[Thersites]

This is just random related to this drama. Regardless on where one stands in the ideological divide, there warning to see the dangers of overextending yourself and losing your frame. Mike did his year end blog post talking about things he did not do well, there is line that is resonating in my head after reading about this drama:

Quote:

Operationally I’m a mess

When you read post, you understand that Mike has created lot of work that he can't handle at the moment. There is so many lose ends to handle, creates a lot of stress and makes one's mind muddled with thoughts. When Baked Alaska cause his disagreements, Mike impulsive reacted the same way as he does when going after the cucks, MSM, and bullies without thinking it through. As for us look in at the fight right now, we seeing what happens when emotions run high and you forget to think of all the consequences.

(12-27-2016 08:31 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

And that's why this is a textbook example of how not to handle a situation like this. Besides the potential for damaging movements I care about, now Mike also just made an enemy with a significant following and little to lose.

This is the part that has me worried a bit. When a man feels like he has nothing to lose, will burning everything down in spite.

[weambulance]

(12-27-2016 09:08 PM)Eastside Wrote:  

(12-27-2016 07:43 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

Cernovich has been making tweets and immediately deleting them, making periscopes and immediately deleting them, relying on logical fallacies like ad hominems and tiptoeing close to defamation. Baked Alaska... hasn't been. He's just outright making fun of Mike and he has openly acknowledged his flaws and problems. If he's been playing the memory hole game, I haven't noticed it yet. Like him or not, at least he's being open.

By the way, if in this situation the ad hominem attacks are true, then it is not a "logical fallacy," or even really "argument" at all.

This is the only point in your post I'm going to respond to because I'm not going to argue interpretations any further. Fine, some people disagree with my assessment, but I have other stuff to do today too. I've made my points.

I basically can't even post anymore today. The captchas are so far up my ass now that half the time I time out on trying to post before I finally get through the retarded street sign captchas.

However, yes, ad hominem is a logical fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Quote:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

[Cattle Rustler]

I feel like this is one of those "Everybody wants to be a nigga, but nobody wants to be a nigga" issues. Everybody hopped on the "alt right" circlejerk without looking into the meaning of "alt right" (established years ago, with WN links) or its links. It was all good and happiness was everywhere, if someone fell out of line they were instructed to fall back in line. Then Trump won and everybody wanted to be the chosen "alt right", the original mission was lost and now people fight over what it means to be alt right.


It's a bit of an irony that manosphere folks are battling it out on social media, and we shun mend who are drama queens or battle it out on social media....because that's what SJWs and women do.

Edit: It seems things that were okay to say in the name of alt right are now not okay to say...because money and branding.

[Eastside]

(12-27-2016 09:19 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

(12-27-2016 09:08 PM)Eastside Wrote:  

(12-27-2016 07:43 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

Cernovich has been making tweets and immediately deleting them, making periscopes and immediately deleting them, relying on logical fallacies like ad hominems and tiptoeing close to defamation. Baked Alaska... hasn't been. He's just outright making fun of Mike and he has openly acknowledged his flaws and problems. If he's been playing the memory hole game, I haven't noticed it yet. Like him or not, at least he's being open.

By the way, if in this situation the ad hominem attacks are true, then it is not a "logical fallacy," or even really "argument" at all.

This is the only point in your post I'm going to respond to because I'm not going to argue interpretations any further. Fine, some people disagree with my assessment, but I have other stuff to do today too. I've made my points.

I basically can't even post anymore today. The captchas are so far up my ass now that half the time I time out on trying to post before I finally get through the retarded street sign captchas.

However, yes, ad hominem is a logical fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Quote:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

I probably phrased that in an unclear way. My interpretation of Mike's comments on Baked Alaska were that he wasn't trying to make an argument against BA at all. Hence the "argument" part that I didn't agree with. I think he was approaching it from the angle of trying to clear the air overall and show his side of the story that people weren't getting from BA's twitter feed. I think Mike essentially laid out the reasons why BA was dropped and kept it to that without delving too much into unrelated ad hominem that wasn't directly related to the situation at hand, outside of maybe the real name stuff which I can see both sides of. I just didn't interpret it the same way as you I guess.

[weambulance]

^

Oh I see what you're saying. Sorry, I misread what you meant. It was clear the first time now that I'm reading it again.

[redbeard]

With any drama, news story, current event, ask yourself:

1. How does this issue personally affect my life?

2. What can I personally do about it?

For me, personally:

1. No effect. I barely knew who Tim was. There will be 499 other people at this party and I will still have an amazing time. Mike, Gavin, all the other "personalities" could drop out and the party would still be success.

2. Absolutely nothing. I will wake up tomorrow and do the same thing. I have my political beliefs that are independent of what any pundits tweet. I do not belong to any "alt right" organization. RVF is my tribe.

For everyone here:

1. Are you even going to the Deploraball?

2. Why are you invested in this? Unless you make money off politics, this is irrelevant.

[redbeard]

If you have a problem with Mike -

[url=https://twitter.com/MAGA3X/status/813911036298403840][/url]

[Neo]

Mike's doing a risk assessment and distancing himself from potential unsavory characters for his image and revenue. Just like preserving muscle/capital vs. gaining more as you get older. He has more to lose at this point.

At different stages of the game risk tolerance is not the same. I haven't heard of baked_alaska, but it's clear he's at a stage where he can take more risk for a potentially high reward, as Mike's going for capital and brand preservation.

I do agree with Scorpion that the issue may arise that Mike may become in a way a 'censor' for the movement. That would be unfortunate because it would lead us away from truth, which I believe is what most of us are after in one way or another. We'll have to observe as things play out, but the guy made a movie on free speech so I doubt it.

Really though this is just a natural progression in life. As you become older and more established you become more risk averse. It has nothing to do with being a 'cuck' or lacking balls. It's just hard for guys like baked_alaska or younger guys to understand.

I'm just in my 30s, but I've felt that change in myself. At one point I considered completely outing myself to go all-in. Especially because of my income source (corporate) I decided against it. I'm still working on being self-sustaining so it's still an option for the future, I was very close and the opportunity may have passed. Now I'm stuck in that mode of how much savings is enough to do it or will it never be enough and it will never happen. For now I just help behind the scenes even though most guys don't even know that I'm helping since they don't know who I am.

Anyway, despite this drama there is a lesson here. That no matter where you are in life there are advantages/disadvantages versus others at different stages, but we're usually blind to them at the moment. Some guy may be broke with nothing to lose and that can be his greatest asset. Another can be very wealthy, but he's going to lesson his risk. So think about that next time a huge obstacle or problem comes up. It may actually be pointing to the solution.

[AnonymousBosch]

(12-27-2016 08:13 PM)gonzoman925 Wrote:  

But for this, it almost seemed like a completely different person. One that was wanting to jettison some people before the big day at the ball lest some 'embarassing' elements of the right say something provocative or out of line to any person in power that was attending.

If it's Tim today, who will it be tomorrow?

No punching to the right, I know. This is just healthy skepticism related to repeated, observable patterns of behaviour.

Am I the only one who remembers Mike throwing the Manosphere under the bus back in 2014?

Huh. It's no longer on his blog, looks like it's been memory-holed.

EDIT: Looks like Matt Forney remembers:

Quote:

I remember the exact moment when it happened. I was sitting in a brunch joint in downtown Buffalo, waiting for the waitress to bring me my orange juice, when I came across Danger & Play’s article on quitting the ‘sphere. Like an empty car ambling forward on drive, I slowly grew angrier, my left hand balling into a fist under the table.

Mike’s article was the catalyst for my growing revelation: the manosphere is dead.

You can read and enjoy what Mike does whilst still considering that he might have the same petty human flaws as the rest of us, and that's OK: it's allowed.

I even bought his Mindset book for a mate of mine - I remember it being just before I went to Hamburg, so late 2015. I recognised Mike was presenting a simplified version of Anti-Catastrophisation Exercises, and, as such, it might help my mate, who was trapped in a toxic relationship with a ball-busting shrew. There's a place for repurposing more complex psychology in Everyman language. Good for Mike.

Cut to Dec 2016:



Stress-induced blood clot in the brain, apparently.

Being blunt, we're not even into Trump's presidency yet, and I'm already jack shit of both the Alt-Right and the New Right, purity spirals and self-promotion, 'implicit' whiteness and online drama. Hell, I stumbled across Kiwifarms the other day to find a picture of one of the TRS podcasters I'd been listening to happily-copping a (possibly-Poz) load in the mouth, and it just strengthened my long-held suspicion that Post-1960's Nazism is intrinsically-tied up with the 70's San Fran Occultist / Hippie / Faggot Scene, and, as such, is of great appeal to the Degenerate Mind. Aurini and Forney have come closest to calling this crap out in the Alt-Right, but perhaps, being the child of Boomer Hippies, I should drop a datasheet on it, though it's probably better doing it in another venue so as not to draw faggoty attention to the forum. (I'll throw up my Kek research, though - the implications are interesting).

Maybe I'm just getting too old for the internet, but I'd much rather hear more from Roosh and Quintus about Neomasculinity.

[CynicalContrarian]

Ironic.
Had Hillary won the election. The various elements arrayed against her, would still have a distinct & viable target to work against.
Yet Trump won instead. Taking a great deal of emphasis away from the 'alt-right'.

So now the cross-hairs begin to wander...

[rw95]

(12-27-2016 05:22 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

Quote:

Is that what happened, though? I saw Cernovich's message to Baked Alaska because he posted it. It said "Stop doing Nazi salutes" and "Cut out the JQ bullshit." The JQ (Jewish Question), of course, is a phrase associated with Nazis.

Cernovich didn't get mad at Alaska for questioning Jewish representation in the media. He got mad because Alaska was being a Nazi LARPer.

Alaska was doing nazi salutes, and using nazi phrasing. That's what got Cernovich upset. He doesn't want pseudo-Nazis at his big event, or associated with him. Cernovich's publisher, Vox Day, has written all kinds of things about Jewish influence in the US, and Cernovich hasn't said a peep. This is presumably because Vox is smart enough not to go cloaking himself in nazi rhetoric like a teenager trying to be edgy.

You got any citations for those claims about Baked Alaska's behavior? Primary sources please, because that's not what I saw when I started looking into this last night. Scanning his twitter for the last week I see him talking about white genocide and a few mentions of Jewish control of the media.

Mike is not a reliable source in this matter, as far as it goes, but "Nazi LARPing" is not even what he claimed Alaska was doing in the messages he sent where he delivered his ultimatum. He referenced the Nazi salute business as an example of a fuckup, obviously talking about Richard Spencer.



Vox Day has said things far edgier than anything Baked Alaska has said, and for much longer. But Vox Day isn't a business partner with Mike other than acting as his publisher. Mike has no power at all over VD and Mike knows VD is a dangerous guy to fuck around with. Of course he's not saying anything negative about him. There's nothing but downsides to doing so.

Finally the phrase "Jewish question" predates the Nazis by 40 years and has been used by many movements besides the Nazis. Just because the Nazis referenced it, does not mean it's now forever and always a Nazi thing. That's as ridiculous a claim as the one made by that fucktard who was saying the phoenix on the MAGA Mindset cover looked like a Nazi eagle symbol. Is Mike going to have to read himself out of his own brand because he used Nazi symbolism now?

Mike has more than six times the twitter followers Vox Day has, and roughly three times the web traffic.

[weambulance]

So?

[rw95]

I don't think Mike has anything to worry about pissing off Vox Day. Mike doesn't need Vox.

[weambulance]

I'll grant your claims about web traffic for the sake of argument, since I'm not sure if you're right. Twitter followers are a shit metric.

There's a rather enormous difference between "doesn't (really) need (but would not be doing as well without)" and "can piss off with impunity". It would be monumentally stupid for Mike to piss off Vox Day to the point that VD felt the need to take action against him.

It quickly turns into a "my dad could beat up your dad" argument if I go beyond saying that. But it should be obvious to anyone who knows much about the two men, their histories, audiences, and business ventures, that Mike is not going to pick a fight with Vox Day if he can avoid it.

[Cattle Rustler]

(12-28-2016 01:18 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

It quickly turns into a "my dad could beat up your dad" argument if I go beyond saying that. But it should be obvious to anyone who knows much about the two men, their histories, audiences, and business ventures, that Mike is not going to pick a fight with Vox Day if he can avoid it.

One time this kid talked shit to me, so I threatened to beat him up. Then he threatened to get his dad to beat me up....so I said my dad would beat his dad up. Then he said my dad is a stupid janitor who can't do shit without a monkey wrench. So I told him "yeah bu I'm sure he can beat the shit out of your dad using that monkey wrench."

Dude didn't say shit for the rest of the year.

[Wutang]

Vox Day has made a blog post about the beef. He clearly comes on the side that you do need to worry about PR and the image you give off - which clearly Trump cares about too considering that apparently one of the reasons he didn't pick John Bolton for Secretary of State was because he thought Bolton's mustache was unappealing. It's one thing to cuck and sell out. It's another to go full retard with autistic meltdown behavior in public which based on what I've seen of BakedAlaska was a real possibility.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/12/moths...flame.html

Quote:

If you want to publicly neuter yourself, go ahead. If you want to defecate all over yourself in the name of principle, courage, the Third Reich, or sheer bloodymindedness, that is absolutely your prerogative. Do as you see fit. But you should not expect anyone else to stand passively by you and allow you to splatter your self-destructive shit all over them.

This isn't about SJW attacks, where one minor violation of the Narrative results in a media-driven SJW witch hunt. This is about attention-seeking provocateurs failing to grasp the difference between social media memes and real-world public relations, and in doing so, creating both distractions and potential headaches for others.

Quote:

Anyone who is determined to play dancing monkey for the mainstream media and provide support for the media's false Narrative is of less than zero utility to the Alt-Right, to the Alt-Lite, and to the Trump administration, no matter who they are, no matter what they have done. So get serious and stop dancing.

[Sooth]

This is dumb because the right needs a stable brand like Mike (intellectual) AND it needs the edgy shitlord meme machines like Pizza Party Ben and Baked Alaska (artists) for social media propagation. We should be working in harmony!

Baked Alaska thinks Mike doesn't know or care about the JQ. Mike knows more about it than Baked Alaska does and Mike is working to combat it rather than shitpost and complain about it. Baked thinks Mike is a Jew sympathizer for his lack of engagement (in what Mike thinks is a tired conversation) but in reality Mike has been there done that and is working in a higher dimension. Mike is at least year ahead of everyone else.

You wanna know the best way to fight the Jews? Have babies, home school and red pill them while becoming influential in society. Exactly what Mike is doing.

The people who complain the loudest about the JQ don't have any solutions to the problem and will never be seen working towards results.

People in the "new right" who have been around the block know about the JQ and are able to dismiss the butt hurt and start doing work. Actual work, like hosting a ball - which is a genius way of casually ushering in traditional right ideology.

All the MAGA3X stuff was headed by Mike. MAGA3X was Mike trying to delegate his ideas. It seems he even put tens of thousands of dollars into it (and still this guy turns on him after he took his money).

Makes me think of Trump and Hope Hicks. His right hand media "man" is an absolute NOBODY online or in media. She strays far from limelight. Wise Trump.

[fokker]

^

[Gmac]

(12-27-2016 07:31 PM)Enoch Wrote:  

Just watched BA entire periscope. He comes across as a bit of whiny child who doesn't want to be part of the club now that is not "fun" anymore. I wonder if Mike offered a payoff for Baked to back out of the event gracefully.

Nope. BA had an opportunity last week in private group chats to save face. He even made nice with Mike at that time. Then over the last few days for whatever reason he ramped up the propaganda and controversial tweets. Enough that as a headliner in an event with extremely high optics right now would have forced any manager or leader to distance themselves from a guy as toxic, politically, as BA was becoming. I have no doubt Mike thought he'd been left no choice. Do I have to agree with his methods? No. But Mike has been the face of MAGA3X since the start and it was his choice to sever his relationship with him (both business and personal). His real name has also been out there for quite some time apparently. I think it would have all been better handled behind the scenes but again I don't think Mike felt he was left any choice once BA started posting private screencaps and going after him personally.

The guy has substance abuse issues among other major problems... nothing new. Take these links with a grain of salt but it will give you some more of the backstory (even I didn't know quite how far the rabbit hole went...):

https://thedirty.com/gossip/hollywood/mi...rity-scam/
https://avengersocial.wordpress.com/2016...conartist/ (8 months old)
https://avengersocial.wordpress.com/2016...onebusted/
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case...ough_et_al

[Sooth]

His name is still "Baked Alaska" and he says hes sober...

He says Mike is profiting off Trumps platform, when Mike was one of the OG Trump heavy hitters who went all in before anyone even knew who this Baked Alaska guy was. Mike made this guy.

Jack Posobiec is staying out of it wisely. Mike made him too.

Trump should slip Mike a few hundred G because he did a Master Card Priceless amount of work for the campaign.

What up Donald Trump Junior, I know you read here hah - send MikeCF a paypal unless you're gay.

[Aquiles_Baesta_Parada]

Grown ass men fighting on the internet...

Carry on!




by the way, Mike's getting destroyed on /pol

[Roosh]

[url=https://twitter.com/ThaRightStuff/status/814018045802856448][/url]

If you're going to be in a movement, you have to be the coolest and edgiest. As soon as you moderate, you'll be out-flanked. If you want to be a moderate, you must therefore bow out of the movement or at least stay out of their way.

[Sooth]

(12-28-2016 09:22 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

[url=https://twitter.com/ThaRightStuff/status/814018045802856448][/url]

If you're going to be in a movement, you have to be the coolest and edgiest. As soon as you moderate, you'll be out-flanked. If you want to be a moderate, you must therefore bow out of the movement or at least stay out of their way.

Also known as Girls High School Rules.

[Roosh]

The remaining problem for Mike is if one of his new right partners distances themselves from him. Vox Day didn't, but if PJW, Stefan Molyneaux, Bill Mitchell, Milo, or Lauren Southern do, then not only when it be a bad situation for Mike, but the entire new right will fracture and lose status points among the mob.

[rw95]

^Vox Day is not "new right."