[Greek kamaki]

Germans used a ladder for national evaluation:
1.Germanics(Aryans the crop of earth had to dominate everyone else)
2.Mediteraneans(supposedely in decline great in the past but now weaker than Germanics)
3.Slavs(some were prone to Germanization like Czechs,some were fit for manual labor and could serve as slave workers for the Reich-Poles and some were so unfit for work they had to be exterminated-Russians)
4.Jews(although intellectually in same level with Germanics they had to be exterminated respresenting a danger)
5.Gypsies etc(for isolation-extermination not able to conduct productive work)
6.Blacks(for the Blacks there was debate if they belong to human race or they constitute an animal species.Hitler possibly did not even regard them as human at all).

[Excelsior]

(05-29-2012 04:22 AM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

On the contrary, that bullshit is put forward by the Russians. The reality is that the Ukrainian holocaust was the result of Stalin starving them, not German invasion. In fact, many Ukrainians fought alongside the Nazi's and Germany. It is patently untrue to suggest that Germany was responsible for the atrocities in the Ukraine, when Russian occupation of Ukraine was so severe to this day it splits the country in half. Russia was responsible for the Ukrainian holocaust, NOT GERMANY. There was an undeclared class system in the Ukraine up until not even 25 years ago!

Russia was responsible for the atrocities that took place in the Ukraine from 1941-1944...during which time the Germans had completely occupied the country?

Very well then-prove it. I want hard evidence that the information presented in the links above (and in the others placed in prior posts) is false.
Studies, documents, primary sources (direct accounts from citizens who lived at the time, for example). You say I'm full of shit-I ask you to prove it. Show me (don't tell me, you've done enough of that) how the Russians were in fact the primary drivers of this phenomena.

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You have never set foot in Ukraine. Please, dont turn this into another thread where you decided to lecture me on South Africa based on your web research and academic studies dude.

The thread has fuck-all to do with SA, so why would I do that?

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You want to understand all perspectives? Travel more and study their history in their own backyard, not from a safe distance where you entire point of view is dished up in a neat little package that suits your worldview.

Ad-hominem.

My distance does not invalidate my argument, especially when I have documentation to back it up.
If you insist I'm wrong, then prove I'm wrong. Logical fallacies won't do your work for you.

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Im not about the apologise for Nazi atrocities, but Ukrainian nationalism is a deep seated issue far more complex than you understand, and the history of Eastern Europe and Germany during the 20th is vastly more complex then the shit they serve up in our universities and on the History Channel.

Then please, enlighten us. You seem quite convinced, so I'm sure you have in your possession a multitude of legitimate documents/sources with which to back up your argument. If we're all so full of crap, then show us.

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Again, outright fabrications that are passed off as historical fact now.

Prove it.

I have documentation. Show me how false that documentation is. I'm not taking your word for it.

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The Nazis viewed even the Balkans, including the Greeks, as white.

Once again, irrelevant.

Not all whites were equal in Nazi eyes.

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The Russians, following the fall of Berlin, cooked up all manner of propaganda against the Reich to justify its occupation of Eastern Europe and the atrocities of its own war crimes. It raped its way across Eastern Europe once the Germans retreated to the point that the entire gene pool was shifted in only one generation.

That is an interesting theory. I now ask you for substantiation-please show me conclusively that the information I have presented up to this point is not factual, but rather a product of Russian propaganda.
I have provided documentation to back up my viewpoint-show me why it is false, and how exactly it can be traced back to Russian sources.
And when I say "show", I do not mean tell-again, you've done enough of that already.

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Germans had clear definitions of ethnicity, and regarded the blonde hair, blue eyes as ideal, but they never believed that other white Europeans were inferior. That is absolute rubbish, supported by detailed documentation of eugenics as a whole by Germany.

We have an abundance of Nazi leaders on record speaking of the inferiority of Slavic blood. We have the commissioner of occupied Ukraine on record declaring Ukrainians to be an inferior race. We have Heinrich Himmler openly calling for the extermination of Poles. We have Hitler on record multiple times espousing the inferiority of Russians and slavs in general (both in Mein Kampf and other accounts).
I provided all of these sources to you in my last post (review them if you'd like, the links are all still there), including an excellent peer reviewed essay that collected various Nazi viewpoints on Slavs quite comprehensively.

Please show me why these sources are rubbish worthy of quick dismissal, and how these leaders were misquoted. Furthermore, please show us this "detailed documentation of eugenics as a whole" by Germany that supposedly affirms your viewpoint.
I'll wait here.

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If I could make one suggestion, its that you reserve judging anyone until such time as you taken the time to understand all perspectives.

I only take the time to understand academic/historical perspectives that are based in fact and substantiated accordingly. When your perspective joins this group, I'll respect it.

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At the same time, understand that the history we are taught is not always fully representative or comprehensive in the slightest, and what you take as given fact is often nothing more than the victors account of the war at times too, or pre approved accounts of events later documented as fact.

Once again: prove it.

Show me the real story if you're so sure mine is false. I'm anxious to see it.

[speakeasy]

(05-29-2012 04:02 PM)Greek kamaki Wrote:  

Germans used a ladder for national evaluation:

6.Blacks(for the Blacks there was debate if they belong to human race or they constitute an animal species.Hitler possibly did not even regard them as human at all).

Believe it or not there were actually some blacks living in Nazi Germany. Here is a photo of a black kid wearing a swastika:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_peopl...zi_Germany

You'd have actually been better off being black than either Jew or Gypsy during Nazi Germany.

[Hooligan Harry]

Sorry Athlone, I have no desire to get into this with you again. You views are biased and spoon fed. You are a 20 year old kid trying to lecture me from your library fortress and the last thing I have time for is a mud slinging contest with an academic.

Believe what you want to believe.

[timmy21]

(05-29-2012 09:48 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Sorry Athlone, I have no desire to get into this with you again. You views are biased and spoon fed. You are a 20 year old kid trying to lecture me from your library fortress and the last thing I have time for is a mud slinging contest with an academic.

Believe what you want to believe.

I too think, that much of what you're saying is total nonsense, come to where I reside in East Ukraine and spout that crap, you won't make many friends.

[LifeBeginsAt40]

(05-29-2012 04:35 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Believe it or not there were actually some blacks living in Nazi Germany. Here is a photo of a black kid wearing a swastika:

Looks like a young Idi Amin

[Excelsior]

(05-29-2012 09:48 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Sorry Athlone, I have no desire to get into this with you again. You views are biased and spoon fed. You are a 20 year old kid trying to lecture me from your library fortress and the last thing I have time for is a mud slinging contest with an academic.

Believe what you want to believe.

You really don't have anything of substance to say, do you?

(05-29-2012 10:13 PM)timmy21 Wrote:  

I too think, that much of what you're saying is total nonsense, come to where I reside in East Ukraine and spout that crap, you won't make many friends.

1.


2.

[theoogabear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_Is_Illuminated pretty cool book related to what Athlone is talking about. it also addresses harry's point of view. the characters argue like you guys are.

[Hooligan Harry]

Let me know when you have actually left your borders bro. If you make it to South Africa or Ukraine one day, eventually, instead of just reading about it in a forum or in Time magazine, you let us know champ. You are nothing more than an armchair warrior until then, but I am sure the locals look forward to you correcting them on their own history one day.

20 years old, has all the answers. Its right there, in his textbooks and browser. He promises.

Like I say, I have no desire to get into some retarded academic slugfest when your entire perspective if one that has been GIVEN TO YOU and TAUGHT TO YOU by someone else. Its utterly pointless because you are biased, and you are biased because you are ideological beyond belief. You are judgmental in your ignorance, but you cant see it.

Come back to me when you have some life experience please. Or better yet, just keep posting links to whatever sources you like. I can get your opinion from there instead of having to wade through another well constructed thesis that one of your lecturers would be proud of.

@timmy

Would the conversation be in Ukrainian or Russian? If its in Russian, Im sure you have more than enough reason to explain to me how you liberated the Ukrainian peasants from yolk of German oppression. Right after you won the war, saved the Polish and impregnated half of Czechoslovakia and Berlin.

Russian savior is best savior!

[Excelsior]

(05-29-2012 11:39 PM)Hooligan Harry Wrote:  

Like I say, I have no desire to get into some retarded academic slugfest when your entire perspective if one that has been GIVEN TO YOU and TAUGHT TO YOU by someone else.

Yes, let's ignore all of the primary sources contained in the posts I made before.
Do you even know what a primary source is?

Of course you don't. If you did, you wouldn't make idiotic statements like this.

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If you make it to South Africa or Ukraine one day, eventually, instead of just reading about it in a forum or in Time magazine, you let us know champ. You are nothing more than an armchair warrior until then, but I am sure the locals look forward to you correcting them on their own history one day.

20 years old, has all the answers. Its right there, in his textbooks and browser. He promises.

Your entire counter argument boils down to this: "You are 20 years old and you have not been to South africa or Ukraine. Therefore, your argument is invalid."

You offer absolutely nothing beyond this and some additional ad-hominem, and expect everyone to just take your word for it ("I'm older than you, I'm right!"). Then you call me ignorant for calling you out on your BS?



The debate is done, bro, I don't have time for this. You go have a nice day.

[Hooligan Harry]

I am saying that you need to reserve judgement until you actually have the common sense to understand that history and people are incredibly complex. There are multiple points of view, and what we are spoon fed is not always completely accurate or correct either. You take this shit as gospel, when much of what is passed off as fact is seen as fabrication when you look at it form the other sides perspective.

Your entire point of view is based on nothing more than what you have been told by people who themselves have never seen the other sides perspective half the time. Yet this is sufficient for you to blanket entire communities and nations as you climb onto your politically correct high horse, while you condemn and criticize people you hardly know or even understand, using YOUR understanding of events to justify it all. You prop this disgusting trait up by then trying to launch into the equivilient of academic debate, expecting that this adds some sort of credibility to the fucked up position you took in the first place.

You might be educated, but you are a fool and a bigot. The sad thing is that you are so far up your own ass you cant even see it.

Are Ukrainians racist? Some are, some are not. The vast majority who you would consider racist are not racists. They are nationalists. While that may be offensive to us, we cant relate to it at all and its why we have so much difficulty understanding it without being judgmental. How can you when they have been fighting for their existence since Genghis Khan climbed on his horse? Im sure though you would have no problem forming a politically correct substantiation for the discrimination that is affirmative action though, without much effort at all. You could justify and demand tolerance for something you can relate to, but you are incapable of doing the same when its related to an issue you cannot relate to.

You dont want to understand because in your simple minded view, your ideological philosophy based on a 70 year old civil rights movement is fucking infallible. And with that comes the belief that your criticism and outright slander is not only acceptable and justified, its fair too. The levels of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty in this thinking disgust me to my core, but I have come to accept it as par for the course among many (but not all) academics.

You are everything you try so hard not to be. You are not progressive, you are borderline totalitarian in your ignorance, yet simply too arrogant or downright stupid to even understand that.

Maybe one day when you leave the campus you will spend a few years in the places you think you are so knowledgeable about. And for your sake I hope you take the time to understand the people instead of judging them as wantonly as you do. When you take the time to understand why, instead of trying to tell everyone why, you will see yourself for the bigot that you actually are.

Stop judging people. You have no right to, no matter how much you may think you know about them.

[Roosh]

I think it's best to lock this thread now.