[Suits]

(07-07-2018 10:47 PM)churros Wrote:  

Apparently four kids are out.

That rumour has been denied by official sources, according to this man: https://twitter.com/RichardBarrow

[Architekt]

(07-07-2018 10:47 PM)churros Wrote:  

Apparently four kids are out.

Not quite

Quote:

Prov Gov says the rescue mission is underway. They expect to have at least some boys out today, with a group of four first.

Quote:

Rescue could take three or four days altogether

More from the press conference: it's confirmed that rescue teams have indeed been practising for three or four days ahead of retrieving the boys. Also, it could take three or four days to rescue them all but this "depends on the weather" - this is from the Third Region Army Deputy Commander.

EDIT: Update

Quote:

The boys will each be accompanied by two expert divers

At the press conference, the acting Chiang Rai governor told the large group of assembled media that "today is D-Day".

The only way to bring them out is by navigating dark and tight passageways filled with muddy water and strong currents, as well as oxygen-depleted air.

The path out is considered especially complicated because of twists and turns in narrow flooded passages.

But the governor supervising the mission said earlier that mild weather and falling water levels over the last few days had created optimal conditions for an underwater evacuation that won't last if it rains again.

[rpg]

Fucking based. Somebody has some balls to pull this off.

[Davis]

I find The Guardian's live updates to be pretty good. Follow the live updates here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...-boys-live

Hope that everyone (the children, coach and the divers) gets out safely!

[JayR]

The operation is underway. The lives of 13 young men are now in immediate jeopardy. For each young man, two experts will voluntarily risk their own lives guiding them out of the depths.

I hope to awaken to good news.

[TravelerKai]

(07-07-2018 04:28 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I'm surprised that cave is not full of deadly snakes. Thailand is full of dangerous snakes, scorpions, etc. It's like an Asian Style Australia or something. A reticulated python or a King Cobra would not find a place like that comfortable? Russell's vipers?

The answer to that is simple really. Snakes are not stupid. They probably have some type of clock/calendar, and they have enough sense to stay away from caves because the monsoons are coming.

Human beings, of course, are stupid enough to do this. And that's why we are talking about this. Human beings are the only creatures stupid enough to get caught in a situation like this.

It's like the canary in the coal mine. Miners used to take canaries into mines. If the canary died, it meant humans should get out. When you don't see life somewhere, you might think: "Humans aren't supposed to be here." The brilliant coach ignored all that.

(07-07-2018 04:35 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(07-07-2018 04:28 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

(07-06-2018 11:14 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I'm surprised that cave is not full of deadly snakes. Thailand is full of dangerous snakes, scorpions, etc. It's like an Asian Style Australia or something. A reticulated python or a King Cobra would not find a place like that comfortable? Russell's vipers?

The answer to that is simple really. Snakes are not stupid. They probably have some type of clock/calendar, and they have enough sense to stay away from caves because the monsoons are coming.

Human beings, of course, are stupid enough to do this. And that's why we are talking about this. Human beings are the only creatures stupid enough to get caught in a situation like this.

It's like the canary in the coal mine. Miners used to take canaries into mines. If the canary died, it meant humans should get out. When you don't see life somewhere, you might think: "Humans aren't supposed to be here." The brilliant coach ignored all that.

Actually there are lots and lots of animal skeletons and fossils found in both wet and dry caves all over the world.

Like I wrote in my post above its the little unexpected things that can make and otherwise safe situation turn deadly. In the case of the Thai cave it was an early, heavy rain fall

Animals or more specifically mammals? Mammals can have very poor judgement in many situations. Reptiles? Not so much. Not saying snakes do not make mistakes *crossing the road ahem*, but they tend not to get out of character often. Some creatures rely on instincts more than others.

From what PT posted about cave diving, that shit seems to be about as dangerous as climbing Everest. Fuck that. I'd rather walk through Gary Indiana or the Pork n Beans Projects than do any of that shit.

[Fortis]

Didn't the coaches know rainy season was coming? Seems like piss poor planning. I feel for the kids but these coaches sound a little bad at future projection.

[BlastbeatCasanova]

What a crazy story. I've been caving and I've been diving and I can't imagine the sack size it would take to combine the two. Fuck that noise. Caving was cool, I guess I didn't give a shit bc I was pretty young when I did it (guided by professionals) but you probably won't catch me underground anytime soon. Some parts were pretty intense, like having to crawl 40 ft with our bodies totally flat, pushing our packs in front of us, and this one part called the "Birth Canal" that was a super narrow twisty part. I remember one kid thought he got stuck and had a legit freak out, the adults had to spend like 30 minutes calming him down so he could wriggle out.

Hope this story has a happy ending, but the logistics of the rescue are pretty ridic. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Beyond Borders]

(07-08-2018 02:25 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Didn't the coaches know rainy season was coming? Seems like piss poor planning. I feel for the kids but these coaches sound a little bad at future projection.

You just described 90% of Thailand.

[Beyond Borders]

Every time I envision this dive, it makes the hair on my arms stand on end. What a story they'll have to tell if they make it through this safe and sound.

[Architekt]

Rain has arrived

Here's hoping the rescue team is as well prepared as they can be for this

Quote:

Wet weather hits the area
Rain is soaking the Tham Luang Cave area, increasing the risks in what has been called a "war with water and time" to save the team.

ABC journalist Anne Barker said the mountain above the cave has "almost disappeared in the rain clouds".

[britchard]

Good luck to the lads. I've heard that if everything works out fine in the end, FIFA are going to give them tickets to the World Cup final (they are a football team, after all). That would be nice, but of course getting them out alive is the most important thing.

Just goes to show how dangerous the world can still be. We can walk on the Moon, and within 20 years I have no doubt that man will have walked on Mars. Yet a group of boys may die even after getting the best help in the World, the best equipment and the best advice. They are only 2000m from civilization.

[Architekt]

Update: Rain has cleared and rescue team is in position

Quote:

Update: Cave divers in position for operation
A statement issued by the rescue operation said that at 2:00pm local time, the 13 divers were in position for the extraction, but it was not clear if the children had begun diving.

Here's some more from the statement:

Quote:

Because of the complexity of the cave and difficulty of the operation, it is unknown how long it will take before the team can bring out the first batch of boys.

The divers will work with medics in the cave to assess the boys’ health before determining who will come out first.

EDIT: Further updates:

Quote:

Update: Cave divers in position for operation
The head of the rescue operation has released more detailed information about how it's being done.

Here's the summary from ABC correspondent Liam Cochrane:

Quote:

Ten foreign divers went to chamber 9 where the boys and their coach are, and to chamber 6, at the t-junction. Another three are supporting their efforts.

Once the team reaches the relative safety of chamber 3, about half way, rescue experts from Australia, the US, Thailand, China and Europe will help them clamber slowly to the cave entrance, using a rope system in some sections.

[Architekt]

Update: First boys out

Quote:

Local media reporting 3 boys out. Reuters has confirmed 2 boys, quoting a local official. I think we can start to get excited :-)

Quote:

Updates by Spring News:

✅ 5:37pm First boy emerged from cave & taken to the field hospital
✅ 5:50pm Second boy emerged from cave & taken to the field hospital
✅ 6:06pm Third boy emerged from the cave & medics are attending him

EDIT: Lots of mixed reports, hopefully this isn't far from the truth

[Avadhuta]

This is great news Architekt. Let's hope for the best.

[Architekt]

First 2 confirmed out of the cave

Quote:

Two boys being treated at field hospital

A Health Department spokesperson says the two boys are currently at the field hospital near the cave being given a physical examination.

Two ambulances were seen leaving the cave area in northern Thailand, but it was unclear who was inside them.

EDIT: More updates

Quote:

The first two boys were reportedly brought out of the cave at 5.37pm, then 5.50pm local time. They were treated initially at a field hospital at the cave entrance. A helicopter has taken off but not clear if 1 or 2 boys inside

Quote:

The third boy was reported to be out at 6.06 local time, but not clear if that means he’s at Chamber 3 or outside cave

EDIT: Six boys now free from cave

Quote:

The Reuters news agency is reporting at least six boys have left the cave in Thailand, where they had been trapped for two weeks.

[Seadog]

(07-07-2018 04:14 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

I've been in caves before, but those are the touristy ones like Luray Caverns in Virginia. I don't see much reason to go caving otherwise.

I have a second cousin who had an injury that hurt so bad that he wore tennis shoes to his daughter's wedding. I had a great uncle who died in a coal mine back in the 1930's and left six orphans.

This whole thing reminds me a lot of the Quecreek rescue back in 2002. Nine miners were trapped for over three days after they poked a hole in the wrong place, and the mine filled up with about 75 million of gallons of water. I definitely remember thinking they wouldn't get them out alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quecreek_Mine_rescue

They got them out by boring a hole into the place where the miners were. They pulled them out through the bore hole. Of course, that hole was only about 139 feet.

Why have they given up on boring a hole? I have no idea. My guess is that they don't have the equipment to do it. Do they have water pumps? I can only guess that it is just too long for them. Of course, there is also a risk that the hole will fill up with water.

I also remember Copiapó in Chilé in 2010. These miners were underground for over two months. They did have a huge hole though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copia...g_accident

Quote:

Jesus Christ. Fuck that guy. I hope he survives so the fathers can straighten him out.

This whole thing is reminding me of these rich idiots who try to climb Mount Everest. They find a guide who is an experienced and knowledgeable climber. Then they pay the guide $10,000 or more to lead them up to the top of Mount Everest--no previous climbing experience required.

This stupid jackass took a bunch of kids who didn't know any better, who are told to do whatever the coach tells them to do. Just, what was he thinking? Was this supposed to be some kind of team-building exercise?

I haven't done any deep diving. I hope to do that sometime. Deep diving has its dangers. But if you get in trouble, you can just go up to the surface to save yourself.

With cave diving, you combine the dangers of caving and diving. You are underground and can get disoriented. Many cave divers get confused and go into the wrong cavern when they are trying to get out. The dirt can shift and can bury when you are underwater. It is just a way for spoiled brats to get thrills. If we are lucky, they die and don't kill anyone else.

I think that since there is like 2500' of rock above the kids, that the time it would take to drill a comparatively large size bore hole and to mobilize the equipment is way too long. And access to the area, and even determining the correct area is challenging given poor roads and maps. They do have pumps, but you're dealing with such a huge volume of water, it makes a minor difference. Like draining a swimming pool with a straw.

Seeing as you're so contemptuous of any sort of adventure seeker, where do you draw the line? Rich people with mountaineering training who get into trouble? Poor people who've spent their life in the mountains? Or is anyone who requires a $25k rescue left to the sharks in your book? How much money was wasted on those silly adventure seeking Apollo 13 nuts? Going to the moon?! What kind of nonsense is that.

I read an interesting psych study about lots of people who share your view, but then whom have zero problem with society dropping $100k on health care for obese/smokers/shitty health people who lived a life that was (albeit much more slowly) due to require with far more certainty, far more expensive remediation.

What risks should society cover is a debate for another day. Motorbike accidents, STD treatments, even accidents from recreational car travel? I have a feeling like many others your opinion just happens conveniently encompasses risky shit that you like to do.

No man is an island, and no man is perfect. Sooner or later we're all going to need help from someone else, be it from bad luck, bad planning, or bad decisions. Despite being young and healthy, I try not to begrudge others who find themselves in situations I like to tell myself I'd never allow myself to get in to. There but for the grace of God and all that...

Cave diving definitely has risks, and I'd love to hear more about what happened to that Thai Seal. "Run out of oxygen" is pretty broad, and could mean several different things. Having several friends who do a lot of this stuff and looking into it my self, redundancy, redundancy, redundancy is the name of the game. Losing your reg or losing visibility are basically non-events. In the courses you need to extricate yourself out of a cave blind, that's why training is so imperative because something tiny happens like losing a reg, you panic, lose the line, blow up a silt storm, drop your lights and fuck yourself. "Getting disoriented and having the dirt shift" sound like arguments by someone who didn't look into cave diving further than their imagination.

I've seen the same thing when inexperienced people lose a reg at 10m, can't find it on the first attempt, then they scramble and try to shoot to the surface.

You say you want to do deep diving, but I would say it's only marginally safer than caving, because you simply can't just "shoot to the surface" if you have problems. Often times you're looking at 30+ minutes of deco and gas switches on the way up to prevent bends and other various nasties.

What was the coach thinking? The same thing a million other people think when they answer a quick cell phone message while driving, drive anyways despite having had that third beer, when they cut across rail tracks, or play on wet rocks near the ocean. "It will probably be fine for me, just like it's been fine for 9999 of the last 10000 people who did this".

[Architekt]

Unconfirmed as of yet: At least one of the boys requires serious medical attention

Quote:

A helicopter just flew overheard, in the direction of Chiang Rai (and the provincial hospital). There are unconfirmed reports one of the boys is not doing so well. Will bring you more on that when we have something solid.

Quote:

One Thai news site has reported one of the boys rescued from the cave was said to need "close medical attention".

But the report has not been confirmed by the ABC yet.

[glugger]

Live updates here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...-boys-live

[Architekt]

Update:

Quote:

Four boys safely in hospital
The head of the rescue operation has said four the boys are safely in hospital.

He said at a press conference the team will need more time now prepare for the next operation and get the next group of boys out of the cave.

@glugger: I'm reading from ABC, seems to be pretty up to the minute

EDIT:

Quote:

Rescue chief Narongsak Osottanakorn says rescue workers now need "about 10-hours" to prepare for the next operation at the site.

[puckerman]

(07-08-2018 08:32 AM)Seadog Wrote:  

Seeing as you're so contemptuous of any sort of adventure seeker, where do you draw the line? Rich people with mountaineering training who get into trouble? Poor people who've spent their life in the mountains? Or is anyone who requires a $25k rescue left to the sharks in your book? How much money was wasted on those silly adventure seeking Apollo 13 nuts? Going to the moon?! What kind of nonsense is that.

These are all activities of consenting legal adults. If the jackass coach had went into the caves all by himself, that would be perfectly fine. He is gambling with his own life.

That isn't what he did. He is gambling with other people's lives.

Back when I was in grade school, we would go on field trips--maybe a park, a museum, or something else. To go on these trips, we would have to a signed permission slip from one of our parents. Did the jackass coach get permission from mom or dad to take these boys into the cave? It sounds like they didn't even know they were there.

Quote:

You say you want to do deep diving, but I would say it's only marginally safer than caving, because you simply can't just "shoot to the surface" if you have problems. Often times you're looking at 30+ minutes of deco and gas switches on the way up to prevent bends and other various nasties.

If I do it, that is my choice. I'm not going to take a bunch of kids with me. You are comparing adults doing risky activities by themselves to an adult taking a bunch of minors into risky activities. Your comparisons are absurd.

If this had happened in America, there would be an army of lawyers waiting outside the cave to serve this coach with legal papers. He would also likely be charged with "child endangerment" or something else.

[pants]

Its not much better growing up in a gated community where you are not allowed to leave the house.

It was normal for football teams to visit this cave.
Many of them had been there before.
Who ever did not want to join, could pass. Some even passed just to watch the world cup.

This is the third world. The coach grew up in the third world. They are not on a level to properly manage risks from a cultural perspective.

The parents forgave him. The couch gave away the food to the young children.
When he gets out he does not deserve a public pillory of any kinds.

[Architekt]

Quote:

If this had happened in America, there would be an army of lawyers waiting outside the cave to serve this coach with legal papers. He would also likely be charged with "child endangerment" or something else.

This is why America is full of snowflakes

I can only imagine how fucking miserable my childhood would have been had my every activity been scrutinised by a lawyer

[Seadog]

(07-08-2018 09:25 AM)puckerman Wrote:  

(07-08-2018 08:32 AM)Seadog Wrote:  

Seeing as you're so contemptuous of any sort of adventure seeker, where do you draw the line? Rich people with mountaineering training who get into trouble? Poor people who've spent their life in the mountains? Or is anyone who requires a $25k rescue left to the sharks in your book? How much money was wasted on those silly adventure seeking Apollo 13 nuts? Going to the moon?! What kind of nonsense is that.

These are all activities of consenting legal adults. If the jackass coach had went into the caves all by himself, that would be perfectly fine. He is gambling with his own life.

That isn't what he did. He is gambling with other people's lives.

Back when I was in grade school, we would go on field trips--maybe a park, a museum, or something else. To go on these trips, we would have to a signed permission slip from one of our parents. Did the jackass coach get permission from mom or dad to take these boys into the cave? It sounds like they didn't even know they were there.

Quote:

You say you want to do deep diving, but I would say it's only marginally safer than caving, because you simply can't just "shoot to the surface" if you have problems. Often times you're looking at 30+ minutes of deco and gas switches on the way up to prevent bends and other various nasties.

If I do it, that is my choice. I'm not going to take a bunch of kids with me. You are comparing adults doing risky activities by themselves to an adult taking a bunch of minors into risky activities. Your comparisons are absurd.

If this had happened in America, there would be an army of lawyers waiting outside the cave to serve this coach with legal papers. He would also likely be charged with "child endangerment" or something else.

I'm honestly happy that some places haven't succumbed to "bubble wrapped, safety at all costs, sue anything that moves" culture of the US. Why is it that some people can't simply accept that bad things happen, and that someone - anyone, must pay a price when shit goes wrong. He was a week ahead of official rainy season. At what point would you say it's ok to go in the cave? 2 weeks before, 2 months before? The risk will never be zero, so the obvious solution in many people's books is to not do it at all. Taken ad absurdum, you're safest never leaving the house, but then at risk for all sorts of things as a result of inaction. Even in Canada a few months ago we had the hockey team get hit by a truck and a bunch of people killed. I would even wager there were permission slips signed, and even *that* didn't keep them safe. People aren't ok anywhere.

Part of it is cultural too. I had an old landlord who grew up in eastern Europe telling me about getting drunk as a teenager then racing friends across bridge railings while walking on their hands. In Asia picking coconuts involves scaling a 10-15m tree by hand with no safety gear, then hacking away at them. Driving with 6 ppl on a scooter while also transporting 4x8 sheets of glass is par for the course. Videos all over youtube of people scaling bridges and buildings with no safety gear for kicks. Western culture is the most coddled in the history of humanity.

I guess my point is that people are going on about how reckless he was, but no one has any real basis for comparison. How many times do people go into caves and not die? Do you never hear about it for the very reason that they never go in, or because they do it all the time and never get in trouble. Like BB said, if there were caves where I was growing up, you'd bet your ass I'd be in every inch of them. If you're spent much time in Asia, you'd quickly realize that these sorts of decisions are nothing out of the ordinary.

I mentioned in another post years ago about moral luck. You can really only judge people based on the decisions they made, not on a particular outcome. Not only would I wager that people have frequented this cave before (given how extensively mapped it is), but that people have probably gone in and out closer to the start of the official rainy season and been fine. So you have two people making the same decision(go into cave close to the start of wet season), but one gets crucified because of the weather gods.

I frequently did overnight bush trips when I was a youth which involved repelling, minor river crossings, hacking down big trees with sharp pieces of metal when I was 12-16. Far riskier in the short term of breaking a bone, getting a serious cut, or even drowning, but far less risky in the long term of being afraid of the outdoors, having no confidence to handle risk, and eventually succumbing to diabetes because I can't do anything in a place not air conditioned. Today, a bad fall or cut, and I can just hear the people going on. "Who the fuck thought giving 13 yos axes was a good idea?! They didn't even have a ax safety certification course, which as an adult I would need for work!"

[questor70]

(07-08-2018 10:07 AM)Seadog Wrote:  

I'm honestly happy that some places haven't succumbed to "bubble wrapped, safety at all costs, sue anything that moves" culture of the US.

There's a difference between the helicopter parenting going on in the US which is paranoid about kids getting even a scuffed shin and taking Darwin-Award-style risks.

I'm sort of reminded of the Ed Gorey book which illustrated various possible ways kids can die accidentally (usually due to some degree of foolhardiness) one for each letter of the alphabet.