[doc holliday]

We do need some more specifics from LuckyFever if he chooses to share that but my reading of it is that he's not happy with the quality of tail that he's getting and is tired of working his ass off for mediocre girls with whom he sees no future. I could be wrong though.

[Dalaran1991]

(03-10-2018 03:41 PM)luckyfever Wrote:  

(03-09-2018 05:01 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

So it's always a question you have to answer for yourself: what are you willing to sacrifice? Your time, your sanity, your effort, your dignity, your sense of self?

...I'm not willing to sacrifice my dignity (some say ego) to blow my load in a nubile 18 yo.

At some point like Noir said, you become so accomplished (I.e your game becomes second nature, your value goes up) the price seems smaller, but it's always there.

...Just keep on grinding and grinding until you get "rich" enough that you barely notice the price you are paying.

Dalaran, thanks for this -- it's an idea I haven't really considered. So far I've been making a conscious decision choosing not to 'sacrifice', and instead looking for a relationship where everything is 'as it should be'. In other words I think I may be pursuing an unrealistic ideal without building the foundational framework ('richness') to attain and support it.

I wish I could help you there friend but this is really a question only you can answer. I can not tell you which values are non-negociable for you and which are just holding you down. Dignity for ex is very controversial. Some (myself included) say you dont sacrifice it for no one, living or dead for what use is getting pussy if you hate yourself looking in the mirror? Some say fuck it outta window because it's what holding you to your comfortzone.

What I can tell you is that finding a girl with whom you just feel natural, that must be earned through hard work. It's not something you are entitled to. You are not allowed to "be yourself" if being yourself suck ass.

Also, do realize that your values change with experience and pain. What you consider dignity today might look completely different to tomorrow.

Quote:

One pathway forward I see is the conscious decision to renounce and compartmentalize my ideals, to make that sacrifice and rebuild from the ground up. This would involve sacrificing my dignity (which may be misplaced in the first place), my sense of self (to view the whole process purely as a game), and to drastically lower my standards for volume.

Is this a viable way forward? Are the above^ worth sacrificing (even temporarily) in pursuit of something greater? Will one get 'lost' along the way? It's like taking the humanity out of the game in return for science, and it's an uncomfortable thought as it would require immense commitment to see things through.

This was basically my redpill experience. I was blue/purple pill until the girl I fell onenitis to slept with my best buddy, then betrayed him and destroyed him completely. You can read about it here if you are curious:

thread-43725.html

Yes, I did break down (almost) everything I was and rebuild it from the ground up. During those 2 years I shed most of my friends, almost all of my old beliefs and habits. I became someone better. If my old self meet me he would weep manly tears of what I have become.

I have to warn you however, I dont think I'm happier or less "lost" than I was pre-redpilled. More accomplished perhaps, but it's not au automatic "show me the way" pill. I'm still "lost", there's always so much to learn and the moment you solve a problem you just move on to the next.

Again, choose your price and pay it wisely. Build up your capital so gradually you pay less and less (read: you give less of a fuck)

[luckyfever]

OP here.

(03-10-2018 06:03 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

(03-08-2018 09:32 PM)luckyfever Wrote:  

I believe every action should be aligned towards a higher purpose/goal, but now I'm at a loss for what the goal should even be...

[...]

...I'm just saying that maybe the meaning of life is just to be alive and enjoy the ride and feel laughter, love, and friendship without having to be climbing toward some objective all the time. Maybe instead of looking for something to hold onto; you should just let go of everything.

LINUX, I love your analogy of the dance, that perhaps one should just let go and enjoy things for what it is. If I understand your point correctly it's to enjoy the process/thenow/life and to not always keep a higher objective in mind.

But this is just one side of the coin. If I were to live this way I would be happy with the way everything is and never move forward or achieve greater things in life.

By your analogy, I do enjoy the dance when I'm dancing, yet I know I can become a much better dancer. It's just unfortunate that the partners I pair with never seem to dance at my level, and have no vision/desire/will/commitment to work together for a world class performance.

To me, enjoying the dance is spinning plates and sLTRs. But by this token I'll never be able to build a great family.

---

(03-10-2018 10:42 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

Second the advice in this thread. However, here's what I would say which I think is the most relevant:

For God's sakes, please stop blaming the world, or culture, the west or its women for your problems. Main issue is that you're insecure and projecting that on to problems that are known to be true in this community to alleviate accountability for yourself.

It's a common pattern on the forum these days and it's painful to follow. You need to focus on yourself. Stop groveling, take action and report back.

We will help you adjust if you're fucking up in the process. We're not here to make you feel better but rather help you BE better.

Here's how I see it: I do blame the culture, the west, and its women for a lot of my problems. But it doesn't matter where the blame lies or what environment I'm in -- it's my responsibility now to push forward and to make the most out of what I can.

For a while I did try to alleviate accountability for myself, but I've moved past that now. The tone may have have carried over, but the spirit has not.

---

(03-11-2018 12:14 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

Women inherently are not that bad if you have game. The problem is we make too many judgments without game and it affects us to the point that we blame external forces like culture rather than focus on ourselves.

(03-11-2018 01:51 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

(03-10-2018 10:42 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

Second the advice in this thread. However, here's what I would say which I think is the most relevant:

For God's sakes, please stop blaming the world, or culture, the west or its women for your problems. Main issue is that you're insecure and projecting that on to problems that are known to be true in this community to alleviate accountability for yourself.

It's a common pattern on the forum these days and it's painful to follow. You need to focus on yourself. Stop groveling, take action and report back.

We will help you adjust if you're fucking up in the process. We're not here to make you feel better but rather help you BE better.

I think this a little unfair to the OP. He doesn't seem to be having problem getting chicks but he's having problems figuring out a path forward with them which is something that doesn't get nearly the attention and discussion that it should on the forum (overwhelming discussion is about how to go about getting them in the first place). As men, I think its fair to demand much more from the women we date. If we as men demand more of these chicks, then you'd slowly but surely start to see changes in their behavior but most guys are failing miserably in this regard. I know for myself that I expect certain behaviors from women that I date and I'm not the least bit shy about communicating this, no fucks given for how offended she gets. It also serves as a shit test to weed out stupid chicks. I agree with making yourself as high value as you can because then you can demand these things from women and if they want to be in your high value life then she needs to get down with the program, period.

(03-11-2018 05:02 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

^I think I was definitely harsh but and understand your point doc but from OP's post I didn't gather that he had success with women. If he did, I would agree you're correct. However by the same token, my perspective was that he appears to be speaking somewhat theoretically and hypothetically rather than speaking from experience. There just aren't enough facts for me to say that he has had positive experiences or at least bangs to drawn on and as a result, make a conclusion that he now is dissuaded. OP, I think you need to clarify this for us.

I do think I'm lacking in game and experience as I'm nowhere near as prolific as most RVF members. i.e. I've never spun plates before, and I only see one girl at a time.

I frequently get the attention of 5's but I never act on it. 6's come with enough frequency that it satisfies me. 7's I have troubles holding on to. I have not yet gotten or held down an 8+.

What doc holliday wrote (bold is mine) I would say cuts right down to the issue. Yes, my game can and should be improved, and I've decided to focus on this moving forward as it may be the solution I'm looking for. But as of now I consider figuring out a path forward with them to be a separate problem. You can plate with game, but the game involved with getting plates will not help towards building a marriage. And it also doesn't help that I feel I'm putting in more at every step along the way (maybe better game will fix this).

(03-11-2018 05:02 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

The tone of the post also seemed to be coming off as frustration from a person that is on the path of giving up on women. My point is that he doesn't need to but he also needs to fix his inner game to get there

I don't see myself ever giving up on women.

And I would say my inner game is pretty solid. Any insecurities I have is the result of "questioning my place" at the hands of real world results. For example, if I can't find a 6+ quality marriage minded girl, what does that say about me..?

(03-11-2018 07:58 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  

[...] my reading of it is that he's not happy with the quality of tail that he's getting and is tired of working his ass off for mediocre girls with whom he sees no future. I could be wrong though.

You're not wrong. The bold sums up my issue exactly.

---

(03-12-2018 09:22 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Yes, I did break down (almost) everything I was and rebuild it from the ground up. During those 2 years I shed most of my friends, almost all of my old beliefs and habits. I became someone better. If my old self meet me he would weep manly tears of what I have become.

I have to warn you however, I dont think I'm happier or less "lost" than I was pre-redpilled. More accomplished perhaps, but it's not au automatic "show me the way" pill. I'm still "lost", there's always so much to learn and the moment you solve a problem you just move on to the next.

Again, choose your price and pay it wisely. Build up your capital so gradually you pay less and less (read: you give less of a fuck)

I read your linked post, and I think right now I'm where you started. It's like I've been progressively pushed into a corner by my experiences with no choice now but to fight with everything I have.

---

(03-10-2018 09:43 PM)Graft Wrote:  

[...]

To top it off, I'm handsome with pretty much anti-aging genetics.

The guys who have met me on the forum will vouch that this is all true. [...] I usually pull in the 6-7 range, with the occasional 8 or 9. I can't keep anything higher than a 6 around for more than a couple weeks.

I'm getting extremely frustrated at how lopsided the sexual marketplace is.

Judging by your self description I'm definitely playing at a level below you, yet you seemingly have the same troubles. This doesn't bode well for me lol. What is your goal with the girls you're seeing? Are you just plating them, or something else?

---

(03-10-2018 04:30 PM)Eugenics Wrote:  

My first goal and recommendation with you is to increase your competency with women. The only way I've found that achieves this is reading here and trying your theories/style/game in the wild. Time after time after time.

You're right. This is the only way forward.

---

(03-11-2018 08:30 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Marriage and kids is a tough sell because the payoff is nothing you can adequately describe.

On paper it just seems like a total writeoff, yet once you're there you wouldn't trade your family for all the money in the world.

Biology is funny like that.

This is a big part of what motivates me in this direction. I just know the payoff to be one of the most rewarding things a man can experience. But it must be done well, and it must be done right. Yet the women I've dealt with don't seem to appreciate this, and the magnitude of the task/work to make this a reality.

I know you're one of the successfully married guys here. If you don't mind me asking, how much of the success of your marriage would you contribute to 'finding your wife as she was' and how much to the work/effort the two of you put into it together?

[LINUX]

(03-12-2018 08:42 PM)luckyfever Wrote:  

By your analogy, I do enjoy the dance when I'm dancing, yet I know I can become a much better dancer. It's just unfortunate that the partners I pair with never seem to dance at my level, and have no vision/desire/will/commitment to work together for a world class performance.

To me, enjoying the dance is spinning plates and sLTRs. But by this token I'll never be able to build a great family.

I think to give you honest advice on why this is, I would need to meet you and see how you are in person.

I'll be 100% percent honest with you and I'm going to say something that most men don't want to hear or are in denial about.

It's not that women no longer want a family, commitment, or a long-term plan to spend their life with someone. The problem is that they now have more choices on where to find this and their standards have gone up and the bell curve has changed from where it was 50 years ago. I know this because I'm on the right side of the bellcurve. I also have great friends on the forum and they are in the same boat as me, our problem isn't finding good women to be with, our problem is having to turn so many good women away who would otherwise make for great wives and family. And I also have friends on the left side of the bell-curve and give them the same advice that I'm writing here.

Men by nature are attracted to freedom, a knock-out punch, war, breaking a tackle for the end-zone and women are naturally attracted to maintaining social relationships and starting a family. We try to say that the roles have changed, but truthfully, you can't fight nature. It's still the same.

You just need to get to the right side of the bell-curve which is possible, it just may take you another decade or so to get there. And getting there has a lot to do with physical attractiveness and also your ego. Anyone who says that isn't important, is selling you a lie because they are in denial themselves. It's like this, every night when a woman lays in bed and pulls out her vibrator or sticks her hand in her panties, she's thinking of someone. If that person isn't you that she's thinking of, then do whatever it takes to make it become you.

Of course, there are outliners in the statistics, just like everything else, but if you look around and do your own analysis , you'll see I'm pretty much on point.

[luckyfever]

(03-12-2018 10:00 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

I'll be 100% percent honest with you and I'm going to say something that most men don't want to hear or are in denial about.

Thank you.

(03-12-2018 10:00 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

The problem is that they now have more choices on where to find this and their standards have gone up and the bell curve has changed from where it was 50 years ago. I know this because I'm on the right side of the bellcurve [...] our problem isn't finding good women to be with, our problem is having to turn so many good women away who would otherwise make for great wives and family.

Was there a noticeable threshold past which you could consistently get good women? How would you characterize it?

(03-12-2018 10:00 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

You just need to get to the right side of the bell-curve which is possible, it just may take you another decade or so to get there. And getting there has a lot to do with physical attractiveness and also your ego.

Could you expand on what you mean by ego here?

[LINUX]

(03-12-2018 10:27 PM)luckyfever Wrote:  

Was there a noticeable threshold past which you could consistently get good women? How would you characterize it?

Could you expand on what you mean by ego here?

Those are good questions. Those are also hard questions to answer.

There is no magic threshold to break though . It's linear. You don't go to bed one night unattractive and wake up attractive. You hit the gym everyday for 10 years, fix your teeth, and eat chicken breast and salmon when you want steak and ice-cream.

As far as ego, a lot of men say women are attracted to assholes. Well, that's not true. Women are attracted to confidence. They've been telling men this ever since the first internet dating profiles were written and men still aren't getting it. They're too busy trying to entertain, impress, and trying to look cool. And what ego really is is "wisdom" and wisdom isn't learned by reading books or internet threads about game, that's "hypothesis" without results. Wisdom takes years of failure, success, love, and also severe heart-break until you can fully grasp what the hell is going on and how things really work in life. You need to master all of those things.

Another thing about wisdom or "ego", take me for example, I don't open sets, tell jokes, try to makes someone laugh, and I never ever ask a woman her for her phone number. I ask her if she wants mine and if she says yes, I'll write it on a piece of paper and turn and walk away and make her chase me. I don't do this because it's some sort of advance game.. I do it because it's the world I created and the world I want to live in, where I'm not attached to the outcome in order to enjoy life or feel worth.

While 30 other guys are tripping over the shoelaces, sipping their cheap beer, and trying to make-out like it's their first kiss, I like being remembered as the one guy who turned and walked away because I had other options and that drives women fucking crazy and they don't know how to respond to it. And I'm being 100% honest with my intentions, if she writes me then that's great, maybe I'll meet her but I could really care less because I have other women I spend my time with.

Would I do just as well sticking around and talking to her and asking her for her number, yes, I would, but I have no interest in doing that, that's not me, mostly because that bores me. Game bores me.

At this point in my life, I've reduced attraction down to a 5th grade level where I just say "I like you, do you like me ?" Worked for me in 5th grade and I'll soon be 40 and guess what, the shit still works. And I find beautiful, marriage/ family worthy women that way. I put the ball in her court and she chooses if she wants to chase me or not, but I'm not going to chase her. And that is the "ego" that I wrote about. I'm not telling you ego is making someone chase you. I'm telling you ego is figuring out what you want and what you're worth and making that a reality because you're just enjoying the dance and not attached to the outcome.

But you have to walk the walk. If you fake this, women will see right though it. You have to believe it and live it, or else you're just wearing a mask, always changing it when no one's looking, and never knowing who you really are.

[N°6]

Mace, the ideal woman is still the stay at home thrifty and fugal wife who entered the marriage covenant with savings, no debts and who intends to invest in her children. They are rare though as Western women are not brought up to be wives and mothers anymore.

The Millionaire Next Door identified that most US millionaires have a stay at home wife who manages hearth and home as a domestic business with well brought up children being its premium output. Not only that, the book identified that the wives of millionaires were typically more frugal than their husbands.

As hypergamy typically makes women CHOOSE to be the second income earners, their incomes are typically spent by increased expenses caused by the marriage having no defensive team as both man and wife are playing offense.

Ideally adult children would be on the special teams to at least pay their expenses by earning the family some yardage.

The increase in wives incomes has not translated to increased family wealth. It not only allowed the CEOs to abolish the married fathers’ premium, the increased expenses of working wives has put more families in debt.

[XXL]

OP, what kind of "return" did you expect in the first place?

[Leonard D Neubache]

(03-12-2018 08:42 PM)luckyfever Wrote:  

...

(03-11-2018 08:30 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Marriage and kids is a tough sell because the payoff is nothing you can adequately describe.

On paper it just seems like a total writeoff, yet once you're there you wouldn't trade your family for all the money in the world.

Biology is funny like that.

This is a big part of what motivates me in this direction. I just know the payoff to be one of the most rewarding things a man can experience. But it must be done well, and it must be done right. Yet the women I've dealt with don't seem to appreciate this, and the magnitude of the task/work to make this a reality.

I know you're one of the successfully married guys here. If you don't mind me asking, how much of the success of your marriage would you contribute to 'finding your wife as she was' and how much to the work/effort the two of you put into it together?

My marriage benefited more from me becoming a stronger man than it did from my wife becoming more submissive. In fact the latter was never going to happen without the former. I sometimes look back and wonder how I made it work since that was a long time ago and well before I found the manosphere or anything like that. I was a child in comparison to my current self.

Women are a blank slate. They take life one day at a time with little regard for future planning. If you've forged yourself into a worthy stud (in the traditional sense of the word) then they're going to start misplacing their birth control while never really understanding why. A week later they're pregnant and desperate to get married. 9 months later they're (hopefully) married and they have their first child.

And each day they're going to wake up a prisoner of their cumulative circumstances, never really drawing a line from where they've been to where they are now and by deduction where they are heading. You will notice that they only care about future planning when they don't have a figure of authority to tell them what to do and when to do it, and in any case they hate that responsibility. It makes them miserable.

What makes a marriage work is that she must be able to see you as a master, not only over her but over your own destiny (and that of your family by extension).

Money is only relevant if you possess it as a vehicle to drive your dominance in the world. A big house is meaningless if your maid scalds you to keep your feet off the couch and you meekly comply.

I would say that searching for a submissive woman is everything, if you are a man to be submitted to. Submission is far more prevalent in youth (for women) which presents another example of why younger is better.

As I keep hammering away at in the LTR thread. You're better off with an 18 year old 6 than a 30 year old 8.

[DarkTriad]

It's a tough road to hoe, but you can make it a lot easier for yourself by avoiding some of the shell games the modern world is playing with "marriage" and "family". Accept that the modern paper institution of marriage (the government sanctioned one) is a sham and an actual blind path leading AWAY from real marriage. It's a matriarchal slave contract masquerading as marriage, trying to trap the unwary the way a Venus flytrap tricks bugs into thinking it's a flower. Just avoid it altogether, and you're already ahead of the game finding a real marriage. Society and the state will no longer provide the incentives for a woman to do the right things to hold a family together, so you're going to do it for them. Just the fact that you've avoided the Fake Marriage trap provides your family with many of the practical economic incentives that used to encourage families to stick together. A woman can no longer pretend that you will be the only one that suffers in a marriage when she is immediately forced to move out (house is in your name) and take a major lifestyle hit if she no longer wants to be your (real world) wife. "You could kid out your own kids?" - More sham thinking, your kids are welcome to stay (and would probably be better off without her until she straightens herself out and starts looking after their best interests). You can use all the divorce lawyer money you're saving and use it hire a hot French nanny and a lawyer that specializes in Child Custody. This is much superior to having a judge ordering you to live in a hovel in grinding poverty while you are forced to pay for the lawyer trying to take your kids away from you. And all you had to do to accomplish this was decide to have real marriage instead of a paper one, and skip a glorified prom. It's beautiful ceremony, I grant you, and it does suck to lose it, but it's usually not worth the 50k price tag (for a party) anyway.

When she gets to sip mimosas with her friends in the house YOU paid for, it's a lot easier for them to ignore how wrong it is, and give her endless "you go girl" platitudes. When SHE is the one living in a hovel grinding poverty (instead of you), it's a lot harder for everyone to pretend it's not bad for the kids. And herself. Instead of congratulating her, they'll soberly advise he how important it is to get back together. It didn't take much, and you've already avoided a huge portion of the modern forces tearing families apart.

[monsquid]

At 33 I just don't have the desire for games, extended texting, gimmicks, and going out to bars to pull etc...

I want to adopt a more mature direct masculine presence with women that I am interested in. I'm also looking for a mini relationship or LTR, not just a bang. How do I change my mindset without getting poisoned by frustration and cynicism?

[Dalaran1991]

(03-15-2018 09:19 AM)monsquid Wrote:  

At 33 I just don't have the desire for games, extended texting, gimmicks, and going out to bars to pull etc...

I want to adopt a more mature direct masculine presence with women that I am interested in. I'm also looking for a mini relationship or LTR, not just a bang. How do I change my mindset without getting poisoned by frustration and cynicism?

I feel you but this is not too much different than a fat girl saying she doesnt want to put in the work to slim down just to enjoy the company of quality men.

This whole idea of game is very simple: either you possess a lot of value, or convince the girl that you have a lot of value. Keep in mind though that girls' value system is not the same as us men.

At 33 if you've done right you should have accumulated a lot of values, so simply by existing and presenting yourself correctly to women you should have no trouble. If you still aren't of high value, tough luck, no magic bullet except putting in the work.

The closest you can come to a cheat code regarding girls is simply moving to a place where your value as a man is higher (or easier to fake).

[MJP1]

Women are a blank slate. They take life one day at a time with little regard for future planning. If you've forged yourself into a worthy stud (in the traditional sense of the word) then they're going to start misplacing their birth control while never really understanding why. A week later they're pregnant and desperate to get married. 9 months later they're (hopefully) married and they have their first child.

And each day they're going to wake up a prisoner of their cumulative circumstances, never really drawing a line from where they've been to where they are now and by deduction where they are heading. You will notice that they only care about future planning when they don't have a figure of authority to tell them what to do and when to do it, and in any case they hate that responsibility. It makes them miserable.

What makes a marriage work is that she must be able to see you as a master, not only over her but over your own destiny (and that of your family by extension).

Money is only relevant if you possess it as a vehicle to drive your dominance in the world. A big house is meaningless if your maid scalds you to keep your feet off the couch and you meekly comply.

I would say that searching for a submissive woman is everything, if you are a man to be submitted to. Submission is far more prevalent in youth (for women) which presents another example of why younger is better.

As I keep hammering away at in the LTR thread. You're better off with an 18 year old 6 than a 30 year old 8.
[/quote]

These lines are GOLD from Leonard D Neubache. Thank you for insights.