[jasond]

GDP per capita (PPP) in the Budapest region of Hungary is 40,000 dollars per year. That is, the typical resident lives in a similar way as someone earning 40,000 USD in America. Clearly, the country is not poor. The Visegrad group countries are blessed in many ways due to low wealth inequality, and racial homogeneity..this produces greater social trust in daily life than can be found in many western countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OE...per_capita

[rudebwoy]

That is a lie, you would know that if you have been to the country.

They don't live like Americans.

Don't make me laugh.

[Tail Gunner]

(05-15-2019 05:45 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

That is a lie, you would know that if you have been to the country.

They don't live like Americans.

Don't make me laugh.

Actually, if you bother to examine the cited chart, it makes perfect sense. Someone living in the capital of Hungary, the most prosperous area of the country, is very likely to have a standard of living similar to someone living in Arkansas or West Virginia -- or rural areas of Germany or the UK.

[Klan Killer]

Lots of lols in the last two posts.

Moldova is a poor country, end stop. Bulgaria, Kosovo, Ukraine, Bosnia, and Macedonia are also poor countries. The economies of countries like Greece are straight up garbage. Yeah, sure, they're richer than extreme hell holes like Niger or Sierra Leone. Their economies are also pitifully weak in comparison to places like the US. No American would willingly move to these places for any reason other than pussy or maybe (huge maybe) as a place to retire. Even countries like India and China have drastically better career opportunities and economic growth than most of EE. India's GDP dwarfs Hungary's, but I guess according to your logic India isn't a poor country

The standard of living there is objectively much lower than it is in huge parts of Asia and the Middle East. This is evidenced by the fact that there is a ton of outward migration from EE and very little desire to immigrate there from other parts of the world

40,000 a year is peanuts in America, if Hungarians have the same standard of living as Americans who are making 40k a year then I pity them. Unless you live in some extremely rural area, 40k a year is barely enough to pay rent and survive in most places. In a high cost of living area it's below the poverty line. I don't think hillbillies of rural Appalachia exactly enjoy a great standard of living. If that's the best standard of living in Hungary I shudder to think about the worst.

No hate on EE, great people and I'd love to visit one day. But let's not hamster away the very real problems with the region.

[Tail Gunner]

(05-15-2019 06:06 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  

40,000 a year is peanuts in America, if Hungarians have the same standard of living as Americans who are making 40k a year then I pity them. Unless you live in some extremely rural area, 40k a year is barely enough to pay rent and survive in most places. In a high cost of living area it's below the poverty line. I don't think hillbillies of rural Appalachia exactly enjoy a great standard of living.

Did you join this forum just to troll? The median wage for workers in the United States in the first quarter of 2019 was $905 per week or $47,060 per year for a 40-hour workweek.

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/averag...rs-2060808

So, according to you the average wage earner in the U.S. is a hillbilly. WTF.

[Klan Killer]

Yeah and that's not exactly a good standard of living. 40k a year is peanuts. The median wage is dragged down by the millions of Americans basically living on the poverty line.

I mentioned hillbillies because you compared West Virginia to Hungary to argue that Hungary wasn't poor I'm sure plenty of those hillbillies make around 40k a year. Personally I wouldn't want to trade lives with them and neither would you.

[Polero]

I have little idea about Moldova, all I know the country its fucked. I have no idea if 40K in the US its okay or not, I guess its little in the cool cities but I know most people lead simple lives in BP, someone said they make 700 euros a month on average, with that figure in mind most people won't be able to have much fun, that's for sure.

[Tail Gunner]

(05-15-2019 06:19 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  

I'm sure plenty of those hillbillies make around 40k a year. Personally I wouldn't want to trade lives with them and neither would you.

You are correct. I would much rather live in Budapest and have a much higher standard of living in a national capital, which makes my point.

[Klan Killer]

(05-15-2019 06:24 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(05-15-2019 06:19 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  

I'm sure plenty of those hillbillies make around 40k a year. Personally I wouldn't want to trade lives with them and neither would you.

You are correct. I would much rather live in Budapest and have a much higher standard of living in a national capital, which makes my point.

Sure lol...and a lot of Hungarians would rather live outside of Hungary than enjoy the glorious standard of living granted by a 40k a year salary, which makes mine.

Dudes like you will go on and on about how these EE countries aren't actually poor, but that doesn't explain why Ukranian women would rather work as prostitutes in Turkey than remain in their home country.

[Tail Gunner]

(05-15-2019 06:41 PM)Klan Killer Wrote:  

Dudes like you will go on and on about how these EE countries aren't actually poor, but that doesn't explain why Ukranian women would rather work as prostitutes in Turkey than remain in their home country.

Your problem is that you refuse to consult a dictionary for the definition of "poor." Neither Hungarians nor Ukranians are poor. They simply wish to emigrate to Western Europe for a better life. It is as simple as that.

Are the Americans or the Europeans who travel to work in Dubai or the Emirates poor? No, they travel for a better life and for better financial opportunities.

Get the concept? It is not difficult to understand. It is the nature of economics at a very basic level. People flock to wherever their lives may improve.

[rudebwoy]

Klan Killer@

Some guys are delusional, people in Budapest aren't earning $40k per year on average.

Once you leave the city centre, the city is a mass of ugly apartment buildings left over from the communist days.

There are tons of EE living in shared accommodations in the UK, working minimum wage jobs.

Why would they live there, if they can make good money at home. Lol

[rudebwoy]

For the record, I liked the country and the people.

The hospitality was simply off the chain.

I rate Hungarian women highly.

[Guitarhappy420]

The Soviet Union invaded Hungary in 1956 and it was a Soviet Bloc country until the early 1990's (fall of Soviet Union Dec 31, 1991). It now reflects being part of European Union.

I went to high school in the early 1960's with a couple of girls who were basically Hungarian refugees. Extremely smart, focused, "traditionally" built. Both had more moustache than I had at the time. The one in my AP classes wanted to be a nuclear physicist in 10th grade.

The brain drain of the Soviet era and the post Soviet integration into Europe maybe explain a lot about Hungary's current situation.

[Tail Gunner]

(05-15-2019 09:33 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

people in Budapest aren't earning $40k per year on average.

You are correct about that. The problem in such debates is that no one bothers to read the materials that people post. If you or Klan Man had bothered to read the Wikipedia page cited by jasond, you would have seen that the comparison between countries is made in "international dollars," which is a tool used by economists to compare the economies of countries with different currencies. I was waiting to see if anyone would catch this fact but, as usual, people would rather argue than learn -- to the point of ignoring what members of the other side of the debate have posted.

Quote:

The Geary–Khamis dollar, more commonly known as the international dollar (Int'l. dollar or Intl. dollar, abbreviation: Int'l$., Intl$., Int$, G-K$ or GK$), is a hypothetical unit of currency that has the same purchasing power parity that the U.S. dollar had in the United States at a given point in time.[1][2] It is widely used in economics and financial statistics for various purposes, most notably to determine and compare the purchasing power parity and gross domestic product of various countries and markets. The year 1990 or 2000 is often used as a benchmark year for comparisons that run through time. The unit is often abbreviated e.g. 2000 US dollar (if the benchmark year is 2000) or 2000 Int'l$.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geary%E2%8...mis_dollar

So, you are correct that people living in Budapest do not make an average of $40,000 USD (because "international dollars" are based on year 2000 USD). On the other hand, the OECD's economic analysis tool (posted by jasond) very clearly proves that the average income in Budapest is very similar to the average income in Arkansas or West Virginia. That is a fact. So, unless you believe that the average person in Arkansas or West Virginia is poor, which is objectively not the case, the average person living in Budapest is also not poor. You need to realize that the word "poor" is defined by the dictionary; it is not subject to anyone's subjective whims.

[Klan Killer]

(05-15-2019 09:33 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Klan Killer@

Some guys are delusional, people in Budapest aren't earning $40k per year on average.

Once you leave the city centre, the city is a mass of ugly apartment buildings left over from the communist days.

There are tons of EE living in shared accommodations in the UK, working minimum wage jobs.

Why would they live there, if they can make good money at home. Lol

Pretty much this, you don't flee a country en masse if it's a great place to be.

Nothing against Hungarians or other EE people. My best friend as a kid was Hungarian and I would love to visit. But my point wasn't even that Hungary is some kind of a shit hole, it's that large parts of EE are poor as fuck and that none of us would want to live there for any reason beyond pussy.

Poverty is pretty relative, West Virginia or Mississippi are poor as shit compared to a place like California. Say what you will about the street shitters in SF or the liberalism, but California's economy and job market are leaps and bounds ahead of places like WV. WV is a better place to live than Liberia, but it's still dirt poor compared to many other parts of the world. I don't know a single person who would want to leave the Bay Area, London, Hong Kong, or Tokyo and move to West Virginia.

Yeah places like Niger are objectively poor and countries like Saudi are objectively rich, but that doesn't mean that countries like Moldova aren't dirt poor compared to most places where RVF'ers live. Nor would any of you live there if given the choice.

[nomadbrah]

You guys are proving our point.

That Hungaria, despite being a relatively poor country, is clean, safe and pleasant to live in.

It proves exactly the point that wealth isn't necessary to live like civilized human beings. It disproves the marxist lie that townships and crime are a result of poverty.

Hungarians are in fact rather "poor", yet they are not POOR in a western sense. They live in a safe, clean and emphatic society, without succumbing to drugs, violence and societal breakdown.

Why don't you ask yourself how that is? Why can Hungarians maintain such as an orderly society with so little money? Why can't other groups?

[Que enspastic]

I used to live in the UK where the market town was white, middle class, civilised and prosperous and the “new town” (post-1947 act) nearby was white minority, underclass, trash everywhere, dogshit, broken windows.

I was accustomed to thinking money brings better behaviour but it’s more likely the other way around where those who are disciplined and considerate end up earning more.

Budapest has changed my thinking as people who are poorer than UK underclass have the same behaviours as more affluent middle class communities in the West.

The next question becomes why aren’t they rewarded economically in Budapest for being a productive and intelligent set of people and that article I posted above on wages in Central and Eastern Europe is instructive on that point.

[nomadbrah]

^ This is actually not that difficult to explain.

Religion and culture is to the lower classes, what nationalism is to the elites. That is, they provided a framework to keep the worst impulses of people in check. That's why it's always the lower classes who gets hit the hardest when morals loosen. Nationalism shames elites for being selfish and cosmpolitan.

Orban, who is really a Putinist, has instituted both these, religion for the masses, nationalism for the elites, combined with an open market. That's Putinism, Edorganism, Orbanism, Salvinism.

[Que enspastic]

I don’t think that’s a sufficient explanation

40% of Czechs consider themselves atheist; 40% are Roman Catholics 13% are undecided, remainining % are other religions

Very irreligious but similar economic profile as Hungary and similar reputation for hard work while being depressed at life.

Romania is more religious and more superstitious than Hungary but has a worse reputation for behaviour

I’m interested in economically whether Central and Eastern Europe can catch up to Western Europe - what would it take

[nomadbrah]

(05-16-2019 07:04 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

I don’t think that’s a sufficient explanation

40% of Czechs consider themselves atheist; 40% are Roman Catholics 13% are undecided, remainining % are other religions

I'm not talking about superficial displays of religiosity, which is more of a "sudlander" thing.

I'm talking about INSIDE, is there a voice saying "behave yourself", not for fear or shame, but for knowing that is the right thing to do.

Romania is also not the same ethnic makeup as Hungary, for one they have a HUGE gypsy population of probably 10%. There are also Bulgarians, who are turkic influenced. In addition, Romanians are closer to mediteranean people (that's their name "Romans"). Med cultures all have less public order and less trust societies.

Hungary is ethnically very similar to Czech, Poles, Slovaks etc, who in turn are genetically and culturally very similar to Austrians and East Germans. Czechs are the "non-western" people most closely related to Germans.

As for catching up, I don't know, that is a difficult question to answer. There are economic explanations and cultural, ethnic explanations. I would think they could use some Germanic immigration, since Germanics get shit done. Keep in mind as much as 2 million Germans lived in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia previous to WW1. Germans have been in that region for 1000 years.

This also explains the success of various high performing areas in other Med countries, such as Northern Italy: Lombardy ~ Longo-Bards ~ Long Beards ~ Germanics. Similar to places like Catalonia and Galicia, with Visigoth heritage, which is also among the highest performing Spanish regions.

That's then my answer, bring in the Nords to impregnate the local women and generate business.

[Que enspastic]

Should add the Germanic Saxon Transylvania region of Romania also stunning and clean - Brasov, Sibiu and Cluj also known as Kronstadt, Hermannstadt and Klausenburg

Wrocław in Poland also know as Breslau

Even after you kick out the Germans their influence remains powerful on the cities they built

[rudebwoy]

@que enspastic

The UK has a large white underclass population, so not sure what you are talking about and what this has to do with Hungary.

@Tail Gunner

It's obvious you haven't visited or spent anytime in Hungary. I don't need to read some link to know about the place.

I guess we all have different definitions to the word poor.

I've posed the question to Hungarians living abroad, as to why they don't return. They looked at me like I was a retard.

[Que enspastic]

@rudebhoy I was making comparisons, surely it’s there in the post


Here’s some interesting facts

1. According to a report by the Hungarian Central Statistical Office, about half of people between the ages 19 and 30 would like to work abroad.

2. As housing prices have soared, more families are accumulating debt. Housing prices have increased by an average of 31 percent over the past three years. The only European country with more quickly rising real estate prices is Sweden.

3. Almost half of Hungarians–44 percent–cannot afford basic resources. This compares with an average of 19 percent across the EU.

4. For every 1,000 Hungarian children, 6.1 die before their fifth birthday, according to a report by the Save the Children Foundation. This is above the EU average as well as the rates in countries such as Libya, Bulgaria, Cuba and Macedonia.

Since malnutrition is contributing significantly to this abnormally high statistic and hunger is a taboo subject in Hungary, the Save the Children Foundation has started an initiative to provide vitamins, baby formula and medicine to children and expecting mothers

[rudebwoy]

^ Thanks for proving the point, to whether they are a poor or not.

#1 - I have stated that in a previous post.

#3 - This is basically what I saw when I stayed with a local, not in the "tourist" area.

[Tail Gunner]

(05-16-2019 09:58 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^ Thanks for proving the point, to whether they are a poor or not.

The post does not prove anything, unless he provides web links where people can review the information behind these conclusions. "about half of people between the ages 19 and 30 would like to work abroad." Why? Because they seek a better life -- or because they are poor?

(05-16-2019 09:58 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

#1 - I have stated that in a previous post.

As I have repeatedly stated, people move because they want a (comparatively) better life and better financial opportunities, not necessarily because they are poor. Nothing cited in #1 contradicts that point, which is why providing a web link might be helpful. I am perfectly content to go wherever the data leads me -- but there needs to be data to review. You seem content to read your own interpretations into mere unexplained conclusions.

The State of California lost one million residents to domestic migration in the past ten years -- about 2.5 percent of its total population. Residents left to escape high taxation and over-regulation, by moving to States with more business friendly and family friendly climates. These people moved because they wanted a (comparatively) better life, better financial opportunities, or better value for their money, not because they were poor.