[The_e_man]

Hello gents,
Some of you may remember me from my 100 lay thread: thread-60113.html
Basically, I hit 100 lays and the majority of it was from night game cold approach. I would have the odd bang from Tinder here and there but for the most part all my meat and potatoes was from night game.
I stopped updating / counting my notch count since hitting 100. That was almost 2 years ago back in fall of 2016. If i were to take a guess I'd say I'm somewhere in the neighbourhood of 200 lays, possibly more.

The funny thing is this: the next 100 or so lays came almost exclusively from Tinder. I have had only the odd night game cold approach lay here and there.

I have been out night gaming since I turned 18 years old (technically I even went when I was 17 using my older brothers passport to get into bars and clubs). This was circa 2011 and so so much has changed. Night clubs seem to be dying. Many are closing down or struggling to keep a basic level of patronage on a given weekend night. Some are desperately trying to rebrand as something new and cool but it seems almost every venue is turning into a sinking ship. There used to be way more groups of girls, or two sets of girls going out looking to have a good time and get laid. Now, it's mostly mixed sets of friends going out to celebrate a friends birthday or chill with other mutual friends and not be bothered by any "random creepers." Not saying that dynamic didn't exist before, but it just seems much more rampant now. Girls are not open to being chatted up by strangers. Their "curve game strong" as they like to brag to their friends. Curving guys harshly or in a try-hard witty way seems to be what this girls want to do in front of their friends. There's simply less girls going out with the purpose of finding dick.
And this leads to Tinder. I think Tinder is what has changed night game, for better or for worse. If a girl wants dick, it can be delivered to her front door a la "skip the dishes." In this case it's "skip getting dressed and going out and finding a ride to the club and waiting in line and paying cover etc etc." The convenience factor is huge. So the need for dick is easily satiated and she has many options. Going out to clubs to find dick is just antiquated. Clubs are now for special events like birthdays and whatnot. Not a weekly place to got to get stretched out by a new stranger. Tinder is much better for that.

So anyways, I've been grinding Tinder hard, putting my best pictures up. Paying for Tinder Gold so I don't have to bother swiping through much people. I get about 2-8 new girls liking me a day, of which maybe 3-4 I'll like back. Out of 4 matches maybe 1 will reply. Out of maybe 5 girls that reply maybe 1 of them will end up legit talking to me. From there I just chat and flirt and like lightly sext with them until we decide it's time to meet up. I am averaging 2-5 new lays a month and it's almost ALL from Tinder. Odd night game pull or social circle pull here and there but nothing notable at all numbers wise. That being said, I have had weeks where I would absolutely grind hard on tinder and put in full effort on every match. On my fall reading week break in November of 2017 I banged 5 new tinder girls over a 9 day period.

What are your thoughts on the way things are going, gents?
Here's my thoughts:

- The best looking guys are going to reap the benefits . 80:20 rule will become closer to 95:5 rule. Think about it, your ELO score is a snowball effect. The higher your ELO, the more sooner you will be shown to girls and to hotter girls, which leads to more right swipes from them further raising your ELO. Positive feedback loop for the top X% of guys while everyone else gets a back seat. This is ideal for women as they have to swipe through less losers (i.e. average guy that is not Chad Thundercock).

- Bars will see sinking patronage and will most be a bottle service / events type ordeal. The other uses of bars or night clubs are taken care of quite nicely by Tinder.

- Your dating / sex life is going to be controlled by an app (or more precisely, an app's algorithm). That can be scary. Especially if Tinder starts to have an agenda and wants to punish certain sorts of users. A bad ELO score can be the modern day death sentence similar to having a bad credit score. The one answer to this is day game. However I am a huge pussy when it comes to day game and I personally don't like harassing people going about their day (if they aren't interested in you, it's mildly harassing / annoying) and I don't like panhandling the streets for pussy. That last comment is going to get me some flak but it has a tiny bit of truth to it. Again, I will admit a big portion of it though is just that I am a giant pussy and I don't like approaching in day time. I have no issue doing it in a bar or nightclub where it's socially acceptable to do so.

- Pussy inequality will grow. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Tinder is really going to speed things up in that realm, as it already has quite a bit.

[ksbms]

(07-12-2018 12:30 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

The funny thing is this: the next 100 or so lays came almost exclusively from Tinder. I have had only the odd night game cold approach lay here and there.

You've just answered your very own question, right there, in the opening lines.

[BadKing]

Tinder has lower quality than the open hunt, both in terms of physical and mental qualities.

You’re guaranteed to date significantly down, and the killer for me; it’s unromantic to an extreme. Prostitution, with the exchange of your superior looks for an inferior looking, horny girl. No challenge, no fun, no romance.

The fun in game is to hunt a woman of superior looks to your own. Then you have to use your charm, and that’s what’s rewarding.

Day game works great in parks, and night game while dying in the clubs has never been more alive in trendy bars.

Find the trendy bars.

I will also add that true good looking girls are not on tinder (don’t last very long) because they get bored of the predictability of it. They know they’ll get a match on all right swipes.

Girls are on tinder to either promote their Instagram, or because it’s addictive and their mental health isn’t doing so good. It’s basically for the bottom feeders—both men and women.

So you saying that Chads will get all the pussy...the real ones are not on tinder, they’re getting it in real life.

[True Balla]

I completely agree with you, being a guy using tinder since 2013, and grandfathered into the low-cost payment plans. However, all my best relationships and flings have been with women I have met outside of tinder. Also, the numbers of matches and lays have been declining for me, although my quality has been going up since I only swipe 7+'s now.

[Supreme4ever]

What's Tinder....

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 02:12 PM)BadKing Wrote:  

Tinder has lower quality than the open hunt, both in terms of physical and mental qualities.

You’re guaranteed to date significantly down, and the killer for me; it’s unromantic to an extreme. Prostitution, with the exchange of your superior looks for an inferior looking, horny girl. No challenge, no fun, no romance.

The fun in game is to hunt a woman of superior looks to your own. Then you have to use your charm, and that’s what’s rewarding.

Day game works great in parks, and night game while dying in the clubs has never been more alive in trendy bars.

Find the trendy bars.

I will also add that true good looking girls are not on tinder (don’t last very long) because they get bored of the predictability of it. They know they’ll get a match on all right swipes.

Girls are on tinder to either promote their Instagram, or because it’s addictive and their mental health isn’t doing so good. It’s basically for the bottom feeders—both men and women.

So you saying that Chads will get all the pussy...the real ones are not on tinder, they’re getting it in real life.

Interesting points. I definitely agree that Tinder will not attract the cream of the crop. But even the top shelf women will install Tinder even just to check it out ... and soon be repulsed by the spam she will receive. It's up to us to be lucky enough to match them before they get bored of the app.
Without a doubt, I think the state of game in the future will require a man being high value as possible, having a really solid social circle full of sexy girls, going to all the right high-end events, etc.
Wearing fuzzy boots and running opinion openers in a crowded nightclub just wont cut it anymore the way it seems it used to back in the early 2000's.

[kaotic]

Dating apps are main stream and here to stay, obviously the scale is going to slide past the 80/20 rule.

Guys need to approach, guys need to keep their game sharp, either playing old man game, go indirect, to direct.

Talk to mixed groups, talk to groups of girls, shit talk to semi attractive girls to warm up, and talk to girls everywhere you can.

This is coming from a guy who kills it online (and burns on occasion) - you have to use it or lose it.

The advantage being - more women to approach for yourself.

Just don't be that autistic creepy sperg who fucks it all up for the rest of us.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 06:08 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Just don't be that autistic creepy sperg who fucks it all up for the rest of us.

I've noticed this phenomenon is becoming worse and worse. Guys are going autistic kamikaze style and it's fucking everything up. Any person that approaches a girl will be dealing with a high guard up.

[Balkan]

Thanks for starting this thread. Agree with most everything being said especially with online going past 80:20. For some places, like LA, seems to be much tighter.

Just curious, out of 100 matches, how many translate to dates/bangs?
Is your overall quality similar to your nightgame days?

[asdfk]

Online dating is creating barriers to entry for men.

- Dudes with high SMV can multitask. They can chat with multiple bitches at the same time. Can't do that in a club. Once he picked a bitch the others will go on look for other men.

- Dudes with low SMV are not allowed to open on Tinder. They have to be matched e.g. pre-approved by the bitch in question.
In a club as a low SMV dude, you can just start talking and seduce her. Imagine walking up to a bitch in a club and presenting her with a paper that says: "Based on how I look, am I allowed to make eye contact and/or talk to you?" No low SMV dude is going to get laid, it's bad game, but this is what Tinder effectively is. It's giving women the opportunity to pre-approve dudes before they approach.

Those two are the most important in my eyes. There is more though.

- No intoxication or sleep deprivation on tinder. In a club everybody is drinking a little and/or sleep deprived. The latter impairs decision making even more then the former. That ugly dude that's chatting her up in the club might feel fuckable to her at 3 AM and after 3 drinks when she a little bit horny so she bangs him behind a dumpster. Not so much if she is presented with his pic at 8 PM when she's sober and wide awake.

- Tinder gives women accurate information on how available men are to her. She might bang a low SMV dude from a club just because she's horny and he is the hottest she can get in that room. But on Tinder there are so many thirsty dudes that are available to her that "getting lucky" as a low SMV dude won't happen.

Have you looked at a bitches Tinder recently? A chubby non-white girl showed me her matches and she had 100+ matches. You should have seen her swipe.

The messages these guys send are embarrassing beyond belief. The thirst in the US is incredible. There is no way to compete, except by:
- increasing your legitimate SMV
- cheating the system e.g. inflating SMV in your profile

I believe the second is the next step in "game". The barriers to entry are getting higher and higher so more and more dudes will start cheating the system.

[kaotic]

(07-12-2018 06:16 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

(07-12-2018 06:08 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Just don't be that autistic creepy sperg who fucks it all up for the rest of us.

I've noticed this phenomenon is becoming worse and worse. Guys are going autistic kamikaze style and it's fucking everything up. Any person that approaches a girl will be dealing with a high guard up.

Bingo, exactly what I'm getting at.

I have this conversation with girls that I match and meet with.

I talk about how most guys are pussies nowadays and don't approach (I'm partially guilty) and dudes act like females nowadays and vice versa.

The response from girls usually is that - guys don't approach them, or they haven't been approached in awhile.

Occasionally they've had a creepy guy.

The biggest factor girls have mentioned is a guy being funny and obviously attractive on approach.

I use a little story with this:

"Well take me for example, you're cute and if you were walking out of a starbucks, I'd say some stupid shit like, hey where's the nearest starbucks with a grin on my face" -the girl laughs- "see you'd laugh, and I'd say I'm just fucking with you and thought you were cute and wanted to get your number"

Almost all girls agreed that if I had done this, it was a sure fire way to get numbers.

It could be player fatigue or burnout, but I'm honestly getting tired of apps, I've had so many bangs from them, plus I've focused on quality over quantity which has greatly reduced my pipeline.

[DimeBait]

Very interesting.
My club days are long behind me because (1) I'm too old for that shit, (2) don't drink and (3) its waaay too fucking loud to even decipher more than three syllable words in clubs nowadays. Most, if not all of my recent bangs have been from online, but it's unfulfilling and i'm often left feeling like a man-whore who banged a bish not worth my time and dick just because I was horny as BadKing eluded to.

[LexisNexis]

I find myself reminded of an old user named Mixx

[Jack Gignac]

yeah this matches my evolution.

night game 2010-2012 = primary source of lays

day game 2013-2015 = = primary source of lays

online 2016-2018 = primary source of lays

I still do a little bit of everything though just in case once stream goes under.

i wonder what the next method will be because as I've seen it changes every 3 years. I've fiended the stuff can't imagine how rough it'd be for the average dude.

[Bacchus]

(07-12-2018 02:12 PM)BadKing Wrote:  

Tinder has lower quality than the open hunt, both in terms of physical and mental qualities.

You’re guaranteed to date significantly down, and the killer for me

That's the truth. Online dating (and Tinder is really just the most unfiltered version of it) means that you will be dating down. Bitches have too many options, so they can be very choosy based only on your picture. Even the headcases, single moms, and fatties can pick from 100's of options. Meanwhile, you're "killing it" if you can convert 20 matches into one date.

C'mon man, you can do better!

The night has its share of challenges, but it offers better rewards. But even Ed fucking Sheeran recognizes the superiority of bars over clubs. Go somewhere you can actually talk to the girls. A place without birthday parties, bachelorette parties, mixed sets of about 15 people.

Besides, you don't want to entirely depend on one source of pussy. That makes you fragile, as Taleb would put it. You need to diversify your pussy streams.

[Jack Gignac]

(07-12-2018 11:15 PM)Bacchus Wrote:  

(07-12-2018 02:12 PM)BadKing Wrote:  

Tinder has lower quality than the open hunt, both in terms of physical and mental qualities.

You’re guaranteed to date significantly down, and the killer for me

That's the truth. Online dating (and Tinder is really just the most unfiltered version of it) means that you will be dating down. Bitches have too many options, so they can be very choosy based only on your picture. Even the headcases, single moms, and fatties can pick from 100's of options. Meanwhile, you're "killing it" if you can convert 20 matches into one date.

C'mon man, you can do better!

The night has its share of challenges, but it offers better rewards. But even Ed fucking Sheeran recognizes the superiority of bars over clubs. Go somewhere you can actually talk to the girls. A place without birthday parties, bachelorette parties, mixed sets of about 15 people.

Besides, you don't want to entirely depend on one source of pussy. That makes you fragile, as Taleb would put it. You need to diversify your pussy streams.

this used to be true for me but I pretty much get the same quality from all styles of game. just with tinder I also get ugly girls cause it's so easy. in real life I wouldn't bother approaching anything less than an 8...

I picked up a 9 last week from daygame and she was indeed on bumble when I asked. She didn't swipe right on me though but there was another girl I tried to daygame and I couldn't hook her but I banged her via tinder. It's funny got two touches on both and they both closed via opposite methods.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 06:22 PM)Balkan Wrote:  

Thanks for starting this thread. Agree with most everything being said especially with online going past 80:20. For some places, like LA, seems to be much tighter.

Just curious, out of 100 matches, how many translate to dates/bangs?
Is your overall quality similar to your nightgame days?

I have not compiled a spreadsheet and properly tracked down my data, as a result I will be giving an estimate off the top of my head, which is prone to a lot of error and subconscious biases. Anyways, I would say only about 20% of my matches actually reply to me saying "hey."
Of the girls that reply to me, another fraction (2/5 or so) will reply past the first 2-3 replies before not replying anymore.
BUT, here is where things get optimistic: if a girl makes it through those initial 2-3 replies of inane boring small talk, then I am highly likely to eventually meet up and bang. Like 80% of those, if not higher.

Overall quality I would say is similar to nightgame. Mostly 6's and 7's (in my scale, 5 is average bell curve and 6 and 7 is slightly cuter than average but not super hot). A few 8's and 9's sprinkled in but I can't manage to retain them for more than 1 bang or maybe a few weeks. My night game issues seem to translate perfectly well into tinder. Lots of 6's and 7's and they wanna stick around, but only a small occasional trinkling of 8's and 9's that I can't seem to keep around.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 06:28 PM)asdfk Wrote:  

Online dating is creating barriers to entry for men.

- Dudes with high SMV can multitask. They can chat with multiple bitches at the same time. Can't do that in a club. Once he picked a bitch the others will go on look for other men.

- Dudes with low SMV are not allowed to open on Tinder. They have to be matched e.g. pre-approved by the bitch in question.
In a club as a low SMV dude, you can just start talking and seduce her. Imagine walking up to a bitch in a club and presenting her with a paper that says: "Based on how I look, am I allowed to make eye contact and/or talk to you?" No low SMV dude is going to get laid, it's bad game, but this is what Tinder effectively is. It's giving women the opportunity to pre-approve dudes before they approach.

Those two are the most important in my eyes. There is more though.

- No intoxication or sleep deprivation on tinder. In a club everybody is drinking a little and/or sleep deprived. The latter impairs decision making even more then the former. That ugly dude that's chatting her up in the club might feel fuckable to her at 3 AM and after 3 drinks when she a little bit horny so she bangs him behind a dumpster. Not so much if she is presented with his pic at 8 PM when she's sober and wide awake.

- Tinder gives women accurate information on how available men are to her. She might bang a low SMV dude from a club just because she's horny and he is the hottest she can get in that room. But on Tinder there are so many thirsty dudes that are available to her that "getting lucky" as a low SMV dude won't happen.

Have you looked at a bitches Tinder recently? A chubby non-white girl showed me her matches and she had 100+ matches. You should have seen her swipe.

The messages these guys send are embarrassing beyond belief. The thirst in the US is incredible. There is no way to compete, except by:
- increasing your legitimate SMV
- cheating the system e.g. inflating SMV in your profile

I believe the second is the next step in "game". The barriers to entry are getting higher and higher so more and more dudes will start cheating the system.

You have a very bitter tone to you but I can't help but agree with you regardless.
I especially agree with your point that high SMV guys can multitask - and they can do it VERY well. These guys have so many girls on the go it would make your average dude's head spin. I am friends with a lot of high SMV "naturals" (deep down very beta guys but that's a huge discussion for another day that deals with the whole looks vs game debate nobody likes to get into). And these guys spin a crazy amount of really hot plates.
I really wish all of you could see how strong the wealth inequality in the dating realm is.
You have the top X% swimming in a mountain of gold, and the bottom Y% begging for the tiniest drop of rain in the dessert.

I disagree with your point about girls being desperate at 3AM. Sure, they can be tired and horny and drunk, but they still have 20 different guys on their iPhone waiting to pick them up on a moments notice. Sure, she can have a temporary lapse of judgement and take home a low-SMV man that gamed her well, but you don't want to be pulling girls due to lapses of judgement, that's just not high calibre game.

Lastly, I agree that a chubby average looking girl can easily have 100+ unread notifications from the app within a days time. That's common knowledge on this forum. It's still a disgusting fact, and it is the result of supply and demand.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 06:29 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

It could be player fatigue or burnout, but I'm honestly getting tired of apps, I've had so many bangs from them, plus I've focused on quality over quantity which has greatly reduced my pipeline.

Likely player fatigue, the shift of focus from quantity over to quality is a (positive and healthy) side effect of such fatigue.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 06:32 PM)DimeBait Wrote:  

Very interesting.
My club days are long behind me because (1) I'm too old for that shit, (2) don't drink and (3) its waaay too fucking loud to even decipher more than three syllable words in clubs nowadays. Most, if not all of my recent bangs have been from online, but it's unfulfilling and i'm often left feeling like a man-whore who banged a bish not worth my time and dick just because I was horny as BadKing eluded to.

There's definitely something raw and primal about a cold approach bang that Tinder can never give me. The way my heart pounds, the feeling of conquest and satisfaction. That temporary feeling of giving your ego everything it could ever ask for. It's why us crazy bastards endure such bullshit to stay in the game.
I'd like to switch back over to cold approach, but Tinder is just too easy in comparison. And I'm starting to get too old for clubs myself. Staying up till 3am chasing pussy takes a toll on my health in ways it didn't when I was 18.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 11:08 PM)Jack Gignac Wrote:  

yeah this matches my evolution.

night game 2010-2012 = primary source of lays

day game 2013-2015 = = primary source of lays

online 2016-2018 = primary source of lays

I still do a little bit of everything though just in case once stream goes under.

i wonder what the next method will be because as I've seen it changes every 3 years. I've fiended the stuff can't imagine how rough it'd be for the average dude.

I think the change to online is here to stay (unfortunately). I would love to see a resurgence of the golden era of nightgame. Most guys are such pussies that it would be a total cakewalk. Sure, mr. pretty boy can swipe right on his couch, but can he walk up to a girl at the club?

[Jack Gignac]

(07-12-2018 11:59 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

(07-12-2018 06:29 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

It could be player fatigue or burnout, but I'm honestly getting tired of apps, I've had so many bangs from them, plus I've focused on quality over quantity which has greatly reduced my pipeline.

Likely player fatigue, the shift of focus from quantity over to quality is a (positive and healthy) side effect of such fatigue.

and by quality I think for player fatigue it's not necessarily the hottest. but the perfect ratio for YOU for me that's a highly compliant 8.5 friends with benefits. When I go above 8.5 their smv is too high so the relationship is too volatile. they simply have too many options. Not that I haven't done it before.

[The_e_man]

(07-12-2018 11:15 PM)Bacchus Wrote:  

Besides, you don't want to entirely depend on one source of pussy. That makes you fragile, as Taleb would put it. You need to diversify your pussy streams.

True, always good to have multiple streams of income. I need to diversify.
Tinder and online should purely be a passive income stream, not the only thing keeping me alive.

[EndsExpect]

(07-12-2018 02:12 PM)BadKing Wrote:  

Tinder has lower quality than the open hunt, both in terms of physical and mental qualities.
You’re guaranteed to date significantly down, and the killer for me; it’s unromantic to an extreme.

I'm dating up on Tinder. I'm basically the male version of a SIF.

However, it's true that even I can score better during daygame... or at trendy bars.

[Balkan]

(07-12-2018 11:47 PM)The_e_man Wrote:  

(07-12-2018 06:22 PM)Balkan Wrote:  

Thanks for starting this thread. Agree with most everything being said especially with online going past 80:20. For some places, like LA, seems to be much tighter.

Just curious, out of 100 matches, how many translate to dates/bangs?
Is your overall quality similar to your nightgame days?

I have not compiled a spreadsheet and properly tracked down my data, as a result I will be giving an estimate off the top of my head, which is prone to a lot of error and subconscious biases. Anyways, I would say only about 20% of my matches actually reply to me saying "hey."
Of the girls that reply to me, another fraction (2/5 or so) will reply past the first 2-3 replies before not replying anymore.
BUT, here is where things get optimistic: if a girl makes it through those initial 2-3 replies of inane boring small talk, then I am highly likely to eventually meet up and bang. Like 80% of those, if not higher.

Overall quality I would say is similar to nightgame. Mostly 6's and 7's (in my scale, 5 is average bell curve and 6 and 7 is slightly cuter than average but not super hot). A few 8's and 9's sprinkled in but I can't manage to retain them for more than 1 bang or maybe a few weeks. My night game issues seem to translate perfectly well into tinder. Lots of 6's and 7's and they wanna stick around, but only a small occasional trinkling of 8's and 9's that I can't seem to keep around.

You say "hey" as a filter? I reckon you could get a higher response rate with more personalized openers but spreading a wider net would catch more flakey girls. Keeping the conversation "inane" probably explains the very high bang rate.

You zero date banging straight to your pad? Or going on dates?

Thanks again for the breakdown.