Quote: (12-15-2017 11:37 AM)Samseau Wrote:
The devs at Monero seem to be the smartest of the bunch. They are keeping Satoshi's vision for private decentralized banking by focusing on making the code of the Blockchain as efficient as possible instead of the shitty workarounds other coins make to their chains or miners.
Oh, sharding is a shitty workaround? Do tell us why.
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Btw it's not just internet speed. It's also the capabilities of the computers that work as nodes (verifying transactions). Running a full node means you have to download the entire blockchain, which often runs in the 10GB range. I think Bitcoin is already 25GB and it's had an exponential growth. If it keeps up, only people with TBs worth of free space and the processing power for it will be able to run a node. Keep it up and at some point it'll only be large entities that can run a node.
Monero devs are on it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments...y_84_with/
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Basically. Thus, it could be that for the March fork we get single-output bulletproofs and for the September fork multi-output bulletproofs. For a typical transaction (2 ins + 2 outs), single-output bulletproofs translate to a ~85% reduction in transaction size, whereas multi-output bulletproofs translate to a ~90% reduction in transaction size.
Very misleading. Monera transactions are ~12kB in size, compared to ~600B for Bitcoin. In other words, Monero transactions are already 20x the size of Bitcoin transactions. Reducing them from ~85 to 90% means Monero transactions will still be 2-3 times larger.
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Another thing I forgot to mention is that Monero block sizes are prevented from increasing more than a certain amount to keep things fair for the miners.
So the block sizes increase evenly over time, not simply just making one block huge and the rest small.
https://getmonero.org/resources/monerope...ility.html
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Monero has no hardcoded maximum block size, which means that unlike Bitcoin it does not have a 1 MB block size limit preventing scaling. However, a block reward penalty mechanism is built into the protocol to avoid a too excessive block size increase: The new block's size (NBS) is compared to the median size M100 of the last 100 blocks. If NBS>M100, the block reward gets reduced in quadratic dependency of how much NBS exceeds M100. E.g. if NBS is [10%, 50%, 80%, 100%] greater than M100, the nominal block reward gets reduced by [1%, 25%, 64%, 100%]. Generally, blocks greater than 2*M100 are not allowed, and blocks <= 60kB are always free of any block reward penalties.
Implementing this in code would take at most 20 lines. It's something a freshman in Computer Science could write. The logic is extremely straightforward. So I'll ask the question again: if scaling was really that simple, why haven't other blockchains done this yet?
And the answer is because it won't work. Your block size is limited by the median of the last 100 blocks. So you can't adjust if you suddenly have a huge number of transactions that need to be processed (for example during holiday shopping times).
Imagine your average block size is running around 100 transactions per minute. What do you think happens if there's a sudden surge in transactions? Say it unexpectedly goes up from 100 to 10,000 per minute. Since blocks with more than 200 transactions per minute get rejected, the next 50 blocks are going to be 200 transactions per minute. Then finally when the median hits 200, you can now have blocks with 400 transactions per minute. You have to keep doing this, waiting for at least 50 new blocks with maximum transactions (2*M100) to be created, before you can double again.
That's not a scalability solution, that's a scalability disaster waiting to happen.
Quote: (12-16-2017 03:28 PM)[email protected] Wrote:
Monero seems like they figured out scaling.
It hasn't. No project out there has figured out scaling. Any project claiming to is flat out lying (either to themselves or their investors/token holders).
Ethereum can process ~1.2 million transactions per day (
https://etherscan.io/chart/tx)
Bitcoin can process ~400k transactions per day (
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transac...mespan=all)
Bitcoin Cash (in theory) should be able to do ~3.2 million transactions per day.
Scaling, at the level people want in order to compete with Visa and do smart contracts, would require 50k transactions per minute, or a whopping 72 million transactions per day. We're at least 2 orders of magnitude off, and that's a minimum.
How many transactions does Monero do per day?
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/mon...tions.html
~10k transactions per day.
Monero transaction costs:
https://www.monero.how/monero-transaction-fees
Monero (median) ~ $5
Bitcoin (median) ~ $77
(snapshot of when I looked at the website, it updates constantly for the last 100 transactions)
So Bitcoin does ~40x more transactions per day, but "only" costs 15x more.
Monero better hope their network doesn't scale too much in the next year, before they reduce their transaction size. If Monero does anywhere near the same number of transactions as Ethereum or Bitcoin, you're looking at average fees in the 100s of dollars.
From a purely point of curiosity, I'd love to see what would happen in such a scenario. Maybe, just maybe projects like Ethereum (and others) are working on the scalability problem because they realize there's a tradeoff between efficiency and privacy (why Monero transaction sizes are so large) - so you're better off solving the scalability problem before increasing the size of your transaction by a factor of 10 or even 100 for quantum-resistant algorithms in order to get privacy. Btw I think everyone is unanimous about eventually having all private transactions. Bitcoin and Ethereum will be dead-in-the-water if they don't reach that point. But scale first, then make your transactions larger because of privacy. Monero is approaching the problem from the other side: fix privacy first and then scale. That may end up biting them in the ass if their network scales too fast.
Also from:
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@dragosroua/...o-it-seems
https://www.monero.how/monero-transaction-fees
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Note that to support "microtransactions", Bitcoin and Monero are likely to support systems like the "Lightning network" in order to radically reduce the cost of small payments in the future.
I'm getting more and more convinced a major component of 'the' solution will end up being on-chain scalability, something Vitalik Buterin and Ethereum have taken the lead on with sharding.