote: (12-27-2016 11:23 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Commercial brands in the new right need a high level of stability and predictability to operate, especially after power aims are reached. They are therefore incompatible with a chaotic general movement that can be extreme and agitate for revolution. This is why the brands in the new right don't want things to get too extreme. It makes sense commercially, but the cost is they lose the edgelord respect of being a part of the movement they had catered to. You will then get cycles of disavowals, infighting, and purges.

If you look at how individual commercial brands succeed, they usually establish their own island independent of any movement (e.g. Anthony Robbins), or else they will be constantly at whim of the mob and fleeting trends which is not good for business.

This is why I'm curious to see where Cernovich is going with his whole operation. Prior to the Trump phenomenon his platform was almost entirely lifestyle and self-improvement focused (although he seemed to dip his toe into the political waters with Gamergate). But after sensing an opportunity, he was able to catapult himself into much greater popularity and influence levels through shifting his content toward alt-right politics. You followed a similar trajectory, but your political shift was more gradual and organic (and partially thrust upon you by people who declared themselves your enemy, forcing you to defend yourself).

Cernovich is obviously ambitious and wants to grow his brand (and good for him), but if his shift from lifestyle content to politics is permanent then that means he now has a financial incentive to make his political brand palatable to as many people as possible. And that is understandable, and is not in itself a bad thing (that is essentially the art of politics itself). It does mean, however, that he will, out of necessity, seek to distance himself reflexively from the more controversial figures on the alt-right, regardless of whether or not what those people are saying is true. Basically, Cernovich is positioning himself to be a legitimate new media figure. He doesn't want to be part of the mainstream media establishment, but he wants a similar level of influence, stature and recognition. And he doesn't think that's possible if he is associated with anyone who publicly questions the out-sized influence of Jewish power structures in the West. He senses, correctly, that that issue is still, now - even post-Trump victory and post-2016 mainstreaming of the alt-right - politically radioactive.

The danger is that Cernovich and other influential figures (who have their own financial or personal incentives for discouraging discussion of Jews) will wind up, despite their best intentions, becoming the thought police of the right. And frankly, we don't need that. As an ideology centered on the idea of truth, the alt-right rejects all thought policing as a foundational principle. Just as we refuse to have our thoughts and opinions censored by the left, and we also refuse to be censored by our fellows on the right. If you want to talk tactics and the optics of public relations, that's one thing. But if we wind up in the position of self-censoring and actively censoring others within the movement because we find their message "offensive" or "divisive", then we've officially entered the territory of SJWs and are in deep trouble.

I don't understand everything to the fine details, (I just read Roosh's link of the summary), but Mike needs to build a better coalition around himself. I need to piggyback off of what Scorpion said. It looks like a circus. Milo has no business being involved with us (Roosh you really should consider thinking about closing his thread here, based on your own rules), and Mike really should not affiliate himself with that guy either.

Mike needs to think more long term and more strategically. He is making the same mistakes Ann Coulter (or Malkin) and similar conservatives made when they were younger. He will be in his 50s getting before he figures it out at this rate. I bet he is still high from his battle against FOX, but in the end, he eventually needs to get back onto TV and build his portfolio within the Republican/Conservative space. Hanging out with circus freaks that have poor temperament, are unprofessional, and not serious is not going to get it done. Perhaps he could use more allies from him home space (talking about us), but I don't think the rest of us are ready to expose ourselves yet. I'm getting close, but I am not ready myself. Until then, he is going to have to get better alliances with legit conservatives and work within the process.

They might be dry and come off as old fogeys, but he is a father now. No older men with power and connections take younger men with no children seriously and most of the time it because of this. They need to know they can trust you. I know we tend to be anti-corporate around here but there is profound wisdom in good order and organization. Corporations succeed and make money because those methods work well. Politics is not much different. Men with something to lose (skin in the game) will only trust another in the same boat. I know his kid is young (mine are too), but he has to start putting himself into position, so that God can bless him with a position of authority and power. He himself has to understand that he has to be more responsible with the authority he is commanding younger troops with right now even!

If he needs to, he could lead us younger guys and build a newer coalition of new age conservatives. If he wants to think outside the box, he can always do that too, but iron will always sharpen iron. He does not have to be the next George Will, but he cannot continue to wallow in mud with people of dubious character. Aurini learned this same lesson last year and it cost him alot of money. Mike would benefit getting more advice from Aurini or even working with him more in some capacity as well. If he is too afraid to work with anyone alt-right based, then that is all the more reason he needs to learn how to work within the existing conservative groups right now. If he puts in the work, he might be on the staff for Trump's second term or whoever comes after him. When Trump's staff goes through people searches, guys like Mike right now are not touchable. Gotta fix that now if he wants to build his name bigger in this space.

He can still keep a Gorilla Mindset and still work within the mainstream system. We are men, not special unicorns. We lead other men, and the best way to do that is by example.

Quote: (12-27-2016 12:59 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Quote: (12-27-2016 11:23 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Commercial brands in the new right need a high level of stability and predictability to operate, especially after power aims are reached. They are therefore incompatible with a chaotic general movement that can be extreme and agitate for revolution. This is why the brands in the new right don't want things to get too extreme. It makes sense commercially, but the cost is they lose the edgelord respect of being a part of the movement they had catered to. You will then get cycles of disavowals, infighting, and purges.

If you look at how individual commercial brands succeed, they usually establish their own island independent of any movement (e.g. Anthony Robbins), or else they will be constantly at whim of the mob and fleeting trends which is not good for business.

This is why I'm curious to see where Cernovich is going with his whole operation. Prior to the Trump phenomenon his platform was almost entirely lifestyle and self-improvement focused (although he seemed to dip his toe into the political waters with Gamergate). But after sensing an opportunity, he was able to catapult himself into much greater popularity and influence levels through shifting his content toward alt-right politics. You followed a similar trajectory, but your political shift was more gradual and organic (and partially thrust upon you by people who declared themselves your enemy, forcing you to defend yourself).

Cernovich is obviously ambitious and wants to grow his brand (and good for him), but if his shift from lifestyle content to politics is permanent then that means he now has a financial incentive to make his political brand palatable to as many people as possible. And that is understandable, and is not in itself a bad thing (that is essentially the art of politics itself). It does mean, however, that he will, out of necessity, seek to distance himself reflexively from the more controversial figures on the alt-right, regardless of whether or not what those people are saying is true. Basically, Cernovich is positioning himself to be a legitimate new media figure. He doesn't want to be part of the mainstream media establishment, but he wants a similar level of influence, stature and recognition. And he doesn't think that's possible if he is associated with anyone who publicly questions the out-sized influence of Jewish power structures in the West. He senses, correctly, that that issue is still, now - even post-Trump victory and post-2016 mainstreaming of the alt-right - politically radioactive.

The danger is that Cernovich and other influential figures (who have their own financial or personal incentives for discouraging discussion of Jews) will wind up, despite their best intentions, becoming the thought police of the right. And frankly, we don't need that. As an ideology centered on the idea of truth, the alt-right rejects all thought policing as a foundational principle. Just as we refuse to have our thoughts and opinions censored by the left, and we also refuse to be censored by our fellows on the right. If you want to talk tactics and the optics of public relations, that's one thing. But if we wind up in the position of self-censoring and actively censoring others within the movement because we find their message "offensive" or "divisive", then we've officially entered the territory of SJWs and are in deep trouble.

Good points that echo my same sentiment. He has to keep better company with other like minded males/females in the political sphere.

I think he will naturally drift into a better spot, but if he doesn't want to waste time, he needs to make adjustments right now, and not only when his child is old enough to go to school. By then, he has lost alot of time on what we call "Political Capital." The amount you can build is often times limited and you have to invest early to avoid wasting the prime years you could have used it.

Me personally, I think he should go back to what got him up there to begin with and stop picking fights with mainstream media. He might be close to a breakthrough, but at this rate, he will end up going back into lifestyle stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but he has more talent/skills in other things that could serve him and his family better in the long term.

Guys who were not working in politics since college or right after in public sector, tend to struggle alot when starting out in it, but it is almost never too late to get it right. Trump is a great example of that. Even when you are a seasoned politician or pundit, you still need advice, because you cannot always notice bad directions when you are in the middle of a issue.

I did a Periscope on the issue:

https://www.periscope.tv/rooshv/1YqKDAVWbrLGV

Summary:

-Mike didn't give a way for Tim to save face, hence the public fight
-This is becoming an issue of the brands versus the non-brands
-Movements are mobs. If you want to build a business on top of a mob, you have to do what they want
-I don't believe in having a brand. Neomasculinity is a catch-all to get out of the infighting cycle of movements
-Mike will probably need to divorce himself from all movements and do his own thing

Quote: (12-27-2016 01:18 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

I did a Periscope on the issue:

https://www.periscope.tv/rooshv/1YqKDAVWbrLGV

Summary:

-Mike didn't give a way for Tim to save face, hence the public fight
-This is becoming an issue of the brands versus the non-brands
-Movements are mobs. If you want to build a business on top of a mob, you have to do what they want
-I don't believe in having a brand. Neomasculinity is a catch-all to get out of the infighting cycle of movements
-Mike will probably need to divorce himself from all movements and do his own thing

Well said Roosh.

That highlighted one was a big one. He gave him no way out, which is part of just good ol fashioned politics in general. Easing your hand out of a animal's jaws always makes more sense than just yanking it out.

Mike is working to combat the JQ in real life by building an empire of his own to take away part of their control. Mike has a plan and is looking 5-10 years into the future on how to make real change.

The alt right anime avitars would rather stay anonymous and start drama from the sidelines. They think the Jews are at fault for them being losers and not having a cutie pie girlfriend because the Jews did feminism don't ya know.

People like Mike and Roosh have their finger on the pulse of culture and are doing more of a dance, trying to slowly progress to a society that is better for everyone.

These alt right guys want to AMOG your grandmother into becoming a neo Nazi.

I think Roosh is right in that now Trump won, having no solid traget now means there is going to be this infighting.

It's clear to me now that if you want to get anything done you can't rely on the mob, and very seldom on other people. You have to do it yourself.

I think most criticisms of the WN part of the alt right straw man it a bit. Few argue that small numbers of high IQ non whites who immigrate legally are not welcome. It's the hordes of somalis and mestizos that the (((elite))) push on the American public that is the problem. Mike and Bill have a powerful commercial interest in reaching normies who would otherwise be turned off by racial IQ discussion, etc.

Have we ever considered that maybe Cernovich just doesn't like Nazis, or people who go around play-acting as Nazis?

Quote: (12-27-2016 01:58 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Have we ever considered that maybe Cernovich just doesn't like Nazis, or people who go around play-acting as Nazis?

Pointing out that the overwhelming majority of media in this country is owned by Jews does not make one a Nazi, or a Nazi LARPer.

On the subject of Deploraball, Sam Hyde was also going to be there originally, but apparently cancelled. Supposedly they asked Richard Spencer not to come (not sure if he had already bought a ticket or something) so Sam gave his ticket to someone else. I thought he might be joking at first, but his name has been removed from the event page. Baked Alaska said that it was not actually Deploraball that told Spencer he was not allowed, but the National Press Club.

What a mess.

Quote: (12-27-2016 01:54 PM)Sooth Wrote:  

Mike is working to combat the JQ in real life by building an empire of his own to take away part of their control. Mike has a plan and is looking 5-10 years into the future on how to make real change.

The alt right anime avitars would rather stay anonymous and start drama from the sidelines. They think the Jews are at fault for them being losers and not having a cutie pie girlfriend because the Jews did feminism don't ya know.

People like Mike and Roosh have their finger on the pulse of culture and are doing more of a dance, trying to slowly progress to a society that is better for everyone.

These alt right guys want to AMOG your grandmother into becoming a neo Nazi.

I think Roosh is right in that now Trump won, having no solid traget now means there is going to be this infighting.

It's clear to me now that if you want to get anything done you can't rely on the mob, and very seldom on other people. You have to do it yourself.

I credit RVF for real progressive thinking but it's funny how shame language calling people losers because they dare question The Narrative is thrown out even on here.

Quote: (12-27-2016 04:03 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

Pointing out that the overwhelming majority of media in this country is owned by Jews does not make one a Nazi, or a Nazi LARPer.

Is that what happened, though? I saw Cernovich's message to Baked Alaska because he posted it. It said "Stop doing Nazi salutes" and "Cut out the JQ bullshit." The JQ (Jewish Question), of course, is a phrase associated with Nazis.

Cernovich didn't get mad at Alaska for questioning Jewish representation in the media. He got mad because Alaska was being a Nazi LARPer.

Alaska was doing nazi salutes, and using nazi phrasing. That's what got Cernovich upset. He doesn't want pseudo-Nazis at his big event, or associated with him. Cernovich's publisher, Vox Day, has written all kinds of things about Jewish influence in the US, and Cernovich hasn't said a peep. This is presumably because Vox is smart enough not to go cloaking himself in nazi rhetoric like a teenager trying to be edgy.

SJW or new right?

Quote:[url=https://twitter.com/mitchellvii/status/813860002205147136][/url]

Quote: (12-27-2016 05:03 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

SJW or new right?

Quote:[/url]

This dichotomy has been discussed before the MC / BA beef. Civic nationalism versus ethnic nationalism.

On the side of Civic Nationalism:

Mike Cernovich
Bill Mitchell
Paul Joseph Watson
Alex Jones

On the side of Ethnic Nationalism:

Ramz Paul
Fash the Nation
The Daily Shoah
SBPDL

The most fair minded alternative media types on this issue are Vox Day and Roosh, who address it as a small part of their platform. I just don't think you can make a living as a media personality pushing ethnic nationalism as your number one talking point.

Vox Day's blog should be a daily visit for all RVF members.
[url=http://voxday.blogspot.com/]http://voxday.blogspot.com/

^^ That's unreal; his older tweets about not pissing off Twitter were an obvious sign that he wasn't all the way red-pilled though.

How many of these guys really get it? Can you count on "good ol' Southern boy" Conservatives as real allies when they'd readily white knight for women and sell you out for example? That criticism is fair of the edgy white supremacist types too, who will white knight for women of their race.

Tweets like that give the WN edgelords more fodder and allow them to overlook their own deficiencies, however that tweet needs to be called out. America First is great, SJW buzzwords aren't.

Denying that "brands" matter is no different than game denialism.

Branding is not restricted to commercial applications. Everyone thinks in terms of branding, and everyone has a brand, good or bad, whether it's the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Donald Trump, or Hillary Clinton.

A massive part of Trump's campaign success was branding -- Make America Great Again, Build the Wall, and many less obvious examples. And on the flip side, he also showed us how a bad brand can completely destroy you, e.g., Low Energy Jeb, Lyin' Ted, etc.

Again, branding matters whether you like it or not, whether you choose to "build" your brand or totally ignore it and hope for the best. It's a fundamental part of human psychology, and it's not going away.

People can disagree on specific politics, but every time I see people claim Cernovich is just a shilling opportunist, it just reminds me of some beta saying some player "only has a hot gf because he's a douchebag".

The facts of the matter are, Mike went from political nobody to a massively influential figure in the election, and passed up A LOT of money in the process. If you don't want to associate with his more "mainstream" approach, that's fine, but the Alt-Right seems to specialize in pettiness and butt hurt.

By the way, Mike isn't even Jewish. His middle name is even Christian, as far as I know.

Quote:Quote:

Is that what happened, though? I saw Cernovich's message to Baked Alaska because he posted it. It said "Stop doing Nazi salutes" and "Cut out the JQ bullshit." The JQ (Jewish Question), of course, is a phrase associated with Nazis.

Cernovich didn't get mad at Alaska for questioning Jewish representation in the media. He got mad because Alaska was being a Nazi LARPer.

Alaska was doing nazi salutes, and using nazi phrasing. That's what got Cernovich upset. He doesn't want pseudo-Nazis at his big event, or associated with him. Cernovich's publisher, Vox Day, has written all kinds of things about Jewish influence in the US, and Cernovich hasn't said a peep. This is presumably because Vox is smart enough not to go cloaking himself in nazi rhetoric like a teenager trying to be edgy.

You got any citations for those claims about Baked Alaska's behavior? Primary sources please, because that's not what I saw when I started looking into this last night. Scanning his twitter for the last week I see him talking about white genocide and a few mentions of Jewish control of the media.

Mike is not a reliable source in this matter, as far as it goes, but "Nazi LARPing" is not even what he claimed Alaska was doing in the messages he sent where he delivered his ultimatum. He referenced the Nazi salute business as an example of a fuckup, obviously talking about Richard Spencer.



Vox Day has said things far edgier than anything Baked Alaska has said, and for much longer. But Vox Day isn't a business partner with Mike other than acting as his publisher. Mike has no power at all over VD and Mike knows VD is a dangerous guy to fuck around with. Of course he's not saying anything negative about him. There's nothing but downsides to doing so.

Finally the phrase "Jewish question" predates the Nazis by 40 years and has been used by many movements besides the Nazis. Just because the Nazis referenced it, does not mean it's now forever and always a Nazi thing. That's as ridiculous a claim as the one made by that fucktard who was saying the phoenix on the MAGA Mindset cover looked like a Nazi eagle symbol. Is Mike going to have to read himself out of his own brand because he used Nazi symbolism now?

Quote: (12-27-2016 05:22 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

Denying that "brands" matter is no different than game denialism.

Branding is not restricted to commercial applications. Everyone thinks in terms of branding, and everyone has a brand, good or bad, whether it's the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Donald Trump, or Hillary Clinton.

A massive part of Trump's campaign success was branding -- Make America Great Again, Build the Wall, and many less obvious examples. And on the flip side, he also showed us how a bad brand can completely destroy you, e.g., Low Energy Jeb, Lyin' Ted, etc.

Again, branding matters whether you like it or not, whether you choose to "build" your brand or totally ignore it and hope for the best. It's a fundamental part of human psychology, and it's not going away.

People can disagree on specific politics, but every time I see people claim Cernovich is just a shilling opportunist, it just reminds me of some beta saying some player "only has a hot gf because he's a douchebag".

The facts of the matter are, Mike went from political nobody to a massively influential figure in the election, and passed up A LOT of money in the process. If you don't want to associate with his more "mainstream" approach, that's fine, but the Alt-Right seems to specialize in pettiness and butt hurt.

By the way, Mike isn't even Jewish. His middle name is even Christian, as far as I know.

I believe Mike stated he was Jewish on a Periscope, then later recanted it to show how easy it is to hoax people. I believe he has stated that he grew up Christian but is an atheist.

Milo's Jewishness is massively overstated by the man himself, he's quarter-Jewish and just uses it to defend himself from the left in regards to accusations of Nazism. He much more identifies as Roman Catholic.

There's not just a schism in the 'alt-right', there's also a schism opening up on the forum it seems from various factions, and this needs to be ironed out if we're going to be a united front. Perhaps Roosh doesn't care if we are a united front, but I think it would be good if we were, but I can't really see a reconciliation if I'm honest...judging by arguments I've had over the past few months. We're definitely in the in-fighting purity-signalling stage that comes with new political movements.

I joined this forum because I wanted to get higher quality girls, and because I agreed with a lot of the politics of fellow travellers, yet I never expected to be discussing the finer points of American Neo-Nazism. I have also read enough books and accounts from real Nazis (Albert Speer's diaries, Rudlof Hoess' testimony) to know that Auschwitz etc was very real, and that a lot of them were happy with it. Yes, perhaps the numbers were exaggerated - but you're still talking horrific numbers of Jews and others such as gentile Polish. However, some of the guys on here simultaneously hate Jews, yet deny that these things occurred - a strange position.

Lastly, Milo has done more to destroy the things you claim to hate than anyone else (apart from Trump himself), yet he still gets hate for being "a narcissist"...he is, but has he done good things or has he not? I feel he has. Significantly. He's made being right-wing cool for young people, which is a damn sight more than someone like Richard Spencer (who I don't hate by the way). There's also a lot of people from the forum who have turned away from it (like Tuthmosis for example, or Speakeasy) that wouldn't, had the forum not been so cool with the neo-nazi shit.

^

It is an incredibly bold statement to say that there is a significant pro-neonazi element in this forum. Talking about how we white people don't want to be automatically shit on for defending our own group the way every other group does is not the same as being a fucking neonazi.

It is also not "neonazism" to question the way American Jews act.

^ There are several prominent members who definitely fit that profile. I am European, I know very well what it feels like to be demographically overwhelmed by hostile elements!

re: united front

I for one don't consider disagreements on this Jew stuff to be a deal breaker with any of you. Advice from the sphere, your books, and your forum posts has been life changing for me. My life was in bad shape when I stumbled upon the red pill and there is no going back now. I hope you feel the same way. I understand the reasoning behind the opposing opinion, it makes perfect sense. I have my concerns about what this might mean for our group in the future but others have expressed them well enough. I see no need to argue about it further. I'm with you either way.

We're a bunch of strong willed high energy men, a little ego clashing is inevitable.

Quote:Quote:

There are several prominent members who definitely fit that profile.

Really? Because I can think of one or two not-super-prominent people who are a bit more open to the ideas in line with some of the neonazi positions. I haven't yet seen anyone espousing actual hardcore neonazi ideas here.

Of course, I have no doubt a fair few people here think I'm a borderline neonazi. I'm not. So whatever. I think there's quite a bit of variation in what people consider "neonazi" positions. I get my idea of what neonazism is from actually looking up their platform.

I see the lamentation that the forum politics have changed over the years and I simply do not share the regret of that change. Last year I got a big suspension for pointing out anti-white racism and left the forum for almost a year because of it, though I stayed in touch with a lot of guys I met through the forum. If the general personality of the forum was not to my mind more reasonable now, I never would've come back. It is what it is. Groups change. People come and go. Nothing in life is static.

Mike posted his side of the story over at D&P: https://www.dangerandplay.com/anthime-gi...ska-drama/