In 2014, California voters passed Proposition 47, a ballot initiative, which recategorized certain non-violent felonies as misdemeanors.

Two years later, the state is now plagued by an organized band of roving shoplifters. Under the law, if you shoplift items bellow the $950 threshold, you can only be prosecuted with a misdemeanor. This means you are only liable for fine and face no jail time. If you fail to go to court for the crime, a misdemeanor warrant will be issued. This means the police can't arrest you, they can only ticket you.

I have heard that the shoplifters know the letter of the law and will recite it to lost prevention departments.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/561875...blamed-for

To be honest. I don't see much problem with this.
It more than likely cost much more to prosecute minor theft than the theft itself.

Of course..thieves will adapt and find ways to get under the fine..But that's life.

Maybe they could have the fine warrant bar you from government benefits.. Or garnish your wage till it's paid.

Swell, and small mom and pop stores have to pay the price for it.

California is part of Europe now?

I missed the memo.

Quote: (05-16-2016 10:03 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

To be honest. I don't see much problem with this.
It more than likely cost much more to prosecute minor theft than the theft itself.

Kinda misses the point. This signifies another waypoint in the gradual decline of social trust. If people have no disincentive to steal, many of them simply will steal with impunity. If business owners can't reasonably expect to not be stolen from, it's that much harder for them to deliver products and services. It seems we're becoming a collectivist society more and more everyday.

Gone are the days of chopping off hands. What a shame.

California is like another fucking planet... I now get idiots who dine and dash at my restaurant once or twice a month. Even with confirmed license plate numbers, CCTV footage clearly showing their faces and eyewitness testimonies of my staff and paying customers, police say it's a misdemeanor and they're not willing to follow up.

Just last month one of my employees got punched in the face by a customer because she said she was getting "bad service". Had my security guard detain her party while the police showed up and again, they said that unless they were there to actually witness the incident, it was technically a misdemeanor and to press charges, my employee would have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it into the courts. The customer essentially walked out scot-free even though she gave my server a black eye... what the fuck...

It's a sad state of affairs here...

"To be honest. I don't see much problem with this.
It more than likely cost much more to prosecute minor theft than the theft itself.

Of course..thieves will adapt and find ways to get under the fine..But that's life.

Maybe they could have the fine warrant bar you from government benefits.. Or garnish your wage till it's paid."

It costs more to prosecute ONE minor theft than the theft itself. But is that thief really going to stop there?
Or, since they know they won't be stopped by the police, will they go on and steal more stuff?

The reason this is a terrible idea should be obvious.

One of my biggest beefs with libtard states: the coddling and protection of criminals at the expense of law-abiding citizens.

Aside from the thousand other reasons to not live in a libtard state, this kind of bullshit can get you killed and/or tied up in court (criminal and civil) for years.

Fuck libtard states and their stupid fuckin self-destructive laws. Hopefully Trump gets elected soon and the libtards flee to Canada; God knows they ain't going to Mexico.

Make California Great Again.

Quote: (05-16-2016 10:03 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

To be honest. I don't see much problem with this.
It more than likely cost much more to prosecute minor theft than the theft itself.

What does that have to do with anything?

It's not the government that has lost money and therefore might be justified in doing a cost/benefit analysis- It's a private business that has lost money, and with the government not prosecuting and mandating restitution, as is common, the victim will have a more difficult and expensive time recovering the money.

I'm not getting some of the comments here. Stores do perfectly fine when people are caught shoplifting. The reason for this is that the legislature of some states allows for ridiculous civil penalties which are completely unrelated to any criminal sanctions which may be imposed. Large chains like Walmart, J.C. Penney, and Macy's hire national law firms to send out threatening letters to people who are charged with shoplifting. The amount which they demand is often several times the amount of the alleged loss. Many, or even most, people who receive those letters are unaware of how the system works and thinks they can buy themselves out of the whole problem by just paying that money to the law firm. They usually find out very soon after forking out the money that they still have to defend the criminal case. Meanwhile, the stores cash in when the people caught shoplifting send them the checks, usually for much more than the loss was and they were most likely able to resell the stuff which was stolen. Now, the store does lose a lot on the people who steal and who aren't caught, but that's a whole other issue entirely.

Also, I've never heard of a person who was sued by a store for not paying the ridiculous fine. Not once. I have heard of at least a thousand who (stupidly) coughed up the money.

^I'm curious as to why you think it is a bad thing that these criminals are sometimes paying the stores back, why it is "ridiculous", even if it's multiple times the amount.

I think that's great, thats the financial punishment that should be imposed universally in my perfect world. There should be a large financial risk in stealing from others, multiple times the value of what you're stealing. Otherwise what's the deterrent?

I might as well pop out for a free PS4, since I won't be criminally prosecuted nor forced to pay civilly. (I wouldn't of course; I'm not a piece of shit)

I see what you're saying that there will still be a criminal case on top of it, but they are suffering the consequences for their poor actions. Thousands of dollars in a civil action and a fine/jail term/community service in a criminal action, fine by me.

If they are getting "tricked", again, they only have themselves to blame. As you know, what the retailers are doing is perfectly legal and the person who receives the letter can inform them they will not be paying or that they prefer to dispute it in a court if the retailer wants to pursue it (which they won't).

I'm not getting the sympathy for this.

I think its a horrible idea in the context of the police not prosecuting misdemeanors due to lack of funding.

Many people seem to be arguing against different ideas of what a shoplifter is. If someone steals a loaf of bread, it's very different from a hardcore career shoplifter (as it was mentioned above about those who would recite the law when caught).

R_Niko is right about the decline in social trust, as is SamuelBRoberts about how its not just the one petty theft that's the problem, but the 1000 more per year that some shoplifters will happily commit without a deterrent.

We outsource our justice to the justice system in the community. Its a pillar of civilization and when its eroded people lose faith in the government and other public institutions. They also start thinking about how to take justice into their own hands.

Quote: (05-16-2016 11:47 PM)booshala Wrote:  

Just last month one of my employees got punched in the face by a customer because she said she was getting "bad service". Had my security guard detain her party while the police showed up and again, they said that unless they were there to actually witness the incident, it was technically a misdemeanor and to press charges, my employee would have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it into the courts. The customer essentially walked out scot-free even though she gave my server a black eye... what the fuck...

For instance, here whats to stop someone from asking the cops to leave, deleting the cctv tapes and beating the shit out of the customer in the back alley if cops don't prosecute assaults?

Sure, the cops might not turn a blind eye to blatant vigilantism now, but if it becomes clear that cops aren't solving problems then the community will decide to quietly take care of these things themselves. AnonymousBosch alluded to the effectiveness of this in small communities.

Eventually someone will deliver a horrific vigilante punishment which is directed at an innocent, and that will be the world Californians will all live in.

I work in retail on the weekends, any mother fucker that tries pulling that shit will get a beat down. I don't give a fuck about the liabilities.

You scare them half to death saying you conceal carry, you film everything and shame the fuck out of them.

We've had a cunt and her fat friend pull that shit on us, recorded everything, had one of my employees follow them as we got the cops involved.

Cops finally came, picked one of them up down the street and went to jail, the other one got let go, fat fuck blamed the tweaker cunt.

Shit like this pisses me off.

I wonder if it would be legal to up the video onto facebook, with their real names attached?

No sympathy for this bullshit. None of these people are too starving to afford a loaf of bread. They just want crap without having to do the work.

Quote: (05-17-2016 02:19 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

I wonder if it would be legal to up the video onto facebook, with their real names attached?

No sympathy for this bullshit. None of these people are too starving to afford a loaf of bread. They just want crap without having to do the work.

I've heard of small businesses creating shaming posters with the person's real name (if known via credit card or social media), and a photo of their face and of the crime. Can't be defamation because you have evidence of the crime.

If its a local community, other customers will recognise them and they suffer the social consequences.

You might have trouble getting this to stay on your facebook page due to Terms of Service re: doxxing, but they can't stop you making a 'Wall of Shame' pin up board.

Look no further than London's crime wave of un-opposed shop lifters if you want to know the future of such policies. You have shop lifters and pickpockets everywhere and they go on without ever being thrown into prison.

This prison thing was never meant to work. We need to bring back corporal punishment. Water boarding is cheap and effective.

Quote: (05-16-2016 10:44 PM)Snowplow Wrote:  

Gone are the days of chopping off hands. What a shame.

Chopping off hands? Nah man. The person who got stolen needs to have restitution. So that he can have his stuff back and more.

The stuff plus 10% of its value back to the owner. +Legal fees for the cost he gives the state in prosecuting him

If the thief don't have the stuff. He must be required to pay the full value+ 10% to the owner. And the above

If he cannot pay he must work and have his wages garnished until debt is repaid.

If he is unwilling to work. He is to be put to forced labor until debt is repaid. But this time pay for accommodation and amenities as well as his debt to the owner. As well as legal fees for what he cost the state.

Quote: (05-16-2016 10:30 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

California is part of Europe now?

I missed the memo.

California is to the rest of the US what Sweden is to the rest of Europe, a testing ground for progressive legislation.

Quote: (05-16-2016 10:44 PM)Snowplow Wrote:  

Gone are the days of chopping off hands. What a shame.

Pretty sure this will be reinstated in London & Germany in the next 10 years.

Quote: (05-17-2016 08:35 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Quote: (05-16-2016 10:44 PM)Snowplow Wrote:  

Gone are the days of chopping off hands. What a shame.

Chopping off hands? Nah man. The person who got stolen needs to have restitution. So that he can have his stuff back and more.

The stuff plus 10% of its value back to the owner. +Legal fees for the cost he gives the state in prosecuting him

If the thief don't have the stuff. He must be required to pay the full value+ 10% to the owner. And the above

If he cannot pay he must work and have his wages garnished until debt is repaid.

If he is unwilling to work. He is to be put to forced labor until debt is repaid. But this time pay for accommodation and amenities as well as his debt to the owner. As well as legal fees for what he cost the state.

The restitution will be their hand displayed for all to see on the wall with a sign to ward off other potential shoplifters.

But in all seriousness, I can back your idea of the item back or full price plus 10% and legal fees. In an ideal world that would be fair and just. The part I do not agree with is your forced labor idea. Who is going to take on that responsibility of forcing the work? If they can't pay with money, they pay with blood.

If I was a store owner I'd gladly front the cost of a machete. It's cheap, easy, and won't cost the tax payers a single dime if the criminal can't actually pay up. Forced labor would be an additional tax burden, unless the criminal is also paying for his gaurd, warden, housing, food, etc. They would never get free.

They should at least keep the felony charges for professional shoplifters who are part of gangs and who resell their loot on the grey market. They make up a good part of the merchandise losses.

Quote: (05-17-2016 02:10 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

I work in retail on the weekends, any mother fucker that tries pulling that shit will get a beat down. I don't give a fuck about the liabilities.

You scare them half to death saying you conceal carry, you film everything and shame the fuck out of them.

We've had a cunt and her fat friend pull that shit on us, recorded everything, had one of my employees follow them as we got the cops involved.

Cops finally came, picked one of them up down the street and went to jail, the other one got let go, fat fuck blamed the tweaker cunt.

Shit like this pisses me off.

I used to work retail and we were strictly informed never to put your hands on a shoplifter. We were supposed to inform the management who would call security. As security consisted of rent-a-cops, I don't know what they were supposed to do. Every time we saw a local cop car, we knew someone had been apprehended.
The one manager I knew who ran after a shoplifter was written up.

^^ Ha, I had a co-worker who tackled a shoplifter outside a store and recovered two large trash bags of merchandise. Management agreed to keep quiet about it but one assistant manager told HR and the guy got fired. The assistant manager got a financial reward for reporting the incident.